Transvox - Transgender Day of Visibility

[00:00:00] Hi and welcome back to Transvox, and hello Jenny how are you?

[00:00:12] I'm very well thanks Gillian, how are you?

[00:00:14] I'm very good. I'm very good. I'm feeling very visible.

[00:00:19] And I think that's a really good day because the 31st of March is Transday of Visibility.

[00:00:24] It's time to stand up, be visible, celebrate the achievements of other trans people who are

[00:00:30] visible and to maybe just think about some of those people who've been inspirational

[00:00:36] for us and our own particular journeys.

[00:00:39] So what do you think about that as an episode of Jenny?

[00:00:42] I think you're looking very visible as well which is good which is ironic because we're

[00:00:48] doing this over and zoom today and I've got my camera off because I'm having a bad

[00:00:51] hair day and I'm stupidly vain.

[00:00:54] But yes, I think with me and not visible, the day of visibility and importance of

[00:00:59] disabilities and the people who inspire us is really important.

[00:01:04] Yeah.

[00:01:05] I wanted to kick off actually if I may before we get into what it is and how it works

[00:01:11] and it's like because we're often here news come out of America in different parts

[00:01:15] of the world how terrible legislation is sweeping across the state and across the world.

[00:01:20] But I actually saw the briefing from March 30th, 2023 so that would be last year a proclamation

[00:01:30] on transgender day of visibility.

[00:01:32] So this is obviously written last year from the briefing room at the White House and Joe

[00:01:36] Biden talks about how transgender American shape our nation so proudly serving in the

[00:01:42] military, curing deadly diseases, holding elected officers running thriving businesses,

[00:01:46] fighting for justice, razor families and much more.

[00:01:49] It's not interesting because what that says is transgender people do with everybody else

[00:01:55] does because actually the fact of that transgenderism precludes from doing those things doesn't

[00:02:01] mean we have the potential to serve, doesn't mean that we're in somehow harmed or difficult

[00:02:05] or dangerous.

[00:02:07] We just want this ability to be as normal as natural as everybody else and I thought that

[00:02:11] was really I thought that was a very inspirational statement.

[00:02:16] Yeah, I mean fair to say you know as crazy as American politics is around trans issues in

[00:02:23] parts of America that I think Joe Biden certainly in last couple of years has made very explicitly

[00:02:29] positive statements for trans people once have not been reflected in this you know with

[00:02:35] our politicians really.

[00:02:37] And it's great to see and it's hard to see and it's absolutely right and I think he's

[00:02:43] pointed some trans people through his cabinet in the past and into seeing roles.

[00:02:48] Yes, which has not happened in this country.

[00:02:52] So yes, yes, but no, I couldn't see it.

[00:02:59] I didn't know how modern the international transgender visibility was because it's really

[00:03:04] only been a thing since, oh, it was in the 2000s wasn't it 2009-2010 something like that?

[00:03:12] I think it's not it's not long.

[00:03:15] Was it a lot longer ago?

[00:03:17] I think it came out of America and I think it was someone a Rachel Krandel.

[00:03:23] Okay, talked about this idea that there should be something else than the transgender

[00:03:29] leader remembrance.

[00:03:31] So that this idea was that March 31st, I think it's March 31st, 2030, 2009 this idea that

[00:03:40] we there's a date to be visible to stand up showing that we're here, showing that we're

[00:03:47] like everybody else.

[00:03:50] And I think sometimes it's being used by activists, sometimes it's being used by trans people

[00:03:54] themselves to be the day where they hatch, isn't it?

[00:03:58] And come out of the egg and be the first day of their transgender life.

[00:04:03] So it's quite it's got quite nice symbolism about it, isn't it?

[00:04:07] It has.

[00:04:07] So I think it's very interesting because in 2009, you know, that was a time where people

[00:04:14] have been to trans as even as a term was beginning to more accept it.

[00:04:17] I mean 2000 we weren't using the term trans so with 2009 there was starting to be that

[00:04:23] awareness.

[00:04:25] But it was what's I think slightly ironic is we needed visibility because you know, there

[00:04:31] weren't people we could see on the television and films, you know, previous to that they've

[00:04:35] been really poor depictions and that visibility, an element saying here we are.

[00:04:40] I think what's interesting now is there's a sort of slightly double edge sword at the

[00:04:43] moment because we all feel terribly visible at times with the discourse that's going on

[00:04:49] and you know, and you know, I've seen that, you know, getting your face on the tally

[00:04:53] and then a reaction which is what happened to me, you know, and there's that part of you

[00:04:59] and just wants to be in it for me, just wants to be invisible as a woman and get along

[00:05:03] with my life, you know?

[00:05:04] So there's a double edge sword but I think it is really important to do and it's part

[00:05:08] of, I think you know when people say about pride and you know, well why are you proud

[00:05:13] because pride is a sin?

[00:05:14] And I've said, I've said, people say that why should be proud of your sexuality?

[00:05:18] Well for so long we were supposed to be ashamed and that's the whole point of pride is reclaiming

[00:05:23] that and saying we're not going to be ashamed for you.

[00:05:25] We are going to be visible.

[00:05:26] We are here and you know, and and and it makes a difference, you know, if I guess if

[00:05:32] I've done nothing in my life to be remembered, I've been visible within my community and

[00:05:38] work and you know, and hopefully that has given maybe all the people a bit of encouragement

[00:05:44] maybe.

[00:05:45] That's you know, if Jenny can do it anybody can do it sort of thing is the way I sort

[00:05:49] of look at it.

[00:05:50] So I think visibility is really important and representation is really important.

[00:05:55] Yeah, I think it's fascinating isn't it?

[00:06:00] Yeah, and it's sort of makes you think about.

[00:06:03] So one of the people I was quite I found very, very, someone different I think.

[00:06:09] So when I found very interesting in their campaign for visibility was Elliot Page and because

[00:06:17] I'd watched them in umbrella in a cabinet academy and in I think it was one of the

[00:06:24] Christian Melbourne films and it was and it's very rare to see someone who's that visible

[00:06:29] as a trans man.

[00:06:31] And it was actually quite, quite inspiring I think.

[00:06:37] And I think because actually we just don't we don't talk about trans men enough and

[00:06:41] I don't want one doesn't seem to be because I know the issue is that it's all about

[00:06:45] blocs and and you know this subjugation of military females such like our trans fam.

[00:06:52] I found that Elliot Page Story absolutely fascinating and it was so dignified.

[00:07:00] No absolutely.

[00:07:02] And it was so beautiful in the way it was handled and everybody handled it well at the

[00:07:06] time and it's such a stark contrast the way that trans females sometimes have their

[00:07:13] things.

[00:07:14] So I was very inspired by that and I remember thinking at the time you know wouldn't

[00:07:17] it be wouldn't it be great about that because Elliot talked I think had a massive interview

[00:07:22] with Oprah didn't they and talked about the benefits of gender of family healthcare.

[00:07:26] And it was really interesting because it wasn't tied up with the sort of JK Rowling stuff

[00:07:32] about trans men and sorry about trans then people.

[00:07:36] It was just about gender and it seemed to be okay to go that way and everybody seemed

[00:07:41] to accept it and it just seemed to be can you hear yourself saying these things?

[00:07:47] When you actually hear what is being said and how you're accepting Elliot Page and then

[00:07:52] you don't seem to accept other trans people.

[00:07:55] And I found that quite a plexing and wonderful at the same time.

[00:08:00] No I agree certainly at the time I mean it's a I've read a lot of what Elliot was written

[00:08:07] about you know previous transition I've been an actor and been made to talk rather

[00:08:14] movingly about how difficult it was to do red carpets and things you know you know

[00:08:19] not who he was and then since then.

[00:08:21] And I think in the program the character transition I've got that right and I think it was

[00:08:28] it was brilliant and yes that visibility because there hasn't been enough visibility of

[00:08:35] trans men and we're getting there same as not enough visibility of non-binary people.

[00:08:43] It is fair to say that you know that is good to have seen that and that way that we said

[00:08:49] before the artistic community and film television of it braised Elliot.

[00:08:53] But then you got people like Jordan Peterson you know who's got a huge platform who made

[00:08:59] a stupid rant about who wouldn't be forced to do it and if you've ever seen the video

[00:09:05] of him talking about Elliot it's just dumb as anything and just hateful just absolutely

[00:09:12] hateful saying he would not be forced to recognize and then starting to use and you do

[00:09:17] get some horrible discourse around trans men, around mutilation and things like that

[00:09:23] that's what they talk about.

[00:09:25] That is there and out there but I think in terms of more mainstream and how it accepted

[00:09:31] and when I taught colleagues about Elliot you know just mention it when we're talking

[00:09:35] about films and telling stuff I think been really well received and I think that's absolutely

[00:09:41] great you know I profile actor transition it and I think the interesting thing is what

[00:09:50] sort of roles he gets going forward and being embraced by the industry would be interested

[00:09:58] I think because that was a clearly show whether this is truly a braised or understood but

[00:10:06] yeah no I think it was a really I think for a lot of young people, a lot of young trans

[00:10:12] men I imagine found that brilliant to see that representation.

[00:10:17] Yeah and someone who's truly talented as well so there are other people who've been much

[00:10:24] more vocal but maybe not so talented at that ground so it's very very interesting here

[00:10:28] that either too obviously super real sort of a real sort of fan of the Matrix series and

[00:10:35] the Bocchowskies of course are famously trans and again people who celebrate their visibility

[00:10:43] in I mean the whole of Matrix 4 was about trans transgender stuff and the and the

[00:10:50] the whole of the Matrix was really about transgender issues when you if you want to look at it

[00:10:55] in to that degree you know and the same with Harry Potter was about being a turf apparently

[00:11:00] I don't know maybe that's the Matrix but the other side and let's just be honest the Matrix

[00:11:08] has made a lot more money so it's much better for them but I think again that's that thing

[00:11:12] about the power of the power of trans people in the media is fascinating there's someone

[00:11:18] the journalist who jk a rolling savagrously India somebody will it be yes yeah again

[00:11:26] someone who's out there fighting going on you know channel five you know the person

[00:11:32] whose face is there you know fighting our corner making our arguments I mean those

[00:11:37] people are taking massive risks for themselves to go out and to literally be visible and in

[00:11:46] this sometimes the most bad part bad pit I should say of sort of arenas media arenas where

[00:11:53] there's just people who are insanely anti trans and Indians sit there and take them all on

[00:11:57] and I just so admire that I think that is you know I find myself quite humbled by that

[00:12:03] I think it's quite amazing it is and it is brave and I think because so many of us have started

[00:12:10] to share away I know I've spoken to people who have been approached to go on raid and TV

[00:12:15] and they just won't because they'd be forced to share a force have its false debate with a

[00:12:20] trans vote and you just don't want to do you just not going to do that I mean we'll put yourself

[00:12:25] through that so I think I mean I guess in my small way I've been particularly active about

[00:12:32] you know I've stood in you know and uh up in front of conferences and things and talked about

[00:12:38] trans rights and stuff and had a bit of you know stuff on social media stuff back so I get how

[00:12:45] difficult that is I'm not sure I'd have the confidence now to um to friends go on on a debate

[00:12:52] or on a new show and argue the case I keep thinking about you when there's phone in some things

[00:12:57] like on radio fathers I keep thinking about maybe phoning up and just saying you know but

[00:13:03] I always tend to slightly but loud which is a shame really but the other thing about the

[00:13:08] point about visibility is just us everyday people being visible yeah because you know and

[00:13:16] there's I suppose there's a little bit of a die car there's a bit of a thing we don't talk about

[00:13:20] in a sense it says maybe I'm more useful um for visibility purposes because I um I don't pass

[00:13:32] as you know one my voice and do I'm I'd people will see that um trans I always think it's really

[00:13:37] interesting when people ask me to go on and join a photo because they want some diversity and

[00:13:42] something there's some publicity as I've had that and I'm thinking well you're doing that because

[00:13:46] actually I look like a trans woman right yeah I'd love to look just like a woman but I look like

[00:13:52] a trans woman that's a reality in my life and I've I've accepted that um and that's probably one

[00:13:59] of the reasons I wasn't getting involved in in in this sort of that bit about just being more visible

[00:14:06] and using that to further further the course for trans rights so I think that's that's

[00:14:13] interesting um I'm not this is not one of those things where you know you dealt the hand you've got

[00:14:19] right and you know there's I've got other friends who are trans you would never know when they could

[00:14:25] live the life and actually I think those are really brave people um who decide to step up to the

[00:14:32] fight when they don't need to you know could they live in life as men and women right uh you know

[00:14:37] and particularly trans women they live in life as women now I think I've talked before about

[00:14:41] somebody I met a conference once who came over to me after I'd spoken and said um she she's

[00:14:48] transition I think in the 70s so this is like when it was really difficult and she'd been living

[00:14:53] alive so much I nobody knew what works we're to solicit in the legal fraction nobody knew she was

[00:14:59] saying she's interested in transition no to new you couldn't tell and she said that she decided

[00:15:04] and she turned my speech wasn't because of my speech but she decided to tell people she was trans

[00:15:09] because she wanted to join that she wanted to be seen and say look there's something in here

[00:15:14] and she wanted to join that struggle if I want to call it that I thought that was so brave because

[00:15:19] she didn't need to do that and I'm not sure I would have if I was living a life as a woman and

[00:15:24] noting you would I have the ironically would have the most I don't even have the courage to say

[00:15:32] this is why I'm when I don't need to it's sort of innuently for me in that respect I think that's

[00:15:37] really interesting so she chose to be visible as a trans person when she didn't need to and I just

[00:15:43] for a mire for that yeah I mean it is fascinating the people because the people who are visible

[00:15:48] the often the people we admire I think is it Charlie Martin I'm really close names

[00:15:54] that we've received a lot of Charlie Martin yeah yeah so again someone who someone who is out and proud

[00:16:01] and and you know I talk to people in the queer community who aren't trans because of some charity

[00:16:06] work I do and and they talk about actually how it's quite hard to be out there as a as a queer

[00:16:12] person and using the modern definition of the term and but you look at what Charlie Martin's doing

[00:16:17] it's absolutely amazing because the transness is runtan center there's no pretenses no hiding

[00:16:23] and it is that lovely standing up and I suppose what you what Charlie Martin has about her is this

[00:16:30] fantastic skill have been able to drive a car very very fast and such like yeah and I wonder whether

[00:16:34] a lot of us feel that we can't be visible because we don't have anything that's remarkable about

[00:16:39] us it doesn't set us apart but I do think small acts of visibility are okay it's about maybe if

[00:16:47] it's the first time you you you're trans and it's the first time you walk down the street on I think

[00:16:52] it's Sunday this year isn't it for the first time just just do it just do it in the daytime once take

[00:16:57] all reasonable precautions and just be visible because for yourself I think it can be quite liberating

[00:17:04] don't you so you don't have to make these grand gestures to be visible small acts of visibility are

[00:17:08] I think the more I think in the bigger picture it's more important yeah representation that we can see

[00:17:14] on the television screens it's important but people live in everyday their everyday lives and

[00:17:19] also just become boring and normal is simple is the aim for me and you know one of the best things

[00:17:25] I've ever done was when I was interviewed I was in Birmingham I was interviewed on on local TV

[00:17:32] middle of a day I think it was there I know a couple of questions by a porter that was some campaign

[00:17:37] we got in with the union and interview don't on camera and nothing to do with maybe in trans

[00:17:44] that wasn't mentioned this was just me Jenny give my opinion right you know that and I thought

[00:17:50] about after that's that's really important to me that is to that yeah people might have thought

[00:17:55] gosh Jenny's got a deep voice and she's quite tall or you know Jenny might be trans what the heck

[00:18:02] and you know so that was really good you know I mean I had to downside when I was in the

[00:18:07] I thought before when I was in the audience of question time yeah and got a and it's got a horrible

[00:18:12] response but in hindsight that was because I was being political and as I read along I was

[00:18:18] I'm going to go at you Kips I was I'm going to go so I was being political so I was leaving

[00:18:23] myself open and asking a question on the television in question time to be to be picked on and so

[00:18:30] I think this part of me sort of rationalized that but yeah I think every day the wax of just

[00:18:36] every day is that of I can't remember the quote but it just also be visible is in a sense a political

[00:18:42] act at the moment you know just saying I am here we're not going anywhere we're not going back

[00:18:47] into the shadows yeah yeah no it's fascinating isn't I find that's really significant

[00:18:54] what you were saying now I think that's that's quite interesting um and I was thinking actually

[00:19:01] sometimes because I've seen it a couple of times uh you'll you'll notice someone on a quiz

[00:19:06] program yeah and you'll look two or three times and you'll think to yourself is is that a trans person

[00:19:13] and and of course sometimes it is sometimes and what you often find is a trans person well then

[00:19:19] out themselves and say well I am trans and and it's quite interesting isn't it where they make it

[00:19:25] they make it something where they didn't have to because I think that's the that's where it becomes

[00:19:29] courageous and um and I was thinking there was there was a there was a idea for

[00:19:37] thing where it was one of the quiz program I think it was brain of Britain or something and I had an

[00:19:42] all all female final and it was a huge fuss because one of those people was openly transgender

[00:19:48] yeah and and and that is that thing about it's it's a real tricky thing isn't it we want to

[00:19:54] just blend in and be dull and boring and and it'd be ignored really but there are some people who

[00:20:00] who for all sorts of different reasons want to make that statement and they want to make sure

[00:20:05] they stand up and say it and and I found myself going on you know I did a couple of radio

[00:20:10] interviews recently saying things like you'll not be surprised to know that I'm a trans woman

[00:20:13] because I've decided it's easier just to say I'm a trans woman then pretend that I am a cis woman

[00:20:19] because because I can't and I won't and and I don't want to because I'm proud of who I am

[00:20:25] but it was rather the but the other side of the interviews you're amazing on on those interviews

[00:20:31] but that was relevant because it was trans but if you were talking about something else I don't

[00:20:34] think personally I don't need to have to you know if we equate female to women and we accept

[00:20:41] that women is a as a sort consists of both cisgendered women and transgender women right yeah

[00:20:47] the women you know and we women consist of tall women short women cisgender women you know

[00:20:53] and transgender women right so you know I think you're absolutely right I mean it is good now I know

[00:21:00] I love only connect to the TV quiz show there's been I think I'm really bad in a sense because

[00:21:06] I'm trying to speculate with somebody who's trans I think there's been a couple of trans I think

[00:21:10] have followed them afterwards trans people on that but it's not it's not mentioned same as we mentioned

[00:21:16] I think we talked about last week about Rose on the great on the pottery throwdown you know nobody's

[00:21:21] mentioned that she's trans and no Rose is trans because I follow her on Twitter and she's an

[00:21:27] activist in that respect but on the program and I love that when the I've seen it with non binary

[00:21:32] contestants as well where it is just accepted as every day because that's not relevant it's not

[00:21:38] relevant in the in the program and and you know so I don't know I don't why get the force over a

[00:21:45] quiz program I'm saying all female there's a woman whose history is at the trans is has any

[00:21:54] you know any for anybody to get that Nick is an twist about it just yes

[00:21:59] onto me and it's really interesting isn't it because only connect is a is an interesting

[00:22:05] to quiz program and and though I remember I'm an absolute fan of it and not it's one of those

[00:22:13] programs isn't it when you get one question right at the end of the end of the episode you think

[00:22:16] it's out of really good result and but I remember there was an episode that there was a bunch

[00:22:22] of online trolls came on just to sort of talk about all the delegate all all the questions said had

[00:22:26] their weird there's you know they're peculiar they look weird there was this start the other

[00:22:31] and then I remember Victoria Coron Mitchell coming on and saying I'll be different and I

[00:22:36] knew her diverse because there's a lot of people on there who are neurodiverse which is often

[00:22:40] a sign of absolute brilliance isn't it you know because you can see things very very cleverly

[00:22:44] from a specific angle and and what I think Richard Osmond came on and it was interesting because

[00:22:50] the trans people were not the issue we people were in blasted for being different but it wasn't

[00:22:56] blasted for being trans the word trans people in there but but I thought that was quite interesting

[00:23:01] it just shows that as a species result of hard wired to look at something and if it's different

[00:23:08] to be frightened of it and therefore to attack it and it's and you think in the stay-in-age we

[00:23:13] would have gone past that but you know clearly not well you know I'm not for our Taiwan

[00:23:20] listen that only connects is quite a sort of it's quite a it's a quite program with their

[00:23:26] teams and it's quite high brown in terms of it's quite difficult but it braces everybody it seems

[00:23:33] really inclusive and there was always you know it's not hysterical where they'll pick the best

[00:23:37] looking people this contestants it's it that sounds really mean it's just whoever's yeah it's

[00:23:44] it's nerd culture I think it's just at its best you know but um but you say that about how people

[00:23:50] fear change I mean the the fuss this last week over the England football strip because

[00:23:56] oh yes absolutely hilarious that anybody about because they slightly changed the

[00:24:03] the the got a depiction of the George Cross which is usually read a puzzle colors on it yes

[00:24:09] but and it's tiny it's not the back of a color it's just a design thing from Nike and I can

[00:24:14] means much well it just got completely jumped upon for these people that fear any change right

[00:24:21] this is you know you know this is unpatriotic this is just ruined and people just getting so

[00:24:29] wound up and it's interesting that these people are so thin skinned over changed I mean the real

[00:24:35] snowflakes really I mean what the heck is that a fuss about right it really isn't I mean you know

[00:24:42] if your patriotism is so fragile that you're triggered by a change in a flag and of course

[00:24:49] people saw he said it was a woe flag and it got somebody said it was bisexual he got sort of

[00:24:55] slightly like a bisexual flag colors but I mean it's what the heck seems like people did

[00:25:01] it just knots but people just wanted and it is that fear of change and it's it's just I finally just

[00:25:09] so disappointed um why would why do we not embrace progress and I don't I find it difficult

[00:25:18] I think you must be your life must be so fragile if you can't if you're so if you're so

[00:25:24] if you pull identities so torn apart by these symbols I think I think I was talking to a colleague

[00:25:32] we both know before I came on to this podcast and we were talking about the difference between

[00:25:38] generations and I think this is what it comes down to isn't that you know you and I have a certain

[00:25:42] generation the person in question was there's a good 30 years in with us and and there are people

[00:25:48] who are 30 years in and hence sort of thing and what we see is every generation rolls forward

[00:25:54] and and the first we make in our generation was the were we're sort of equivalent to the

[00:26:00] fuss as we were making when we were their age and our parents were having a got us for things

[00:26:05] which were peculiar I mean I don't know the fuss when the pill came out and how women shouldn't

[00:26:09] take it and when we're in an abortion clinics and marry stoves and all that sort of stuff we've

[00:26:13] seen huge amounts of change and that changes always all it's against and then it becomes normalized

[00:26:19] because there are usually in a way there'll be another problem around the corner I mean it may

[00:26:24] well be in 10 years time will all be on scripted because we'll be on the east and front fighting

[00:26:30] Russians you know we won't be worried about who we're sending to war then and so and I don't

[00:26:35] need to say that trivialize this other thing but it's a normal cycle of things isn't it for one

[00:26:40] generation to be fight to be to be pushing against the next one it's not they're pushing

[00:26:45] they're pushing together start the way our generation so they can actually have a more liberal

[00:26:50] society potentially just don't want to fly stone walls head on the t-shirts some people are

[00:26:55] going get over it you know get over it and yeah you know the fight for equal marriage I hardly see

[00:27:02] any disc or outside of the real fringe and ultra hardly see any discourse around it now I know

[00:27:08] it's become normal and boring and that's brilliant it's just become normal that people in single sex

[00:27:15] marriages and and that is fabulous and you know and the very nearly didn't get passed in law

[00:27:22] because mine you know so that showed up very quickly in the space of a few years these things

[00:27:27] just become normal so you're right but you know go about to that point we've got to work hard

[00:27:35] to stay visible at the moment because it is so easy I think it is so easy for us to

[00:27:39] to want to run and hide at the moment when yeah you know what you can suffer at the moment and

[00:27:45] what that discourse is you know there's this part you know yeah i mean that's all that's all

[00:27:52] take a small act of visibility and just do something and i think i think random acts of visibility

[00:28:02] are quite nice thing to do and let's not leave it to everybody else and that's just

[00:28:05] yeah i mean the bound of safety and sensableness but you know why not yeah the result of

[00:28:11] limit that time i went up with front door to forgot to put the skirt on what's on my finest you know

[00:28:17] I was certainly visible but very visible until i was sort of invisible that genuinely happened

[00:28:23] and i was dizzy in water so there were some of the breeze that maybe we've got to

[00:28:30] but other than that yes i think i think we need to that's the mad dog lady thing as well i think

[00:28:36] those things are best left unserved i got a scuse i was only 37 i think it was so so now

[00:28:44] well look have a good day of visibility and i shall see you next week yeah we shall see each

[00:28:48] other next week and we'll see you around town if you see us we'll be visible by our friends bye

[00:28:58] thanks for listening to this episode of transvox it's been a joy to have you with us

[00:29:04] if you want to make contact with us you can contact us at julian at transvox.co.uk

[00:29:12] and if you'd like to support the work we do please go to patreon and go to page transvox

[00:29:18] and all of our money goes to our nominated charity and gen you've chosen the charity for the next

[00:29:23] number of episodes which you want to be chosen our charity is called Beyond Reflections

[00:29:28] which is a charity that provides support and counseling to trans people, non-binary people and

[00:29:34] their friends and their families across the UK an amazing charity doing some amazing work really

[00:29:40] important so please if you can give creates and if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections

[00:29:45] it's Beyond High From Reflections.org.uk and but as I say if you'd like to make a contribution to

[00:29:51] what we're doing because we love to help the people who help us again if you've got ideas for

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[00:30:02] it all into julian at transvox.co.uk until the next time goodbye bye bye

[00:30:15] you