Transvox - Social Media Musings

[00:00:07] Hey me ducks, how are you doing? Hi everyone. Welcome back to Transvox. What a slick intro. You can't tell it's like our 15th pod and we are just so slick. I'd forgotten the name of the podcast and who I was. I think it's the hormones. Welcome everyone to Transvox. There you are. Yeah, that's how you do it. You see, you should do this every time. And I'll say, hello pets.

[00:00:36] Yeah. Right. Well, have you had a great week? Yeah, it's been good. It's been well, you know, it's been a week. It's been a whole seven days. It's had every one of those days in it. Do you remember that Waldorf and Statler sketch on the mupper shows when they say, that was great. No, it was okay. That was actually all right. No, it was terrible. Boo. Yes, I sort of remember them as always keeping our references up to date for the kids. Yes.

[00:01:04] Stop it. I think we've given up on the kids, the dad kids. Right. Well, anyway, today we are going to reference dad kids because we're going to be talking about social media. Now, we really are going to be talking about social media and there's no distracting me. So I think we should talk about the benefits and risks and pitfalls of social media and how to make it work for you. And in particular, there's a ton of trans useful resources out there, useful groups and such like.

[00:01:33] And I know you use different social media to me, so it should be quite interesting. So first of all, I mean, we all know the benefits and risks. It's great. It's access. The Internet's there. When I first started out in this strange game of trans, and I think you're probably saying there was no Internet, you used to have to communicate through personals and terrible magazines. Do you remember Trans Living all those years ago? That was a great read.

[00:01:55] I don't, to be honest, I don't remember using them. I remember some of the magazines that were there, but I don't remember converting through them. You have to be careful which ones you read. Yes. Yes. Yes. I remember back in the day that, well, there wasn't really a trans, wasn't really a thing.

[00:02:14] It was the odd ad in the back of a man newspapers or something. The only thing I ever saw that was trans related was those ads used to get in the Sunday newspapers for, was it that transformations places? There was about one in Houston and one in Berry, I think, where you can go and dress up for the day. I went to one of those. Did you go? I visited the shop. I didn't know. I was already post transition because it's around the corner from Houston Station.

[00:02:40] I was curious, but it wasn't for me. But yeah, we're talking, what, 90s now, 80s and 90s, really, I guess. Stephanie Summon. She was actually quite a famous trans person herself. And it was actually quite nice to have some way, whilst it was a shop, there was some way you could go and dress. And there's lots of TV dressing services available now. There's lots of people all around the country. Some TV chicks have them all advertised, don't they? And for some people, it's a nice way to experiment, isn't it?

[00:03:10] And I know it can be linked with the sort of sexual size of cross-dressing and transvestitism. But some people actually, it's the first chance to express the gender, to actually test whether this is a sexual thing or something deeper sometimes. Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with, you know, there's places in existence. You're right. I mean, it seems odd now to think I would pop into somewhere like that.

[00:03:33] Because it seems, because we've all moved on, you know, trans has become much more wider and understood than the narrow confines that it was then. You know, so it's interesting. But yeah, but before media, the first, I don't know about you, the first internet part that I found were, was chat rooms. Yeah. So the one I found a community on was one called UK Angels. Oh yeah, I remember that.

[00:04:00] There was a chat, there was a webpage or something that had a chat room on and you would go, I would log on to it through the, almost through the night and made, made a couple of friends on there and actually made a friend that I've met. I've met, I've met a few times somebody else that's also transitioned. Joanne, who was amazing, I met her in the early days and I visited her twice. She lives up north. We were both in a similar position, you know, wanting to transition, struggling to think it was possible.

[00:04:29] So that was my first community. First time I came across a troll and they were called trolls even back then. So this was, this would be what, late nineties, 99 or something that, that people would come into the chat room just to usually dispel religious stuff at us. Mainly say you're all going to hell and that was it. And we'd just laugh at them, you know, they're just when they come in and say that and go away. And this is well before trolling became a thing that we all understand now. They were just sort of called trolls. So that must have been where it came from.

[00:04:58] But yeah, that's before social media was a thing that was probably in the days of almost dial up maybe even. But yeah. Well, you're reminiscing now. Well, I think. I am. You can see me going away in a reverie then. I can see you there. Yeah. So I think, I think one of the, I mean, people maybe, I mean, there's the meta group with, you know, Facebook and meta and Instagram. And I mean, I still find Facebook really useful.

[00:05:24] I think there's, there's a lot of good support groups on there. I still am a member of half a dozen. There's one that's particularly good around male to female, female to male hormones. And there's actually quite a lot of very good, seems to be clinically well-researched articles around hormones, hormone use, such like. And I think I've used that and I've been a member for many times is trans support, trans living.

[00:05:52] There's lots of chat rooms again, but using the features on messenger and such like to be able to connect people. And I think it's, for some people, it's quite nice just to be able to have that ability to reach out and say, hey, I've got a doctor's appointment tomorrow. What should I say? You know, that's a sort of a feature. It's a lot about, I've got this, what do I do?

[00:06:11] Because I think there's a lot of people who can, they can contact official groups, but sometimes you just need to know, you know, literally what's the, what are the words I should use? Rather than what's the professional approach, but, you know, what do I say? And what do I say if they say this? Because that's the biggest challenge, because what you get in a lot of GP surgeries is people who will say, you know, I've got an appointment for, I've got a prescription from gender GP, can you do shared care? And they'll say, no, well, what do you do then?

[00:06:40] And so people can often pass on resources and materials and, you know, documentation to be able to help you. So, so I'm a big fan of Facebook, but I don't know where you stand on that because I know you. No, I mean, and that's really interesting. I'm, I'm not on really on, I was on Facebook. I think we moved to face, I, I, I used to be a blog, there was a blog, there was a trans sort of blogging network, or we all had blogs, which I thought was really interesting. And then Facebook and Twitter came along and people drifted away from blogs.

[00:07:08] But I met some really good friends in the community through blogging, you know, telling their stories. But yeah, I went on to Facebook and I sort of drifted away from it for whatever reasons. But yeah, I think I understand it's good, it's strength is the groups have been able to have closed groups, the safe groups where you can, you know, you can talk information. I think that must be a real strength.

[00:07:30] I keep meaning to get back involved, but I find it a bit difficult to, but yeah, I think that's, that's something that wasn't, wasn't really, I don't know whether I didn't seek it out or whether I didn't need it at the time. I didn't sort of see that on Facebook, I just had, I wasn't involved in those. So it's good to hear that there's some positive stuff there.

[00:07:50] I mean, like, like everything on social media, there's a healthy dose of caution applied to any recommendation to any group, because you're, you're, you're usually talking on some of these trans groups to people who are genuine. You can see the pictures, you can see the profiles, you can look at their profiles, see that they've got lots of followers.

[00:08:14] They've been, you might have friends in common and you, and critically, you might discover, of course, that they've been, they've got a picture, but also that they've been on a member of the site for a number of years. And the key, you know, a lot of these bots have, you know, got very few members. They've got very few photographs. They've been created in the last two or three days. And, you know, they come out with the sort of weirdest statements. But so sometimes be careful that if you're on these groups that, you know, you're sort of generating, you're listening and generating, you're seeing heat being generated.

[00:08:44] Sometimes it doesn't always have to be a real person. So like everything online, you have to take a bit of due self-care and, you know, just sensible amounts of caution really, don't you? Because, you know, it's very possible if you're trans to get easily hurt without the complexity of someone who's out to hurt you. And there are some people in this world who are pretty horrible, like your trolls, who can wheedle their way into groups and can say unpleasant and unfortunate things.

[00:09:14] But I mean, they're quickly thrown out. That's the thing is about how I notice about well-run groups. And if it's not a well-run group, you'll know it because the moderators very rarely appear. So normally within a couple of days online, you will have seen the moderators coming in, saying stuff, making announcements. And if that's not the case, if it's not well-moderated, I wouldn't hang around it too much and certainly wouldn't contribute. So it's good sometimes if you join a group just to sort of lurk a little bit, just see what's going on.

[00:09:40] And you'll notice that the same people are in lots of different groups all making often a fuss about the same things or asking for help or looking for resources and going to different groups, just trying to garner different opinions and resources. And that's a great thing to do. You know, there is no right or wrong way. And if you have a challenge or a problem that you want to discuss, sometimes being in five or six different groups, putting the problem up there, you'll get many different answers. And then you can actually be actually more informed or have a better range of opinions from which to choose.

[00:10:09] No, I mean, you make a good point about the quality of moderators and, you know, community standards within a group. If they've got very clear community standards about language, you know, that's really important. So that can make you feel more safe. So it's worth just checking that out, I think, if you join it, I presume, if you join in a group. You know, so, yeah. I think what I've noticed is that Facebook Messenger, the actual app itself, is pretty good, pretty robust.

[00:10:37] It seems to be hard to break it, to knock the security out. So it's, I mean, I prefer WhatsApp, but, you know, actually, I do think it's a pretty good, a pretty good thing. And I use WhatsApp for other things, you know, if I haven't got to know someone and, you know, you can actually have conversations with them all the time then. But, you know, Facebook Messenger is all right. So it's something, I think, you know, healthy dose of self-care, healthy dose of cynicism around some of the people who are there to start off with.

[00:11:04] And then, like you said, I've got friends online who I've known for years. And we've shared jokes, tribulations, triumphs, successes, failures. And it often, of course, becomes a friendship based much more on the fact that it's not just about being trans. That's the thing that sort of starts us off to bind us. But actually, friendships come from lots of different things that we have in common. And I think that's the thing, isn't it?

[00:11:29] Where do you find those friends who you might have things in common with, but, you know, you've got no one in your local area. And then suddenly you find you've got 50 friends in America or India, wherever it might be. And that's the joy of it, isn't it? Just getting access to these communities. Oh, no, with all the pitfalls and all the problems and nobody's denying they're there, I still think it's a force of good. I think, you know, I wouldn't, without the internet, and okay, it wasn't Facebook at the start, but it's a similar.

[00:12:00] Without finding a community that way, I'd have never found a community. And you're right, there's many, many problems with it. But I still think overall, it's a force of good. But, yeah, you just have to be careful. I always say, though, the other thing I say, this is with my trade union hat on, and everybody thinks things on Facebook and things are private. Nothing is private on the internet. Because if somebody prints it off, it's when they screenshots it, it's not private.

[00:12:30] So, you know, back in the day, we used to, when it first started, we used to get loads of cases at work where people were getting in trouble by going home and just, you know, writing about work in a negative way because they were letting off steam, and then work would find out and be in trouble. And we don't get that so much now. I think people are a bit more savvy about these things. But, yes, no, I still think the pros outweigh the cons. Yeah. And I think... Despite me having had some terrible experiences on it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:00] And that's it. But in a funny sort of way, how can I put this? It's a good way to test yourself, isn't it? Sometimes being... Having someone who's been... Having had someone who's been nasty to you on Facebook, it's sort of good preparation to help you learn strategies to cope and deal with those things. So, when you're tackling the real world and someone says that to you out loud in the real world, you've built a defence mechanism up.

[00:13:27] I'm not saying it's right for someone to be horrible, but it is an interesting way to test yourself. And that's what I found useful to it. I tend not to throw myself into battles, and I've certainly given up on Twitter. But I think it's actually been quite useful to watch what you notice on conversations where they suddenly blow up. If you go back to the original statement, you discover the origin of where things blow up.

[00:13:55] And that's quite useful, because you can sort of be a bit more thoughtful about what you're saying in groups. Because it's nearly always a misunderstanding, or it's nearly always someone taking a position. And that's that thing about when you're writing things, they're slightly more inexact than when you're saying things, because you lose that tone of voice thing, don't you? Oh, no, I would always prefer to talk... I don't tend to get into debate. I mean, I don't do Facebook, I don't do Twitter, but I don't tend to get into debates or arguments.

[00:14:21] Even, you know, even when people are, you know, sometimes something will come up with my timeline, because I said something ages ago, and it's just got picked up by an anti-trans person. And I see one or two things. I don't generally engage, unless I can think of something funny to say back to them. I probably won't, because it's just not worth that. So on a one-to-one, it's never particularly bothered me if an individual has been mean to me on a one-to-one basis. That's just me.

[00:14:49] It's never... I mean, you can basically tell them where to go and block them, and that's a power that's really useful to be able to use. Yeah, I mean, I might block somebody, but I don't even tend to engage on that level. I mean, I don't know if I've talked about it before. Have I talked about my experience on here before with Twitter? No, it's a poisonous place, though, isn't it?

[00:15:14] No, but when I was mobbed on Twitter after being on the television. Go for it. Answer that. Well, that was... So this is why it's hard that we have a love-hate relationship. So I was in the audience at Question Time in Stoke-on-Trent because I like politics, and I was determined to ask a question because there was a UKIP candidate.

[00:15:40] They were looking to win the election, and I said something that I thought was quite clever. I got a load of applause, felt good about myself. You know, aren't you clever, Jen? I'm going to go at the UKIP. And I got loads of applause in the room and thought, great. I don't noticeably. It still rankles me today that David Dimbleby said the person in the purple didn't say the woman in the purple. It still rankles me. I don't think he means anything by it.

[00:16:06] Anyway, I went back into the car, looked on Twitter, and there was an absolute deluge of transphobia. But basically what it was was screenshots from the telly because they knew who it was. They knew the Twitter handle. Because I was looking to see what people said about it. I thought, it's politics. I bet some people will argue with what I said. So I went back on the hashtag, and it was, you know, a hundred of lots of screenshots saying around the terms of what the F is that. So dehumanizing language, what the F is that?

[00:16:35] I got compared to a fat purple Pokemon. I got compared to, I can't remember the football manager, big fan. It was really dehumanizing. And I found that hard because it was not just an individual. And it was almost like the world had spoken, you know, because everybody I knew would have, you know, lots of people I knew would be watching, would be monitoring it on Twitter.

[00:17:03] And I thought all people who were friends are going to see this because it just came up. Lots of, and you couldn't miss it. Screenshot, screenshot, what the, what the, and that. And I said, there's an article on Pink News about, about that, where they referenced it. And that very night, they picked up on it and referenced it about the abuse that a trans, they didn't know it was trans, but presumed it was trans. And they were right and had got.

[00:17:31] And so that was, and that nearly broke me because it was almost like, who do you think you're kidding, Jen? This world has really spoken because they didn't know who I was and they weren't trying to go with me. They just saw me and thought, and I mean, I got over it. But that was, that was the hardest and lowest point I think I've ever had, really. Because it just, and it took all my confidence away. Because here I am, I'm doing everything. I'm not scared of anything.

[00:18:00] I'll go on the telly. I'm a trans woman. I'm a big trans woman. I don't care. I'll do it because I'm happy. I'm content. And then it was like, who do you think you're kidding? So that, that, I remember it one o'clock in the morning in the rain and then in my car, because it was straight after recording, scrolling through, could never felt more alone in my life, you know, over the community. So that is terrible. And you see that, if you've ever, you see that with the public shaming of people.

[00:18:26] And there's a really good book by John Ronson about publicly shamed people who've made mistakes and then suddenly had a pile on. I can sort of relate to that. That's what wasn't what it was. Just, it was just misogyny and transphobia and just, you know. Interesting though, I reckon, 80, 90% of those people who posted those comments, if I met them in their day-to-day life, they'd be perfectly pleasant. They're probably just doing it because it's like, I made it akin to when you sometimes have a group of,

[00:18:55] I used to go into a group of lads in the corner who would be laughing at the woman, you know, fat woman that walked in. You know, it was that group mentality. Oh, look at us, you know. And whether those people really care, you know, felt that, I don't know. But yeah, yeah. So even with that horrible situation. Pardon? Yeah. It does die down faster. That's one of the good things about it. Well, it died down there, but didn't die down for me. No, but the actual, the actual. I've got all the screenshots on my phone now.

[00:19:23] I still like as a way of reminding myself not to get too complacent, which is not healthy. I understand that. And the therapist, you say, I've got to let that go now. I make no comment. I know. But even with all that, and I still think there's a positive because there's a community. I also got people supporting me. And when I've spoken out, when I've been struggling, I've had people respond in a positive way. I've got friends. And the trans community on Twitter, trans Twitter is great.

[00:19:52] The people who are trans will see what you say. So even with the bad, the good still outweighs it. Yeah. And I think I told you my story about the kiddie fiddler episode. Did you get that? Remember that one? Go on. I made a comment on Twitter about something quite innocuous. And basically, it was about something around most of the child abuse

[00:20:21] is not from trans people wearing skirts. And it was talking about a different organisation where men wear skirts. Not skirts, but uniforms that are long. And I put GIF up, Jeff up, whatever it's called. And of course, then I got a storm of abuse from that. Oh, you're talking about religious. Sorry. My brain was slow then, Jeff. Yeah. So then I got this thing done where someone had screenshotted my face and my name

[00:20:49] and had actually put it on a T-shirt that said, my name is a kiddie fiddler. So I clicked on the link and I clicked on that person and I found that person's name. And I found that person on LinkedIn and I found where they worked. Wow. Good for you. And I thought to myself, should I? Should I contact that firm and say, are you aware this is what your employees are saying?

[00:21:17] And then I looked at it, saw the job they were doing. So it was a small family firm. Saw where it was and thought, do you know what? No. Because actually, this could escalate from being a skirmish into a battle. And there would be only one loser and that would be me. So do you know what? I haven't got time. And so I pushed it away. But it was interesting that, you know, even the vile people that make terrible comments are easy to track down because they're not stupid enough to do it hidden away.

[00:21:46] At least the bots, you can't find them because their bots are not real. So there's always power. You can usually track people down in the same way that anyone can track us down. So you just have to be careful. No, you're our very own Wackatha Christie is that case, aren't you? Tracking them down like that. And it's, you know, there comes a point where is it worth, is it worth? Exactly. I mean, we had that with, I mean, our good friend, our good friend, Paul, who I worked with,

[00:22:15] we noticed that one of the people abused me. It was in an NHS uniform and we next to an ambulance and tried to, we were going to, he was going to try and find out who it was just to advise them that this person, not, not to call them, you know, just advise them. The person was being a bit mean or a bit improbable. In the end, I don't think, I think they probably didn't work for the NHS any longer. But people weren't trying to be anonymous. They were just quite blatantly because they didn't know they'd be seen, I think.

[00:22:42] And this is an interesting development on social media because actually I have done some work with a football club and they say they have trans rights as well as LGBT rights right across the board. And they have a unit to it and they talk about trans, any form of, you know, diversity, hatred. And what they say is what's most effective to some of these people is actually they monitor social media

[00:23:11] and that they see people, their fans actually making these sorts of transphobic comments. They ban them from going to the football club and they say actually it's one of the most effective forms of punishment and deterrent for people. So if you're, if you get a load of abuse from someone who is and ends up being a supporter of a football club, you'd report them to them. Don't, you mean, we should report them to the police, but we know what happens. But actually, I thought that was really quite fascinating. Sending a note to the LGBT foundations at the football club, especially in the Premier League,

[00:23:39] because they all have LGBT groups and representatives and very strong advocacy groups. And I thought that was quite an interesting thing. Yeah. Do you? No, I mean, yeah, it is. I mean, like anything else. I think Premier League clubs like businesses, this is all that whole debate, realise that it's, it's probably down because they care about the profits, to be truthful.

[00:24:06] But they realise it's not good for them to be on the wrong side of history on this. They understand that, despite everything else. But there's legislation, but there's actually specific guidance now from the FA. And I don't know much about other sports, so forgive me for that, because I'm not a big sporty person. But I thought it was fascinating that the FA have actually legislated in terms of their clubs, that this has to happen. And this is how, I think it's called Purple Rainbow Laces or something.

[00:24:34] Yeah, the Rainbow Laces, which is partly still the Rainbow Laces campaign. But there's a Kick It Out, which I think has gone on from kicking out racism out of football, has gone on to, because they realise there's a problem, because, and players, you know, we've still got no premiership players come out as gay, even though there absolutely must be. So there is that, and they have been trying to tackle homophobic chanting in crowds. So, you know, that is really positive. I mean, you know, yeah, it's not there yet.

[00:25:03] I mean, it's still not there yet, but yeah, that's interesting. So Instagram is quite an interesting place. It's not a place I use or I'm very interested in. And I have to say that most of my younger colleagues seem to be on the ground or whatever they call it. And I look at it and I can't understand it, but I tell you what I do like, and that's TikTok. And there's some fantastic trans resources on TikTok.

[00:25:29] Now, what's really interesting about TikTok is that because of the way the algorithm works, it's very, very binary in terms of whatever you click on and follow, you get just more and more and more than that over a short period of time. So I clicked on a Kathleen Stock debate at the Oxford Union. That's okay. And then I followed, followed because I listened to a few of the things. And then, of course, my inbox was full of turf literature and turf.

[00:25:59] And it was absolutely fascinating to hear the arguments and to listen to what was going on and to hear what they say and to understand the perspectives and tons of germane career and all that sort of stuff. And then, of course, it's not long before what happens. Of course, you get served something which is the opposite on TikTok. And so you get something that's very trans friendly and there's trans people and they talk about the arguments and you listen to all the stories and you take on those and listen to those. And then suddenly, of course, you're back with your club, your tribe, aren't you? Because you're back in where you belong and such like.

[00:26:28] But I found it really quite fascinating not just sitting with our community and listening to what we have to say, because I sort of know that really what we have to say. It's quite fascinating listening to what the other side of the argument is and seeing what it's based on and what it's based in and such like.

[00:26:46] And listening to TikTok, it means actually you hear long form explanations and, you know, you get up to 10 minutes of a speech or whatever it might be and you might get a debate. And the same on our side as well. There are some really thoughtful conversations between trans and non-trans people, TERFs and trans people, you know, just talking through the whole issues, answering people's questions, talking about stuff that goes on.

[00:27:13] And there's a lot of good trans activists out there who are responding to the day and giving statistics and such like this. Aaron in the morning, who's famous on LinkedIn, got a great TikTok channel, tons of really interesting influencers. And I think if you want to be more informed these days, I think TikTok is a place. Obviously, it's about making money. You know, obviously, that's the whole purpose of it. But I find I don't see many dancers these days, but I see a hell of a lot of... Yeah, I think you're right about the algorithm.

[00:27:39] I will watch the TikTok video if something comes up, usually through... I've seen it through somewhere else. So I don't tend to... I don't post on TikTok. But again, you know, Instagram and TikTok are much more used now than Twitter. Instagram, I think, is the most used social media. And certainly younger people are used in TikTok. Twitter is relatively small by comparison, but more influential because more newsmakers and power may use it. Until recently.

[00:28:08] I think it's really changed. Oh, it's gone completely... I'm still on it, but it's just gone a bit rubbish. The dogs. Well, since... Since we're ironically taken over by a transphobe. So there you are. It shows what happens when a transphobe is one thing. Who talks about free speech all the time. Yeah. Absolute man-child. But yeah, I think that's really interesting. TikTok, I mean, you know, I have seen a couple of good resources. I think a follower, a TikToker called...

[00:28:37] I think by the name of Bic Eki, who's a young trans woman who posts fashion advice. I think that's really good if you were transitioning, posting fashion advice and just tips about transitioning. And I think that'd be great. I'd love to have had that when I was transitioning. So some great resources on there. But yeah, yeah. So I think... I mean, it's a broad umbrella what we mean by social media, don't we?

[00:29:00] I mean, it is in some respects a slightly confusing term because it's where you find content, isn't it, really? Yeah. Yeah. And it's fascinating, though, because what I find beautiful about it is... It's that thing about being able to find something and then share it.

[00:29:23] Because I think if you're in a group where you can debate these things and talk about it, what you're doing is you're learning the arguments in a safe environment. And we've talked before about, you know, we hear a lot of abuse and people saying this, this and this about our community. And it's actually sometimes quite hard to know what to say back. So you either say nothing and kick yourself or you actually say something and get it wrong. And I think what TikTok and Instagram do is they give you...

[00:29:50] It's like a form of training to know how to understand the other side of the debate. Maybe. I mean, I don't... They're saying maybe. I don't know if TikTok is more, with its algorithms, more akin to YouTube. And if you're not informed in the first place, it might... The algorithm will send you down a rabbit hole where you'll get more and more of the very similar points of view. And that can radicalise people. I am absolutely convinced of that. Oh, yeah, of course it can. And I don't know if TikTok's the same.

[00:30:19] YouTube is definitely like that. So the algorithm, you know, sort of supports sort of, you know, in a sense, it's very polarising, right? And it supports that because that gets the interactions, you know? So, you know, if you go on... If you see an anti-trans YouTube video, and there's plenty of them there, and you comment on it and saying this is rubbish, you're helping that get seen by more people because they were interacting with it. So I always urge people not to interact, even though you might want to argue the point about what they're saying.

[00:30:49] And I've seen this... I worry about this, particularly YouTube, that people can access such a toxic message that you couldn't really access very easily sort of seven or eight years ago. I worry about this in the workplace I work in, that people can access. You know, the transphobia is a really interesting one. You start to look at transphobia, you might end up on a YouTuber like Matt Walsh,

[00:31:16] who's a huge American YouTuber, who's also, you know, a borderline white supremacist, racist, a lot. But, you know, it sends those people... It's so interesting how those people can also be. And if you're not careful, it becomes... And I get you, and I get where you're going there, but I don't think the strategy which builds robustness, capacity and resilience is to hide away and not interact. No, let me rephrase that.

[00:31:45] Not interact. I mean, it's possible to watch and listen and consume the data and understand it without interacting and therefore pushing it forward. But I think it's important to hear the other side of the story and then hear how people in our community react to that, because I think that helps us. It helps... I think there's a real worry that people in our world don't listen to the other side of the story because we're terrified of it. But we have to have a duty of self-care when we do it.

[00:32:14] We have to know when we do it, and we're doing it on purpose, as it were. I would say there's two separate things. If you're talking about listening to some sober, proper debate on an issue, I could go along with you on that. If you're talking about listening to, you know, Matt Walz, Ben Shapiro, some of these... I don't think anybody should listen to any of that. I'd have it kicked off. Or Alex Jones, you know. These people should not be given platforms to public speak. They should go off in their own corner of the world

[00:32:43] because they're not coming up with a... They are saying trans people should be eradicated. Nobody needs to listen to that and think, oh, that's something I need to understand, because that is too far there. If somebody wants to listen to it, try and understand why people think trans people shouldn't be in sport or any of those arguments that you might argue may be more nuanced, I don't disagree with you. But what worries me is the amount of... I mean, there's loads of good stuff on YouTube. I love YouTube.

[00:33:12] There's loads of positive YouTubers. Philosophy Tube, Trans Woman does brilliant stuff, really thoughtful items on philosophy. ContraPoints is very interesting. Lindsay Ellis, really long-form YouTubers, bloggers, engaging in the trans debate, you know, actually informing, countering some of those arguments. And I'm sure there are some of those on the opposite side, I guess. I'm not going to seek them out. But there are some really whose views are just so beyond the pale.

[00:33:41] This is where, Jill, I don't think we should give them any ear space. They can rearticlise people to an extreme, is my thought. Yeah. And I think it depends where you are on your journey and what you're interested in. And I listen to those people. I think I understand what they're saying, where they're coming from. I don't agree with them. But there you go. And the thing is, what you've got to be careful about is saying that people should be banned and put them into their own corner

[00:34:10] because actually that's what they're trying to do with us. And I think that's part of the challenge here. No, but, well, I don't mean ban from, they were allowed to speak, but you don't have a right to be published and you don't have the right to spread hate. And people, you know, there's a problem with Twitter. People were removed from Twitter, you know, because what they were doing was harmful. So Twitter is a private company said, we don't want those on. And now we've got a Twitter that says, oh, we're quite happy to have harmful material on here. And it's the same for YouTube.

[00:34:39] I'm never, I'm not talking about censorism. It's that debate. But I don't think you have a right to, Alex Jones has been kicked off. And rightly so. He was, and he ended up owing a billion pounds, hasn't he, or something. You know, I don't think anybody arguing that he should be giving the platform back on YouTube, for instance. Depends who gets his billion pounds. Well, I mean, it's Glenn Banco. But I mean, the point is the people who he defamed in Sandy Hook. But all I'm saying is, I agree with you.

[00:35:09] I think I agree with you to the extent that it's probably better if we don't stay in our own bubbles. There's something to be said for that. I think that's the broad point I'm making. Yeah. And then being careful. Because actually, as you were saying, there's a lot of difficult people out there. I can't think of a better word that's not a swear word. So given we don't want to swear in this episode, because we're trying not to be explicit this week. So I got into trouble for swearing recently on the podcast.

[00:35:38] So I'm not doing it this week. Anyway, so I think we should start with our bubble because we need to understand. But just, you know, user beware because like everyone, like bots, there are some people out there who are violent. And listening to too much or too regularly or getting too upset or getting too worried that there are too many people out there is the key. For me, it's about how we balance and understand that there are horrible people in the world and there's some really lovely people in the world as well. And it's not worrying too much about one side because, you know,

[00:36:08] there's always someone on the other side. And that's the point. I absolutely agree with that point. And there's a complete dissonance in my life where, and I do get upset by what's happening in the media and online. It gets me down. Yet in real life, everybody I meet is lovely. I've never had any, I can't think of any negative contact I've had within, you know, out in the world. So then that dissonance between, and I'm not saying that doesn't happen. I've heard, I was due to training and I was speaking to somebody who's got a young trans daughter that was, you know,

[00:36:38] was abused for being trans in the street, right? So maybe I'm privileged and lucky that I haven't faced that. But I do think the real world is, it's too condensed social media. So, and the way the algorithms work and the way your bubble works is you can get a distorted view of the whole world. Yeah. You know, and I think that is definitely true, but I don't listen to my own advice. So perhaps you should, other people should maybe, but I don't. Yeah.

[00:37:05] Well, I mean, but you still haven't mentioned Twitch. Is it Twitch? Oh, well, the other one, yeah. The other one I do enjoy, and that's because I haven't grown up yet, is Twitch, which was, you know, it's online, it's online streaming. You're watching video, you know, you're watching online as it happens and was made for video games. But I have found a couple of communities there of trans or gender non-conforming people that I think that I've found a really positive young community, you know, generally younger.

[00:37:35] I'm not the only person in my 50s, but there's lots of people that are sort of in their 20s really positive about all things regarding gender and sexuality and are much freer in how they see it. They don't see the binary. They don't see the distinction. They, you know, any negative is called out, you know, and they're moderated. So I do say, and that lifts my heart. You know, there's people I see on there that's good to see,

[00:38:02] a community where it's an airingly positive. You know, I'm not saying every Twitch channel is that or whatever, but if you find a community, because they become communities on the channel that's well moderated and with people with the right views, not enough trans people on there, but I have found one or two. So that's something I like to involve myself in, to try and make out I'm still gender. I'm not, I'm still young. I'm still young. What a Minecraft stream is or something. And hopefully, you know,

[00:38:32] what we're only trying, I mean, there's tons of people out there that probably know a stack more about social media than I do. And, you know, they've got other channels. So if you've got channels that you think people should know about or groups that you think people should reach out to, you know, we're very happy to check those out and to pass them on. That's absolutely fine. We don't obviously particularly advocate or support any groups in particular, but, you know, if you're doing a trans event, you want us to publicise it or talk about it? Or if you've got some social media tips or tricks, we'd love to hear.

[00:39:02] Isn't that right, Jim? Because we're not the experts. We would. We would. We're not. God, far from it. Far from it. But it doesn't stop us talking about it. Never has. Evidence every other podcast. But yeah, don't be scared of it, is what I'd say, you know, because I think there's a lot of, don't be scared of it. And, you know, tackle it in the white way and it can be a way of finding community. It can be a way of feeling that you belong. And conversely, don't be too driven by it either. So it's not about being scared.

[00:39:31] Sometimes it's not about being completely addicted to it as well. Remember that, your point about the real world. And you see, you know, a certain age group who they almost live their entire lives in the virtual world. Sorry, that was me dropping something on the floor. And I just think we have to watch that as well. It's that balance, isn't it? Don't spend all your life on TikTok and all those different things because... You don't judge yourself by the number of likes. No. I mean, you know, we know we get a sort of dopamine hit when we get a like.

[00:40:00] I still do that. I still do a tweet. And then if nobody's engaged with it, I might delete it. That's pathetic of me. Even though I don't disagree with what I've said, I might have gone, oh, nobody's really cared. Take care about that one. I'll take it down. That's pathetic. But I do do that. So we've got lots to talk about in your therapy session following this session. We have. Listen, every conversation is a therapy session for me, Jill. And me. Well, until next week, when we're going to talk about all sorts of other things,

[00:40:29] we have to do that Star Trek episode. We've got to. We've been threatening it. Because there's a person who's clamouring to hear that episode. And it seems rude of us to turn our listener down. Oh, indeed. Indeed. You know, it has to happen. And I think that episode, what we'll do is we'll come in Star Trek regalia. Which colour shirt do you tend to go with? I'm Klingon all the way, babe. Klingon? Really? Oh, Kaplan.

[00:40:59] I'll bring me back. Is that how you pronounce it? As someone said to me recently, talking Klingon, they said Kaplan. I thought it was a brilliant reference to nothing to do with Klingon. So, female Klingons are quite powerful, I reckon. Yeah. And of course, I love the Klingon opera. Way. That's fantastic stuff. But there you go. Well, I'll represent Starfleet. And I'll be in my various shirts. And I'll see you in a week. Oh, God. How long have we been jibbering on for? If there's anybody there, let's take a down. Far too long.

[00:41:29] See you next week. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian.transvox.co.uk. And if you'd like to support the work we do, please go to Patreon and go to page Transvox. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.

[00:41:58] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people, and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say,

[00:42:27] if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to gillian. It's fransvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.