Transvox - Understanding True Allyship: Beyond Symbolic Support

[00:00:06] Hello and welcome to Transvox and hello Jenny, how are you? I'm very well thanks, Gill, how are you? I'm alright. I'm looking out the window, it's bleak, horrible, ghastly weather. And I know you're having lovely sunshine down where you are, right? Yeah, it's not too bad in Stoke here today, but I don't know why you choose to live here in Newcastle. You know what, we have skirted around this issue a few times actually, we've talked about, we're going to talk about allies,

[00:00:33] and we've talked about someone we knew who was a great ally, a mutual friend of ours, and we've talked in other podcasts that alluded to allies, we've made reference to allies, but I don't think we've spent enough time talking about allies as a subject on its own. So I thought we could do a podcast entitled How to Be a Great Ally. And here it is. I think it's an important subject, don't you? I think, because, I think it's strange because we didn't really talk about allies

[00:01:01] these 10 years ago. Yeah, all communities I think have needed allies, and especially smaller communities. The trans community is tiny in the big scheme of things, in terms of numbers. So for us to progress, we do need people to join us on that, who may not be part of the community. So I think it is violently important that people are able to be allies, otherwise we are left very marginalised.

[00:01:28] But yeah, it's an interesting point about what makes an ally, and how you can best do that. So it does make me think, because I talk about it around a trans, and then I think, am I being an ally to other groups that are marginalised that are being oppressed? And I'm not sure I do enough. So it does make me think as well. Yeah, it's fascinating. And the term itself is usually defined as like a nation state ally, but increasingly it's been redefined as one that is associated with another as a helper, a person or a group

[00:01:57] that provides assistance and support in ongoing effort, activity or struggle. And it's been used increasingly specifically about a person supporting a marginalised group. And I think the first thing to talk about is, there's a big difference between allies who are symbolic versus allies that take action. Someone once talked to me about this idea that an ally is the sort of thing, is that if you fall over a ship, there's a lot of allies who stand and look at you in the water

[00:02:22] and applaud you for being brave in the water. And there are some allies who actually take action and throw something in or jump in after you and rescue you. And I think there's a big difference in those two things. And I think a lot of people think that the job of being an ally is to put thumbs up on Facebook or we stand with you comments in social media. But when it comes to push versus shove, that taking action is the bit that really is the bit that makes the difference, isn't it?

[00:02:47] I think you're absolutely right. And not that it's not good that people could show support if that's all they feel they can do or able to do. But actually, what we really need is people to take action. And that could be anything from support in individuals, but also being vocal and out there and expressing a view. And you can look up celebrities who are, I see as trans allies, famous people who've stuck their neck out and done something more than just

[00:03:13] saying, I support LGBTQ plus rights. They actually do that second step and actually take that step, particularly right now, knowing that they would get pushback. I mean, I just think recently of David Tennant and he's been so actively an ally. And he always wears a trans badge or quite often, I think he's got a non-binary child, I think. But also, he's been actively and he criticized

[00:03:40] Bed and Ock, didn't he, last year at an awards ceremony. And he got an award for his allyship. And he faced a lot of backlash from JK Rowling and the mass ranks of calling him all sorts of names. That to me is somebody in a position of influence actually doing more than just being supportive, I think. And I think of other people in that realm. Owen Jones, a columnist, has been specifically, I think, an ally in his writing and support that he's had criticism and push back

[00:04:10] and he's prepared to take that as has Billy Bragg. So if you want to look at the world of celebrity, it's easy to see them. Those are people I think have done something more than just be supportive. It's great for people who can just be supportive for a starter and not hateful towards us. That's the start with many people. But that's the same, I think, on an individual basis, if we're not famous, whatever, what we do. And I think about not being a bystander.

[00:04:37] When you see some inequality, when you see discrimination. And I've been thinking about that because I've been in situations recently where I know there was allies in a meeting with me, but they're not really able to come to my aid or come to our aid. There was two of us in that moment. So I think, and it's interesting to me why people sometimes feel they can't. What do you think of that? Well, I particularly come across allies who are the flag wavers and such people who are

[00:05:07] prepared to stand up and say they support us. And sometimes that's as simple as healthcare workers who are just prepared to accept who you are and create a safe space where you can go and have treatments and such. And I think sometimes we get lost in the idea of celebrity allies. Classically, Kylie, Cher, Daniel Radcliffe, Taylor Swift, which is great because you've got to have people who are powerful standing up. But sometimes I've always liked your phrase that existence is the

[00:05:33] greatest form of rebellion. And I think sometimes when if you're a health worker in a doctor's surgery and you see a trans person come in and you just make sure they're okay. And it may well be the case that there's a form of human decency that is part of this where actually people aren't thinking of themselves as allies. They're just actually doing the job. Yes. Or if you go down to a bar or something and you're with some of the people and someone starts to pick on you, somebody else might come across who's not necessarily been an ally, but just helping someone

[00:06:02] that's just finding themselves in trouble. And I think there's often a confusion between this allyship and people just being decent. And maybe there's a Venn diagram between the two things as well. It's interesting to think about that. I think you've hit us on the head. In many ways, it seems odd for us to describe being a decent human being as allies. Actually, shouldn't it be the default? The default should be we're allies to each other, whatever the protected group, whatever the minority.

[00:06:31] And the fact we have to give it this, that you're being an ally just because you're being decent, which is where we're at the moment in the UK, because there's far too many people that aren't being decent towards the trans community. So you're right, actually. In some ways, it's odd that we should use the phrase to describe people just being kind and decent and respectful. It is odd when you look at lists of social media or other things to be a great ally, respect and use

[00:06:58] correct pronouns. We don't have to be an ally to do that. It's maybe a way of just saying, I'm considering your marginalized community and therefore using pronouns. But actually, most people use pronouns anyway. And it's just a question of using the ones that are attributed to that person. It's quite odd, isn't it? Why we make such a fuss about pronouns? It is odd, but that's entirely been driven by the anti-transgender critical movement,

[00:07:24] because it's based on nothing. The amount of people that would refuse to use such pronouns is just about the amount of people that would say to you, if you said to them, my name's Jenny, and they said, no, we were going to call you something else. People just don't work like that. The idea of deliberately saying, I'm not going to respect your pronouns is making this, in my view, a political statement of saying, I don't respect trans people, and that's my politics. And I'm going to treat you in my everyday

[00:07:53] life as my politics are. And it is absolutely crazy, because if we all lived like that, if I back when I was perhaps more active in the 90s, went to somebody and they said they were a conservative voter, and I went, I'm not going to respect anything about you. It's ridiculous. You can't live your life like that. It's a political statement to refuse to do it. To just treat people and use the correct language is the default. When you've been in hospital, you

[00:08:20] always have a next-to-your-name, if you were going to be referred to as a different name, because some people go by their middle name or have a nickname, they'd always put it on the board about how somebody would want to be referred to. You wouldn't get anybody going, oh, we don't agree that's a thing. You shouldn't be able to be called something different than there's on your medical records, or something like that. It seems so odd to me. It seems so odd to go to such an effort to make somebody's life miserable on some weird political feeling that you don't think trans

[00:08:50] people should exist, which is basically... I mean, I've come across it. I've come across a couple of people in my sort of work that have refused to use language and pronouns, argued on this on a religious basis, but I just don't understand it. And I think the challenge for some people is where maybe the desire to have a set of pronouns might be different to the way that someone presents, and I think that can be challenging for people.

[00:09:20] And yes, it's all it is. It's just the same brains are wired, and you have to unwire things a little bit, but that's absolutely fine. The issue is not getting it wrong. The issue is when you deliberately try not to. My view, I think what you've been saying is I don't see that in a sense as allyship. Just that's doing the right thing. As you come across people, refer to them how they wish to be referred to. Makes no sense not to. The issue, as you said though, for the allies,

[00:09:46] because I think that isn't... I would say using somebody's correct pronouns isn't allyship. That is decent normal behaviour to treat people and speak to people how they wish to be referred to. I agree. If you said to me, you said to me I was a Geordie and I decided, no, you're not a Geordie, you're a Southerner. What's the point? It's just this silly. I think allyship should... The true allyship is that action bit, that doing beyond what should be expected. Yeah. Don't you? And isn't that what we should be aiming for?

[00:10:16] Of course. And that's why I thought it was fascinating to pull up a generic list and go through it. I think again, if you make a mistake, correct yourself and move on. Again, common sense. If someone comes back to work and they've been married and their surname's been changed, for example, which is often the case, you use the wrong surname. They say, I'm sorry, you said the right one. You try and get it right, don't you? It's normal. I think there is a slight degree of effort that's needed sometimes with non-binary people, because a lot of people do find the they them thing more taxing. And it's not just the saying,

[00:10:45] the they them words, but it's often just remembering that they're they them. And I think that's partly just down to sometimes familiarity. If you know a non-binary person, you get very used to saying they and them, and then you don't think about it. So I think that's just a question of linguistic fluency. And that, I think, is more about allyship slightly. No, I still disagree. We have to, in a sense, more get you, because we weren't using,

[00:11:11] that wasn't a thing necessarily 15 years ago, right? We've started to progress and going actually, and of course, they them has always been a singular pronoun. And I went to see the doctor. They asked me this. I showed them that. That's not, it's, it is an issue when you have a, maybe have an image of a binary trans person and the pronouns are different. But once we're aware of that, it's just a matter of us learning new things like we always do as people. We always learn

[00:11:37] language changes. The use of the word gay has changed. Lots of words change the uses. Lots of things change in some languages. I think the thing is, though, if you focus on that, I still think that's not why I refer to as allyship though, respecting a non-binary person's pronouns. I would say, maybe I would argue sharing your own pronouns if you're not trans is a show of allyship. So when, you know, cisgender people put their pronouns on their email signatures or on their, or on anything

[00:12:07] they do or share them, I think that is a step of allyship. I still think it's a relatively small one, but it is a step of allyship. I don't think respecting people is that because that should be the default. I think, sorry. I think that's interesting because actually, you know, organisations went through a phase of mandating this and I think that's a mistake. I think if you personally are an ally, it's a good idea to share your pronouns because that indicates to another person that actually you're making that

[00:12:37] indicative step. The fact that you don't share your pronouns, sorry, just the fact that you don't share your own personal pronouns doesn't mean that you're not supportive of the trans. If you refuse to insert, so I've not come across any organisations that mandate it in all honesty, whether that ever happened. I also don't have a great problem with it either. If you really, if that's all that's bothering people, then get a life. That's all. If I work for someone, look, I'm biased, aren't I? But I don't think that's a problem either. I just don't think that

[00:13:04] goes beyond allyship. I think it is almost, I think, if you choose to, so we have meetings sometimes where we share our pronouns at the start of the meeting to be inclusive in a network or in other meetings. And some people do share and some people don't. And I think, I see some people feel more awkward about it. I don't think any of them are deliberately not. So I don't again see, I think it is just getting more used to the idea of pronouns are not a given. And we can get used

[00:13:31] to that. We can change, we can learn and understand as a country, as a nation, as the way we language. The thing for me for allies though, is that step up when you are in a sense, putting yourself in maybe an awkward position, correcting people in meetings or correcting other people, which can feel awkward, I think is allyship. So if you hear somebody being, I don't want to, it's strange because we're focusing on misgendering all the time. And sometimes it needs to be more than that. But

[00:14:00] if you see somebody misgender a colleague in a meeting when they're not there, allyship, I think is to correct that person. When it can feel quite awkward to correct colleagues and friends, it can feel awkward, but you are doing something even though it makes you feel awkward to do that, to step up. The one thing that happened to me recently, Jill, and I'll be interested in your thoughts on this in a sense. I was in a meeting the other day where there was somebody that I knew,

[00:14:28] we knew that had some anti-trans views from my position, right? They'd call them trend of critical views. And these were posted within the meeting and comments and questions were made in the meeting and references were made in the chat that effectively, to my mind, referred to me and another trans woman colleague who were presented in this meeting, effectively said that this person

[00:14:52] referred to us, and I hate even saying this, as men, brackets who claim to be women. They were referring to another, they were referring to something else that was happening in the news. But the fact that they chose to not use the term trans woman, which we're using and use that term, effectively said to the whole meeting that we were, that's how we should be seen, right? Personally, I think that's pretty horrible thing to do. I did push back and I'm confident I did push back and question that.

[00:15:22] And I said, actually, I think that reaches out certain things and it's respectful. They pushed back a bit. It was left like that. It was quite a polite meeting in many ways. But I was there with a colleague having to fend off this attacks that I talked very personally about my identity. And I knew there were people in that meeting that were absolutely good allies and having conversations. But what I found interesting is none of them felt able to step in at that moment or after I'd finished speaking and say,

[00:15:49] for instance, yes, I'm not trans, but what I think that person said was offensive, inappropriate, not right. Nobody did that. And I thought about this a lot. And because I've spoken to one or two of the people who were there about it, and I don't want to criticize it because I think it's interesting to understand why they felt they couldn't step up at that moment. And what did they say? It's a moment. I think there's a few things going on, I think. And it's almost like, one,

[00:16:19] there's that thing about an ally is you don't want to step on somebody else's space. It's like that thing about being the white savior in terms of race. There's an element of saying, is it my space to actually step in? I think there's an issue that I seem to be handling it okay. I was fighting my own corner. So I can understand why they want to give me the first go on that, in a sense, and then I think the issue is these issues that we were talking about are quite

[00:16:45] nuanced and complex. And I think people really struggle with that side of it. I think that the issue of misgendering is quite clear for most people. But when you get into discussions around how you're referring to people in our community and the gender critical belief side of the law and all that sort of stuff, and I think people felt ill-equipped really to understand the full picture. So I could understand why they didn't start to step in. But when I reflected after the meeting, me and my colleague,

[00:17:14] we're pretty much left hung out to dry to be referred to in my mind in such a meeting. They didn't name us, but they're referring to the people who are as famous as me, right, as a trans woman, referring to trans women as a man who claims as a woman. And I felt left, and the more I thought about it afterwards, I thought we were left and abandoned. But I don't judge badly those people that didn't step in, because I'm just in, and I want to speak to them more about why people feel they can't step up.

[00:17:43] I don't know. Is it something, is it fair or is it you don't want to be? I don't know. I've seen it the same when people have been, I've had cases of people who have been racially abused in the workplace. And actually, what's bothered them more, not that they were being racially abused because they've had to cope with that, is the fact that the colleagues didn't step up enough. They were bystanders a little bit. Supportive after the fact. So I've had some support after the fact of this meeting, but not in the

[00:18:10] meeting when we needed it. Not in your analogy, somebody actually throwing the livesaving ring out to sea or jumping in and after us. I think that analogy works really well. They were supportive, but didn't know what to do. And I think that's where a lot of people are with the trans debate. They just don't know how to get involved in it. I don't know what your thoughts on that. I think

[00:18:34] it is such a difficult, it feels difficult for some people to know what to do and what to say. Yeah. And I think you're talking about a specific thing. And I think what we're saying broadly, if you're in a meeting and phrases like that are being used, if you just say, if I'd been there, I would have said, I agree with that. I would agree with Jen. You can't use language like that. That's not appropriate language for this meeting. And of course, what happens with people is they put themselves in the firing line, but actually they don't. But I suppose a lot of people

[00:19:04] say, what do you mean by that? I don't have to explain what I mean. I'm just saying that that language is not appropriate in the context of a professional meeting. And I think partly one of the things that a lot of sort of ally citizenship sites talk about how you educate yourselves. And yeah, and I think that's quite important because it's interesting. It's I remember reading this phrase that being an ally starts with self education, avoid relying on trans people to teach you everything to some of the work yourself. I don't know about that, but it's interesting to listen

[00:19:30] to a podcast about trans experience, maybe read a couple of books, articles. Yeah, have a look at some stuff. Why not? Watch a bit of stuff on YouTube, plenty of it about. You don't have to know the history of Stonewall and the history of this and the history of that, and all the arguments about all the gender carry on such. It's useful if you know the difference between sex and gender. And, but again, it's not mandatory because some of this is just

[00:19:55] being a decent human being. And if you don't know, it's there's plenty of information out there, especially if you're at work, because I think in a work setting, it's quite important. You're right. And I think you're right about the education piece. And I do, I do something, I remember, okay, I was doing, I did a couple of events and one of the very senior managers in and trust was introducing it. And I did a couple of events speaking. And the second time he did this

[00:20:22] thing where he said, I don't know how to listen to Jen, but I get these things wrong. It was just allowing himself to have an ignorance on this subject, sort of self deprecating in a way. But going, I don't really understand this. And actually, I started to think that as somebody in a very senior position, you ought to educate yourself on these matters. And I think I was, I can't remember the actual quote we had. There's a great equality advocate, John,

[00:20:47] I can't remember his name now. He's a basketball player, John Amici. And he did a session where he said, there's no excuse for ignorance when you're a leader. I think he was doing something in leadership. There's no excuse to be ignorant on some of these matters, because it doesn't take a lot. I know it can be a complicated subject, some of the nuances around trans rights, but it wouldn't take you long to get up to speed. And as you say, understand what being trans is and

[00:21:12] what it means. And that is part of that allyship is educating yourself. It sucks me when I meet people that seem to know more about the subjects. It's often because they've got a relative or somebody, they know somebody, and then they've probably learned from them. And I think, especially if you work in the corporate world, you've got customers, colleagues, stakeholders who may or may not be trans and certainly part of the wider LGBT plus community. And that's why it's important, because you want to put it down to cold, hard cash,

[00:21:41] then put it down to cold, hard cash. Why would you hack off a community? And one of your communities that spends lots of work, we've seen the impact on Target's bottom line with them taking on the pink community and sorry, rainbow community in America last year. $17 million went down the toilet because of that. So if you don't think it's important to do it because it's something a good leader should be doing, think about it as actually being commercially useful. All right, so that all makes sense to me. I think one of the

[00:22:09] things you were coming to earlier is this challenge language and behavior. And we did a podcast as well about dog whistling. And I think this is important, isn't it? When you hear people saying stuff like, haha, do all women have penises or women shouldn't be in sport or they're just men and that with crap things. People shove a wig on and go to prison and get the period stuff. All that stuff is broadly not true. Oh, I identify as a penguin, you know, insert your own

[00:22:35] animal or thing of choice. Piers Morgan was what he was identifying as a black man one day. All this is just offensive. And it's again, it's not appropriate for a workplace. Now, if you're down the pub, these things actually, I think require a greater level of allyship, because if you're in a pub and someone starts lardarsing it about the place and there's alcohol involved, you do have to be careful for your own personal safety. And sometimes the best thing to do is

[00:23:03] just leave. But actually in a professional setting, there is, it is incumbent on you to protect people who are marginalized in the workplace. Because if not, the perception is that you're condoning that sort of behavior. No, I agree. I do. You're absolutely right in some respects, because people are more guarded because they know they could get in trouble at work. But what is said out of work, I always remember things like, I remember, this is going back a long time, so when I was married, we went to

[00:23:32] around the in-laws for Christmas. And they were using casual racist language. And I think I challenged some of it, but didn't always because it felt awkward in a family setting. But, and I find that difficult. I find it difficult sometimes when people I know say things that I find a bit unacceptable, but I always feel bad about myself. I don't challenge it because

[00:23:58] if I've got these principles and I've, so I can see in situations, yes, if you're not, if you don't feel safe, I would absolutely agree. Don't put yourself in danger. But often it's not that. I often just about feeling, being or feeling awkward or feeling you're having to step in or challenge somebody. It's difficult challenging people, especially, you know, it can be friends or people when they, I found this when they've used a term and I had to say, I don't think you should use that term. Right. And challenge people on that a little bit. And it can feel awkward because people

[00:24:28] get, hey, almost it's a triggering language. In Stoke-on-Trent for a while, and I found this even in the workplace, people would still use the term coloured to describe people that we refer to. And certainly in my trade union, we use the term black as a political term, but use the term coloured, which you would not say that in Birmingham or Manchester. It's an offensive term now. It's clearly not to be used in that respect. But people, lots of people in Stoke-on didn't seem

[00:24:56] to have caught up with some of the rest of the world. So I'd seen people who'd use that in their workplace in our union's office for me, and I don't challenge them. But it still felt so awkward because I think it was born out of ignorance of using the right language. Not that I know these people weren't themselves racist, but were using terms that were inappropriate. And I did challenge them. But I did feel that it's awkward because they're friends and colleagues, but I did feel

[00:25:21] I needed to do that, whether that's allyship or not, or whether that's just, I don't know, maybe it isn't, maybe it doesn't sound like very much. Well, I think sometimes it's worth remembering that there are people who hold anti-trans or gender critical views for all sorts of particular reasons. Let's not get into the wise awareness, wherefores of that. But a lot of people use these terms because they're bullying. And I think

[00:25:50] sometimes there's an element of bravery and standing up to a bully. And sometimes the phrase, I'm not sure we use phrases like that anymore, or we don't use phrases like that anymore around here, you get this sort of accusation that, oh, you're one of the woke people and all that sort of stuff. And you don't have to respond to those things. But what you do is you realize sometimes that the vast majority of people who are really hostilely argumentative are used to punching down, they're used to bullying, and they're used to no one standing up because they're frightened that

[00:26:18] actually you get caught on and dragged into the other side of the argument. The vast majority bullies when you stand up to them do back down. And a lot of people will say those words that you were talking about earlier, you say, we don't say that up here. You'll say, oh, sorry, what do you do? Because there's a lot of people who do it because of use, because it's where they come from. A lot of people do it because they violently agree with saying the wrong thing. And a lot of people do it because they're bullies and they need sort out. And I think allies,

[00:26:44] it's incumbent on allies to make a judgment. Is this just bullying behavior? Or is this, and it's quite easy to spot it because there's always that smirk, there's always that laughter, there's always that, it feels like the playground. I would say that was what was going on. I wasn't at your meeting, obviously, but I would suspect there was quite a lot of that going on. It's that passive aggressive bullying that people do. It was definitely passive aggressive. It was somebody with an agenda trying to make their points and trying to influence other people.

[00:27:14] And that person's entitled to their point. And actually, as long as they're prepared to engage in a debate and then understand that their private views are their own. And if it's a workplace, as you were alluding to earlier, then actually there's some things which are not, which are acceptable in your private home are not acceptable at work. And it's making sure that people understand that. So it's that saying to people, you can say that to them in your house, to your mates, on social media, wherever you want, but you can't say it here. And they're repritions to your

[00:27:42] No, no, not if you're there in a role in representing. But yeah, I don't always agree that everything is up for debate. Racism is not, I'm not going to debate anybody who's a racist. It's not up for debate. There are things that I think, you know, there are nuances around stuff that I'm more than happy to have conversations with. I think if I do make that judgment, I know that the person with these views is very clearly long time held, these anti-trans views. I know I'm not going to get anywhere trying to debate somebody like that. It's certainly not going to do that.

[00:28:11] In all honesty, I can't think of hardly any occasions where somebody is used towards me in everyday real life has been trying to bully me with trans. I can, it's vanishing and small even in 20 years. So online, that's definitely different. But the truth of the matter is, when I, if I do trans bill, it's mainly because they've maybe just got language wrong or referred to something wrong. And I just say, actually, there's a better way of doing that. Or as I say,

[00:28:37] so it is vanishingly small, people who are deliberately trying to bully me. And you can spot that. And it is some ways you just don't try. I regret, I sometimes, I do think whether in that meeting, I should have just let it lie and I push back a bit too much. The only thing that I faced absolute racism was when I was campaigning against the British National Party in Stoke. And, you know, people would come and give us Nazi salutes and things. But that was... I think the point we're making is if you hear people using offensive terms, whether you're in

[00:29:07] the meeting or not, if you think people... And again, some of this is not just trans stuff for them. If this is just about offensive works, it's someone's making, making jokes or comments about someone having a funny leg or having a twitch or whatever it might be. People, that's punching down on people. And people depend on you to stand up for them in those situations. Because if you don't stand up there, these are the sorts of things that escalate, especially when you get online. And I don't go online and expect, as a trans person, to see thousands of

[00:29:35] approbations about our wonderfulness. You're going to see tons of bots saying that we should be eradicated. No, you're definitely right there. You do look just a lot. But I think that is very interesting about what I think has been interesting and horrifying in some ways about how the right have started to use this, is they're starting to say that we are the bullies because we're making them use language. Right? Richard Sunak said that to the Conservative Party, we should not be bullied into respecting people's

[00:30:01] pronouns. That's absolutely nuts argument to make. In any way that we're bullying, we're just saying, please treat us with respect. It's a nonsense argument all the time. Or when Ricky Gervais is using weak comedy to have a go with trans people and then says, oh, but they're trying to stop my free speech and you can't make jokes about anything anymore. And it's just pathetic that they are trying to turn it around in some ways as if they're the victims. And they're not. They're not the

[00:30:29] victims because we're not trying to make their life harder. We're just trying to say, respect us. So coming on to some practical actions as well here. Yes, we had. We did say this was going to be a short one, John. We did. We thought. I know you're in a ranting mood today. I am a bit. You are, yeah. Which is lovely. So there's quite a lot of stuff around rights and policies. And I think when you, I know I keep going back to the workplace, but because I think it's easier

[00:30:56] there. I think it's easier to be inclusive at work because there are a bunch of protections at work. So things like you've got nothing to lose by saying that it's actually quite easy to have gender neutral toilets for any Americans that we call bathrooms toilets over here. So sorry about that. I know people are getting squirmy about that. But there you go. There's actually quite a lot of advocacy at the moment against the people who are withdrawing DEI rights and trans rights and

[00:31:21] LGBT rights. And that's lovely. We all know about the Tesla's profits at the moment and the arrival of the swastika, which I think is very funny. And I sometimes think that humour is a good way to dealing with these things. It's interesting to listen to candidates. We've got a health men's at UK who is quite anti-trans and at the moment is actually, I forget what he was talking about today. All he was talking about in the midst of one of the worst national health crisis, waiting lists all

[00:31:49] over the shop, mental health all over the shop, social care ruined, primary care all over the shop. He's talking about whether trans doctors' health records are kept up to date in case evidence of wrongdoing doesn't get pushed forward. That's the focus. That's the focus today, whilst everything else is wrong. And I think what you know about certain people is they quickly, just because someone's a member of the LGBT community doesn't mean they are not going to be people who are anti-trans. Oh no, of course. And I think that's what you've got to watch out for.

[00:32:18] But I saw that as well. And actually how many doctors are there who have transitioned that have had... 62. 62. And how many of them have actually had issues in terms of their practice that some isn't there? It is vanishingly. It's just in the big scheme of things, it absolutely is nothing in the priorities of things. What it is, it's that classic thing about saying, let me talk about transgender rights, whilst everything else is... Yeah. Don't look at what's really happening. Look at those weird trans people. I mean,

[00:32:47] it is that's the whole thing, isn't it? At the moment, it's crazy. Yeah. No, I couldn't agree with you more on that. So anyway, and I think, you know, trans people are being used in a way to roll back equity, equality, anti-discrimination laws and policies. And I think what you will see with the rollback of stuff like that is everybody's rights will be impacted in the long term. So it's that important, it's that representation of thinking as an ally that sometimes I need to protect these

[00:33:14] marginalised communities because once their rights have gone, it will negatively impact my own as well. So it's often worth thinking about that, I think, when you hear these... Well, it's that first they came for. That's the whole point of allies. First they came for and then they came for and then it was left. And I suppose that's why I've always been an activist in terms of things like campaigning against racism, fascism and other equality matters, which I've always been involved in. Because it might not be me in that respect,

[00:33:44] but then there's no good me wanting people to support me as a trans person in this so-called cultural war if I'm not there supporting other people who are being marginalised, particularly in the moment immigrants. Right? That's a marginalised community that are being used in every case. You know, we have to look to ourselves as well about where... And I sometimes wonder if I'm doing enough to be an ally to others that are marginalised. And I could take the argument

[00:34:11] that I'm not. So we do all have to look at ourselves, I think. Yes. But without bending our shoulders as a shape, I think sometimes... Fair enough, yeah. It's sometimes it's that being practical because you're... I know you like to save the world, but it's... You're further down that line of thinking than I am. So I just want a quiet life. No, I get that as well. I don't think everybody can't... Yeah, I don't expect everybody to do that. And sometimes I could argue with the stuff that I've done that I might call myself an ally

[00:34:40] has actually been effective or not. But anyway, that's a whole other debate that we've had before, isn't it? Yeah. So I think there are things which are easy wins for the vast majority of people, generally inclusive toilets, bathrooms, whatever. If you've got policies in schools, which are about trans people, they're not just about trans people. They're about people with ASD, neurodiverse situations, about anybody with difference. As you say, people of colour, people with disabilities, all these inclusive policies are not just about trans people.

[00:35:10] But what people do, if you want to make your life easy and get rid of health and safety laws like you have in the States, start with the trans people, eradicate it for trans people, and you've eradicated it for everybody else. So it's a very... Understand. I think that's one of the most important things to understand. Have a degree of self-interest and say, there's a degree of self-interest in actually supporting people who are being banished.

[00:35:34] I mean, I'm just thinking in terms of practical things. If people are unsure of how to be an active ally or what to do, if you do know somebody, I guess just ask them. I'd be more than happy if somebody said to me, I would like to be an ally. Because I know a lot of people that are supportive of the work I'm trying to do. It's just asking, how could I help with that? What could I do? And it's interesting, isn't it? The microaggressions and the sort of experience of

[00:35:59] discrimination are... Some people don't understand that why we get sensitive to this is because we experience a lot of it all the time. And that's why I think we get more prickly and sensitive to some of these things. Because it's like having... I was thinking about this the other day. It's like someone giving you a nickname that you really hate. Someone decides that you're going to be called Big Nose, for example. And they call you that all the time. You get more and more sensitive to it. And then one day someone says something else to you and you go off on one.

[00:36:26] And it's not because of the thing it was said there. It was the 180th time you've been used it. Yeah. And so sometimes people don't understand that it's been... There's been a heck of a lot of this going on beforehand. One of the things that's interesting though, you mentioned about being an ally, Jen, is that often the questions I get to deal with are things like, what's between your legs? How is sex? Talk to me about your medical history. Because when you invite this thing about being

[00:36:53] an ally, it doesn't invite you to asking questions that you wouldn't maybe ask another person that you've met on the street. You wouldn't start there by saying, how do you orgasm? It's not the first question you ask to someone in the bar when you meet them. It's not something you ever ask, really. I feel quite strongly that... And I don't criticise others. I was in a situation where a colleague, another trans woman, shared information that... Trying to make the point that there weren't any threats

[00:37:19] because they'd had surgery. And I would... Felt the same. Actually, we should never be obliged to tell the world what we've had done to us, our intimate parts. That's never appropriate. You wouldn't go asking people about that. So we shouldn't be pushed into a situation where we have to expose more of ourselves to try and defend our position. But no, I agree with you. We're agreeing a bit far too much on this book, this one, Jill. We'll have to find something we disagree on more.

[00:37:49] I don't know. I think some sensible stuff here as well. If you can't... Sometimes you can't find the opportunity to directly support a trans person in the meeting. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. But you can buy from trans-friendly organisations. You can volunteer to support organisations that help marginalise communities. And critically, for me, with a background in the arts, the LGBT community plus community and trans people basically create billions of pounds worth of soft power and revenue in the organisation and the world. And, you know,

[00:38:19] supporting those people is interesting. Going to see... Why not go and see a drag show? Because drag shows are hilarious. There's that Myra Dubois, I believe she's called down in Portsmouth, who does some really funny shows. And it's that classic thing about you might just find it highly amusing. And you might find that trans people and LGBTQ people are very funny. And it's a very good entertaining evening. And when someone is saying to you, all trans people are perverts, you might know a few people

[00:38:45] that aren't because you've been to see them and you've celebrated their work and you've been part of a a really good life. You know, people forget that just about some of the... It's not just about all, but many of the people that you see on television, social media and such like are gay, are part of the LGBTQ community and often are transgender. And just because you don't know the transgender doesn't mean they're not. That's definitely true. That's definitely true. Yes. Have we solved allyship then for the world?

[00:39:15] No, because we've got a few more things to talk about. Okay. We've got to be, I think, on our side of the fence and on the allies' side of the fence, we have to recognise that allies aren't perfect and people get it wrong. And sometimes we haven't got to get bent out of shape and get all shouty and hissy-fitty about it. If the intention's right, but people get it wrong, that's fine. And if an ally comes along, makes mistakes, but corrects it and puts it right, then actually, why don't we just accept that? And then the other side of the fence. We don't we.

[00:39:45] Well, sometimes we don't. But on the other side of the fence, if you do get it wrong, just say, just use the right term and move on. And actually, if you sit in a meeting and you, if I'd sat in a meeting at your meeting and listened to all that stuff going on, I probably would have reached out after you and said, sorry, I didn't join in. I didn't know what to say, didn't know what to do, but at least I'll do it differently next time around because I've seen it. And so sometimes people only realise where they could have stepped in when they didn't.

[00:40:12] No, I certainly can see that. I'm not criticising people in that respect. I think I'm just interested in about why in some circumstances we don't. We obviously can be making judgements all the time on the go about should I say something you shouldn't? And maybe there's a strategic judgment to say if I say something, that's just going to exacerbate the problem. So I think that's interesting is those thoughts, because I think a lot of people just want to do the right thing, but are not sure. And you're right. I think reaching out afterwards,

[00:40:42] even if you haven't been able to and say, maybe I should have stepped in there. How do you think about that? It's a good thing to do. I think I genuinely think this is the case. I genuinely, it's like most things in life. Most people only recognise it after the event. Most people think it's a bit like you're having a chat to someone and someone makes a really, they make a big zingy comment to you. And you go, oh, it could be funny. And in the middle of the night, you wake up and you think, ah, that's what I should have said back. And I think that's much more common in human behaviour. And I think

[00:41:12] actually after that meeting, a few of those people would have gone, oh, I should have said this. Because they'd never experienced it before. It's all been theory up until that moment. Yeah, that's true. That incident, which I think is interesting, it's very rare in the circles or working in the NHS, for instance, is where everybody is polite in the meetings, even though people don't challenge each other in meetings and things. You should work in commerce. I was going to say, it might be different in the private sector. Yeah, we don't have any problems taking people on, for goodness sake. Just take them on.

[00:41:42] You call them out and you're, and this is what leadership and team working is about. I don't mean that people don't call people out in the wrong. That's not true. Because I spent my 30 years arguing in meetings and things. It's that people are genuinely really nice and want to be respectful. So very rare to come across somebody who wants to make a point that they know would hurt somebody else in that meeting. That's the point to make. It's not that we don't,

[00:42:08] we're overly polite. I just think it's such a rare occurrence that it almost shocks people that somebody would come into a space and say something that was, in my view, so obnoxious. And so what you indicated, what you're indicating, and this is another thing about organisations, is that poor leaders get poor behaviours in the team. And there's no way I would have sat in a meeting as the host of that meeting and allowed that to happen. So actually being a

[00:42:34] leader is about exhibiting allyship to all your marginalised communities, to people in your teams who have different situations and things going on in their lives. And I've done that. I've chaired meetings where I have intervened and picked up all the way. I've also not done it at times and regretted it. So when people have said things, it's not really about trying, but they've made things that I feel would be not, for instance, racist, but

[00:43:02] marginalising of other people in some way or using language or references to a group. And I know of two occasions. One, I did counter it a little bit as the chair of the meeting, and another time where I didn't, because I felt that things had moved on. And I thought it was going to leave an odd taste in the meeting. And I've had to make those judgments, and I've not always got it right. And I think it's a hard thing to do when you're in that position as a chair or a leader in a meeting. But you are. You set the culture as leader.

[00:43:32] It's part of your job to set that culture. And if you set a culture where misogynistic jokes are allowed, bantering type jokes, then you're responsible, partly responsible for that culture. And on that note, for the three people who are left, because if you've come on this long, you really want to be... I did say to you, I said, when we say, oh, this might be a shorter one. I think I said to you, I said, not when we start. But thanks if anybody's still with us. And just be allied.

[00:44:00] And you never know, because I'm bearing in mind what's going on in the States at the moment. We've got listeners in Russia and South Africa at the moment. So there you are. Wow. How about that? There's something. Are we being enough allied to our colleagues in America at the moment, in our community, that are really fearing for their... You know, things are worse in America than they are here. You know, in parts of America. Are we being good enough allies? We're talking about another podcast. But I think to myself, should we be doing more? I don't know.

[00:44:27] And on that note of self-flagellation, it's time to... It is. We'd like to get self-flagellation. ...it's time to bring it to a pause. I'd rather flagellate myself than have somebody else do it. That was fun. I hope the weather perks up for you, Jill. Thank you. Actually, we've been going so long now, it's dark. Is it dark? We've talked self through the night. Anyway, it's great to see you, as always. And I'll catch you next week, I presume. Yeah. All right. Take care. Take care, everyone. Bye-bye.

[00:44:57] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at Gillian at transvox.co.uk And all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people,

[00:45:26] and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brickbats,

[00:45:54] feel free to send it all in to Gillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.