Transvox - This week in the news - The NHS Constitution Reforms

[00:00:00] Hi and welcome back to Transvox. It's been a week, it's been a week, it's only seven

[00:00:12] days since we were chatting about neurodiversity and the world seemed a lovely place and here

[00:00:19] we are again another week down the line and Jen has a lot to say so I'm going to basically

[00:00:26] grab a cup of tea and let her issue forth and I'll probably arrive back in about 29

[00:00:31] minutes and wrap things up. So Jen tell us about all the news that's been happening this week.

[00:00:36] Before we start though I did see Kenny Badenock getting well and truly skewered the other day

[00:00:43] on her views that there's been a massive uprising about mental health problems for

[00:00:49] cis girls being harmed by having to share bathrooms with trans people and eventually

[00:00:58] the question was well what's your evidence for this? How many people have you heard of? And

[00:01:02] Kenny Badenock came back and said well I heard it from one person so it's been the nature of

[00:01:09] this week that the question which is what's your evidence is one of the best questions

[00:01:13] you can ever ask one of our beautiful Tory dog whistlers. So anyway stand back, prepare your

[00:01:20] lines. Now you're building me up. Thanks everybody and hi everybody nice to be back and I've got an

[00:01:29] all new microphone so hopefully I'm sounding better than previously although I can't guarantee

[00:01:37] my content to be any better or any more coherent but it might sound a bit better

[00:01:43] but yeah welcome Jill it's great to see you and yeah it feels like every week we go oh god

[00:01:51] this couldn't get worse it's been another bad year for our community there's another bad week

[00:01:56] yes another kick and it comes to a point but I think this is what's been announced so good

[00:02:03] this week is what I feared for a long time might happen if somebody works in the NHS

[00:02:08] and I think it has some very serious ramifications so I think some of you all have heard this but

[00:02:16] the government through the health minister has decided they're going to consult on changing

[00:02:21] the NHS constitution which is I think a guidance document for NHS trusts it's not law

[00:02:28] in of itself but the gist of it is they want to be able to suggest that trans people would

[00:02:36] not be on would be put in side rooms rather than on a single sex ward so mainly we're talking

[00:02:42] about trans women in this respect would go into a side room and that if a nurse if a patient

[00:02:49] didn't want to be treated by a trans woman they could object to that basically if a patient

[00:02:55] said they didn't regard I wanted a female nurse that would they could exclude trans women

[00:03:02] so basically excluding you know marginalising both patients and staff in the NHS as somebody

[00:03:10] who works in the NHS I have to say you know this is pretty devastating

[00:03:19] now I don't think there's support from this within NHS trusts and employers certainly don't

[00:03:24] hear that language but if this did become enshrined in the constitution this is really

[00:03:32] serious and it's funny I said to Jill before come on I said how much am I allowed to swear

[00:03:40] in podcasts I can't quite remember and I feel very sweary but suddenly when you've built me

[00:03:45] up like that I don't know how to swear about it but I'm fucking furious and fucking upset at

[00:03:51] the moment and I've cried I don't mind anybody else because it just feels like yet another

[00:03:58] kick in the teeth and you know and you know and it's hard not to take these things personally

[00:04:05] and it really is I mean you think about what they're proposing they obviously couch this in

[00:04:12] those language of yeah now we're looking after protecting single sex spaces and dignity

[00:04:17] in all this there is obviously you said there's no evidence that there's been any problems caused

[00:04:23] by trans patients non-binary patients being accommodating in their gender their correct

[00:04:30] gender their gender they identify there's no evidence of that anywhere even one even if

[00:04:36] there was a handful it wouldn't be enough to do that but there's been none to mind in

[00:04:41] instance and neither has been any issues raised about any issues with trans patients supporting

[00:04:49] trans staff supporting patients so you can only read into this this is saying because

[00:04:54] what how would it how would you feel and those of you are not if you were put in said you

[00:05:00] can't be in this ward you need to go in a side room okay and the only upshot of that is

[00:05:06] that in some way you're some sort of threat to people well you know okay I think the hospital

[00:05:13] said we're not a threat but some people might feel uncomfortable I mean substitute trans for

[00:05:19] any other protected characteristic and so you need to be put in a side room you need to be

[00:05:23] out of the way your dignity you know and and and of course nobody would tolerate that

[00:05:29] this is about the worst possible news we could have in the NHS the trust I work for it's

[00:05:34] against the policy we've got agreed our clear policy that we support trans people it will be

[00:05:40] a barrier to trans people accessing health care because if they feel they're not going to be

[00:05:45] treated as a woman you know as a trans woman or as a trans man we're treated with respect

[00:05:50] they are less likely to access health care we know that's the case which is going to affect

[00:05:55] it all it is going to do is hit our or readily marginalised community even harder

[00:06:02] it has got no benefits and downsides for us it is purely dogmatic as you mentioned dog whistle

[00:06:11] dogmatic pander in politics and it is scary to me it's scary so it is interesting isn't it that

[00:06:22] I'm always believe in following America I always believe that we do follow the American

[00:06:26] curve I believe the agenda for the supposed woke deep state old you know too is is just a

[00:06:35] distraction from reality and we see it in this country don't we sort of Rishi Sunak standing

[00:06:40] up and lying in a sort of jingoistic way about defense statements I mean pure lies that

[00:06:46] 75 billion pounds were supposed to be signed it's just a lie just brazen and of course

[00:06:53] the Rwanda thing is just brazen and actually the thing to do is when the heat turns up you

[00:06:58] notice there's also a shift in the you also see a shift in the trans rhetoric but the

[00:07:04] thing with the NHS constitution again that's come out but the good thing is this is that

[00:07:09] there is an angry consultation period and it's really important that we actually mobilise

[00:07:15] our communities and start to write and actually find out how to to take part of

[00:07:19] that constitution and sorry consultation and add our voices because the good thing about

[00:07:25] the NHS is that the NHS are the people who will monitor the consultation and

[00:07:30] publish the results it won't be the government and as you said last time Jena when we were

[00:07:36] chatting beforehand people have a habit of ignoring what goes on in the world and so

[00:07:41] it's entirely possible for people in the NHS to ignore what happens the people I've talked

[00:07:45] to in the NHS have been actually clear on one thing which is patient outcomes which is what

[00:07:49] they're measured on and what they've always said to me is that if we can get better patient

[00:07:53] outcomes by treating trans people with respect using the right pronouns and treating them and

[00:07:58] giving them space as they can we'll always do it because it improves our numbers and that's

[00:08:02] what they're really interested in at the end of the day or are we being overly cynical there?

[00:08:07] I don't know I don't think you've been cynical I mean it's not I work in the NHS and

[00:08:12] genuinely I work for two trusts in the community we talk about matters of inclusion and equality

[00:08:19] all the time as a genuine view to treat all communities right I don't think it's

[00:08:27] lips I don't think it's just tick boxing they're not measured against LGBTQ equality

[00:08:33] in the same way as they are race equality in the NHS for instance and yet I've never seen

[00:08:38] either of my trusts waver in wanting to support and I get that across the whole of the NHS when

[00:08:44] I speak to colleagues I'm not saying every manager every person so I don't think I think

[00:08:48] there is a more genuine view because lots of good people in the NHS and it's the right

[00:08:53] thing to do. I am less confident than you that the NHS will go okay you know we don't

[00:09:01] agree with this government because this is very strong steer from the government about

[00:09:05] what they want to see and we're talking about when you start to talk about NHS England and

[00:09:13] not the NHS providers that we all know that we go to but actually bigger bodies and whether

[00:09:18] they are prepared to sort of judge against what the government is giving very strong steer

[00:09:26] very clear what the government feels very clear what the Department of Health will feel

[00:09:30] as part of the government in terms of that the health secretary said it

[00:09:34] also health secretary also said she doesn't think the NHS would be employing equality

[00:09:39] versus inclusion advisors who are there to help better care for patients and ultimately so you

[00:09:48] can see where the government are coming from and you're right I think I mean we need to engage

[00:09:52] in the consultation I personally think I'm really encouraging organizations to get involved

[00:09:58] I think we all need to engage in it but my fear is just as we've seen previously that our voices

[00:10:04] get ignored because we are affected by this you've seen this one in terms of the CAS report

[00:10:10] which didn't even listen to trans voices at all so didn't even consult with them so

[00:10:19] and it was the same on the self-id consultation so people dismissed it saying well that was

[00:10:24] trans activists responding as if somehow we haven't got a voice in this yeah so I think

[00:10:29] we should all do that but I think if you if anybody has organizations particularly of their

[00:10:37] organizations affected by the NHS or I'm involved in unions so I'm hoping my union

[00:10:42] will respond and my professional bodies will respond and anybody that's got you know any

[00:10:48] sort of power in this to respond to that consultation because if we don't win this

[00:10:53] argument and it is enshrined in constitution I think it's going to be very difficult to

[00:10:59] roll that back it won't be law and I think a lot of trusts won't immediately

[00:11:05] change anything but it will give the open door any anybody that is anti-trans so-called

[00:11:12] gender critical but transphobic from where I sit to raise issues and you can see there's

[00:11:17] been raised and you can see it happening and I think we have to it's a fight of our lives

[00:11:23] because once it's enshrined in something like the NHS that trans for instance that trans women

[00:11:29] need to be treated separately than other women that legitimizes it everywhere because they're

[00:11:36] saying this is part in line with the Equality Act and even the cowardly a party I'm a member

[00:11:41] of but the venerally cowardly Labour Party have expressed something similar saying well the

[00:11:47] Equality Act says that because they get into the single sex bases and so forth argument in

[00:11:52] the Equality Act once it's there that will be a green light for anybody to start to do that

[00:12:00] if the NHS does it right so where the Equality Act says you're supposed to deal with these

[00:12:04] matters on a case-by-case basis this constant this change in the constitution will say it's

[00:12:09] not case-by-case basis we can do it as a blanket response and I think this has such

[00:12:15] and I don't even actually know in America in some of the worst states in America that they've

[00:12:19] got policies that say a patient needs to be put a trans patient needs to be separated away from

[00:12:27] the general population. I would get you. Well they've got other things they've got other

[00:12:30] things that are much worse than that in the states. No they have got other things that are

[00:12:33] much worse they agree with you but I don't know that that because it relates to the

[00:12:37] bathroom bills actually weren't successful but they're trying to introduce the bathroom bills

[00:12:41] in America it's the same sort of thing really of saying you know you need to keep trans women

[00:12:47] particularly out of this space right and those were defeated in the main and that's why they

[00:12:53] moved on to different targets and I know there's worse things being said but I'm not sure

[00:12:57] that there's anything I've read in law that says a patient would be a trans patient and

[00:13:02] presumably have single sex wards in America should be put in a maybe everybody's inside

[00:13:07] rooms that's why but yeah I don't know as you can tell I'm it's it's it's it's tricky isn't

[00:13:16] it it's hard to say a way through this but I think practically speaking I think what you've

[00:13:21] said is really useful there if you're in a union you have to pressure your union if you're

[00:13:24] in a professional body I'm in a professional body I'll be pressuring mine if you if you

[00:13:30] can find your way through to the I've just been looking on the gov.uk website that is

[00:13:35] possible to to be able to contribute ourselves I think some of the big LGBT organizations Stonewall

[00:13:42] translucent transaction all these sort of places consortium all these people again look on their

[00:13:47] websites find a way to get into that the thing is there aren't many of us but if enough of us

[00:13:52] make a fuss then you know that's that's quite powerful as it is and there are enough allies

[00:13:57] as well out there to be able to make a fuss on our you know you know on our behalf

[00:14:02] and I think that's part of it it's reaching this is the point where allies need to really be

[00:14:06] allies rather than sort of saying you know I'm going to you know congratulations giving us a

[00:14:11] round of applause because we're very brave what we actually need to do is stand by us a little

[00:14:14] bit now and I think if our lives can do that if we have if we have the same number

[00:14:19] of allies as trans people then we'd be a pretty significant community so you know that's that's

[00:14:24] part of what we do yeah and then you know cisgendered allies if they want to we have

[00:14:28] them want to respond and say I'm not trans I'm cisgendered but I'm more than happy to

[00:14:33] to share ward space I am more than happy to be treated this is nonsense this is

[00:14:38] this is what or not in the state the NHS is in at the moment which is pretty perilous

[00:14:43] financially you know I see this day in day out it's really difficult most COVID

[00:14:49] and this is what the government and this is what this government wants to focus on

[00:14:54] but you're telling me that this is the issue with the day in the NHS is they want to make

[00:14:58] publicity around this you're seriously telling me this is a credible serious political party

[00:15:04] anymore I just it fails me but you know I think the problem I think the key for us is

[00:15:15] I think the key for us is actually to focus on the Labour Party and I know I agree with

[00:15:19] you've said about them but they're coming in and it's possible to move things around

[00:15:23] with organizations are coming the trouble is trans rights are very very long way down the

[00:15:28] list of things which are broken in this country need fixing and things will be more broken

[00:15:32] because this is sort of scorched earth thing taking place now we're just part of that

[00:15:39] we can see the move working against you know we can see the anti-females like ice as well

[00:15:45] this is a bigger thing than just as trans people but the trouble is some of our gender critical

[00:15:51] feminist colleagues in the world they don't see that they're next in line and once because

[00:15:59] they think they're gaining power from this but they're not what they're doing is

[00:16:02] their legislation has been informed and enforced which will actually be used to

[00:16:06] affect other people queer people next it's on the way and I think again if we can

[00:16:11] we can figure out and get queer people involved in this fight so much the better

[00:16:15] because actually it was a short step from saying that sexual orientation rights will also be

[00:16:20] be lost next and actually do you know what it's not far away from disability rights

[00:16:26] moving as well it's very interesting that I was in a building the other day that didn't

[00:16:30] have disabled access this is a new building brand new didn't have a place for a wheelchair

[00:16:35] to come up and down I mean you know in this day and age this is really interesting

[00:16:39] and I think there are minority community after minority community after minority community

[00:16:43] just losing their rights left right and center now the only people that can do anything about

[00:16:49] this are they the late party love them I hate them and I think the vast majority of people

[00:16:52] see them as the tories in a red with a red rose but like but just think about what Blair

[00:16:58] and Brown did achieve in the time that they were there love my hate them they did do

[00:17:03] they did do some good stuff for all of different communities including the 2010 act

[00:17:09] it's really interesting you're absolutely right and you know look I'm not saying that you know

[00:17:14] there's plenty I've had plenty of support from people within the Labour Party it's a it is a

[00:17:19] broad broad church on this I think they're being cowardly on this then the health I actually

[00:17:24] think the health secretary is not supportive of trans people shadow health secretary me

[00:17:27] West Street in his made comments before I don't think he's an ally he's changed his mind

[00:17:31] doesn't he he's ex the worst thing about people with no values is they change their

[00:17:34] mind no I think simple as that I think I think that that's the case and yes you're right

[00:17:43] it would certainly be an improvement on this but whether they would be brave enough to move

[00:17:47] to move back on this your point about overall equality across the board is absolutely right

[00:17:53] because on top of this there the government are saying we don't need to do EDI work well you

[00:18:00] know we do yeah so we know in the NHS that for instance if you look at staff we know in the NHS

[00:18:07] that we have something called the workforce race equality scheme that that if you're black

[00:18:11] you're less likely to get a job after being shortlisted and you're white in many trusts

[00:18:15] in many areas and that's because there's just biases and shine cultures and things like that

[00:18:22] so there's a lot of work to do we know the same for disabled people staff and disabled

[00:18:27] patients there's a huge amount of work to do but this government is saying that it's very time

[00:18:31] because it's nailed its colours to this anti-woke idea that we need to do away with EDI work

[00:18:38] equality diversity inclusion work and there's many brilliant and it costs such a small fraction

[00:18:45] of an NHS budget as to be almost negligible but the positivity it brings to the fact that

[00:18:51] we're reaching we're trying to make things better for those communities poor health outcomes

[00:18:55] is so important and then it just trusts get that and the local authorities get yet

[00:18:59] that but the government is saying we don't need to do this anymore because we're all anti-woke

[00:19:04] and this is just woke nonsense you know but there's another side to the argument here

[00:19:08] because you're in that sector you've been there all your life i've been the private

[00:19:12] sexual in my life never really worked in the public sector and broadly businesses do what's

[00:19:17] right to make more money they're in you know what they and then what they wanted to first

[00:19:22] make workforce because actually they need people who are bright i'm doing a project at the moment

[00:19:30] with a group of highly skilled people and these are people at the forefront of medical

[00:19:35] research in the private sector sorry about that they are and of the 70 sort of senior

[00:19:41] scientists 60 on neurodiverse and 30 and non-gender non-gender conforming

[00:19:49] wow now these are people at the forefront of this area of um i don't really want to say what it is

[00:19:56] of medical research so yeah so so organizations organizations don't care about this stuff because

[00:20:03] all they care about is to have a good team to have the best talent can we make the best

[00:20:07] product can we sweat the asset the hardest and can we get the best return however having said

[00:20:13] that a lot of the rainbow washing and dog whistling work around pride this year has

[00:20:18] disappeared at the corporate agendas now and now what's interesting is that if you go on linkedin

[00:20:23] some of the sort of the um sort of trans edi speakers are all complaining has very little work

[00:20:29] this year because actually organization has dialed down on the amount of um i i think so i think

[00:20:34] this is a space i think this is the part of backlash that's happened in in america

[00:20:39] and this is about that attack on community now i have a lot of this strange view on that

[00:20:43] i agree with you a lot of all organizers no it's but no stop this agreement we're supposed

[00:20:49] to be having a row no no i agree with you on one part of it and this is where i'll go to

[00:20:53] so um a lot of companies do do rainbow washing have the pride symbol the rainbow symbol um

[00:21:00] cynically because they don't really care but actually i think that means a lot because it

[00:21:04] means they're doing that because they know it gets them more customers and then that means

[00:21:09] they know it's the right thing to do so they've got fiduciary responsibility to for profits so

[00:21:16] ultimately i understand that private organizations do that well the fact that they understood that

[00:21:21] being positive um by just putting rainbows on everything okay you can you can say they're

[00:21:26] being cynical about it and i know a lot of people say we shouldn't do it if you don't care

[00:21:30] i don't care if they care the fact that they're doing it because they know it will

[00:21:34] improve their bottom line says a lot about our society's progression yeah they know that people

[00:21:40] now they've stopped rolling back on that that is because they now see maybe that some of the

[00:21:48] tide has turned in terms of public opinion and we know that so there's a regular survey

[00:21:53] about attitudes i think towards trans people in the public that gets produced and about how

[00:21:59] positive and negative and those inevitably have swung more negative views towards trans people

[00:22:05] i think it's still just about positive overall over the last seven or eight years because of

[00:22:10] course the relentless battle but if you go back so the fact that they stop and doing that is

[00:22:15] really worrying even if they were doing it cynically just because they want to make money

[00:22:19] i don't really care about that the fact that they're starting to do that says says something

[00:22:23] that we should be worried about i know a lot of people think well they shouldn't just use

[00:22:27] our rainbow flag on things i've heard people say that and i take the point on that because

[00:22:31] they don't really care i think what it demonstrates is more important about whether

[00:22:36] they care or not it would be my take on it and i think it worries me because you can see

[00:22:41] i think the turning point was the good light where that you know the influencer that they

[00:22:48] had you know that uh dylan morvaney yes and then there was a you know because lots of

[00:22:56] organizations will do that right but they thought nothing of it positive thing to do it was just

[00:23:00] one and there was this backlash because some attitudes had changed to the extent it did

[00:23:05] affect their share price and then they stopped doing it right yeah and and i think that's had

[00:23:10] that knock on effect now that i think people are rolling back from that and that has to be

[00:23:15] worrying to me it just has to be it's very it's very complicated isn't it because you've

[00:23:20] got you've got situations in the states where um you've got this massive fight back now by

[00:23:25] um on the road versus wade thing on anti-abortion rights and social like abortion rights

[00:23:32] and i'm very i am always more confident here i don't know why i suppose because i am um it

[00:23:37] doesn't really matter what is it and i do think this this is like a pendulum this will

[00:23:42] will swing back yeah but but i also know this about gutless um how ugly people is that

[00:23:50] if you apply pressure to them they'll cave and so i mean i've just seen something on um

[00:23:55] um an interview with um susanna thingymajig from gmb um interviewing kia starmer who's

[00:24:03] rolled back on trans rights is back in rosie duffield duffield now yeah and that was an

[00:24:09] article in pink news it's always worth a good it's always worth a read indeed for a

[00:24:13] completely skewed view of the world which is great actually why and why not yeah um lovely

[00:24:18] um but but you know my point is start complaining to the labor party they're only

[00:24:23] interested in votes and actually they um whilst there's a lot of thing about thing about women

[00:24:29] is that they're not sort of awake yet to this side so they've got a lot of gender critical

[00:24:33] people and you've got a lot of trans people and this is a fight between two highly minorities

[00:24:38] on either side of the political divide the vast majority of cis women i am pretty sure

[00:24:45] don't care even you know even on women's hour women's hour um they were talking

[00:24:49] about some of this stuff and people will ring and saying why are you talking about

[00:24:52] this we're not interested we've got more important things to worry about why are we talking about

[00:24:56] cost of living crisis why are we talking about the fact that ukraine's about to go down the

[00:25:00] toilet why are we talking about what's happening in china what the hell on it why are we not

[00:25:03] talking about bloody donald trump i mean we've got some bigger issues to fight or to worry

[00:25:09] about this time next year jenny we might have a pair of battle fatigues on and well

[00:25:14] i'll be marching to war and you'll be directing operations from a command center

[00:25:19] somewhere in the stoke area and this is all about context isn't it the world's a very odd

[00:25:26] place at the moment and there's a lot no it's horrific you just see the what's happening in

[00:25:30] gaza i mean that exactly jenna's loud in that and public opinion is changing on that and that's

[00:25:36] you know that's you're absolutely right they're all bigger they're bigger picture issues but

[00:25:40] they're always bigger picture issues but this is the fight of you're absolutely right you know

[00:25:45] there is a pendulum things progress will might attend this part of me that thinks progress will

[00:25:50] always progress and you know it's inevitably that eventually will but it might be decades

[00:25:55] it might be decades we you know we're rolling back but it might not be just think it's only

[00:26:00] 20 it's 10 years 2014 wasn't it since uh i can't remember the person's name one the

[00:26:06] trans person one eurovision trans people were everywhere queer as folk was out everywhere

[00:26:11] trans people here everywhere winning everything doing everything and it's almost like somebody

[00:26:16] woke up one day and you know my views you know what i think was the trigger to this backlash

[00:26:22] and um but once that happened we've been getting a backlash ever since we have no no no i think i

[00:26:29] think i think i think this does date back to the consultation this is why political left and

[00:26:33] right become muddied in the in this country so it was a conservative government uh you know

[00:26:40] uh therese amaze government that wanted to improve things for trans people and consulted

[00:26:44] on that with really positive and it got a positive response but it gave a platform for the

[00:26:50] embedded anti-trans part of the uk particularly um in parts of the of the left

[00:27:00] but it wasn't just anti-trans it was it woke people up we are talking about the same

[00:27:05] so we are talking about self-id here which is our biggest biggest argument point isn't it because

[00:27:11] i fundamentally believe this has been the um the biggest problem for us all and i think

[00:27:17] it's certainly been the catalyst i agree with you i agree with you that it has been the

[00:27:21] catalyst as you know this is i mean germany just introduced just introduced self-id why

[00:27:28] why are we what's why are we saying this is but i agree with you six months time well i

[00:27:33] mean they've got the rise of the far right in germany at the moment no but they've just

[00:27:36] introduced positive law the issue the issues have gotten this is where i i agree with you

[00:27:41] that that's a point in time that you can trace where things have definitely spiralled for us

[00:27:46] yeah it has gone it has been point after point and that's been replicated in a in america

[00:27:52] and it's been put i agree with you on that and we that should have been one the argument

[00:27:55] was one and the consultation and this is why the left and right are working it was the

[00:28:00] david caramere's government introduced equal marriage i get that but the thing is with these

[00:28:04] things with with with equality in progress generally you're introducing laws that make

[00:28:09] things better there's not really been laws introduced that made things worse it's just

[00:28:15] things were worse pardon section 28 i think i think of lots of things that have been

[00:28:20] introduced that makes the only the main one i can think about was section 28 that was

[00:28:24] brought in in 1988 that stopped schools saying it's okay to be gay right basically and that

[00:28:30] took till 2003 uh that's the one sort of in my lifetime law that was passed that said these

[00:28:38] people need to be treated differently these people are dangerous you know this is this

[00:28:43] threatens to introduce laws and changes and go back on the that is going to take a hell

[00:28:49] it'll take more than a couple of parliaments to reverse because once that decision has been

[00:28:55] taken this is not my improving things this is about rolling something back and i think that

[00:28:59] is much more difficult personally that once these things are introduced but social movements

[00:29:03] travel faster than legislation so basically what's happening at the moment the social movement was

[00:29:08] traveling really fast and then legislation caught up and then and then and then what i tried

[00:29:13] to do in a very clumsy clumsy and clunky way was to enshrine something in law which

[00:29:17] is lovely but without any plan to make it work so we had a self-idea fantastic i will agree to

[00:29:23] i don't i think but now i can stick a wig on and go into a toilet what now now we're going to

[00:29:27] wake up the just they're going to wake up more than non-gc people we're going to wake up

[00:29:32] people who think that's a mad idea and you know i think i always thought there's been a

[00:29:36] higher barrier to pass than than that however however however social movements always do

[00:29:42] travel faster than legislation so it is possible that legislation will happen but then social

[00:29:46] movement that's why laws changed look at 1968 the social movement was there and it wrote

[00:29:51] communism look at the 80s with the lec the guy with a polish name lec lec lec one answer thank

[00:29:58] you very much um so that's how social movements work and the thing is for us the legislation

[00:30:03] can change we not and they go against us but it's about constantly campaigning keeping going

[00:30:08] being normalized and the social movement will swing and then the legislation will change again

[00:30:13] may it will do but it will be definitely it may be decades it was decades for section 28

[00:30:18] it does matter because i'm not going to live more than many decades right i i take you i

[00:30:25] miles older than you i've always said so you know you can prove to me i'm not immortal

[00:30:30] and until such point that's evidently not the case i thought you're gonna upload yourself

[00:30:34] to the internet um i i look i i get your point i get your point i mean we agree

[00:30:41] i think a little bit well i think we do agree in parts of self-adding because it's not been

[00:30:45] countries have introduced it had no problems it's not been rolled back it is a sensible piece of

[00:30:50] legislation because it affects nobody but makes that trans people flies earlier it was there's

[00:30:53] a particular issue in this country with with parts of movement had been quite dormant but

[00:30:58] had already expressed the view the anti-trans views were expressed back in the 80s and it

[00:31:02] gives them the chance to come out and sadly because of the institutions in the uk in terms

[00:31:08] of the press and media which is what makes the uk different i think than other countries

[00:31:12] that's where we lost it so the press and media were were overwhelmingly against us not people

[00:31:17] people didn't care and if they did care they were generally pretty supportive it was the press

[00:31:23] of media that drummed up this fear and hatred um that is nonsense and the fear so i agree with

[00:31:28] you that and i i you are right younger people get it but we have to be really serious about

[00:31:34] this battle we have to be really serious about trying to this these things not change because

[00:31:39] once the equality act's changed once things are enshrined is going to be very difficult

[00:31:44] to overturn them and you're right we need to campaign against the allies we have in the labor

[00:31:49] party i know plenty of people that have left the party young people that have left the party

[00:31:54] because of their failure on trans rights younger people do not see legislation can change

[00:32:00] overnight with political will if you remember two months ago there was no legislation to pay the

[00:32:06] post office posts of post office and so post up all the post office employees who were absolutely

[00:32:14] trying to think of a non-swear word

[00:32:18] majored by what the post office and horizon and for just horizon we were out to swear they

[00:32:23] were they were fucked over you already got that i just remembered we were like to swear

[00:32:27] but they were completely knackered by that and within six weeks four weeks two weeks

[00:32:33] legislation being unchanged gone it is it is but legislation can be but legislation but

[00:32:42] something to overturn various legislation is not so you're right because that so i can't

[00:32:48] think of any example where laws been passed and there are laws been passed very quickly

[00:32:51] after that dangerous dogs what do you mean the dangerous dogs that came in and was

[00:32:57] amended within i think it's amended but not overturned well effectively overturned by actually

[00:33:03] being saying that this isn't right so we have to work to change it to this yeah maybe it was

[00:33:07] workable but that's making it workable afghanistan and go there um the gurkhas

[00:33:13] when the gurkha legislation hong kong legislation yeah don't get me started

[00:33:19] you have familiar examples but i am not confident this isn't i know i'm doing

[00:33:24] this is umaki i'm just i'm just lying in a bare face way you're not and i mean and i always

[00:33:32] need to be counterpoint to my um con my malignant pessimism on this issue and i guess

[00:33:39] that's partly i think you know i do i weirdly take these things very personally which is

[00:33:44] it's weird when what they're what a government is doing and the government you hate is doing

[00:33:48] to you and taking it very personally i mean it's the way collateral as a charity we support

[00:33:54] and what i do in my day in a j job this is undoing seeking to undo 10 years with work

[00:34:01] yeah i'm doing where i'm talking to people about improving things in the nhs and i'm gonna

[00:34:06] have to but it's you see this is the thing i don't think it's undone this is the thing

[00:34:10] about social causes social movements something about feminism feminism has has endured um yes

[00:34:18] this these are philosophies and once you've won the argument they're won forever

[00:34:21] so the fact that legislation comes in and changes i mean the biggest the biggest thing

[00:34:25] well blimey i can't believe i'm going to say this but if you think about the sort of capitalist

[00:34:30] paradigm here we go spot the doctor in the room um this is what's actually behind a lot of

[00:34:36] this stuff you know a lot of what's going on in the uk at the moment is about how do you

[00:34:40] make incredibly wealthy people a little bit more wealthy and we're just collateral damage they

[00:34:46] don't care there's no that's all it is i mean you know i've as you know my political views

[00:34:52] are different to yours and and i find i find myself very homeless at the moment in terms of

[00:34:58] politics but um i forgot what i was saying now these social trust the social movement

[00:35:04] no i work you've done over the last 10 years has never been wasted you know i i

[00:35:09] i i agree with you and and you know stop it i i i i agree with you to the extent that yes

[00:35:19] look i i do if i look at long term i think you know progress will come and it will as i said to

[00:35:25] you younger generations get it is just not going to be an issue but we are but it'd be wrong

[00:35:29] for us to not say we're not in a battle of one of the most serious battles we as a

[00:35:33] community that we've been in on this i i genuinely i genuinely believe this threatens um this if it

[00:35:41] happens in the nhs threatens to undo all the good work that the that the equality act you know

[00:35:48] and what was proposed on gender recognition it will undo that i don't know how it's workable

[00:35:54] upon them i do disagree with you here because i don't think we're in a battle

[00:35:58] and i think actually it's the wrong narrative to be in a battle because then we have

[00:36:01] polarity and then we have sides be my counselor for a moment and i'm going to dance on a pinhead

[00:36:08] here i think this is a negotiation and i think that's what's actually going on here

[00:36:13] and i think that's what's really going on behind the scenes is a negotiation for what's

[00:36:16] going on and as soon as we stop turning these it's like the battle against cancer

[00:36:21] then there's always winners and losers what we have to do is we have to adapt we have

[00:36:24] to figure out how to roll forward if we entrench our battle lines all jump into one

[00:36:30] side of the thing and the other side are doing the same things we never meet in the middle

[00:36:33] this is not a battle this is actually just the ongoing swing of the pendulum and things need to

[00:36:40] be negotiated to make our lives better i am sure that without the battle mentality we'll

[00:36:45] be able to get more of our own way i really do maybe maybe there is a different way of

[00:36:50] expressing where i think i mentioned i don't believe this is a two-side but argument battle

[00:36:57] or whatever negotiation that we've brought this is people who want to see us eradicated

[00:37:02] there are people who want to see us not exist there are people in this country in america and

[00:37:07] in this country who said i mean the famous quote was that trans people are a problem in

[00:37:12] the same world was one of the academics the anti-trans economic said or something to those

[00:37:16] lives there are people who do not want us to exist that are that will talk will couch to

[00:37:22] what they say in language like genuine concerns that's true but not everybody

[00:37:27] but you're you can't talk about not everybody but it's these people are these people are

[00:37:31] winning at the moment yeah that's all that's the pendulum and we were winning and now

[00:37:36] we're yeah i mean you're right in terms of battle isn't the right thing but very hard not

[00:37:41] to see that when your very being your very validity um you have and this is why i'm at

[00:37:48] the mental health of our our community has suffered this last seven years you know it's

[00:37:54] been there's articles on this that are the met is affecting the mental health of a community

[00:37:58] and and yet where the battle is the right um language i think you i i tend to think you're

[00:38:03] right on that and maybe it's a different way of expressing it it feels to me like as an

[00:38:08] actor it feels to me like a battle feels to me like we're under siege week in week out

[00:38:13] and that's that that's a sort of language and then somehow this is where we need allies we need

[00:38:19] to gather our resources i think this is where i've been trying to think about how do we actually

[00:38:22] respond to this because i think generally most i still think a lot most people aren't against us

[00:38:28] on the these issues but you know how do we gather that when we have no power as a community

[00:38:33] we do not have power we never gather it by sitting in a corner yelling and screaming and

[00:38:38] throwing you know crap back at the other side what matters is you have to think about

[00:38:42] you never engage with the people who are anti you because they you never can so it's how do

[00:38:46] you work on the willing in the middle and they're the key and the good thing for us is that where

[00:38:51] one extreme the gc mobber at the other extreme and the vast majority of people in the uk

[00:38:56] the other 73 million are in the middle and the vast majority of them just don't care yeah i i

[00:39:03] agree with you although the idea of saying that in terms of anybody that says themselves

[00:39:09] is in any way extreme is just missing the point we're just talking about making our

[00:39:14] our own validity we're not we're not extremely not no we're not extreme views but we're different

[00:39:18] it's what i'm talking about is the numbers is what i would argue is jk roland is an extremist

[00:39:28] i am not an extremist on this issue now she would have i imagine saying something

[00:39:33] completely different i imagine it's fair to but i think he's right about

[00:39:39] because i'm talking about literal numbers of how many trans people are on one side

[00:39:43] yeah how many gc and feminism on the other side we're probably the same numbers at the end

[00:39:48] of the day but for me it's how do we engage with those people who are willing to listen

[00:39:54] and i think that's the key and we and the way you engage with people who are willing to

[00:39:58] listen is to present a cogent interesting arguments and the best it's that classic thing

[00:40:02] you know i've done speeches in halls and and then know you have where people have said at

[00:40:07] the end of it you're just like us i said yes why do you think we're any different we're not

[00:40:13] out there you know or shoving poo through someone's letter box we just want to live

[00:40:18] we just want to be unremarkable i just want to let anybody that's done that

[00:40:22] well that's how points that's the thing it's like 96 genders it's like chest feeding it's

[00:40:27] like all this bizarre nonsense but you you you're giving examples then that come from the media

[00:40:35] that they want to hit us with i take your point on but it's it's it's it's not i disagree that

[00:40:42] it's not point off is is rubbish but i i just know nobody's ever said there's 96 genders

[00:40:49] nobody has ever said that but you paint that nobody's ever said that rubbish the whole thing

[00:40:56] the whole thing is that the narrative which has been built because we're having a battle

[00:41:00] is that one it's a look this goes back to 2016 when one side spewed a load of lies and the other

[00:41:06] side spewed a load of stuff as well some of which was a bit nonsensical but this is where

[00:41:11] this is the battle this is how the battle has evolved it's the same as what happened in 2016

[00:41:15] was going to my language independence the battle again you know this what we do is we just

[00:41:20] shout lie at each other and actually what happens is we no one knows what the truth is

[00:41:24] 96 gender genesis is the most ridiculous thing ever but it was being used today chest feeding

[00:41:30] was being used today because it's got its garbage rubbish no one's got that of course it is so

[00:41:37] and that's the thing it's the thing like um the person did on the women's hour with

[00:41:41] emmy badner what's your evidence who actually how many people have actually complained in the

[00:41:47] nhs about about having trans people in wards i was just looking at the data before i went on

[00:41:53] i think it's on the finger is a one finger yeah it's it's tiny tiny numbers and of course there

[00:41:59] will be there will be some people who are threatened by it i understand that i know

[00:42:03] someone who works in the prison service they have all sorts of problems how to to manage the

[00:42:07] trans issue in prisons because actually you're trying to give equal rights to a group of people

[00:42:12] there's there's three or four of them and everybody else's rights are infringed by the

[00:42:17] three or four people and and that's wasn't ever the point of the equalities act the

[00:42:22] public equality is after we need to find a way where everybody's rights are understood but

[00:42:27] what's what's been perceived is that our rights have been other people's rights have

[00:42:31] been trampled on to accommodate ours now that's the point that's not us saying that is it

[00:42:37] it's the perception no of course it is um and of course if they're the

[00:42:42] i've started ranting now yeah i've got i knew i'd get you there

[00:42:48] i'll get you i'll get you on the barricades with the placards at some point jill

[00:42:51] you know i think i'll get you there what frustrates me is i've reached the stage in my

[00:42:55] life where i've got nothing to lose i'm very happy to have the barricades nobody wants me

[00:42:59] because because they do they need to hoist me up there but i mean you know yeah i think look

[00:43:06] oh this has turned into a therapy session it's time it is it always it always does and

[00:43:11] you're absolutely right and we have to persuade and it's important to get our lives on side

[00:43:15] and this is me and you having this conversation i i've been speaking to this within one my

[00:43:20] big employers today about this i've got nothing but support to say look what we need you to

[00:43:24] if you i mean the way i put this is if you believe this is not the right thing to do

[00:43:28] for our patients and our staff you don't have to agree with me but if but if you do agree

[00:43:34] with me and we as an organization i got real positive this is one of the NHS Trusts i work

[00:43:39] for i'm very proud to work for them and you know i'm proud that they gave that positive

[00:43:44] response and they support what we do and that's that is my approach when that is should be our

[00:43:49] approach when we're talking to allies persuade them actually look if you think this is the

[00:43:53] right thing you know um to do this is me and you and this is me being really angry and

[00:44:00] you know i've spent through the hours you know i've had a i've had a cry about this

[00:44:04] because i do take it personally i do take it seriously and i do take it personally and it

[00:44:08] feels like another kit and now i've been through this stage of grief where i'm just being i don't

[00:44:13] know what all the stages of grief are on these things so you'll tell me yeah yeah i'm

[00:44:19] i do all those right and this is me that will never happen oh my god it's happened oh i don't

[00:44:24] know what bit is just my ghost well i think it's important we discuss this and i think

[00:44:28] it's important i take your point but i do think it's important we make sure we mobilize

[00:44:33] consultation period because if we can get a body of opinion saying this is not the right thing to

[00:44:39] do and you're right maybe this could be headed off um you know and maybe my worst fears won't

[00:44:46] come true so to quote alistair campbell's book so what can i do so get on with that government

[00:44:53] consultation find your union your local body your local mp particularly a labor mp

[00:45:00] and start sending letters in and letters are really wonderful in emails because they're written

[00:45:04] in the tracks and they're evidential and that's really really important don't ring up don't talk

[00:45:09] to people don't say because i've been in a meeting my view counts it's got to be written

[00:45:12] down and we'll get through this and um and what you have to remember genv is this the

[00:45:19] pendulum in 2014 or whenever it was was in our direction now it's against but what's going

[00:45:24] to be like in another 10 years you're still going to be here i'm going to be basically

[00:45:28] father so on that note i doubt that you'll outlive me by a mile july i'm obviously convinced of that

[00:45:37] and only 27 what would alistair campbell do i was just going to say um sex up a dosse on

[00:45:43] him on uh on web but maybe not let's not let's not go there i know i do quite like a lot

[00:45:49] of things he says now i think he's a very very interesting podcaster as well so um we need

[00:45:54] to go because there are people who are literally thinking when will this ever end

[00:46:01] so i'm going to say good night and i'll see you at the next one we'll see you all soon

[00:46:05] thank you jill you take care bye bye thanks for listening to this episode of trans vox it's

[00:46:15] been a joy to have you with us um if you want to um make contact with us you can contact

[00:46:21] us at jillian at trans vox dot co.uk and if you'd like to support the work we do please go to

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[00:46:35] jen you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes which one have you chosen

[00:46:39] our charity is called beyond reflections which is a charity that provides support

[00:46:45] and counseling to trans people non-binary people and their friends

[00:46:48] and their families across the uk an amazing charity doing some amazing work really important

[00:46:54] so please if you can give great and if you want to go and have a look at beyond reflections

[00:46:59] it's beyond-reflections.org.uk and uh but as i say if you'd like to make a contribution

[00:47:04] to what we're doing because we love to help the people who help us again if you've got

[00:47:08] ideas for um the show things you'd like to ask us questions comments applause or brick

[00:47:15] feel free to send it all in to jillian at trans vox dot co.uk until the next time goodbye bye