Understanding the Power of PR for the Trans+ community with Aby Hawker

[00:00:07] Hi and welcome back to Transvox and someone I've wanted to talk to for ages is sitting in front of me resplendent. Resplendent, I've just realised the video's on. I was going to say resplendent a pair of cat ears but sadly we all know you're not. So it's a joy to meet and talk to Aby Hawker. Hi Aby. Hello Gillian, it's very nice to be here. And where in the world are you?

[00:00:32] I'm actually in sunny Stratford-on-Avon. I say it's sunny, the sun's going down but yeah there's definitely a chink of gold coming from the sky. That sounds quite, in Stratford that was a beautiful piece of lyricism I would say so that's very good. Look tell us a bit about yourself. You're an extraordinarily famous person but for the three people on the planet that haven't heard of you, tell me a little bit about yourself.

[00:00:54] Don't see me out too much, oh my goodness. I'm not famous at all. I run a PR agency that specialises in trans and non-binary inclusion and awareness.

[00:01:07] So I basically have been in PR for 25 years and during that time I've worked for anyone and everyone from exciting clients like British Airways and Durex to less exciting clients like Aggregates and Roofing which was a particular highlight of my career. And yeah probably about coming up for a decade ago I met someone you had on your podcast recently actually.

[00:01:35] I listened to the episode and I enjoyed that very much with Dr Helen Weatherly. So I met Helen when I was working on a different client with her. We were both working for a pharmacy client and she called me up one day and she said oh I'm thinking of starting up this service. Do you fancy coming and helping me because I think we might have some challenges from the PR perspective. And she said she was launching a service to help trans and non-binary people access the healthcare that they need.

[00:02:03] And I thought yeah sounds cool. Didn't know anything about anything apart from there was a lady who lived on our road when I was in Leamington who used to walk past resplendent in her Sunday bed. And I didn't know anyone who was trans but I thought it would be interesting.

[00:02:22] I thought I could take everything that I knew from working on these really big exciting brands and just take that skill and channel it into something a bit more worthwhile and a bit more meaty if you like. And I absolutely loved it. I started working at GenderGP. Spent six years there and it was just transformed my life if I'm completely honest. I've always loved PR. I think it's a brilliant discipline.

[00:02:51] And it took me from doing something that I really loved and that I was good at and then added the final piece of the puzzle which was to do it in a way which actually tried to make some tiny bit of difference to something a bit more important than flogging some seats on an aircraft or selling some condoms which is important. I like the way you correlated Lange and Condons because there's quite a familiar shape going on there and I must admit in my mental image was very poor.

[00:03:21] Now for those people who think PR is a voting system could you just unpack what PR is for some people? Yeah of course it is one of those things that people think is black magic. So PR is basically looking after relationships whoever that relationship might be with. But if you're an organisation if you're an individual you would come into contact with lots of different stakeholder groups. People who are important to your business. People who are important to your reputation.

[00:03:51] And my job as a PR practitioner is to try to facilitate those relationships. Make them better. Make them stronger. Have conversations to help with understanding. Provide useful information. I see myself very much as I get a lot of pleasure from being in service. So doing stuff to help people to move things along.

[00:04:21] It sounds super worthy. It's not worthy at all. I just mean in the sense of something he's doing. I like taking things off my list. I like doing things to try to where there was possibly a bit of a challenge. Break down that barrier and to use language to clarify maybe a complex topic or something where there's some misunderstanding. Coming in and helping to shed some light and make things easier to understand.

[00:04:50] The role of PR is to look after relationships. So that's what I do. It's always funny asking a PR person what PR is. And they always say it's to simplify things. But in such a way no one knows what it is at the end of it. But then we in marketing all say that about PR people. But I think one of the classic things in marketing used to say that a squirrel was a rat with a big fairy tail and a good PR agent. So that's what it's all about, isn't it? And a lot of PR is about communicating a really interesting image. But it's also about brand defense and when thing goes wrong.

[00:05:19] Yeah, there's a lot of that, definitely. And for a community like ours under threat, actually PR is something that is really something that can pull a community together and actually get some messages out of there. Which is really why what you're doing is so important, isn't it? That's absolutely essential right now. Yeah, it's always been important. But with the narratives that are coming out, especially from the UK, but obviously also from the US and yeah, it's tricky times.

[00:05:48] And the playbook at the minute appears to be say something really outrageous and get a load of press coverage. And then those headlines start to dictate the narrative, whether there's any truth to it or not. And that's a really scary place to be. So from our perspective, it's very much about trying to add some sense, add some counterbalance to that misinformation.

[00:06:15] But when the media is not interested in listening to that violence, it becomes quite challenging. So at the minute, yeah, we've definitely got our hands full. But it's a legitimate strategy, isn't it, to say the wildest things and such, because really what's being said is a dead cat, isn't it? It's that classic thing. You've got a problem on your table. You've got this massive issue. You put a dead cat on the table and everyone says, look at the dead cat. And we know in the States, every time the word transgender is used, Elon Musk grabs another government department.

[00:06:42] So we've become a handy sort of scapegoat for distraction and let's find people to hate. It's quite straightforward. And I was listening to a programme in the British press this morning, a sports programme about the news today that trans athletes won't be allowed into the States. And people are saying, quite right, trans athletes are just men. There's no such thing. People are biological sex, not anything else. Because that's what Sharon Davies says. And people have just such a loose grasp on this whole subject area. And I think that's part of our problem, isn't it? We don't have a position.

[00:07:11] We've not really as a sort of community got together and said, so what is our message? And I think it's a challenge, isn't it? Because we're... It's a huge challenge. Do you know what the challenge is? Go on. The challenge is that the opposition, if you like, can boil down the argument into really simplistic, whether it's true or not is irrelevant, but into really simplistic terms that the person on the street can understand without having to stretch their brain.

[00:07:40] And we don't have a sufficiently clever counter argument to be able to shut that down because it's complex. You cannot explain something as complex as gender or gender experience or transition in a soundbite because it's just not a simple concept. There's so much to it.

[00:08:33] to say that we're not suffering from global warming as we see that the world's on fire. And he's, oh, don't look that way. This kind of, oh, look, there's a trans person. It's part of the same argument. And I think if a logical human being can see what he's doing with his environmental arguments, it's just transferring the same thing across to gender and to gender identity and kind of to the trans community. But you've said something really interesting there, haven't you? You've said it's really complex.

[00:09:02] And maybe that's part of our problem here. Maybe it's simple. And we're making it complicated. And we're making it complex. And when I go and talk to organisations and they'll sit down after a very short amount of time and say, oh, it's nothing really, is it? And it's trans numbers are like half a percent or something. And we seem as we're everywhere. But it's simple, isn't it? Because the more noticeable we're being made, the easier it is to understand what it is.

[00:09:27] And whether it's the old idea that you're born in the wrong body because people bought that and didn't have a problem with that through to whatever it might be. I just wonder if we should change the paradigm and start saying, actually, it's simple. We just haven't fixed on what that simplicity is. Yeah, maybe. I think it's simple because I'm quite a simple human being. I deal in quite simple, straightforward terms. I'm not a scientist.

[00:09:50] I boil stuff down to make it accessible and understandable to me and to the end listener. And as far as I'm concerned, humans are diverse. And that's enough of a response. Humans are different. Humans are diverse. And as a result, we get all kinds of variation in life. But when you have a counter group who are pushing out very strong, very simplistic, very binary messaging,

[00:10:19] that's what's complicated, shutting that down, trying to counter back. It's not the concept of gender diversity that's complex. It's the ability to have arguments to shut down the very simplistic kind of arguments that are based in no science or fact that are pushed out by the opposition. That's what's hard. That's what we need to really.

[00:10:45] One of the things that's always intrigued me is the anti-trans side of the argument, which is that we need to protect women. We need to protect girls. We need to. We have to create a sense that all women are vulnerable. All women are delicate. All women are frail. They can't look after themselves. They have no agency. They have no voice. They should be locked up in the house. They should be kept in having children. If you're not having children, you're not a real woman, which begs the question. If you're a cisgendered woman, you don't have children. Does that mean you're not a real woman? Yeah. There's all that stuff that's going on.

[00:11:13] What I find perplexing is that the feminist argument doesn't seem to get that either, because feminism in this world is making themselves weak. And it's a sort of a bizarre, peculiar paradox they've created for themselves, because they're basically saying women have got agency and at the same time, but we're vulnerable, we need to be protected. Yeah, but it's a nonsense, isn't it? And ultimately, it's just a small group of very loud people who are putting out a range of arguments that don't actually make any sense. I'm a woman. I'm a feminist.

[00:11:43] I'm not intimidated by the fact that people can be trans, people exist in all shapes and sizes. I just don't see it as a, it's a nonsense to me. The kind of things that I see being spouted by people who purport to be these leading feminists. It's just, it's not, it's a guise to spew hate and that's all it is. And it's really interesting because it is, it's an anti-man rhetoric or anti-male rhetoric.

[00:12:12] And I understand that because there's no anti-trans mask rhetoric. Because actually, when you start having a range of sized men appearing in female bathrooms in the States and they've got massive muscles and they've got big old beards going on, it's saying, I think you've got to be careful what you look for. And you have tall women who perhaps aren't the most aesthetically or traditionally feminine. They're going to be challenging cis women as well.

[00:12:33] So it's going to be, it's going to be an interesting time at the end of which, I mean, they started this in the, didn't they start this in Minnesota a few years ago saying actually a woman, in order to be a woman, you have to dress this way. But anyway, I'm just ranting and I've got to stop because I'm not doing a very professional interview because you got us to the point where you joined GenderGP. And you did some fine work there because everybody knows who GenderGP are.

[00:13:26] Yes, yes. And so I wanted to set up my own agency so that I could start to cancel those narratives from the perspective of lots of different organisations in lots of different sectors. So we work in health, a lot of healthcare, but we also do work in hospitality. We do stuff in fashion. So we work with lots of different, really interesting clients, tackling lots of really different and interesting topics.

[00:13:59] So do you have it, is it all trans stuff or is it, is it the wide LGBT thing as well? Predominantly trans. Okay. We've just got a lovely new client, which is Taylor. So they do inclusive tailoring. They're called King and Alan. And they do a lot of work with people who want to get married, but the things that they want to most closely reflect the way that they, on the most important day of their lives, they want to be seen as who they really, truly are.

[00:14:28] And there's just nothing like that on the high street. And so I'm working with them and that's much more of an LGBT audience, but predominantly trans. It's like anything, isn't it? If you are, if you operate in a very crowded market, you have to have a niche in order to, for anyone to listen to you really. And this is our particular area, but obviously because of my background, having worked in so many different areas, it's, we don't forget this stuff. We don't have them.

[00:14:58] We can apply all of those. If a trans organisation comes along to you, what's your approach? How do you begin to work together within organisations? Normally, I just, we start by trying to really understand what they're trying to achieve, what their objectives are. And then, well, I don't like working with clients that we can't help.

[00:15:21] If we can't do anything, then if we don't feel there's a real opportunity to make things better, then it tends to fizzle out, really. We have worked with clients in the past where we've done a few months and we just haven't been gaining the traction because, as I said, media relations, which is a massive part of PR, is not huge.

[00:15:43] It is closed to us to a degree when it comes to stories about organisations that work in the trans space because the media is just not interested because the stuff we're pushing out is good news. And that one is just not that appetite for good news stories around the trans community. So, yeah, it tends to be, I always see us as being merging in with the existing team. So I like to think of us, I like clients to think of us as a bit of an extension of the team.

[00:16:11] And so we work very collaboratively on lots of different areas, trying to help them to understand the business, what it is, really focusing in on what it is you're trying to achieve and how communications can help you to do that. And it could be something as simple as we need more members or people think of us as one thing when actually we do a load of other things.

[00:16:35] Or actually we need to make sure that we, I want to get in front of other support groups so that the community, so we're directly talking to the community and they can really see the kinds of things that we specialise in. So it all depends on the client, but it starts off with a conversation about what it is you're trying to achieve and how PR might be able to help you to do that. And as you said at the beginning, what even is PR? And even when I spent ages rattling on about what it is, you came out none the wiser at the end.

[00:17:06] That's what you're paying for, isn't it? That's absolutely wonderful. I know! I told you I believe wholeheartedly in the power of PR. I'm pulling your leg. I know you are. But yeah, I think that... I would say that PR is the bit of marketing where things get done. Well, that's nice. I like that. But it's more about marketing is what you pay people to think. PR is what people actually think about you. Actually think, yeah. It's the actual message that actually goes out and people see and make...

[00:17:34] And that's why it's vital, isn't it? Because you think there's lots of things in life. I always go back to Consignia and the famous rebranding of the post office that everybody thought was so terrible and you had to change the next week. And that's an example of PR going wrong, branding and such as such. So there you go. So do you tend to work with individuals? So for example, if I was thinking about at my advanced age, having a burgeoning speaking career or... I was going to say modelling, but I decided not to go down that route. I don't want to scare the masses.

[00:18:03] But if we're going to have a speaking career or do you work with organisations? Where's your sweet spot? Anyone and everyone. If I think we can make a difference, yeah, anyone and everyone. And how does your organisation work? So do you work with you all the time or do you have a team of other peeps? We have a team. We have one employee and we have a team of freelancers as well. So we can expand and contract as the client needs dictate.

[00:18:32] So yeah, I'm very hands-on. But that's just because I'm a workaholic. I was going to say a control freak, but now you said control. Also a control freak, definitely. But yeah, much to the frustration of those who live with me, I'm never very far away from my phone. And like last night, this is a brilliant example. Last night, I'm in bed looking through my phone, just scrolling on Men's Sense as you do at bedtime.

[00:18:59] And we got a request from CNN at 10.45 for an interview at 6am with one of my clients this morning. So it was last night at 10.45 that the request came in. The interview was going to be scheduled for 6am. So I was messaging, setting that up from bed at 10.45 last night and I literally put in the email, I'm about to fall asleep. So you need to make sure that you email me back within the next five minutes.

[00:19:28] So that was it. Yeah, that's quite funny. So what's interesting as well, and one of the reasons I bumped into you is that you're doing some quite interesting work on the advocacy side with helping trans people around trans health issues as well. And because there are, it may not be obvious to a lot of trans people, but there's a heck of a lot of work going on behind the scenes. Trouble is, it's behind the scenes, but there's a lot of lobbying research going on. And I saw you as an active part of that. That's where we bumped into each other.

[00:19:53] And you probably can't say much about that piece of work that's going on there. But can you say something about what's going on behind the scenes? Because I think there's a, because it's not front and centre, we don't see it. But that doesn't mean nothing's going on, does it? Yeah, I think it's amazing, actually. Often I chat with them. My husband sometimes gets disillusioned with the world and kind of the youngsters. And he's always saying, well, why are they not involved?

[00:20:21] I never see anyone doing anything for the betterment of humanity. And that's not my experience of life at all. And it's probably partly why I'm addicted to working in this space, because I'm working with people who really give a shit about supporting each other. And it's not utopia, and I appreciate there's plenty of inviting, there's plenty of people that don't get involved.

[00:20:50] But there are also so many people who care, so many people who go above and beyond, as really give their time, give their energy, give their love to try to make things better. And I just think that it's such a beautiful community to be part of, even though I'm not trans, I feel like an honorary member sometimes.

[00:21:16] And I just think it's really heartening to work in a space where I know people care about each other. Yeah. And that they want to make a change. So please don't ever feel that there's not stuff going on behind the scenes, because there genuinely is. And that's interesting, isn't it? Because actually the opposite problem is true, isn't it? There's tons going on behind the scenes, but it doesn't always join up together. So there's lots of buggles and pockets. That's the main challenge.

[00:21:42] The main challenge is, yeah, the cohesiveness or the lack of cohesiveness in it all. But people want to help and they want to move at their own speed and do their own thing. So you only can... Yeah, and when you do join, that's the other challenge, isn't it? Like any committee, you need people to actually put time into it. And everyone's got other jobs. So it gets really, really hard because, you know, you'll make some progress and then you'll get a new client on, which is fantastic.

[00:22:11] I love new clients, but it'll mean I won't necessarily have the time to dedicate to that kind of pro bono stuff. Yes. For a little bit. So you back off and then that work doesn't get done or somebody else is. And that's a real challenge because that's why you need budget. That's why you need money. Because when you've got the money to commit to it, people say, listen, can you spend a couple of days on this? Here's some money. You're going to get the time and that and divided attention because you're a priority for them because you're a client.

[00:22:41] Yeah, I was thinking exactly the same thing. It's always been my criticism of some of the stuff that goes on. And I was just thinking, why don't we just start a GoFundMe this afternoon and just talk to any trans person who's out there. If you're going to afford a fiver, chuck it in. There's supposed to be, what is that, 116,000 of us? Everyone put a fiver in. We'd really be able to get some PR going because a lot of the problem here is we can't pay for lobbying and we can't pay for influence in government and such like.

[00:23:05] And sometimes I think, so I tell you what, you and I will talk about this afterwards about doing a GoFundMe or something along those lines. And any trans person that wants to can donate through us or donate through that or whatever. So news to follow because my ideas and good looks and your action might make this happen. It's just a stunning way to direct that. I'll edit that bit. So don't worry. Yeah, it's just understanding what focus.

[00:23:35] If you had a million pounds, you woke up tomorrow, you had a million pounds gifted to you by somebody who said to you, I want this to be focused on changing the narrative for trans people. It is a huge job. I do this every day of my life and I've been doing it for 10 years almost. And I don't believe we've even made a dent. However, there's one aspect of PR in our community, which is even more problematical, I think, because I think the case of trans masculine, trans femme is quite straightforward. But we haven't talked agender.

[00:24:05] We haven't talked intersex. And most importantly, in a way, we haven't talked non-binary because that's a thing that for me is a real issue in terms of boiling down and explaining. So that that group of people gets some proper agency in the world. So what's the question? Just a comment, really. Feel free to disagree or agree. I think it's all part of the same thing. It's about understanding that life isn't bloody binary.

[00:24:31] And anyone can experience life and their world in the way that they experience it. And it's not our job as cis-heteronormative, through our cis-heteronormative lens, to determine what someone can and can't be. I think that's what's vomit-inducing, from listening to Trump and the broligarchs up on their stage saying trans people don't exist. We only have to assess who? You know.

[00:24:57] I just think it's crazy to have that platform and to be spewing that kind of messaging. There's going to be more of it. I think we just have to get ready and wrap up. He doesn't get a third term. He's talking about trying to change the law. Oh, yeah. Well, he's also talking about having a dynasty, isn't he? So he can't wait for that. I'll be next. Then there'll be a reality television programme. Oh, it's called The News. Look, it's been a joy to talk. How do people get hold of you? Oh, we're everywhere.

[00:25:27] The website is transmissionpr.com. And we are on Instagram. We're still on X. I don't use X much other than to look at journo requests. But I'm on X on transmpr. Because transmission PR was already taken. LinkedIn, Abby Hawker. Yeah, you can find me on most platforms. You're surprised if we couldn't. That was really joy.

[00:25:55] You keep doing the work, fighting the fight and supporting our community. I think it's absolutely brilliant, the work you do. Thanks ever so much. Very welcome. You take care. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.

[00:26:24] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So please, if you can, give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.

[00:26:51] But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to gillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.