Transvox - UK Election Results Review

[00:00:00] Hi, hi, hi and welcome back to Transvox. And welcome to you, Jenny. How are you? Hello, hello, hello. I'm very good, thank you, Gill. How are you? Well, I'm good as well. And I know for anybody in the UK will know that the general election has

[00:00:22] taken place. Anybody else out of the US probably knows that we're having an election. It has happened. It happened on Thursday, July the 4th, and the world looks a different place today. Would you say that's fair? It absolutely does. This election has been a nation-changing election.

[00:00:42] I think it's not since 1997, since we had anything like this. So yeah, the country, the world feels different the day after. And this is our first post-election result. So we've talked about it before, haven't we?

[00:00:58] Yeah, we've spoken. And I have to point out the fact that I have said for months and months and months that the election is coming and things will be great. Well, not things will be great,

[00:01:09] but there is reason for hope. So we are here now and it's an exciting time. There's time to be cautious about stuff because the world hasn't changed to that extent. But that sort of almost like the sword of Damocles, which was like half an inch above

[00:01:25] our heads, seems to have been lifted way, way back now. And it's quite interesting that the negative pressure will have gone even if things don't change overnight. It feels to me a little bit like, I don't know whether this sounds overblown coming out of a

[00:01:39] slightly abusive relationship in the UK because the government has been, you know, everything in the UK feels like it's a bit terrible at the moment. We've had 14 years of austerity and a government that seems to want to push things where I am anyway, in the wrong,

[00:01:55] but many of us in the wrong direction. And the country has said overnight, we've had enough of you, we want somebody else coming in. It does feel a sense of just relief, I think, you know, a bit of excitement and hope, but in the main just relief.

[00:02:11] And it's good maybe just to go back and just to reflect on the fact that where we had been going and where we had been going at a real pace was quite a lot of anti-trans sentiment, lots of anti-trans media. And particularly concerning was anti-trans guidance in classrooms

[00:02:34] and in towards the National Health Service. And some of that has passed, some of that's gone through, but there's no doubt that what was interesting was the fact that Keir Starmer was treating, who are key members of the Labour Party as we all know,

[00:02:56] they seem to be sort of buying into some of that anti-trans rhetoric. So that was a bit worrying, wasn't it? Yes, I mean, certainly for the last few years, this government, the Tory government is now gone.

[00:03:10] They decided there were two amongst other things or two groups they wanted to pick on. Those are immigrants and trans people. It's been very clear in their language, in their rhetoric and what they're doing in terms of trying to change parts of society

[00:03:29] either through the law. You know, you had to look a year ago that the Prime Minister, the ex-Tory Prime Minister who got the biggest cheer at the Tory Party Conference for making anti-trans comments, right? That was the world they're in.

[00:03:47] And it is absolutely fair to say that, I mean, I think everybody expected Labour to get into power and that within our community, there's not a lot of faith in towards trans stuff coming from Keir Starmer, the leader and West Ritting,

[00:04:05] who is Secretary of Health, who made certainly where I sit from anti-trans comments. So, you know, there's been that mix of we want to have a change because we feel this government is just hating towards us, but with God we wish that

[00:04:21] the government coming in was saying better things. And certainly that was my feelings coming up to us. I was getting really angry and frustrated that I felt that the incoming Labour Party would be either sort of agreeing with the Tories or just

[00:04:39] being too cowardly to stand up for equality. And I see, yes, I still go back to this point that I think that being ruthlessly pragmatic and the strategy has always been to remove the things which have been used

[00:04:55] as sticks to beat them with. And I think what they did quite cunningly, and I think to actually, I think, to our benefit was to remove trans issues from the table by appearing to sit on the other side of the case. I know that Keir Starmer

[00:05:11] had a meeting with JK Rowling, came out and said- Well, he hasn't met with her. I thought they had a conversation. I thought they actually had some sort of conversation. Yes, I think he's agreed to meet with her afterwards. There was something in

[00:05:24] her Times interview where she'd asked this question. So sorry, I didn't mean to- Yes. But we haven't had a mess yet. Yeah. The fact is he'd sort of said something in the lines that, you know, yeah, trans people should all be about the biology, single-save spaces aren't there.

[00:05:38] But I think by shutting the issue down it means that we have not become a focus for this election. And I think there was certainly at the beginning, I think by being pragmatic and just saying what needed to be said, I think it's taken us off the table.

[00:05:51] And I think otherwise it could have been a horrendously bruising election, which I think is going to happen next time around. I think we'll be much more the focus of people's attention. And because actually what the reform

[00:06:04] done is voters done a surface to actually how many people potentially see trans people as part of world culture and they will be overtly against world culture. Fair enough. I'll come to, in a sense, I want to talk about reform for a minute, but

[00:06:23] I'm not sure. I mean, it was on the table and it was talked about. It was maybe not the worst case that it was on every single question, but it was in the debate on the television, you know, between Stammer and Schoenach, the issue came up.

[00:06:38] And I think what they described, as I heard it described as the Ming Va strategy that Labour Party didn't want to drop anything. But I still don't forgive him because Keir Stammer made an interview two days before the election, which he was always going to win

[00:06:53] to, as you referenced, to double down on some of his comments saying that, I mean, the main thing he said was he felt, you know, whatever status is the wrong word, but trans women did not have the right to use single sex spaces. Now, you know, there is

[00:07:11] an exemption in the Act. We know that. You know, there is some wiggle room in those words, I think, but he could have handled that differently and so forth. But you're right. It certainly wasn't, I think the reason it wasn't was because the Tories realised

[00:07:26] it wasn't winning them votes. I think they changed their tact slightly. They didn't talk about it, but it didn't become, you didn't hear them say woke every five minutes. It seemed to me and I think they'd realised that it isn't really a vote winner.

[00:07:43] So I think that's why it didn't quite get as bad as we hoped for. But many people, we were speaking to somebody, weren't we, Jill, in our community who turned themselves off from the politics in the election because they don't want to hear

[00:07:57] some of this stuff. So, yes, it was interesting, but it's tangible to me the sense of, the greater sense of calm and hope I had the morning after, even though the Prime Minister appears not to be on our side, you know. And I actually think there's two,

[00:08:18] and I said this all the way along, I think there's two phases to this election. There was winning power and then what people do once they have won that power. And I think what happens in any pre-election is politicians say what needs to be said to get

[00:08:30] elected. And that is fine. And as far as I'm concerned, if one wanted the Labour Party, I mean, if they said we're all going to be dancing naked and picking a le circus,

[00:08:42] and if that got them elected, then let's all go dance naked and pick a le circus. Because what we know is that a lot of the stuff that said pre-election, it doesn't get carried through. It's said because it's there in the moment.

[00:08:53] It's not meant to be seen as, you know, when someone's talking informally to oppress people or informally to oppress people, they're not setting policy. What they're doing is they're talking about stuff. And I think people mistake that. So actually the fact

[00:09:08] that he said what he said doesn't mean it's going to be Labour Party policy. No, does it necessarily translate into legislation? And I don't think we'll see any changes towards our community for quite some time actually in the cycle of power.

[00:09:22] It may be. I mean, if you make a manifesto commitment, and I think at the moment, it's the Labour Party who are not going to want to see that trust is restored in politics. So they're not going to want to overtly do anything against what they've,

[00:09:38] as much as they have committed, which isn't in some senses a great deal of detail prior to the election. Because it's also true that this was, you know, you know, much of the Labour Party support, I remember this was as much to get the Tories

[00:09:54] out of election as anything else. Right. And that Labour, the sensible choice rather than absolute enthusiasm. You know, this wasn't, I think that's what's different. And I think you're right. I mean, I think there will be some differences, but there is still,

[00:10:11] it's fair to say there's still problems because of what the leader has committed to. And it won't be legislation, but there are things that could be done around that. As you referenced earlier, like guidance in the NHS and in schools or guidance around

[00:10:27] the Equality Act. So there is that. But what you do know is the Labour Party, you know, if Keir Starmer in his speech to the Labour Party conference, which will be in September, October, trying to say anything anti-trans stuff, there will be, yeah, he

[00:10:46] would be heckled and there would be real fuss. So you know they're not going to be doing what the Tories did, which was just overtly just battering us. No. And we're prepared to put

[00:10:59] an expensive handbag on the table now and say that will not happen at the Labour Party conference. There will be no anti-trans talk from the leader. I am prepared to wager you won a wonderful handbag. I'll have half of you on that. I suppose it depends,

[00:11:17] what you would worry about, because I've been to the party conferences and the fascinating things is there may well be conversations. So you have fringe events. So there could even be, you could see there being some sort of motions put in support of trans people. Definitely,

[00:11:32] you could see that happening. Because I do know there's a movement within the Labour Party to try and change some of the policies. And I think we shouldn't forget, it's not that long ago,

[00:11:43] four years ago, that the Labour Party were fully committed to introducing self-ID for trans people, the progressive change that we wanted, that many of us wanted in the community. They were committed on that. So that's fallen away with the current leader. It was there with

[00:11:59] the previous leader and it's fallen away a bit because of what's, as you said, what's in the news and those people like JK Rowling, they've had some influence on that. But that's what's made it fall away rather than any actual changes or evidence that things needed to change.

[00:12:16] So there must be scope there for hope that things could change. And I think you're right. And I think the trouble is in our community, sorry, let me rephrase. My own view of what happens here is the critical things that we need to start solving

[00:12:35] for all everybody, including our community, is cost of living crisis, we need to fix the NHS, we need to do these things. And I am quite prepared to understand that there'll probably be no thoughts about trans issues in the first two or three years of this government's life.

[00:12:53] And in a funny sort of way, that's quite a good thing. And I know that's frustrating for everybody. But unless we fix the cost of living crisis, many, many trans people are going to lose their jobs, they're going to really, really struggle. Unless we change all the other

[00:13:07] things and other bits and pieces, we're all going to be suffering. Unless this government actually deliver quickly, then they won't be around. And what matters for us, I think, is that we have a period of stability where actually our rights can be regrown. But I don't

[00:13:23] and the thing is, there's a trouble with any minority, isn't it? We sort of have to be patient and wait. And whilst lots of people are jumping up and down saying, no, they should be fixing

[00:13:30] trans issues first and stop reading stuff on social media. It's not realistic. We'll have to manage our own expectations away, don't we? I slightly disagree to a degree. I think you're right in your analysis that the priorities of the NHS cost of living, public

[00:13:48] services as a whole, you know, there's lots of, I mean, you know, they've got a problem straight up on paying the public service. I'm in the NHS and we are, so they're going to need

[00:13:56] to deal with that imminently. So there are things to imminently. I agree with you on that. And what they have committed in the manifesto to improving some legislation in the General Recognition Act. That's in the manifesto. So they're committed to doing that. So I

[00:14:11] wouldn't expect that to wait four years. I mean, how that goes. But I would disagree with you. I think as a community, personally, as an activist in a community, I think we start organising now and we've talked to this about, I think we have to

[00:14:25] start being organised now. I've got a new Labour MP in my constituency. Somebody who actually I've sort of know, I've met a couple of times, I'm going to arrange to meet with her

[00:14:36] as a matter of some priority, give her a month or two and talk to her about, you know, trans people and what they need to hear from the Labour government. And I think that's what

[00:14:46] we should be doing. So I think we should start to build that groundswell. There are loads of there are Labour MPs, absolute allies of trans people. So we know where the problems are, you know, West Street in Rosie Duffield, Keir Starmer. But we also know there's MPs

[00:15:02] like Kat Smith and Nadia Whitmore who are positively pro-Zara Sultana who have positively committed to supporting trans rights. There's a movement and I think we start to build those influences and powers within that to start to lobby, start to use them. So I guarantee that

[00:15:24] we're not going to, you know, as a community and as activists, we're not going to sit back and wait two or three years because, you know, some of the things, the challenges are on a

[00:15:33] doorstep, you know, because I tell you, the anti-trans media are not going to wait four years. They're going to be stirring this up and that's what we've got to push back against. So I take your point that I don't see them introducing like the Tories could do,

[00:15:47] completely ripping up the Equality Act to attack. They're not going to do that, which the Tories might have done or anything like that. But I think I don't think we wait two or three years personally. I think we start to organise now and build those allyships

[00:16:03] and build those powers. You know, we've got two other parties have now been elected who have significantly positive trans policies. The Lib Dem support self-ID. They've not got 71 MPs. You know, the Green Party have positive trans policies. You mentioned reform, which are

[00:16:21] the far right policy, which don't. But I think, well, their vote was all about Brexit anyway, really. It's still a message of Brexit in many ways. So I agree with you. I don't think

[00:16:35] we're going to see it. I don't think we need to be terrified that they're going to suddenly introduce some more that's going to attack us, our rights. But I don't think we should be sitting back and waiting two or three years. Well, I'm happy if you disagree with

[00:16:48] me on that, that may be a different pragmatic approach. But as always, I think we are agreeing. All I'm doing is I think we have to manage expectations. I don't think we should

[00:17:00] sit around and do nothing, but I do think we should manage our expectations. And I do think that you can have something in the manifesto that either doesn't get actioned or takes its time. And I think it may well be the thing that what they do because

[00:17:16] they've got a massive majority, they might take some of the most contentious things and do them early. So they might. The thing is, we don't know, in fact, actually there's been a cabinet meeting this morning where they've been setting priorities and such like, I think your

[00:17:27] idea about talking to MPs writing letters and I think on panel campaigning in a way that's a bit more. How can I put it? Changing the way that we campaign because actually what has happened under the Tory party is politics has moved to an extraordinarily adversarial.

[00:17:46] I'm right, you're wrong approach rather than a I don't know there's a, you know, we want to achieve this objective. How do we given that we have objectives that sometimes diversity completely opposite to each other is how do we find a place where we can all come to

[00:18:00] a point where things work and actually, you know what's sometimes that's what's our least worst position. And, you know, I think it's about how you get there. But I'm absolutely right. I think talking to MP, I think it's a great idea. I think there's lots of lobby

[00:18:13] groups. I think there are lots of practical ways that allies can start joining in. I think there'll be less pressure on prides. I think there will be a sort of reemergence of things like the arts investment and all sorts of different areas in society where it's not just

[00:18:34] about us is that sometimes we have the unintended benefits of things that come from us. So yes, I do think we should and I think I have famously campaigned on this podcast

[00:18:43] about the fact that, you know, I've met lots of trans people who spend more time attacking other trans people than they have attacking the real enemy. And, you know, for the oddest reasons, terminology, a linguistic error or whatever it might be. And I think we have to actually

[00:19:00] just work out a way of being able to say, you know, we just want, we just want, we just really want our rights, which everybody else has. And it's as simple as that, really.

[00:19:11] No, I agree. Yes, I think there's often elements with any movement that says, as within the community, there can be people that disagree and sort of turn on each other. It's the old Monty Python thing, isn't it? The, was it the life of Brian and the popular,

[00:19:27] there can be a bit of popular liberation front and the of Libya, of Syria and all that sort of stuff. I'm not quoting it very well, which is bad for me. Taking a 35 year old reference and this quoting, I mean, that's worse than me.

[00:19:40] Well, you know what I mean? That you end up, but I mean, there's something that, you know, is in networks within my employers. And when I meet, actually we're generally, I don't see a

[00:19:49] lot of that if I'm being honest, I generally don't. I generally see a pretty much cohesion of what people are looking for. So it's, I think it's on the fringes where that happens.

[00:20:00] I think you also, what I would also think is dead right in, is our approach is if we were trying to win some hearts and minds, it's how you tackle that. So, you know, I'm going to,

[00:20:08] I don't know my new MPs views. So it is possible she has some gender critical views. I don't know. I don't believe so. But when I speak to them, you know, my approach would be, I don't know what your views are if they are this, but

[00:20:26] this is, you know, this is where we are in our community. This is how we're feeling in our community. I'm making the point that, you know, despite all the hysteria and the news and

[00:20:35] hype, there had been no issues caused to anybody else around trans stuff. You know, we are the community that are suffering and take some of that heat out of it. And I think if you critically argue through, you're critically to go through the issues, actually it's very

[00:20:50] difficult to argue that trans rights need to be in any way pulled back if you actually go through the issue by issue and say, you know, there is no evidence that supported trans people

[00:21:03] harms women's rights. There is no evidence of that. Yeah, but I think we mistake the difference between rhetoric and evidence. People aren't interested in evidence, are they? People are interested in confirmation of their own views, not. And the thing is,

[00:21:19] this is it. We've got to move from this, the ability to have a mature debate because you can't have a mature debate anymore. And, you know, I see people that go onto GB news and

[00:21:29] they're sort of wheeled out as sort of trans icons and they sit there and they're parodied or lambasted or ridiculed. And they sit and turn up and they do a brilliant job of

[00:21:39] putting the facts and then, you know, as soon as they disappear, then all the invective and stuff comes out and that was a load of rubbish and this is just lies and blah, blah, blah,

[00:21:47] blah. And the thing with confirmation bias is we all know is if you believe something to be true, you find the evidence to support your view. And I think for me it's about how do we win

[00:21:56] hearts and minds with the people that matter, the people who are on the edges of our community. And, you know, I meet lots of these people in business who say things to me like, you know, I'm not really interested in trans issues specifically, but what I'm interested in

[00:22:12] the views of people who are different and how do we get the best out of the workplace? Because that's really, and that's what we all want, isn't it? I mean, there's a lot of

[00:22:18] trans people who love to have a job, go to work and have their performance being the first thing on the agenda rather than their gender on the agenda. There's a lot of agendas in that sense. You know what I mean? It is. No, you're absolutely right. Look,

[00:22:33] I've never listened to GB News so I'm not going to ever go to, you know, there are platforms and there are areas that we're not going to persuade. I wouldn't bother writing a letter to the Telegraph, say put it that way. You know, they're not going to,

[00:22:43] you know, they're not going to, but it's finding those people that we can't, those people that are willing to listen to us that have positions of power. And I think we can start to build that within the Parliament now with this new Parliament. We've surely got

[00:22:56] more scope for that and that's why despite me being, and I'm usually the one is we're all doomed, you know, this is terrible and getting really angry and frustrated. I have a sense of

[00:23:08] calm at the moment and a sense of hope that we could start to do that. And I think we start to build those powers and I think, I think we can and might be proved wrong but I can.

[00:23:20] And then, you know, as I say, you know, the Lib Dems and the Greens are not going to be at the, you know, if there's ever anything coming before Parliament they're going to be

[00:23:29] people that are going to, I mean, stick to support us. So it's a very different place, isn't it? You know, I mean there are still some utterly hateful people in Parliament, Sveta Braverman, Kemi Badenoch of the Conservatives got elected in there and they are

[00:23:47] horrific towards transit. You know, they use the word woke every five minutes, right? They seem to think that but you know, their power is so diminished now. It was really interesting that Wes Streeting who we've talked about, who, you know,

[00:24:02] concerns us because of some of his comments. I do hope he fixes the NHS, that's the most important thing he needs to do. So I'm going to support him in doing that but he was very

[00:24:13] close to being defeated. He only just got his seat due to, I think, an independent vote against the Labour Party stance on Palestine on his seat. So, you know, we did, some people

[00:24:26] did lose their seats through different sort of routes and I guess you could argue that sort of campaigning routes. And what's interesting here is that it's a very interesting election which is showing up the frailties in our own democracy around the fact that really it's a

[00:24:40] system based on having really only two parties, bit like the old-fashioned idea in the States. And so first-past-the-post means that, you know, when one party gets in, that's fine. But we've got first time forever thing, four parties over 10% of the vote,

[00:24:55] five parties over 5% and you've got this anomaly where effectively, I think there's two percentage points more than last time the Labour share but they've got 220 more seats and the Labour and Conservatives are only, basically, and the whole share of the votes drop because of the

[00:25:12] low turnover. And I think what we're going to see, and we always see this around the initial election time, you see this push for proportional representation. But, you know, I mean, whether you like them or not and, you know, the fact is that four million people

[00:25:29] voted reform and they've ended up with four MPs. And proportional representation would give those parties more voice and that's what happened. And this is what's actually happened, strangely enough, in Europe because they operate PR systems and of course you have to then

[00:25:44] look at the far right as being your political bedfellows if you want to get anything done. And actually, if we want to hasten the rise of the right in this country, we'll bring in

[00:25:51] PR. So it's a real ethical and structural dilemma. Do you actually say, do we actually encourage people to vote reform because actually people are voting and they don't see any change so people are thinking I'm not going to bother voting but in order to give people democracy,

[00:26:10] we bring into power the people who want to remove our democracy. So we've got the same dilemma that we've got in the states and everywhere else. It's peculiar, isn't it? It is a bit. I think the UK because I think there's only two countries in Europe that use

[00:26:27] this first-past-the-post system, it's us and Belarus which is not a country we'd want to. So it's really interesting. There's only two, everybody else has a form of PR or a form of different. But in a way, and I think there are some flaws in it, the country has,

[00:26:44] on a block, has decided they've had enough of this government and I think people know how the system works. So there's been lots of tactical voting. The Lib Dems who would have always been, who always suffered in the first-past-the-post system have benefited this time. That's

[00:27:00] never happened to them before because people have tactically voted and said we want the government out and if the Lib Dems are the party that are the best chance of doing that then I'll vote for the Lib Dems and that's happened in lots of constituencies. So

[00:27:13] it's very interesting. I think the country's understood how to play that system that we have. I think that's the thing isn't it, Jen, it's about saying well look, it's not a surprise

[00:27:23] we've got this system, you have to let it. So look, reform got 14% of the vote and got four or five, four seats I think. Five seats in the end. The Green parties had four seats and had

[00:27:34] seven percent of the votes, so half as much. But the Liberal Democrats had a smaller vote share than reform and have 70 seats and reform have five. And Liberals and the LDs

[00:27:47] had a smaller share in the vote. So you know, this is going to... I mean the thing is, love them or hate them and I tend not to give my opinions but... I hate... if you're talking reform, I hate them.

[00:27:59] Yes well I was going to talk about Nigel Farage. I hate Nigel Farage. He of course, he now is gunning because he wants to break the UK electoral system in favour of PR because he knows as was what happened in the European Parliament is

[00:28:14] having PR will give you something that's important. It's not right and I don't necessarily agree. I don't... wherever you stand on reform and I have my own clear views, the fact is they had 14% of the vote and one percent seat share and the Liberal Democrats

[00:28:32] had 12% of the vote and 11% seat share and that's just not right. Well I tend to agree with you, the Labour party have a policy agreed at last conference in favour of PR right. So the government that's benefited the most, you know the party

[00:28:47] has benefited the most and the Lib Dems have always been pro-PR. We did have a referendum a decade you know a bit more than a decade ago and the country chose not to so I think it is going to be difficult of course.

[00:28:58] Well you see, come on let's get real there's something, sometime we need to hit this issue on the head. We've elected the government to make decisions on our behalf, for goodness sake don't put... you know do not put decisions like that to the great British

[00:29:10] public for God's sake. No I absolutely agree. Let's remove all these blasted referendums. Well we don't have many compared to some countries but... But look at the ones we've had, my god what damage have they done? Yeah because they were done without a properly informed electorate.

[00:29:27] We have an uninformed electorate, we still had people... I was listening to interviews on BBC of floating voters who were saying okay this is the election tomorrow are you going to vote? Oh I don't know. What do you think Akees Stammer and they answered Kim

[00:29:39] Who's he? I mean you know. Yeah I get that. What's interesting here, sorry to jump in because I get annoyed about this. Well actually you get annoyed. A lot of people didn't vote and that's fine and there's a lot of people who are Tories

[00:29:54] who couldn't bring themselves to vote Labour and I get that I really do understand that. But what's interesting is that the how few young people voted apparently and a lot of the young people have voted guess which party they've voted for. They've voted reform.

[00:30:11] No I don't think that's the truth. Look at the data that's coming out that they have a big youth vote and of course what you're doing is you're getting a rebellious youth vote going on and we can't assume, I mean

[00:30:27] we can't assume, I think the number is as high as 98% in terms of old white racist people but we can't just assume that's the case. I'm not saying they haven't but I think actually young people their protest vote went to the Greens which you know got millions.

[00:30:43] They only got 7% of the vote. Yeah but we're talking about the small part of the electorate so yes the core voting reform is an older generation that's Brexit generation, that's Brexit voting. The old people didn't vote for Brexit. There's a remnant to the Brexit vote with

[00:30:57] your reform so that's where I'm not saying that young people didn't have a protest vote but I don't believe and if I see the data it'll be wrong. I don't believe that young people who took time to vote went to voted reform in the

[00:31:10] main other than wanted to just be anti-establishment because that's what that vote is. It's not a thought vote, it's an establishment vote to a degree it's a Brexit vote. But you see I think Jenny we have to really be careful about this and I think

[00:31:24] what we did after Brexit and what we did before Brexit is we said all Brexit people are racist stupid people. I didn't say that though. No you didn't say that no but there was definitely one must be careful, this is not about you and I,

[00:31:40] one must be careful about characterising people who vote in a particular way. We can't say they're wrong and stupid, one can't say they're wrong and stupid. We may believe that to be true but I do think and I don't like the views of reform,

[00:31:54] I think they're awful and they're terrible but I do defend to the hilt their right to express them and I think what we have to do is to say they're not all anti-establishment votes and that's not a thought through vote. No no no not all.

[00:32:09] An anti-establishment vote is a thought through vote. I think personally the decision not to vote is a thought through vote and I think what we should have is we should have a box on the on the voting form that says I don't want to

[00:32:20] vote for any of these candidates and I think if we had any with that probably that would be the highest party. My well-being but that doesn't really help in democracy but I I take of course these are absolutes but I think a lot of reform is an anti-plague

[00:32:35] on both your houses vote and it's an anti-immigration vote and it's a Brexit vote. Look I absolutely agree with it personally I think Nigel Farage is a racist and I base that on some of his previous language and so forth.

[00:32:49] Well that's my view that's my view him uncomfortable with Romanians and the next door him and being uncomfortable he expressed about seeing two men kissing right. And Richie Sunak. Yeah yeah and he made comments that were clearly dog whistle racist comments towards

[00:33:08] Richie Sunak so and there are other people in that part but of course not every voter is and when you look at Brexit there was lots of left-wing people voted for Brexit I know people

[00:33:18] within my movement not by far not the majority but a number of people because of different mechanisms all I'm saying is I think I think the reform vote as high as it was is a different is a different so it can be an interesting mechanism and it was

[00:33:32] because they were they were nowhere and I think it is there is vestiges of Brexit and things like that I think going forward whether they could build I don't who knows who knows on that I think it is interesting with younger people

[00:33:44] Labour have committed to votes for 16 year olds which I entirely support you can fight for your country then you should be able to pay taxes and you should have a vote so I I think that's important and we know that younger people despite everything is that

[00:33:59] I think are more likely to be left-leaning and more progressive you know you see that in America as well so I think there's real hope I think that's a real danger for the Tories

[00:34:09] because if they don't find a way of attracting a younger vote there they could be out of power for generations if they don't find a way and I don't think they're going to engage

[00:34:20] younger people by going down the reform you know that more hard right line so it's in dead end we're like a well then political podcast aren't we Jelf? What do we know?

[00:34:35] You know what I was just thinking I was just thinking as we're chatting two things the first thing that's made me think was isn't it lovely isn't it lovely that we talk about politics again and isn't it lovely that we can have agreeable disagreements and isn't it lovely

[00:34:48] that actually so many people are interested in politics now because it is so important and although yes there is greater voter apathy the people who are more politically turned on are much much more politically turned on and much more driven and the rise of podcasts has been

[00:35:02] definitely a part of that and the biggest worry of all and the biggest thing that's coming towards this is the American election and I think what's going on in America could have

[00:35:14] a profound impact on it will not just in Europe not just in America but also here as well and no it's a it's I mean it's an existential threat coming from America to everybody and

[00:35:28] you know even on the you know maybe you could argue the small scale in terms of what we talked about the start in terms of trans rights and it's not helped if if we have a president so overtly hostile to trans people you know because the current

[00:35:42] president has been very supportive I would argue and vocally so but you know there's it doesn't look like Joe Biden's likely to win or certainly diminishing his chance of winning

[00:35:56] again if he is to if he is to run so yeah it really does worry me about America and that does scare me because you know as we've talked before you know it influences you know

[00:36:08] the CAS report that report into your trans health care for young people went and talked to some groups in far right American groups you know in Rwanda's Rwanda's entity so what happens out there impacts something that's happened here you know so we are we are linked

[00:36:26] on that but I think I think there's a sense of hope to me the hope there is a sense of hope I've got it at the moment and it's amazing I remember that's great I do remember how devastated

[00:36:38] I felt after the Brexit referendum I was in Brighton at the time at a conference and I walked out the door and even though it's sunny I felt there was a huge black

[00:36:45] cloud I felt just so low because it was such a surprise and I was so gutted about the result and this week when he eventually woke up after staying up far too late watching the results

[00:36:59] there was a sense of it felt a brighter place it just felt like a weight a degree of a weight had been lifted off our shoulders in this country I don't know so weird to say that that

[00:37:10] it just felt personally that way I don't know why you know but it felt tangible I've done about you so I do and I tell you one thing and I know this is a bizarre thought so bear

[00:37:23] with me for a moment but I do feel sorry for one person at the moment and that's Rishi Sunak okay because I tell you why because he became the leader he he made he has made all sorts

[00:37:40] of mistakes and I think but basically he's been a very poor politician bizarrely enough he's been a very good administrator he's technically made parliament work he's he has carried the the fight to the to the Labour Party in the best way he could he I think he's quite

[00:37:59] what's the word I think he's quite authentic maybe that's the wrong word I think it's the best word for the moment I can think of and and I'm looking at him saying I'll stick around

[00:38:07] until the until you've elected the new leader and there was a sort of there was a sort of some black humor wasn't there around the fact that he called the election in July so he'd be

[00:38:15] working he'd be working in Silicon Valley by September and I just sit in seeing he must have been thinking oh my god I've won my seat please will this agony ever end because that

[00:38:28] poor guy is that gonna have to be he's going to have to stand up as the leader currently to the Conservative Party and do prime minister's questions on Wednesday can you imagine how utterly humiliating that is well I mean it's happened before obviously I think

[00:38:48] I think you know these things happen and so this is only the fourth time a Labour Party has won from opposition into into power that's the only fourth Labour Prime Minister that's gone

[00:38:57] from opposition to power we've had five Tory MPs in the space of god how many years I tend to and this is probably I tend on a human level I can feel people I tend to think

[00:39:09] I'm not negative towards politicians of the class I tend to think people go into public service are wanting to do better for the world now there are exceptions to that Boris Johnson I don't believe he was doing that out of sense I don't believe Farage I don't believe

[00:39:23] Donald Trump there are extremists who I don't believe her in this trust there's no way she her view is you know really what she was looking for was public service right these people that

[00:39:35] I find that difficult but the vast majority of people and I did listen to his his speech and there is part of me who said it I thought it was a gracious speech I think it was

[00:39:46] you know in a sense dignified his sort of concession speech like that and I think I absolutely can feel on a personal level sorry for anybody in that situation I think it for

[00:40:00] any MP it must be it's a pretty it's not a job I mean I've always thought I wanted it I would love to have been an MP because I'm political in my mindset but on the other hand I don't

[00:40:10] know if it's a great existence it must be devastating to suddenly find yourself at work overnight and the whole sort of world there's your situation now and there's some there's an MP I've had a few events with called John Ashworth who was the shadow secretary of

[00:40:25] state for health and quite prominent in the Labour Party I've shared a stage and a microphone with us we did a small double act of an award ceremony once so I know John Ashworth and

[00:40:36] and he got got beat out of the blue by an independent on a vote around Palestine and I know John and that must have been absolutely devastating for him so and I can

[00:40:48] see that on a personal level even with somebody like Rishi Sunak who I don't think he's not Boris Johnson who is loathsome a liar and venal I think I don't like Rishi Sunak's policies I

[00:40:59] don't think he's in touch with people I don't think he's a good politician but is he sort of mendacious and venal like Johnson no I think and I can see that you know on a

[00:41:11] personal level I can feel I can feel sympathy now I that's not to say anybody who might certainly the people I know in my movement who will say I have no sympathy for him and I get

[00:41:23] that I can also get that point as well but I think with you on a personal level I do see I do tend to think people are trying to do things for the best or be it often

[00:41:33] wrong and misguided I don't I say that how can I forgive him for his anti-trans stuff that's just hateful that's just pandering so you know that part of me that goes you prepared

[00:41:44] to attack us as a small community for the sake of a few applause and so forth so you know there's that sort of cognitive dissonance a little bit about that but I had the same reaction you

[00:41:55] know when you see somebody giving that speech and realizing that everything they're after everything what they've been working for has now been taken away and it is humiliating for

[00:42:06] him to be this is the worst result that party's ever had ever really I can also feel that as well and I can also sense it could be the case in five years time that we have an equally long

[00:42:19] swing back to the Tories I think it's I think I think I think everything's so volatile and I apologize I don't think this idea of that you had when sort of Thatcher in the major

[00:42:31] power for 10 years now Blair and Brown room for 10 years and actually about 14 years of the Tories I think things are a lot I mean literally the Labour Party went from one of their worst

[00:42:40] results to four years later having you know one of their best results in terms of seats so people people are prepared to switch the votes far more than they used to so things are

[00:42:50] more volatile I'll agree but I think the Tories are in real trouble because what do they stand for I don't think Pete I don't think they stand for what a modern progressive electorate really wants and they've been seen to be incompetent which is the biggest failing you

[00:43:06] can have in British politics if you see it to be incompetent yeah you know well it's it's very exciting and luckily luckily I mean we don't always talk about now we'll talk about something else next time I'm sure because I think we've probably

[00:43:23] tested out yeah and you listen as we got less patience still but it's a it's been such a weight hanging over us and you know it's so great to feel like we're in a different place now

[00:43:34] I think and I think the message I'm taking from this from your perspective which is that we think for me it's about managing our expectations let's see the country improve because all of us need everything to improve and I think your wise words of two things you've

[00:43:46] said which I think particularly need reinforcing one which is let's start organizing and let's start contacting people I think through TransVox we're going to be a lot more active politically this year it's one of my um what's new year's resolutions yes started this this year in july

[00:44:03] the fourth so I think you and I are going to be much more overtly political and if that's all right with you still and I think we're going to um my life jill's been my life and

[00:44:11] I think we're also going to um uh do something else which I've forgotten so but you know maybe invest in memory pills but yes I think oh yes I think the other thing you said was

[00:44:23] I think we're much more we need to be much clearer and helping allies help us which I think is a very important thing it was my brother said how can I help and he and it was

[00:44:32] a heartfelt plea he said how can I help and I needed to actually think start to think and I think we should build on that we're going to we're definitely going to have my brother on the

[00:44:41] podcast at some point I definitely think you'd find him interesting to listen to as as an ally really and somebody with a family member so I will bear that in the

[00:44:50] mind of the future but yes thank you for that gel I think I think we are I think I don't I don't I think I've run out of things to say so so forgive me but it's just nice being happy

[00:45:00] isn't it that's it that's a lovely it's nice not feeling like we're being abused by the comments it just is nice to feel we're not the other that it is just a sense of relief is

[00:45:11] is overwhelming I think for so many in this country right now and on those notes on those words happy happy honeymoon period I'll speak to you very soon and happy honeymoon period to

[00:45:23] you Jill catch you next week you take care bye everyone thanks for listening to this episode of trans vox it's been a joy to have you with us if you want to make contact with us you

[00:45:40] can contact us at Gillian at trans vox.co.uk and if you'd like to support the work we do please go to Patreon and go to page trans vox and all of our money goes to our nominated charity and

[00:45:55] Jen you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes which one have you chosen our charity is called Beyond Reflections which is a charity that provides support and counseling to trans people non-binary people and their friends

[00:46:08] and their families across the UK an amazing charity doing some amazing work really important so please if you can give great and if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections

[00:46:19] it's beyond-reflections.org.uk and but as I say if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing because we love to help the people who help us again if you've got ideas for the show things you'd like to ask us questions comments applause or brick baths

[00:46:35] feel free to send it all in to Gillian at trans vox.co.uk until the next time goodbye bye