Transvox - Sarah McBride and potential Implications for the UK

[00:00:06] Hi, welcome back to Transvox. How are you, Jen?

[00:00:09] I'm very well, Gill. All the better for seeing you.

[00:00:12] Good. Well, look, we had a lovely, lovely, relaxing week last week. We talked sparkles, we talked high heels, we talked frocks, we talked beautiful dances, we talked Strictly Come Dancing or Dancing with the Stars. And it was a lovely break from reality. But I think it's back to reality today, if that's all right with you.

[00:00:30] Oh dear, if we have to, if we must.

[00:00:33] We must. And I think it's time that we talked about what's going on in the States with Sarah McBride and such like, without getting too dug down into the bowels of us, but also thinking about what that means for us over here, what we can learn from that, and what we might want to start thinking about. So how does that sound as a sort of a topic for today?

[00:00:54] It does. I think it's a very interesting situation. So, in light, one of the great things about the...

[00:01:02] election in the US, amongst all the rest of it, which was terrible, was the election of the first congressperson who was trans, Sarah McBride, as he said. What state is it? I can't remember. Is it Delaware?

[00:01:17] She's from Delaware.

[00:01:18] She's from Delaware, you're right. So she's been elected, which is a brilliant situation. We have yet to have anybody elected who's a trans person in the UK.

[00:01:27] So they're ahead of us at that. So that's real, you know, that's a come of real success.

[00:01:35] But what seems to have happened this last week is just pretty awful, really, because they've, on the back of that, the Republicans started to try and pass rules that would ban her from using women's facilities and women's bathrooms, as they say, in America, in Congress,

[00:01:54] which is such a petty, mean, unnecessary thing to have done, and particularly focusing on the only trans person that they've had elected.

[00:02:07] I just think it's...

[00:02:08] It's unborrified in its transphobia, but it's also so mean and cruel to be doing that to the one person. Don't you think, Jim?

[00:02:15] Well, I think it's interesting because it's not just in Congress. It's actually any federal property.

[00:02:23] Is that right?

[00:02:23] Which means it extends to places like national parks, airports and museums.

[00:02:29] Is that right?

[00:02:30] That is right.

[00:02:31] I hadn't really quite understood that.

[00:02:32] Yeah. And that's why it's a challenge, because transgender people are having their rights eroded anywhere.

[00:02:38] I mean, that's a lot of America, if you start thinking about it. So you're thinking about flying in from the UK, if you're trans, going into a toilet.

[00:02:47] You can get yourself into terrible trouble if you're not careful.

[00:02:51] And I think one of the challenges for Sarah McBride is how on earth do you respond to this?

[00:02:56] Do you try and fight back?

[00:02:59] Or do you do what she's sort of done, which is to say, is to sort of try and sidestep it and talk about the real issues about bringing down costs for Delawarean families.

[00:03:10] But that's not stopped the hate. In fact, some of the more extreme Republican cis women have been jumping on the bandwagon and basically calling her a man in a dress and all the normal sort of dog whistle stuff that we get.

[00:03:23] And it doesn't sound like it's going to stop. And I think it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.

[00:03:32] And I think the fact that Sarah McBride is in Congress has become a focal point for the hate.

[00:03:38] And I think that's one of the challenges here. I mean, it's horrible. It's loathsome. It's cruel.

[00:03:43] And I actually think completely misguided. And I think we'll come back to haunt some of these Republican women who are pushing this agenda because it's almost always women against trans women.

[00:03:56] And yes, I mean, there's plenty of men in the Republican Party hate trans people and there's plenty of men on YouTube that seem to as well.

[00:04:05] So what you're right, it's I think Nancy Mace is the Republican that's trying to I think he said they introduced it as a bill.

[00:04:12] So it hasn't been passed yet, I guess.

[00:04:16] But yeah, I think it is. It's not surprising in a way.

[00:04:22] It really isn't, I guess, in light of.

[00:04:26] In light of the election result.

[00:04:29] But there's a number of of states trying to pass laws restricting trans people from using bathrooms.

[00:04:37] And the vast majority of them were struck down, you know, that the people wouldn't vote for it.

[00:04:42] And they were struck down by governors and other ones.

[00:04:45] And they failed because there was a time, I think it was a few years ago.

[00:04:48] I remember that was all over the news about each state, these states were going to do that.

[00:04:52] And of course, it's completely unworkable.

[00:04:54] I mean, it's completely unworkable because, you know, you're going to end up with trans men going in women's bathrooms.

[00:05:01] That would absolutely not be right.

[00:05:03] And then how do you know if somebody's trans in the bathroom anyway?

[00:05:07] Are you going to go, you know, spying on people?

[00:05:10] It is unworkable because it's never been an issue.

[00:05:14] So it is completely unworkable.

[00:05:16] But, yeah, this sort of doesn't surprise me.

[00:05:20] And with Congress and the Senate being like it is, it's probably, I guess, likely to be passed.

[00:05:27] I don't know.

[00:05:28] The Democrats would need some form of support from the Republicans, I suppose.

[00:05:36] Yes.

[00:05:37] And it is quite interesting.

[00:05:39] It's interesting.

[00:05:40] There's a site called translegislation.com, which is quite interesting.

[00:05:43] They talk about there being 669 bills, 274 live bills at the moment.

[00:05:51] 48 have been passed.

[00:05:52] Quite a lot are inactive and a few have failed.

[00:05:55] But there's no doubt that the amount of anti-trans legislation is heating up in the states.

[00:06:00] And I think it's just interesting because AOC was online and basically saying something which I totally agree with, which is, I think, this ban, if it's actually enacted, will massively harm the rights and safety of cis women and girls.

[00:06:46] Of course it will.

[00:06:47] That's the risk here.

[00:06:48] I think this is a wedge issue.

[00:06:50] It's been used against trans people to legitimise the ability to take this legislation against women further on down the line.

[00:06:56] It's all written down.

[00:06:57] It's all in Project 2025.

[00:07:00] We should not be surprised this is happening.

[00:07:03] And it's really not an issue about trans people.

[00:07:05] It's actually an issue against women and girls, I think.

[00:07:08] And the way to get to women and girls is through trans people because that's easy.

[00:07:12] I think it might be.

[00:07:13] But I'm not sure I'm convinced of that.

[00:07:15] I'm not sure it's not just downright transphobia about hating on trans people and hating on LGBTQ people.

[00:07:22] But I respect your thoughts on that.

[00:07:25] I'm just not convinced of that.

[00:07:27] Because if you look about the anti-trans stuff in this country, a lot of it has been driven from parts of the feminist movement who are not trying to...

[00:07:34] I think the outcome is absolutely right.

[00:07:35] And in this country, I've spoken to people who've been challenged using facilities because there may be male, you know, more masculine presenting lesbians, for instance, within our community.

[00:07:46] Or people who are more androgynous.

[00:07:47] That has definitely happened in this country.

[00:07:49] I don't think...

[00:07:49] Because the similar things have happened in this country.

[00:07:51] And that's not being driven...

[00:07:53] I think the outcome of it could be misogynistic and dangerous to all women.

[00:07:58] But I don't think it's been driven with that in mind.

[00:08:01] Whether that's different in America...

[00:08:03] I think it is.

[00:08:04] I think it is.

[00:08:05] I do think there's a big chunk of this is just anti-trans.

[00:08:08] Because it goes on the back of the face.

[00:08:10] I do think it's different to America than us.

[00:08:12] Because I think you've got the Christian nationalists who are avowedly looking at revoking women's rights as part of changes to the US legislation and such like.

[00:08:25] But I do think there's the hand of Christian nationalism behind what's going on in the UK as well.

[00:08:30] And let's just be honest that whatever happens in the US tends to come across the channel.

[00:08:34] What I was surprised about...

[00:08:36] That's why I just don't think this is...

[00:08:39] There may be for some people about controlling women.

[00:08:42] And definitely there are people who want to control women, how they look, how they appear.

[00:08:45] And there is that sort of movement in the US that you don't get in this country.

[00:08:50] I just think it would be wrong to say this is just about that.

[00:08:54] I think there is a genuine, in some parts, hatred for LGBTQ and hatred for trans people.

[00:09:00] They tried to do these bills some time ago with them to attack people in sport.

[00:09:04] It's in every aspect they want to attack.

[00:09:07] The Republican Party particularly have seen this as a vote winner.

[00:09:10] So I'm not dismissing what you're saying in any terms.

[00:09:13] I just don't know that it is also, and I don't think we should ever forget, it is also anti-trans stuff.

[00:09:18] Yes, I agree.

[00:09:20] Purely because...

[00:09:21] And the same in, you know, certainly in this country, the same in the dismissiveness of non-binary people.

[00:09:28] And they're almost ignoring the fact that trans men exist in the same numbers as trans women exist.

[00:09:33] Do you know?

[00:09:34] So either way, it is absolutely hateful and worrying.

[00:09:41] And yeah, I mean, I don't know if I'm right on this because I'm not as good.

[00:09:46] I think it's right.

[00:09:47] It has to get through the Senate as well, this sort of bill.

[00:09:49] And there is a filibuster in the Senate that means they can...

[00:09:53] The Democratic Party could sort of block it, I think.

[00:09:56] Ah.

[00:09:57] Am I right on that?

[00:09:58] The filibuster, I think they have to get two-thirds majority or something.

[00:10:02] They could invoke the filibuster.

[00:10:04] Which party has been rowing backwards faster on trans rights quicker than the Oxford but rowing team?

[00:10:10] It's the Democrats.

[00:10:11] I mean, partly because the Democrats are completely disorganised and reading from their defeat.

[00:10:16] But also because the Democrats are actively rolling back from visible support for trans communities.

[00:10:23] I mean, even AOC, who's a staunch supporter, has dropped the pronouns from her profiles and such like.

[00:10:30] And I think...

[00:10:31] Just on that, because I'm aware of that, but apparently that happened some years, a couple of years ago.

[00:10:35] So it's not related to the recent stuff.

[00:10:37] And no disaster why.

[00:10:39] So I think it's been seized upon in the press to say she's just done that in response to what's happened.

[00:10:43] And I don't...

[00:10:44] My understanding isn't on the case.

[00:10:46] She just changed the bio on Twitter.

[00:10:48] Because I know she's spoken out in support of Sarah McBride just recently.

[00:10:53] So I read that as well.

[00:10:55] When I looked into it, I think she did just take the pronouns off some time back.

[00:11:02] I think...

[00:11:03] It was November 2024.

[00:11:07] Well, that's what's reported.

[00:11:08] But I certainly was listening to...

[00:11:09] Maybe I'm wrong.

[00:11:10] I was listening to somebody who knows AOC and said that actually it's reported in 2024, but actually it happened some time ago.

[00:11:18] I don't know.

[00:11:19] I can't see when she did that.

[00:11:21] I would be surprised that she would, in light of the election, just do it at that point.

[00:11:26] Because that would be out of character, in all honesty, because she's spoken up on behalf of Sarah.

[00:11:32] So I'm just not 100% sure it hasn't happened previously and just people have seized upon it in November, which I think is more likely to be the case.

[00:11:40] But if you look...

[00:11:41] She actually went online on the famous long Donkey Kong stream, if you know about this, that H-Bomber guy, the YouTuber did.

[00:11:51] She famously joined that and she's been a complete trans ally.

[00:11:54] So I would be surprised.

[00:11:56] I'd be surprised if she's done that in reaction to...

[00:11:58] But I think the worry about how the Democratic Party respond, I think you put that really well, Jill, because I think there's a worry that they will see election results and think that's what they need to do.

[00:12:10] She's so missing the point.

[00:12:13] They didn't lose the election in any way because of their views on trans people.

[00:12:17] In fact, they were very quiet about trans people during the campaign.

[00:12:21] You know?

[00:12:22] Yes.

[00:12:22] I mean, I think there are...

[00:12:23] They lost it for other reasons.

[00:12:24] There's a whole load of reasons why the Democrats...

[00:12:27] I mean, the Democrats lost their attraction to their own base, which...

[00:12:31] And the problem with economies is that and the other.

[00:12:33] There's no doubt about that.

[00:12:34] But, you know, I was listening to ASA talking the other night about this ban with trans people.

[00:12:39] And she's the person who's saying this is going to be bad for women and girls.

[00:12:42] And I think this is the...

[00:12:43] Yeah, I know.

[00:12:44] This is my worry.

[00:12:45] And I think this is what...

[00:12:47] I genuinely...

[00:12:47] I mean, you know, having read that Project 2025 report, they said they would do this.

[00:12:52] And they're doing it.

[00:12:53] Yes, they don't like trans people.

[00:12:54] But they also see that by attacking marginalised communities where either people are ambivalent,

[00:13:00] don't care, or against them, that allows you to change the law which affects other people.

[00:13:04] It's exactly the same as right-wing lawmakers have done.

[00:13:08] And that is what the Tories were doing over here, wasn't it?

[00:13:11] It's, you know, the laws against immigrants, the laws against trans people were changing.

[00:13:14] And you could see that it was possible to see a law changing for minorities being abused later on for the majority.

[00:13:23] And I think that's what we have to be very careful about.

[00:13:26] I think you're right.

[00:13:28] I mean, there are...

[00:13:29] I mean, I know my understanding that the plan to attack trans people from the heart of the fundamental Christian nationalist right

[00:13:37] was talked about many years ago as a way of breaking up the whole LGBTQ community.

[00:13:44] So take the trans out of it, then you can start to attack.

[00:13:47] And that's why we've seen homophobia come in.

[00:13:48] I absolutely get that because the truth of the matter is it's 1% of the population are trans.

[00:13:52] It really doesn't make, you know, any difference anywhere because we're such a small population.

[00:13:58] But if they want to attack women or want to attack LGBTQ, this is a way into that.

[00:14:03] I think things are different in here.

[00:14:05] I just think it's a different mechanism because what's happened with the Tory party and their move

[00:14:11] virulently to anti-trans, you know, when they were trying to do improved things

[00:14:18] was because of the organised, that were funded, I think, for America,

[00:14:21] but the organised parts of, as we use the term, TERF,

[00:14:24] but the trans-exclusionary part of feminism in this country, J.K. Rowling, Zetal.

[00:14:32] I think that's what changed attitudes in this country rather than, you know,

[00:14:38] because let's face it, we don't really have much of a debate on abortion in this country.

[00:14:41] There is no real movement to damage women's rights on abortion, for instance, in this country.

[00:14:47] But America, it's always been the main thing they wanted to talk about often, isn't it?

[00:14:53] Interesting, the two different aspects, because you're right, we do mirror each other sometimes

[00:14:58] in our politics, those two countries.

[00:15:01] Well, I think you're right to be certain, Jill.

[00:15:03] I think one of the things I've found interesting, and I didn't know this,

[00:15:08] but a couple of different things.

[00:15:12] The first thing is that I wasn't aware that there had been another trans person in Parliament,

[00:15:17] but in Italy, way back when, I think is the place.

[00:15:20] Vladimir Luxuria, which is a great name, back in 2006.

[00:15:25] Apparently there might have been someone in Poland as well, who was Polish.

[00:15:28] They all had the same issue.

[00:15:31] And Luxuria was actually saying something about the fact that,

[00:15:36] what was it she's saying, she thinks that Mace's attack on Mad Bride was part of a bigger plan

[00:15:42] to divide Democrats, to force them to defend an issue that still makes many Americans uncomfortable.

[00:15:49] So, you know, what Luxuria is saying is that they're using this purpose,

[00:15:53] you know, they're using this programme here to generate hate.

[00:15:56] But also, I suspect, and we all know about the dead cat strategy,

[00:16:01] I suspect that what we're saying is corruption breaking out in the transition team,

[00:16:06] and people are looking at the trans issue,

[00:16:09] and they're not looking at the corruption, or the alleged corruption,

[00:16:13] which is starting to become rife around the Trump interim arrangements.

[00:16:18] And, you know, I think, I forget who coined the term dead cat,

[00:16:22] but Boris Johnson used it to great effect.

[00:16:24] And I always think that whenever there's a big sort of fuss about a trans issue somewhere,

[00:16:28] there's something else going on that's drawing attention away from it.

[00:16:31] Yes, it definitely is used in that way.

[00:16:34] I really don't think some of the politicians that have been the worst on this really care that much.

[00:16:38] I don't think Richard Kaye should not care that much,

[00:16:41] but once he realised he could get some applause around it,

[00:16:44] or distract from other things, that's what they'll talk about.

[00:16:47] I mean, it is absolutely ridiculous, you know,

[00:16:49] the Republican Party spent, you know, quarter of a million pounds on tacking trans people.

[00:16:57] It's nuts, because that doesn't win them the election.

[00:17:02] But I suppose it's, as you said, a wedge issue.

[00:17:05] It's interesting, I was just looking up how many people have been elected who are trans.

[00:17:09] I mean, there's a good long list on Wikipedia,

[00:17:12] but most of it is in a local authority, sort of, the second level of politics,

[00:17:17] I think, it seems to me.

[00:17:19] Yeah, you're right about Poland, somebody in Belgium and Senate,

[00:17:23] but the UK, wasn't there an MP that came out as trans,

[00:17:29] a conservative MP that came out as trans,

[00:17:32] but hasn't transitioned, hadn't transitioned?

[00:17:34] And I think they've probably lost their seat now.

[00:17:36] I do remember that.

[00:17:37] I can't remember the name, but they were an MP,

[00:17:41] and we had somebody in the European Parliament.

[00:17:46] I remember, Nicky something.

[00:17:48] Jamie Wallace.

[00:17:49] Jamie Wallace was the Tory MP, I think, who came,

[00:17:53] had some problems, I think, had some problems in their personal life,

[00:17:56] and came out as trans, but I don't think they transitioned, if I'm right.

[00:18:00] Is that right?

[00:18:01] Yes.

[00:18:02] Well, Nicky Sinclair, in the European Parliament for the West Midlands,

[00:18:07] was elected.

[00:18:08] I mean, that's on a PR basis, so you've got a better chance of being elected.

[00:18:12] But we've never elected a Parliament.

[00:18:14] I mean, Susie Eddie Izzard stood twice for the Labour Party,

[00:18:21] but didn't get selected, went to second place on that.

[00:18:24] So that would have been interesting.

[00:18:26] But yeah, look what happens when you get somebody elected.

[00:18:28] It makes sense worse because they can focus around attacking that person.

[00:18:31] It's awful.

[00:18:32] And what's interesting here, you see, you talk about,

[00:18:34] you don't think the same forces are at work in the UK, but they are.

[00:18:38] And there are extreme religious anti-abortion campaign groups

[00:18:41] who are already lobbying to restrict abortion rights from 24 weeks down to 22.

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:48] And they are already working, lobbying.

[00:18:53] And of course, is working with the defender of all freedoms now, Nigel Forage,

[00:18:57] because apparently he's working with an extreme religious anti-abortion campaign group.

[00:19:02] Because what he's talking about is,

[00:19:06] this is, you know, there shouldn't be abortion laws at all.

[00:19:10] There shouldn't be limits.

[00:19:11] There just shouldn't be, you know, there shouldn't be abortions.

[00:19:14] And I think, I mean, some of these are funded by extreme Christian nationalists.

[00:19:20] Some of them are funded from the States.

[00:19:22] I think the playbook, I genuinely believe that the playbook at work in the States

[00:19:28] will cross the pond and come over here.

[00:19:31] And it'll have to be different over here because we're not quite such a pretend religious,

[00:19:37] sorry, we're not such a religious, an outwardly religious community.

[00:19:42] We're a pretty secular society.

[00:19:43] Yeah, I mean, you know, talking about his sister dying today,

[00:19:45] and we're listening to religious people saying, oh, that's really terrible.

[00:19:48] But anyone who's gone, I don't want to divert ourselves into his sister dying.

[00:19:52] Yeah, that's definitely.

[00:19:53] That's a different one.

[00:19:54] But I mean, what we have to remember is there is a lot of,

[00:19:58] there is a lot of religious interference in this country.

[00:20:01] And, you know, what is it, only a million churchgoers,

[00:20:04] a half a million churchgoers now?

[00:20:05] It's, you know, there are more people watch Star Wars or something, they go to church.

[00:20:10] Yeah.

[00:20:11] No, I don't, I don't, I'm not saying there isn't any anti-abortion movement in this country.

[00:20:17] I just think it's so far down.

[00:20:19] I mean, none of the main political parties would be talking about it.

[00:20:22] And certainly not a ban in abortion.

[00:20:25] It's just not, it's been, it's been decades.

[00:20:29] It's been, you know, one of the top three or four issues in American politics.

[00:20:33] It just isn't in this country.

[00:20:35] And I hope I prove wrong.

[00:20:37] I don't believe that it will be.

[00:20:39] I don't think there's any strength of view in this country to damage abortion rights in this country,

[00:20:44] anywhere near what it is in America.

[00:20:46] And we don't have a debate on good, they do.

[00:20:49] So I think there are things that are fundamentally different.

[00:20:52] And that's why I think, you know, and as I said, I go back to the point that the anti-trans stuff in this country has been driven,

[00:21:00] particularly, you know, driven by the turf movement.

[00:21:03] And that's why kids call it Turf Island.

[00:21:05] You know, it's sort of different in America.

[00:21:08] There's not such a view on the, you know, what you would see as left or being anti-trans.

[00:21:14] It's very much a different split.

[00:21:17] You know, we know there's transphobes in the Labour Party.

[00:21:20] I don't know that there's, you know, there's definitely a couple of transphobes in the Labour Party, you know, I would regard.

[00:21:28] But the vast majority are not.

[00:21:30] So I just think it is, I think it's right to be cautious of that.

[00:21:34] But I also think it's right not to forget this is attacking trans people, right?

[00:21:38] This is an attack on that, or as a minority, that minority.

[00:21:42] And it definitely, as you said, has potential to obviously be harmful to all women.

[00:21:49] Yeah.

[00:21:49] And I think that's the point, because I think being insular on this event is the way that we, is the way to avoid actually garnering more public support.

[00:21:58] I think seeing it as a simply, so I think it's seeing it simply as an anti-trans issue, I think is, is, is, is, is an issue for me.

[00:22:06] I think you have to mobilise the wider community to say that this is an issue.

[00:22:12] This is an issue that's going to affect everybody because this is about freedom and legislation.

[00:22:17] It's not, you know, we're just, we're just the latest people in the firing line.

[00:22:21] And then once, it's that classic thing, isn't it?

[00:22:23] What is it?

[00:22:23] Once they went for the socialists and I did nothing, they went for this person that did nothing.

[00:22:28] Then they came for me and there was nobody left.

[00:22:29] I think this is, this is the classic thing we do at our peril is to see this as just a being about us.

[00:22:35] I just generally don't think it is.

[00:22:37] I think it's right that we want to get as many people to support us.

[00:22:41] I don't think we should lose sight of the fact this is an attack on trans people.

[00:22:45] That's all.

[00:22:46] That's where I'm on.

[00:22:47] Because once you say, well, this is actually, let's make it this about women as a whole.

[00:22:51] That's fine.

[00:22:51] Where do trans men, where do non-binary people sit in that?

[00:22:55] And it is attack on trans people in this country.

[00:22:57] It is explicitly that.

[00:22:59] I think you're absolutely right that once you start rolling back progression,

[00:23:02] and I can't really think in this country of any progressive rights have been rolled back in legislation.

[00:23:09] I think we've always had progress.

[00:23:11] Sometimes, you know, you take a slight step back, but we go further.

[00:23:14] But, you know, attacking and bringing in laws or bringing in rules like they're trying to do to, you know, focus on single sex spaces over gender.

[00:23:27] We can't, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that it's an attack on our community.

[00:23:31] It just definitely has impacts wider than that.

[00:23:34] And I think it's persuading people that.

[00:23:35] I just, in widening that message, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact attacking trans people is wrong, immoral and abhorrent.

[00:23:44] But it is also wrong and immoral and abhorrent to attack a lot of people.

[00:23:48] But I think we could, if we went too far and just thought there's been a women's issue, where does that leave trans men and non-binary people?

[00:23:57] Because actually, there is no massive outcry against trans masc and non-binary people.

[00:24:04] I would disagree.

[00:24:06] I speak to a lot of non-binary people and they're constantly missed, they're constantly not validated in terms of, they can't even have on their passports a marker that identifies who they are.

[00:24:18] They have to have something that says they are male or female.

[00:24:21] That, to me, is an attack on them.

[00:24:23] And then they would say that, I would believe.

[00:24:25] I think it's a different mechanism.

[00:24:27] It's not so front and centre in everybody's face.

[00:24:29] Because it's, you know, you're not getting Rishi Sunak, you know, well, when Rishi Sunak stands up at the Tory party conference and makes some comments disparaging the idea that pronouns are important, that attacks non-binary people.

[00:24:43] In fact, more so in many ways than trans people, because, you know, whenever I've been misgendered, it's been by accident and very occasionally.

[00:24:54] But non-binary people I speak to in the workplace are exhausted for having to remind people that they are valid.

[00:25:01] And I recently did some training where, just since last week, where somebody was talking about, I was talking about non-binary and talking about, well, made some comments along the lines of, well, is it because non-binary people just haven't been able to find out who they are?

[00:25:14] And maybe we should get some therapy and help to decide on what gender they are, right?

[00:25:20] So I agree.

[00:25:21] I agree it's not as front and centre as, because it's much more easy to attack trans women, isn't it?

[00:25:26] You know, you can go, oh, God, think of the children, think of safety in single-sex spaces, even though there is no examples that anybody can cite of that being an issue.

[00:25:38] So, you know, you're right.

[00:25:39] But I would say if this becomes just a women's issue, then how does that leave the rest of our community, you know, where it's not necessarily about that?

[00:25:50] They're just pretending trans men don't exist, aren't they?

[00:25:54] Yeah, but I think we're conflating two different things here.

[00:25:57] So I guess what I'm trying to say is, of course, any attack on our community is terrible, if we indeed are a community.

[00:26:04] Let's just say any attack is awful.

[00:26:06] And I agree that it doesn't matter who it is.

[00:26:08] But what I'm talking about is how do we campaign?

[00:26:11] How do we move forward?

[00:26:13] And what I'm saying is, yes, we all know the playbook from our community about, you know, what life's like.

[00:26:19] But what I'm saying is in order to be able to campaign and move forward, you have to be able to engage with the wider issue.

[00:26:26] Yeah.

[00:26:26] And unless we can, until we win the argument that we are probably the strongest, maybe not the strongest, we probably have a vested interest in maintaining women's rights.

[00:26:37] We have a vested interest in actually having true equality for women and, you know, access for treatment, workers' rights, whatever it might be.

[00:26:47] Unless we're coming out and saying those things really, really strongly, really powerfully all the time.

[00:26:53] That's our narrative rather than we need to protect our pronouns and we need to have access to toilets.

[00:26:59] People, in terms of campaigning I'm talking about here, that's the message that we got there.

[00:27:05] I don't think people are going to understand what we are and what we're for and how we are actually part of this community.

[00:27:09] I'm talking, yes, specifically about trans women here because I think we are the bleeding edge of this problem or the opportunity for people who want to attack the entire community.

[00:27:23] And I think I don't want to confuse those issues.

[00:27:27] So I'm talking here about teaming up with a huge percentage of the population winning the case.

[00:27:34] You know, there's only a small percentage of the population who are massively anti-trans who are TERF.

[00:27:38] And, you know, maybe we've got to start engaging with those people and start having conversations with them and actually, you know, getting them to think about the other side of the situation and what's going on here.

[00:27:49] Because I think once they're focused on us, they're not focusing, as I've said millions of times, when they're focusing on us, they're not focusing on the real enemy.

[00:27:57] I think there's something in that.

[00:27:59] I think there are people that maybe are persuadable.

[00:28:01] Are you saying that, you know, with any chance of sitting down with J.K. Rowling and persuading her that this is a women's issue and she needs to roll back on her views?

[00:28:08] I don't believe that for a second with some people.

[00:28:11] I mean, I've seen what they've said.

[00:28:13] There are people who've said that we should not exist.

[00:28:15] Brands women are a problem in a sane society.

[00:28:18] Something like that was a couple of the notorious.

[00:28:20] Yes, but in the history of all conflicts, Palestinians have sat down with Arabs.

[00:28:25] Israelis have sat down with Egyptians.

[00:28:28] You've got to sit down with the enemy at some point because you have to look at the wider problem here.

[00:28:34] And we're fighting here.

[00:28:35] I get that to agree, but I've had that told to me.

[00:28:38] And maybe I'm prepared to say maybe I've not got this right, you know, in terms of my view of which can be a bit fundamentalist of not giving an inch.

[00:28:48] Right.

[00:28:48] So I think I'm prepared to understand I might be wrong on this, Jill.

[00:28:51] Well, and I think, you know, I think it's sort of, in a sense, you've persuaded me on that.

[00:28:55] But, you know, I've said this to a kid when I've been told, I think it was told on Twitter, somebody I know and respect, oh, you've got to listen to that argument.

[00:29:06] You should sit down and listen to them.

[00:29:07] And you would not tell anybody of colour in this country to go and listen to somebody from the National Front, you know, or a racist.

[00:29:15] Right.

[00:29:16] We're told we've got to go and talk to people that some people that hate our existence and do not want us to exist.

[00:29:24] I think that's a stretch for many of us.

[00:29:26] I think there are I think there's a middle ground of people that we need to persuade.

[00:29:30] I'm right on that.

[00:29:31] But I've been told that before.

[00:29:34] We should listen to this argument from Dr. Kathleen Stock.

[00:29:37] I shouldn't.

[00:29:38] I don't.

[00:29:38] She's clearly of a view that I should not exist as a woman in society.

[00:29:43] She doesn't respect me as a woman.

[00:29:44] So I find that ground a bit too difficult to breach at the moment.

[00:29:49] I think those people, I don't think we are going to persuade.

[00:29:53] What we need to do is is those few people that in the last few years have started to have a more negative view because of the deluge of press, media and politics.

[00:30:03] And I think that's where most are.

[00:30:05] Because if you look how the attitude survey, generally people are not anti-trans.

[00:30:12] But the numbers are rising over the last several years.

[00:30:16] And that's my point.

[00:30:17] Some of those people are definitely, I mean, look, I think I've changed.

[00:30:22] A few people when I've been doing training, because they've been able to talk to me as a trans woman and I've been able to put that through, have I think come across, have slightly changed their perceptions.

[00:30:33] Because the only information they had previously was the newspapers.

[00:30:37] But I do also think we've got to be careful about giving ground.

[00:30:42] I'm not going to change my view that pronouns should and should be respected at all times from any reasonable person.

[00:30:51] And that we should not tolerate as a society.

[00:30:54] I'm not saying we should make it illegal.

[00:30:55] We should not tolerate somebody invalidating another person by deliberately using the wrong pronouns.

[00:31:03] There's things I just think, because once you do that, you're invalidating.

[00:31:06] Because that language validates us.

[00:31:07] And if you invalidate me as a woman, that's anti-trans in my book in any way.

[00:31:13] So I think you're right, Jill.

[00:31:15] I mean, maybe I have to.

[00:31:16] And part of this podcast has been a learning for me, Jill.

[00:31:19] Because I think I am pretty strident in my views at times.

[00:31:24] And I think, you know, through some of the things you've said, it's made me think a bit more.

[00:31:28] Yeah, and vice versa.

[00:31:31] You see, maybe I'm more of a hopeless romantic.

[00:31:37] That's definitely more than me, Jill.

[00:31:38] There may be two different things.

[00:31:40] But I look at Ireland.

[00:31:43] I look at South Africa.

[00:31:45] I look at the Middle East, not currently.

[00:31:47] I look at Bosnia-Serb, you know, not currently, but as it was.

[00:31:51] You know, I look at these vast warring factions of people who were in a much worse state than demeaning and talking.

[00:32:00] I mean, they were killing each other.

[00:32:01] You know, people in Rwanda and that terrible civil war, the Shebranitsa and all those places.

[00:32:07] Those people eventually had to sit down with each other.

[00:32:10] And they had to talk to each other.

[00:32:11] And they have to hammer out a way of working.

[00:32:14] And I actually think that people like the TERFs and ourselves are much closer together than those sorts of communities.

[00:32:23] In what way?

[00:32:23] In what way on trans stuff, though?

[00:32:25] In what way of people saying that I should...

[00:32:28] No, we're not killing each other.

[00:32:30] Well, that's a lot closer.

[00:32:31] That is closer.

[00:32:33] But on the point of, if you say we're any closer to changing views of getting one of the leading, notorious anti-trans TERFs to accept me as a woman and accept me when I've been in an elected position in my union as a woman and using women's facilities all the time, which I have done for 20 years.

[00:32:55] If you can get them to do that.

[00:33:24] In a few countries, it's even death penalty and things.

[00:33:28] You know, like they have...

[00:33:29] But that's...

[00:33:29] But that's...

[00:33:30] And that's not just trans...

[00:33:31] That's LGBT.

[00:33:33] Okay.

[00:33:33] That's not here.

[00:33:33] I'm not trying to say that.

[00:33:35] No, no, no.

[00:33:35] But you're right.

[00:33:35] Anyway.

[00:33:36] That happens.

[00:33:37] But it's not just us.

[00:33:38] I mean, I used to work in Africa.

[00:33:39] And it's all of the letters.

[00:33:41] It's a...

[00:33:42] I've seen 10 years of progress backwards.

[00:33:46] Yeah.

[00:33:46] In terms of some of the discourse in the press on this.

[00:33:52] And I'm yet to see a turnaround or a bottoming out of this.

[00:33:55] So when you're saying I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful with younger people, a new generation that might turn this around in 20 years.

[00:34:03] But this is...

[00:34:04] I can't think of a group...

[00:34:08] The only group of immigrants to this country who have been marginalised and demonised.

[00:34:12] And it ended up with riots on this.

[00:34:14] Racists took to the streets to riot about that recently.

[00:34:17] Certainly.

[00:34:18] Other than that, if you look at any other rights, LGBTQ rights, women's rights, disability rights, there's been a steady, if not past in North, progress.

[00:34:28] This is the one area where we actually find ourselves going back, where people are now talking about restricting our lives and restricting our abilities and restricting our abilities to live.

[00:34:38] Because if you sell a trans person can't go to the loo and they're out and about and need to go to the loo, what are you doing?

[00:34:44] You're going to end up making that trans person stay at home.

[00:34:47] I mean, that's the reality of what they're trying to do.

[00:34:50] And that is oppressing us and pushing us back on.

[00:34:53] That's a form of oppression against a small group of people.

[00:34:59] So maybe I should be a bit more of a hopeless romantic still and look at the positives.

[00:35:04] Because there are positives out there, society positives.

[00:35:06] I've always said I've never had any pushback in my day-to-day life.

[00:35:11] People accept me as a woman, even though I don't pass.

[00:35:15] And nobody's ever said, I've never even had any comments using women's loos in 20 years.

[00:35:21] I mean, you know, not one.

[00:35:23] But whether that's different now, I don't know.

[00:35:25] I don't go out all that much.

[00:35:28] But I think I need to be more hopeful like you, Jill, I think.

[00:35:34] I can't decide if hopeless romantic or just optimist is better.

[00:35:38] Because I suppose as a psychologist, I've got this, and a positive psychologist does.

[00:35:43] I always have this idea of redemption with people.

[00:35:48] And, you know, people aren't hateful.

[00:35:50] People just say hateful things.

[00:35:52] And people hold hateful views.

[00:35:53] It doesn't make people hateful.

[00:35:55] I suppose that's why I could sit down and talk to J.K.R.

[00:35:57] Yeah, I think that's something I need to learn a bit more.

[00:36:01] Because I've said before how I put people in camps who are either for me or against me.

[00:36:07] So if somebody says the slightest thing that's anti-trans, I sort of think, well, you're against me.

[00:36:11] I need to be a more artist.

[00:36:13] My spirit animal is Eeyore when in the poo.

[00:36:16] So I'm probably never going to be quite there.

[00:36:21] But, you know, but I also think you've got to do you, haven't you?

[00:36:25] And I do me.

[00:36:26] And that's the thing.

[00:36:27] And no one's saying that you have to change because, you know, you've got your right to be as you are.

[00:36:32] And I think that's the point about our population, isn't it?

[00:36:35] You know, we are as we are.

[00:36:37] And, you know, what we're saying is we just want other people to accept us in the way that we accept them.

[00:36:42] And, you know, we don't always get that acceptance, nor do we get it the other way around.

[00:36:47] So that's where we're trying to get to.

[00:36:50] There will always be people who deny our existence, who don't like us or whatever it is, in the sense that anybody who's different.

[00:36:57] I mean, it's a human thing to not to be threatened by outgroups.

[00:37:01] And we are one of those.

[00:37:03] And so people are threatened.

[00:37:04] And it's, you know, the key for me is how you build the resilience in our community.

[00:37:08] Because actually, we have to get over.

[00:37:12] We have to focus on the really big issues now and stop, you know, sweating the small stuff so much now.

[00:37:18] I really do think we've got to focus on quietly and calmly getting better access to health care.

[00:37:24] Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

[00:37:26] I think it's time that we had another trans MP.

[00:37:29] You know, I've actually seriously thought about standing in a political race because up here I can see the Labour MP is not going to last long.

[00:37:38] And, you know, so you've got to do something.

[00:37:41] Otherwise, nothing happens.

[00:37:45] I agree.

[00:37:46] And, you know, the reason I'm an activist now when, you know, I've said before, in the first five years, I wasn't that active in terms of trans-warriety.

[00:37:55] It sort of wasn't on the agenda so much until the Equality Act came in.

[00:37:59] And I got involved at that point.

[00:38:01] Would I rather just be living my life as a woman and not be dealing with it?

[00:38:06] Maybe.

[00:38:07] Maybe I would.

[00:38:08] Maybe I would be a coward.

[00:38:09] And coward's the wrong word.

[00:38:11] Maybe I would, I apologize, it's a really wrong word, but maybe I would, if I was able to live my life and nobody knew I was trans, maybe I would have tried to leave everything behind me.

[00:38:21] But I've also felt existing and being seen is important, as you said, and standing and being visible.

[00:38:27] And I try to be visible.

[00:38:30] You know, it is important.

[00:38:31] I always quote, I always quote you when you talk about this being visible as a sign of resistance.

[00:38:37] And I love that.

[00:38:38] I think that's, it's something you said right from the very beginning.

[00:38:41] I've taken on my silence.

[00:38:43] And just, just being yourself, just existing, just existing is, is a poke in the eye for people that don't like us.

[00:38:49] And just going out to, getting your shop, getting your shop, you know, go to the shops and getting some clothes or buying some food or, you know, go to the cinema and all that sort of stuff.

[00:38:58] Just, just living your life is, is, it twists the knife in people that hate us.

[00:39:03] And sometimes that's enough, isn't it?

[00:39:05] I did, I did crib that from an LGBTQ activist that I can't remember who it was.

[00:39:10] Well, that's very generous of what you say.

[00:39:12] Because I've been attributing you.

[00:39:14] But yes, but it was the same for lesbian and gay people in the 80s and 90s, being out and open and being able to be out is, is at that time was definitely a form of, of activism in itself.

[00:39:25] Because we see, we see in that way.

[00:39:27] And then one thing I tried to do is the few times I got the chance to be on telly or radio, was it not to be about trans things, you know?

[00:39:35] So when I got on to question time audience and was able to be on camera, on telly, asking a question, it was not on anything to do with trans.

[00:39:45] And I thought that was important.

[00:39:48] The outcome of that wasn't so great on Twitter, but that aside.

[00:39:52] No, I think, I think, I think we are on the same page.

[00:39:55] I think you're right as a community.

[00:39:56] We said both of that this previously, we're not very coalesced as a community about how to,

[00:40:01] I don't think we all know exactly how we need to, to, to, to come, you know, to build activism and build a base around this.

[00:40:09] I think it's very difficult.

[00:40:12] Yeah, because we're so disparate and so dark.

[00:40:14] We're diverse as a community, but we're also spread around, you know?

[00:40:18] We meet online, but often we don't meet anybody else that's in my community in terms of trans itself.

[00:40:25] But yeah, I'm going to take, try and take some positivity, Jill.

[00:40:28] Good.

[00:40:28] Become hopeless romantic.

[00:40:29] I always leave our talks feeling a little bit more positive.

[00:40:32] No matter what the subject, Jill, you always leave me a little bit more positive.

[00:40:38] Well, I'll tell you something.

[00:40:39] Here's a challenge.

[00:40:40] Go on.

[00:40:42] Because I know you're, you're very, I know you're very savvy when it comes to the popular, the world of popular culture.

[00:40:49] So I'm going to be a hopeless, I'm going to be a hopeless romantic.

[00:40:53] You know, background as a mediator suddenly struck me why I would be.

[00:40:56] And then you can be a hopeless new romantic and you can have a new hairstyle and stand and deliver.

[00:41:03] It's sort of, yes, I could see me as new romantic now.

[00:41:07] So we're going back to our cultural references of the 80s now.

[00:41:10] I don't know.

[00:41:10] Which is better than make that manner, as it has to be said.

[00:41:12] Just trying to think about who I would look like.

[00:41:15] And I don't think it, I don't think I can pull it off anymore, Jill, if I'm being honest.

[00:41:22] Well, I'm happy to give it a thought.

[00:41:24] Yes.

[00:41:25] There was someone, wasn't there?

[00:41:26] Remember Renee and Renata?

[00:41:28] I could, I could pull up, I could, I don't know which one I could do best, actually.

[00:41:31] Yeah.

[00:41:32] There's a deep cut.

[00:41:34] Yeah.

[00:41:34] Save your love, my darling, save your love.

[00:41:37] That was the song.

[00:41:38] I feel a chorus coming on.

[00:41:39] Well, on that note, I shall see you next week, my darling.

[00:41:42] Look forward to it.

[00:41:44] Take care, everyone.

[00:41:44] Bye.

[00:41:45] Bye.

[00:41:49] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox.

[00:41:52] It's been a joy to have you with us.

[00:41:54] If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at jillian at transvox.co.uk

[00:42:01] and all of our money goes to our nominated charity.

[00:42:05] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes.

[00:42:09] Which one have you chosen?

[00:42:10] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling

[00:42:16] to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK.

[00:42:21] An amazing charity doing some amazing work.

[00:42:23] Really important.

[00:42:24] So please, if you can give.

[00:42:27] Great.

[00:42:27] And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.

[00:42:32] But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help

[00:42:36] the people who help us.

[00:42:38] Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments,

[00:42:43] applause, or brick baths, feel free to send it all in to Jillian at transvox.co.uk.

[00:42:50] Until the next time, goodbye.

[00:42:53] Bye-bye.