Transvox - Why do the right wing seem to hate trans+ people so much?

[00:00:07] Hi and welcome back to Transvox and it's a beautiful day, it's a beautiful weekend and in front of me is Jenny. I was going to say beautiful Jenny, I knew you'd be offended by that Jenny. Yeah you can't lie, you can't lie in this post-truth world but I'm happy to be here Gill, anyway it's good to see you. I tell you what though, I had a thought this week and I was doing a thinking because I've been playing with Perplexity and Deep Seek and Chachi BT and I thought it would be an interesting experiment to put into all the big AI

[00:00:37] search engines. A sort of rumination I've been having, I was quite intrigued why all of these right wing governments are so obsessed with trans peoples and they look at what's happening in the States and Hungary and Eastern European countries. Russia is irrelevant because Russia's against anything, it's not them really but... Or Ontario isn't it? Yeah it's a very different thing. But even reform in the UK and all this sort of stuff.

[00:01:03] So I thought what we could do is have a little bit of a chat about this and see if what the collective AI wisdom is coming up with seems to ring true or obviously there's another conversation around what does this mean and what do we do about it and maybe that's the next episode.

[00:01:18] But we've got about 10 points that we can talk over. None of us knew but the response comes back somewhere along the lines, the right wing opposition to trans people is complex, good and varies by group, ideology and country. However, some common reasons include. So I might work through these, Jen, if you fancy commenting as we go. Yes, definitely. I think it's interesting. It is.

[00:01:40] It was almost a given that the sovereignty of the small c politics or round-room politics is probably not going to be positive towards LGBTQ plus people as a whole and certainly focusing on trans. I mean, it is notable in the UK we have some of the left who have been anti-trans and that's coming, I think, from a different place. But I don't think that's typical around the world. I think that's perhaps typical of UK, an element of UK feminist politics from the 80s.

[00:02:08] You're JK Rowling, you're Kathleen Stock, you're Junie Bindle, et al. But I think I don't think that's typical around the world. I think if you look around the world, it is generally right wing, conservative authorities that seem to want to attack us. Yeah. And to be fair, maybe I'll put this in about the left as well, because there are different reasons. And actually, oddly enough, there's no reference to anything to do with feminism in here. So obviously, this is limited about.

[00:02:33] It's just turf comes from that, doesn't it? Trans is really radical feminist. Yes. Yeah, no, I think it's an interesting subject, really, because in many ways, it shouldn't be a given, should it? But it seems to be. And I think this is a lot to do with the right wing in a sense is often to do with social conservatism. So you can be fiscally conservative or fiscally left wing as well. But this is more about social right wing views.

[00:02:56] And of course, the first one which pops out is tradition, whether it be traditional values, traditional ways of thinking, traditional views about gender, seeing it being fixed and binary. And that trans identity is challenge and norms. And of course, the challenging of any norm is seen as a threat of traditional values. And I think that makes sense. The name conservative party, when you hear people like Rory Stewart talking about, is about actually how do you conserve the past?

[00:03:22] How do you cherish what we had? Yeah. And so that does make sense in a way, doesn't it? It does. But if you think about it, it is interesting that because that's what these traditional values, but traditional values are social constructs in themselves. Right. So a lot of the traditional values in this country that you'd see would probably stem from Victorian era, perhaps, where there was that puritanical approach. And I'm not saying it's quite like that now, but the harking back, it all stems from that.

[00:03:52] Because what are traditional family values? Because the idea, for instance, that idea that sex is binary and there are only two sexes, I always say is a, I would argue, quite a Western European concept. Because around the world, different cultures have different approaches to gender. I actually think we're catching up. So traditionally, in Native American cultures, they have third genders. So it's their tradition.

[00:04:15] So I think when we say it's traditional values, it's traditional Western European, Judeo-Christian values of the last couple of centuries, really, maybe. Wouldn't you say? I think they all talk about tradition, but tradition is only a, in a sense, a snapshot of where your society is at. But I can see how it feeds back into that idea that, I don't know, I don't even really understand the idea that things were so much better back then. That's where we need to hark back to.

[00:04:45] It's good. It's very interesting, isn't it? It's interesting that you talk about the idea of tradition and where tradition comes from and the idea of the third gender. And I was quite intrigued to, when you're talking about Western values, it was quite interesting to have a look at some Eastern values. And I was just looking at India and they have a transgender people are seen as the third gender. Yeah. That was quite an interesting way of thinking about it, wasn't it?

[00:05:07] I'm going to say Western, I'm sort of a Western European, because I say in Native America, in South Pacific Islands, through sort of India and some cultures in Africa. The idea that gender is fixed or gender is just two genders, it's just the thing that everybody in the UK, for instance, up until the last dozen years, since education changed a little, has been brought up being told as boys and girls and nothing else. Right. It's what I was taught at school.

[00:05:35] So is it when they're harking back and saying that's a traditional thing and a traditional family? I would argue that does anybody really think a traditional family now is a mum and dad and 2.4 children? A cisgendered mum and a cisgendered dad. We've had same-sex parents adopting and families and surrogate families and all sorts for years now and nobody really thinks it's that strange. I think this is where that tradition that those people want to keep hold of, out of fear of change.

[00:06:03] Yeah. And I think the word traditional is probably an issue here because maybe it's generational. Because actually, I talk to people who do see that the definition of a family is exactly what you're describing. We're always harking back. Yeah. We never seem to be creating new traditions, are we? No, we often hark back because... And the thing is that the things that we saw were radical when we were young are things which are completely infradigna because they're part of the fabric of what's... And that's the nature of social change, isn't it? But we do have a sort of thing in our country which is based around class.

[00:06:31] It comes very heavily from the idea of empire. And I think we have a nostalgic view when our country was great, which is the thing which happens to countries, isn't it? When they were great and their reputation somewhat diminished. I think we'll see it in the American empire soon. You're right. But as I say, it's always when we're great for some people. They were great for the majority with the power and influence, but were they great for all? Of course not. Our community, gay, lesbian, trans, bisexual people have been around as long as people have been around.

[00:07:01] So it might have been great when we were all having to be pushed into the shadows. It wasn't great for us. It was just a great... For that majority with the power. Yeah. In America, they all hark back to the 50s. What the hell was racism like and segregation like in the 50s? It might have been great if you were... You might have been prospering post-war if you were white and had money and so forth. And the consumers. It's always been about...

[00:07:27] When you talk about tradition, it's always been about being set by the people in power. Has it not? So we need to make new traditions. We do. And of course, what will happen is in 30 years' time, people will be looking back in this period and thinking, all these people were so square man, all that sort of stuff. If you think about the 60s and the rise of the contraceptives pill, that absolutely shook up social mores and norms. And that's actually the case. I think it's part of normal change.

[00:07:56] I think what in some countries is this struggle between white male supremacy and privilege and the degree to which perception is it's been lost either through immigration or through female rights or whatever it is. And people tend to cling on to the power they have and they very much resent what they're losing. And I think part of that comes down to... And I know religion and church is a different thing. But the second thing on this list is religious beliefs. And they talk about a lot of religious beliefs, especially religious conservatism,

[00:08:26] sort of talks about gender being determined by God and reject the idea of gender fluidity or transitioning as being unnatural or sinful. And I don't think anything... I think we should avoid any mention of the abortion word or anything to do with those sorts of things. But just stick to the thing. But as soon as you say that, yeah, religious conservatives, but not all religious conservatives.

[00:08:50] There's no doubt that Buddhism has a completely zero position, non-position on transgenderism. But certainly some of the Western American churches are highly suspicious of us. Yeah, I think Buddhism is more of a faith necessarily than an organized religion. But yeah, those organized religions that state that, the logic falls apart. Because if we are made in God's image or whatever, we exist. Therefore, God has said, I'm a trans woman.

[00:09:18] And if I don't believe in God, but if there was a God that created me, that created me as trans, right? Same as being a gay. It doesn't make... The logic falls apart. The idea that that was the case. And obviously there's lots of misinterpretations on... Religion wants to misinterpret... They'll say in the Bible that it says it's sinful to be gay. But they won't harp on about... There's parts of the Bible that said you shouldn't wear mixed fabrics or other stuff that's in there. They'll pick and choose those bits.

[00:09:47] There's parts of the Bible, I think, in the Old Testament talk about it's okay to own slaves. Don't talk about that. It's all nonsense. So it's pick and choosing, isn't it? The idea of... To me, I'm not a... I guess I'm not religious. I don't believe in God. I'm pretty agnostic. I'm agnostic, right? But I was brought up with sort of Christian teachings. And a lot of them seem quite groovy to me about the stuff that turn the other cheek, caring for each other, all that sort of stuff about religion. I'm all tied into the morals.

[00:10:17] And I think a lot of these religious people, for instance, these Christian people who hate us or hate lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people are not Christians because the Bible says we should love each other. And they're not loving each other. They're not loving us. So I don't believe there's that bit. I think it's the organized religions, as you said, and particularly in the U.S. you see it. But in Russia as well, they've used religious religion to justify their hatred of our community or Putin hats.

[00:10:44] So it isn't just the Western parts of the world that do that. But I've got a friend, Adam, who I work with, who, you know, I was talking the other day with him about his sexuality and his religion being brought up a Catholic. And he's found a church that he's accepting. He's found a way. And he says, God loves me. That's what he believes. So how on earth can he not love me if I'm gay? That's crazy.

[00:11:14] I don't know about you, Jill. I don't know. I don't know, in a sense, what your view is on faith and religion personally. But I just found it really hard to understand it because it doesn't seem rational to me that religion can tell you you should say these people are wrong. Yes. Well, yes. There's a lot of contrary opinions. Let's say contrary rather than hypocrisy in religion. So let's just say that.

[00:11:40] But it makes sense that this hiding behind God's word, where it works for you is interesting. Interesting. And what you have is, I think it's the Abrahamic tradition, isn't it? Yeah. And the Mohammedan. And it is Western religions that are like this. And it's interesting when you look at the Eastern religions, even Taoism and such a place like that. They have no views on transgender people at all or LGBT people on the whole.

[00:12:08] The political, the politicization of religion actually changes religious beliefs. And I think that's probably part of it. And often there's a strange interplay between religion and politics, isn't it? And having mentioned that, of course, we come to political strategy. And what we see loads of times is this idea of using trans issues as a wedge to rally the base. They talk about trans rights as a threat to women's spaces, children, societal stability.

[00:12:37] And it really is a political thing to mobilize voters. And, of course, what in the States is this political and religious strategy coming together really is a way to get to women's rights. And they're coming through by able to change the laws on LGBT rights. So firstly, trans rights. That's the way to get through and change the laws to get to women's rights. And this is very clear in Project 2025. It's absolutely written out in full, glorious. I was going to say technical. I was going to say black and white.

[00:13:06] But it's there. So this is not a surprise. The Americans said they're going to do this and they're doing it. And this coalescent of religion, politics is really quite alarming, but also very powerful as well. Definitely. But the right have always done this. So it was people of color. It's immigrants. It's strangers. You can find that minority to use to scare the majority. And that's what they're doing. They're definitely trying to.

[00:13:31] It's the weirdest thing, really, to try and paint trans people as some sort of threat to anything or anybody. With one of the smallest communities, less than 1% of the population. And absolutely no threat to anybody else's lives. But the whole ethos is to paint us as in some way a threat, whether it's being referred to single-sex spaces. I'll have to use the phrase women and children.

[00:13:57] Absolutely no evidence anywhere of trans people being accepted, fully accepted, being any threat to anybody else. Far from it. We're the people that are often at risk. But it's very easy when you're a very small minority to rile and find that as a distraction from other issues. Right? But it's always been the case. And it's immigrants and trans people at the moment. So the whole world, Trump and this country as well, 70 part in this country are trying to tell everybody in the country,

[00:14:26] your problems, the fact you can't afford to pay for your groceries, the fact your life seems tough, that public services aren't working, has to do with these immigrants and these trans people. Right? It's absolutely crazy. But they're trying to distract people. And they've overwhelmed the news agenda with this stuff. And it's crazy. And you're right about America. But I don't think we've been immune to it in this country. And what I think we'd argue in this country is it's not even linked to the religious aspects like it's been done in America, like you just talked about.

[00:14:56] But the fact that the Tory party chose to weaponise trans issues and did was a political strategy just born out of they want to do it. They're not trying to link it to religion. That's not what Rishi Sunak did when he stood up and did his speech to conference and got the biggest cheer just by saying, we will not be bullied into using people's pronouns. It is out and out bullying of a small community to just pander to a population that might be,

[00:15:25] and I don't blame it, not that the whole population is ignorant, but just might not understand trans people. Right? And it is a complete distraction as well. Yeah. We're affecting, in the big picture, we are not affecting anybody else's lives, other than maybe the people we love and the people we live with. Nobody else is affected by a trans person in any way whatsoever. For it to be a political issue on that basis is nuts. It makes even less sense than the religious issue.

[00:15:53] If you, I don't know, if you really truly believe religious, I don't know. But it is just cynical. It is cynical in the extreme, really. The interesting thing about all of this stuff, especially, and it's interesting, particularly in the States where they measure these things a bit more than other places, but there's a measurement about, there's a regular count about abuse, murders, sexual harm,

[00:16:18] and the amount committed by trans and drag people, and it's virtually nothing. And then you look at the amount committed by religious people, and I don't mean people who are religious, people who are in a position of authority through religion, pastors, priests, whatever it might be. And it's huge. And of course, so one of the things I think the religious community are doing is they're using us as, again, that sort of wedge issue to distract against their own misdemeanors.

[00:16:44] And of course, this information of fear mongering is, you know, it's really interesting. There's a thing called social pain. And one of those pieces of social pain is this idea of are you in an in-group or an out-group? And of course, putting us in an out-group makes us different. It makes us not part of the in-group, which means that people can fear us. We can be weaponized. And the more we can become part of that in-group, the better. And that's why we're seen as dangerous or mentally ill, all part of this woke agenda.

[00:17:13] That's here to undermine society. So everybody that's woke is, you know, is not in the in-group. They're all in the out-group. And so what happens is the in-group become tighter and tighter and more and more possessive and more and more resistant to being infected almost. And this is a, this is the form of extreme communism and extreme fascism. It's really the playbook. It goes back to Roman times and not, not even.

[00:17:41] And if you look at some of the works, the Stoics and things that they're talking about, this is not a new thing. It's just that we happen to be the focus of it this time around. I think, I think why we have such an easy target, I think it's because I was thinking about this because we are a tiny percentage of the population, right? Right. But the amount of, because there was that very quick raising awareness as trans people was literally some, in the space of 15 years, we were suddenly in all that.

[00:18:10] There were certainly lots of stories about us and things and there was progression and we were suddenly much more visible than we'd been because we'd been in the shadows. We'd been hidden. We're suddenly very visible. There's a tiny amount of us, but so that visibility has enabled the politicians to say, oh, look at all these terrible trans people. And then you see those surveys when they ask how many trans people are there and they'll say, man, I don't know, 15% of the population or something crazy. Or even higher than that, I've seen somewhere they've said 20% of the population are trans and non-binary.

[00:18:41] They've estimated, yeah, it's less than 1%. It's less than that. It's binary trans women, for instance, are probably about 0.5% or even less than that. It's that two things that our community is really small, but we've got this, the amount of news stories written in, but there can't be any other community of the amount of stories about them has outweighed how many people there are.

[00:19:09] Every single day, papers are running stories on 1% of the population. It doesn't apply anywhere else, I can see. Yeah, it's quite amazing how much power we have. Funny if it was true. Yeah. The next thing to talk about is these are starting to overlap a little bit. This idea that trans people are part of progressive liberal policy, seeing trans left rights as part of a broader left-wing push for societal change, which therefore they resist on principle.

[00:19:37] And then some of that societal change spills over. Let's not get lost on the issue with sport, but that's true. It's this idea that if you are promoting people, giving people opportunity, that creates unfair advantages over the majority of the population. So trans women in sports, hiring people of colour to jobs, making sure women are on boardrooms. If you're from a conservative white male privilege, these things are threats.

[00:20:04] So this is opportunity for you to lose your job by someone being promoted, having opportunity not based on anything else than the fact that they're different. And I think this is a really, I mean, this is almost going back to your thoughts about dog whistling, isn't it? No, definitely. That's always the case. Those in power feel they are losing that power ever more. That's why every billionaire wants to become even richer, even though they don't need to. The fear of that change.

[00:20:30] But this is interesting about, you say, sort of politics, the politics and party politics and progressive politics. Because in many ways, in terms of party politics, certainly in this country and America, the fundamental differences on many issues between the two parties have become narrower and narrower, right? I think I would argue that politically, the government we've got in the UK, Keir Starmer's

[00:20:54] Labour government, in many ways isn't that far away from David Cameron's Conservative government in terms of a lot of economic policies and things. There's not a huge amount. Brexit aside, because that was David Cameron's big balls up. But in many ways, there isn't a huge amount of difference. It's come much narrow. We no longer have mass industrialisation against privatisation. So if that being the case, what seems to be separating the politics now?

[00:21:22] I think similarly in America with the Democrats and Republicans, in many ways, the Democrats aren't particularly left-wing in lots of ways. But what might separate them is the progress in terms of social change, right? So that becomes that issue, doesn't it? And that's suddenly woke as everything, right? The Tories are trying to paint Labour as woke. And Republicans said Kamala Harris only cared about they them.

[00:21:49] The truth is Kamala Harris taught nothing about identity politics. But that's what they're using, because they haven't got anything else. And actually, I'd argue the right haven't got any more ideas now. They've won in the... It seems to me, in many ways, they've won a lot of capitalism against socialism in many countries at the moment, right? We're all in a sort of neocon, neoliberal world. So what have they got to battle about? Let's have a fight about treating trans people well.

[00:22:19] Let's have a fight about treating immigrants well. And maybe that's it, Jill. I don't know. Maybe they've got nothing else to say. Yeah. That's nice to know, in a way. If only. Yeah. Okay, so that's fair enough. Distrust of social change. This goes back to conservatism and traditionalism. Yeah. Conservative movements tend to resist rapid societal shifts. And trans rights represent a significant cultural change that challenges traditional understanding.

[00:22:48] Now, there is something in this, because it has been very fast for some people, hasn't it? I guess so. I did a, yeah, I did a, for part of my job, I was doing this presentation on his LGBT plus history. It really started in my presentation from 67 to now. And that is within my lifetime. I was born in 68. And the change is just massive, right? The change has been fast and rapid. And I guess in today's communication age, it's more likely to be like that.

[00:23:16] With the way the internet has enabled us to understand more and see change and so forth. And maybe that is, I don't know, maybe that is frightening for people in some ways who find the pace of change difficult, find dealing with things different, difficult, find it. But I also hark back, always hark back in this country to equal marriage, which was such a fierce debate that it nearly didn't get past. And yet you very rarely hear anybody really care about us anymore.

[00:23:45] And that's a huge change that has been pretty much, I would argue, been accepted politically across the board, apart from maybe the far and in society, really. So we can cope with fast change. But I think that is always something that the right will focus on, because change can be scary. And the right, like, use fear, don't they? It's their main weapon is to make people scared. I don't know.

[00:24:13] And it's important to talk about these things. A lot of people hear this stuff and they don't understand where it's coming from. Sometimes understanding the arguments is really important. And I think that's really what we're trying to do here, is just give you some ideas about why things are being said. So you can either ignore those things which are being said or know in a way how to fight back. Maybe fight back's the wrong word, but you know where I'm coming from, that. Yeah. But I think it's been really useful just the way I'm AI. It is important to say something, though. It is.

[00:24:41] I think you started to allude to this at the very beginning. Not all conservatives, not all right wingers are anti-trans. There are people in the world who might vote Tory or even reform who are for trans rights. And I think that's important to say this, that we haven't got to. And I think a lot of the problems in the US election was the fact of the categorization that everybody who is something was something else. And I think sometimes they're false equivalences and we have to watch out for those things.

[00:25:09] I absolutely agree with you. And I'm using conservative in the more wider sense. Yeah, that's right. It's important to say that, isn't it? I mean, I've been a socialist, a trade unionist, a Labour Party member, an activist for a lot of my life. But I always remember it was a conservative government that brought in equal marriage on the back of Labour MPs, but they still did. And it was a conservative prime minister, Theresa May, who tried to make our life better. Right. And she certainly had her faults.

[00:25:38] But she proposed changes that would have made our life better. And I don't think I should lose sight of that. And we're talking about social conservative, aren't we, rather than fiscal conservative. So we're using these terms quite loosely, I think. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. In many ways, I would argue I've got more in common with somebody who's conservative thinking on a fiscal basis,

[00:26:02] but socially more liberal than I have somebody, and I have met them, somebody who's from my political background that is socially illiberal. And there are parts of our Labour movement that I've had struggles with, and still do. There are parts of our Labour movement that don't think I should really have a place. I know you know people who are socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I know that very well. Yes, I do. I speak to them regularly.

[00:26:32] I speak to them regularly. But I'll get you on the barricades at one point, Jill. Well, this is this new, you need to start looking up blue Labour, because we're going to be talking about that later in the week. And that's a fascinating area that's coming. Coming to a discussion place near you soon. I'm very tired today, so I'm running out of words. So I'm going to go and throw myself under the nozzle of a teapot and have a little slosh through. And I shall speak to you soon. But that's fascinating.

[00:27:02] And we'll do an episode soon that says, actually, how do we counter these things? We will solve it. We're going to solve it all. In half an hour, I reckon, Jill. Yeah. And we might throw some Star Trek in at the same time. Why not? Will do. Next time. Live long and prosper. See you soon, Jill. Take care. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us.

[00:27:27] If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at jillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work.

[00:27:56] Really important. So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brick baths, feel free to send it all in to Jillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.