This week, Gillian and Jenny discuss the fall-out from the US elections, Trans Day of Remembrance (TDOR) and Trans Awareness Week. Discussions covered the need for strategic activism, increased visibility and representation, and the importance of engaging with power structures to effect change.
They both highlighted the significant amount of money spent on anti-trans ads, which they felt was a dangerous level of resources being directed against a small percentage of the population. Gillian. expresses concern that this rhetoric could lead to a rollback of trans rights, while Jenny believes the economy was the main factor driving voters rather than social issues like trans rights. They acknowledge the worrying implications for the trans community, but Jenny suggests the anti-trans messaging may not have swayed many voters. Overall, they see the need for the LGBTQ+ community to unite against the broader threat of right-wing populism and religious conservatism.
They agreed that the community needs to be more strategic and active in engaging with power and influencing decision-makers. They also acknowledged the need for greater cohesion within the community and the importance of having more openly trans politicians in positions of power. Jenny suggested that the community needs to pick the right battles and be more organised, while Dr emphasised the need to look outward and engage with those in positions of power. They both agreed that the community has relied too heavily on activism and not enough on strategic engagement with power.
They also discussed the influence of unions on policy, particularly in relation to the rights of the LGBT community. Jenny highlighted the positive stance of their union towards self-organised groups and trans rights in the workplace. They also discussed the challenges of lobbying the current UK government, which Jenny believes is more open to their cause than previous conservative governments. Dr suggested that they need to adapt to a more turbulent world, using the example of the Middle East's political instability. The conversation ended with a discussion on the need to strategically "stay low" in order to effectively influence policy in the future.
They discussed the importance of Trans Day Remembrance, which is observed on the 20th of November. They highlighted the high levels of violence against the trans community, particularly black trans women in America. Jenny mentioned that the event was founded by Gwendolyn Ann Smith and has since become a significant day for the community to come together and remember those who have lost their lives due to violence, hate, and discrimination. They also discussed the impact of losing community members, with Jenny sharing her experiences from the late 90s when she first joined an online trans community. The conversation ended with a reflection on the unique challenges faced by the trans community.
Hope you enjoy and find this useful.
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You can submit questions to gillian@transvox.co.uk
[00:00:06] Hi, hi, hi and welcome back to Transvox. And I know you were Skyping last week, Jenny, and missed our recording session. We had the lovely Joe Harwood on talking to us about problems with the trans issues, problem and trans issues around the beauty industry. And I thought we should really have a chat about problems in the trans world around the American election because we did a few pre-election conversations and we had our fingers crossed and our toes crossed and our, well, everything crossed.
[00:00:35] Sadly, the only thing we didn't cross was an election paper because we couldn't do that. But see what I did there. But first of all, welcome to you. Let's talk elections.
[00:00:45] Hi there, Jill. Yes, great to see you again. Sorry, I was otherwise tied up. It was a very interesting podcast. And when you're looking at beauty products, you probably don't need me. I'm certainly no expert there. So that was very interesting. But yeah, glad to be back.
[00:01:00] Well, what a couple of weeks has been. I mean, I mean, well, I mean, all I can say is this. I know there's a huge amount of pushback from the States. I know there's a huge amount of trans brothers and sisters out there who are in the States. I know non-binary people as well are struggling.
[00:01:21] The intersex world are sort of reeling. And I think anyone in America at the moment is caught between just a complete fear and a sense of what's going to happen and, you know, what's going to happen next.
[00:01:36] And, you know, and some of them are actually making plans, have made plans, are making new plans, you know, planning to move states or whatever.
[00:01:44] But it's a parlous state of affairs for the community out there.
[00:01:49] Yeah, no, it's, you know, I can't say in the end we were shocked because we knew it was going to be a close election.
[00:01:56] You know, I was hopeful at the start of the evening about some of three.
[00:02:01] I always hope to stay up all night, watch it because I do love the politics.
[00:02:04] But by three o'clock I thought I had that Brexit feeling again when I remember listening to those results and I thought it's time for me to tap out.
[00:02:14] And obviously in the morning the horror of the result was there.
[00:02:19] But, yeah, and I think it's had a big effect on our community.
[00:02:23] Of course, with our comrades over in America, parts of our community over there, it's devastating for them.
[00:02:32] But, you know, we've also seen the effect it's had in this country as well.
[00:02:36] I mean, all the groups I've been in, you know, networks and support groups and things, it's been the first step of the conversation.
[00:02:43] I mean, after all, how are you supposed to think when, you know, the biggest, most important elections in the world generally,
[00:02:52] one of the parties spent a quarter of a million pounds on anti-transit.
[00:02:57] And that was just the network TV ads, let alone all the ads on social media.
[00:03:01] You know, spent a quarter of a billion, sorry, 200.
[00:03:05] I was going to say, it's much more than that.
[00:03:07] It's not a quarter of a billion.
[00:03:08] Two hundred and ten, two hundred and fifteen million pounds they spent.
[00:03:12] And that was just on network TV ads.
[00:03:14] So if you think about the other ads they use on social media and everywhere else,
[00:03:17] and those were targeted against anti-trans.
[00:03:20] I don't know how anybody in our community can feel safe when that level of resources have been brought down on 1% of the population.
[00:03:31] It's extraordinary.
[00:03:33] And it has to be said, it has to be said, some of that, as someone, I mean, it was horrible.
[00:03:39] But actually what they did was played brilliantly into the fears and needs and the scaremongering of having a wedge community that you can push against.
[00:03:54] And we now know the reason they've been pushing against us, because they're using those laws to crack down on abortion rights, women's rights.
[00:04:01] And all the fuss that women have made about, you know, the threat coming from trans women, you know, is clearly now surely obvious to all that.
[00:04:10] That was never a threat.
[00:04:12] You know, it was, I mean, religious right have actually got their teeth right into the abortion route.
[00:04:17] They've got their teeth right into the potentially removing one of the old amendments, which effectively give women the vote.
[00:04:24] I saw some of the Christian, far right Christian nationalists talking about women losing the vote and being owned by men again.
[00:04:32] I mean, it's what's going on over there is truly bonkers.
[00:04:35] And I think it's time for, I think it's time for women, all sorts of women, whatever type of woman you are, trans, cis, whatevs.
[00:04:44] It's time to actually realise that fighting with each other is entirely the wrong strategy here.
[00:04:50] And there's a bigger game in town than just fighting with trans people.
[00:04:54] It's a pity that, you know, some of the gender critical people weren't trained, training their sights on the real enemy here.
[00:05:00] Because what we have to notice is that Trump has swung right.
[00:05:05] Populism has hit America.
[00:05:07] Well, actually, it's a form of American, like an American Taliban state is going to be now, because women are talking about covering up.
[00:05:14] We're talking about the fact that there's a campaign that says your body, my right is a man because, you know, what's going on there.
[00:05:22] I mean, what's happening in the States is something we should be aware of because it's in Hungary.
[00:05:27] It's in potentially in Germany.
[00:05:29] It's potentially in France.
[00:05:31] You know, soon with the Labour government, they will be under pressure as well to start weaponising our community to avoid us being, you know, trashed at the hands of the reform people and the far right Tory people.
[00:05:46] And I think it's time to start, instead of fighting back, it's time to become a lot more strategic, I think, about how we think about our rights rolling forward.
[00:05:54] I think you're right.
[00:05:56] I mean, I'm in that sort of two mind space about this because, you know, looking at a lot of the coverage leading up to it, actually after nobody, you know, the general public voting in all those elections, trans rights is pretty far down the list of priorities.
[00:06:13] And it seems to me this was, you know, ultimately these elections and almost every election post COVID has been lost by incumbent governments.
[00:06:24] And with the inflation rise, you know, whatever the, you know, the inflation rises call that people feel poorer.
[00:06:30] And it was Bill Clinton said, wasn't it?
[00:06:33] It's the economy stupid when it comes to elections.
[00:06:35] And that's what it was, whether it's fair, right or not or thought out.
[00:06:39] People feel people are definitely feeling worse off.
[00:06:42] And on that basis, they voted for what they perceived as change.
[00:06:47] Whether actually that message, that anti-trans message really cut through and turned many people's votes, I sort of doubt.
[00:06:57] And it was the same here in the end.
[00:06:59] I mean, it certainly didn't help the Conservatives to have such an overt anti-trans message.
[00:07:03] I don't think enough people care enough for that to be really anything other.
[00:07:10] It created that wedge issue, which is, I think, what you're hinting at.
[00:07:14] It creates that impression.
[00:07:14] And I think one of the successful lads that they ran, they ran with this mantra, you know,
[00:07:22] Donald Trump is for you, Kamala is for they them, right?
[00:07:27] Which is a line that did, I think, cut through.
[00:07:32] But I think it's more about hers being perceived establishment rather than they're using the they then to sort of, you know, hint towards that woke stuff.
[00:07:41] But it fell in with the con line that Donald Trump is somehow for everyday people and working people, which he isn't.
[00:07:50] But that was their line.
[00:07:52] And they used the sport issue as well a lot, which is such a moral issue.
[00:07:56] Because there's so few trans people in the scheme of things participating in sport.
[00:08:00] And it's really not an issue.
[00:08:02] So there's sort of, you know, I'm sort of in two minds about how, what the outcome of that is.
[00:08:09] What I would really hope, and I hope in this country, is that analysts don't see the results and think, oh, you've got to be anti-trans because you're not going to be elected.
[00:08:17] Because I don't think that at all, personally.
[00:08:21] I think he would still have won if he hadn't done any anti-trans ads.
[00:08:23] But it's just, again, it's the idea that it's normalising anti-trans views and marginalisers.
[00:08:30] So it's difficult to see what the outcome.
[00:08:33] And in America, though, what's really worrying is, you know, they're going to, they're probably going to, or they're maybe looking at ending federal support for gender care.
[00:08:42] There may be, I think I read somewhere about them codifying within federal law that there are only two sexes and those are assigned at birth.
[00:08:52] Which is, I suppose, a statement rather than a law, because trans people are still going to exist, whether you want to recognise that or not.
[00:09:00] But yes, it must be really worrying to be out there, to have a child or yourself be trans or non-binary and seeing what happens.
[00:09:12] But yeah, I'm still processing really what it actually means.
[00:09:19] And the more and more I think about it, I think it was a vote about the economy in the main.
[00:09:24] And, you know, and he didn't get more votes.
[00:09:28] It was Republicans' votes didn't come out, did they?
[00:09:32] No, Democrats didn't come out.
[00:09:34] Well, then again, the last election was COVID, wasn't it?
[00:09:37] And people could send in postal votes.
[00:09:39] So that's why the turnout was higher.
[00:09:40] So maybe it's difficult to.
[00:09:44] I think the truth, however we analyse it, Jill, is the effect it's had in our community, which has just been battered and battered and battered.
[00:09:52] And this feels like another punch to us as a community.
[00:09:57] Don't you think?
[00:09:58] It has.
[00:09:59] Yeah.
[00:09:59] It has.
[00:10:00] And I think, but I think it is, I think, but I think it is time now to start.
[00:10:05] I was listening to a very interesting programme.
[00:10:07] I think it was the news agents, actually, whether it was US.
[00:10:10] I think it was US.
[00:10:10] And they were talking about the strategy that the Christian nationalists have had for the last 30 years, ever since Roe versus Wade was adopted.
[00:10:18] They've worked very strategically to get people into positions of power who are either allies or are overtly supporting their cause.
[00:10:26] And what they've done, slowly but surely, slowly but surely, they've sponsored people.
[00:10:30] I mean, you know, Trump wasn't a religious fundamentalist.
[00:10:33] I know he wears the clothes of any of the fancies just to get power.
[00:10:36] No.
[00:10:37] But, I mean, they were behind the Tea Party.
[00:10:38] They were behind all of these different, you know, more and more extreme parties.
[00:10:43] And they're funding, of course, MAGA and such like.
[00:10:45] And, you know, they've been part of reshaping the Supreme Court.
[00:10:49] And, of course, come the moment, had even the Democrats got back into power, there would have been so many right-wing people in positions of authority within the states that things for trans people and women were going to get harder and harder with the rise of anti-abortion rights and such like.
[00:11:04] And I think it's time for our communities to stop in like this.
[00:11:07] You know, where's trans representation and reforming in the Tory party?
[00:11:12] Because if you're going to have a Tory government in the future, and we will have one eventually, maybe even in five years' time, unless we engage with those people.
[00:11:21] And I remember talking to Shea from Transactual, a really powerful force in our community.
[00:11:28] And he was telling me that there are, you know, gay and trans people who are Tories.
[00:11:32] And I'm thinking, well, OK, well, it's time to mobilize those folks.
[00:11:36] It's time to have the conversations.
[00:11:39] It is time to be in positions of power.
[00:11:42] Because if we just sit on the sides sort of wringing our hands, I don't think we're going to get very far.
[00:11:47] It's time to be strategic.
[00:11:49] I agree.
[00:11:51] I agree about that.
[00:11:52] And I agree to a degree.
[00:11:53] I agree that, yes, you do need to engage.
[00:11:56] But also you need to be active.
[00:11:59] You need to be organized and active.
[00:12:00] No civil rights were run from, have been won by just talking and trying to persuade people who hate you.
[00:12:06] Well, the anti-abortion rights in America.
[00:12:11] Do you mean, well, yeah, that's anti.
[00:12:14] I'm talking about improving civil rights.
[00:12:17] You know, you go back to Stonewall.
[00:12:19] You know, it sometimes does take action to win progress.
[00:12:24] Now, it may well be that we could do this by persuasion.
[00:12:27] And there are plenty of people.
[00:12:28] I mean, we can't forget.
[00:12:30] I don't forget that it was Theresa May's government, a Tory government, that sought to improve a lot of trans people.
[00:12:38] Right.
[00:12:38] And it was David Cameron's government that introduced equal rights.
[00:12:41] Now, neither of those governments I would have ever voted for, just politically.
[00:12:45] But there was a consensus in the UK.
[00:12:49] As I said, the rank, I talk about it when I was in the training.
[00:12:53] There was a ranking in there of European countries by an organization called ILGA, International Gay and Lesbian Association.
[00:13:00] But they include trans.
[00:13:01] And in 2015, under that 70 government, the UK were ranked the most progressive country for LGBTQ plus rights.
[00:13:11] And now we're 17.
[00:13:12] So it's certainly possible that there is a consensus there.
[00:13:18] And you're right.
[00:13:19] I do think we have to engage and talk.
[00:13:21] But I also do think we have to be active.
[00:13:23] I don't think we, if we see...
[00:13:25] I'm not saying one at the expense of the other.
[00:13:28] But I think we've relied too long on activism.
[00:13:30] And we haven't been strategic in actually really engaging with power play.
[00:13:35] You know, when you look at our entire community with all the letters, there are huge numbers of people who are in positions of power,
[00:13:44] who are LGBT, QIA plus, some people who run some of the largest corporations in the world, I think, isn't the head of Apple gay.
[00:13:55] And there will be people who are in British corporations and British organizations who are part of our community,
[00:14:02] who probably aren't...
[00:14:05] They probably need to operate in a different way because they're people who probably don't want to be jumping around on the back of buses
[00:14:12] or painting, you know, throwing paint around or whatever it is.
[00:14:17] There are more...
[00:14:18] There's more than one way to be active.
[00:14:19] And I don't think the community's figured out yet alternative approaches.
[00:14:25] I don't think we're cohesive enough as a community.
[00:14:27] I think that's right.
[00:14:28] I don't think we've been particularly active.
[00:14:30] We've ceded ground.
[00:14:32] You know, the reason we haven't got those people, particularly trans people, we haven't got those people in power.
[00:14:38] There is no trans politician in the UK openly.
[00:14:40] Yet.
[00:14:41] There isn't...
[00:14:42] Well, there's a moment in time.
[00:14:43] And yet it's been some years now we've had visibility in other countries.
[00:14:46] I mean, and actually a trans Congress person has been elected.
[00:14:51] So that's good.
[00:14:52] You know, Sarah McBride.
[00:14:53] Yeah, Sarah McBride.
[00:14:54] Amazing.
[00:14:55] So we've seen that in other countries and other countries, but not the UK yet.
[00:14:59] So we haven't got those voices.
[00:15:01] We've got a new government that isn't...
[00:15:03] That you would have hoped to have been progressive that isn't at the moment.
[00:15:07] No.
[00:15:07] So I think there's a mixture of both.
[00:15:09] We have to get more organised, I think.
[00:15:11] I think we're too disparate as a movement, really.
[00:15:15] With our wider LGBTQ plus community.
[00:15:22] But as a trans community, you know, as the work we do, I think we need to, you're right, get a bit more strategic about it.
[00:15:28] And, you know, pick those right battles, I guess.
[00:15:32] But yeah, I think part of the problem is we do spend...
[00:15:36] This might be...
[00:15:37] What I'm about to say might be a bit unfair, but I wonder if we spend a bit too much time looking inwards as well.
[00:15:45] And we don't spend enough time looking outwards.
[00:15:46] So there's a lot of...
[00:15:50] I'm going to be contentious for a moment.
[00:15:52] You know, I love our community and work very hard on us.
[00:15:54] That's all right.
[00:15:55] But there are a lot of people who are out there who are pushing themselves forward rather than the community.
[00:16:01] And that's fine.
[00:16:02] And in pushing themselves forward, they're represented and such like, but they're not pushing the community forward.
[00:16:07] And I don't think there's advocacy from top to bottom.
[00:16:11] And what I see, there's mostly...
[00:16:12] You know, I even see people who are, you know, in the banking community standing up and talking about their progress and what they're doing and who they are and what they're about.
[00:16:21] We're very rarely even talking about the community and what we're about and what's to celebrate.
[00:16:26] I mean, the arts, which is recognised now as a source of soft power and a source of real financial power in the UK and abroad.
[00:16:35] I mean, the arts is a bastion of LGBT people.
[00:16:40] And it's, you know, that's something that would be disappearing without us.
[00:16:44] And I don't think people are making the connection between people who are different and people who are extraordinarily successful.
[00:16:52] And, you know, it's time to have those icons.
[00:16:54] It's interesting, you know, there's still...
[00:16:56] I think there's still only one gay footballer, isn't there?
[00:16:58] And there's two gay people.
[00:17:01] But what was interesting about 2015 is that socially we were about.
[00:17:05] We were part of the zeitgeist.
[00:17:07] You know, we were on the fashion cover of the Vogue.
[00:17:08] We were in Big Brother.
[00:17:10] We were doing those sorts of things.
[00:17:12] And that's why the government responded to that because governments don't lead.
[00:17:16] Governments follow, you know, where the trend is and find your bed of it to look as if they're in front.
[00:17:20] Yeah.
[00:17:20] And that's all that needs to happen again.
[00:17:22] You know, what you need is, I don't know, I often talk to sort of C-suite execs about this whole issue.
[00:17:30] And they say, oh, we're going to stay out of the way because actually at the moment, you know, the rainbow market's not good for us.
[00:17:37] And I say, OK, but it will be.
[00:17:39] It'll turn back again.
[00:17:39] And they said, oh, yeah, the person, the first to move back in the corporate world, back into the rainbow market will, you know, secure a huge slice of action because so many people have run away from it.
[00:17:49] And it's just been.
[00:17:50] Some have.
[00:17:51] I don't know in this country.
[00:17:52] No, no, I'm talking more about the States.
[00:17:54] Yeah, I think, I think, I think you're right.
[00:17:56] But it has happened in this country, Jen.
[00:17:58] There's no doubt there has, you know, sponsorships of prides have been down.
[00:18:02] The corporate involvement in everything has been down.
[00:18:04] And there's been, but people recognise actually that the pink pound has not been performing.
[00:18:10] And, you know, and that's been a challenge because actually the pink community has been suffering and sort of hiding it, I think.
[00:18:17] I mean, you mentioned, you mentioned, you know.
[00:18:19] I've got no evidence for any of those views, by the way.
[00:18:21] No, no, I think you're absolutely right.
[00:18:22] And to agree that that, I guess, reflects what's been happening politically to a degree.
[00:18:27] But there is still plenty enough of that around there.
[00:18:30] I think if we're asking for corporate leaders to help us out, I mean, corporate leaders,
[00:18:34] as it's been shown in the US, are just interested in that, in more.
[00:18:38] Billionaires are just interested in becoming more billionaires.
[00:18:41] Of course.
[00:18:42] And that's the point.
[00:18:43] You know, even when you've got the Washington Post refusing, you know, decided not to nominate
[00:18:47] because they're looking at who gets elected and how can it work for us.
[00:18:51] Right.
[00:18:52] To a degree.
[00:18:52] That's the reality of late stage capitalism, I guess.
[00:18:55] Yeah.
[00:18:56] But, you know, I do think we can get more organised as a movement.
[00:18:59] You're absolutely right.
[00:19:00] I mean, just sort of my history in political activism, I guess.
[00:19:05] I've seen it on the left, you know, that I think there was times when the Socialist Party
[00:19:11] have hated the Socialist Worker Party more than they've hated the government.
[00:19:15] It's the old Monty Python, you know, that sketch on Life of Brian, you know, the popular
[00:19:21] front and all that.
[00:19:22] But there is an element of that.
[00:19:25] We haven't got that even level of organisation in the trans community, though.
[00:19:30] So it is often to individuals to go out and speak because we just haven't got any sort
[00:19:36] of embedded organisation.
[00:19:38] We've got to find a way of being more cohesive and organised.
[00:19:41] Well, there was.
[00:19:42] And then you have that to persuade.
[00:19:44] I mean, there used to be, and Press for Change used to be, you know, the people that really.
[00:19:49] Christine Burns and Stephen Whittle and such like.
[00:19:52] But I remember talking to Stephen Whittle a few years ago and he was sort of saying, he
[00:19:58] didn't say these words, but to paraphrase as I remember.
[00:20:01] So forgive me if this is totally true.
[00:20:03] But what he said was something along the lines of we've done our bit, we're exhausted.
[00:20:08] It's time for the, you know, it's time for the next generation to step up.
[00:20:10] It's time for the next people in the vanguard to come through.
[00:20:14] Because actually, you know, running very public action based campaigns is hard work.
[00:20:24] And you're trying to win.
[00:20:25] And you see, for me, what you just said there was actually the key.
[00:20:28] Billionaires are interested in being more billionaires.
[00:20:31] And that's all you have to figure out.
[00:20:32] Once you work that out, it's easy.
[00:20:33] So if there's a route to billionaireship from being trans or gay, that's the way you do it.
[00:20:38] I mean, I've never looked into this, but it'd be fascinating to have a look at some gay stocks
[00:20:43] and see how much they're working, you know, because actually it's all about money.
[00:20:47] And the good thing about money, they always talk, I don't know where, you know, you probably
[00:20:52] heard of Anthony Scaramucci.
[00:20:53] He always talks about the green economy, not the pink economy, because all that matters
[00:20:58] is money.
[00:20:58] And when you deal with corporates, it's very easy to know how to manipulate them.
[00:21:03] It's not about the cause.
[00:21:04] It's about the effect.
[00:21:06] And they'll back any cause if there's a significant effect for them.
[00:21:09] Of course it would.
[00:21:10] I don't think we're strategic enough about that.
[00:21:12] I mean, I listen to trans people talking about, you know, the scourge of corporates and,
[00:21:16] you know, the grasping capitalists.
[00:21:18] Well, yeah, you know, they are crap capitalists.
[00:21:20] They do the grasping.
[00:21:21] That's what they do.
[00:21:22] And as soon as you understand that, you can start to manipulate them and you can start
[00:21:25] to have something there.
[00:21:27] But standing on the side and throwing rocks.
[00:21:29] Well, you've got to get organised before that.
[00:21:30] Of course.
[00:21:31] The thing is, we're not organised in that way.
[00:21:33] Let's do it, Jeff.
[00:21:34] At the moment, we're losing ground.
[00:21:37] Each year, we lose losing ground.
[00:21:39] It gets more and more anti-trans sentiment.
[00:21:41] It's percolating through.
[00:21:43] You have the attitudes survey that shows that.
[00:21:46] I mean, the one thing I need to do is we need to be visible.
[00:21:49] We need to be.
[00:21:50] It's difficult for individuals.
[00:21:51] But all this stuff they show, when somebody knows a trans person, their attitudes are much
[00:21:56] more positive because they get to realise we're just human beings trying to live our lives.
[00:22:00] So we've got to find a way of being more visible, I think.
[00:22:03] And I think there are people.
[00:22:05] Shea at Transactual is very good.
[00:22:06] I know he'd organised a trip to a bunch of LGB charities to go and meet government ministers
[00:22:12] and such like.
[00:22:13] And I think that's where you have to start.
[00:22:15] But that's not a one-off thing.
[00:22:17] That has to be a coordinated set of strategies working forward.
[00:22:20] And that's the point, isn't it?
[00:22:22] And, you know, I don't know who's organising and working with unions across a more strategic
[00:22:27] level to be, you know.
[00:22:29] Well, we have, I mean, you know, we are.
[00:22:30] I mean, I'm sorry I'm biased in saying that.
[00:22:32] We have, you know, we have dedicated LGBT.
[00:22:37] We're the biggest union in the country.
[00:22:39] A million women members.
[00:22:41] And we have a strong, flourishing LGBT plus what we call self-organised group that is
[00:22:49] driving policy within our union.
[00:22:50] We have a very positive policy towards self-ID and so forth and trans rights in the workplace.
[00:22:56] So unions are at the front of that.
[00:22:58] Nearly all trade unions have really positive.
[00:23:01] There's a couple that maybe slightly not so, but there's consensus.
[00:23:05] You know, I've been part of, back in the past, a little part in moving that when I've spoken
[00:23:10] at big conferences.
[00:23:12] So there is part of, there are parts of society, but how much power do we have at the moment?
[00:23:17] I mean, we have a government.
[00:23:19] The idea now, we need to be lobbying this government because we've now got the ability to lobby.
[00:23:24] I couldn't really lobby with the conservative governments from our community, but we will
[00:23:29] be able to lobby.
[00:23:29] There's enough people that are positive and supportive and allies within the leading party
[00:23:36] in the UK for us to make some progress.
[00:23:39] I just feel for our colleagues over the water because I don't know where that power is.
[00:23:46] I mean, you know, the Republicans have completely swept the board in terms of, at a federal level.
[00:23:52] You know, so I guess, well, that's, you know, a lot of our civil rights.
[00:23:57] I mean, they've happened in America in the first place.
[00:23:59] I mean, I know they're coming from a different place, but, you know, I go back to Stonewall
[00:24:03] was America that sort of kick-started gay and lesbian liberation, didn't it?
[00:24:08] And then we had, obviously, what happened in the UK followed on from that.
[00:24:13] I've got a very cheery thought for me.
[00:24:16] Go on, let's have some positive.
[00:24:18] No, I wouldn't.
[00:24:19] I was being slightly sarcastic.
[00:24:21] And I don't know if I was being sarcastic.
[00:24:23] I don't know if that's the right word.
[00:24:24] I'll say what I heard and then you tell me.
[00:24:25] So I heard a very seasoned commentator say, talk about the fact that we're just, you know,
[00:24:32] we're reaping the benefits of a post-war society.
[00:24:36] And now we have to face up to the fact we're in a pre-war society.
[00:24:40] Oh, that's grim.
[00:24:43] That is a grim thought.
[00:24:47] It is grim rather than ironic.
[00:24:48] But the same thing is, and I think actually, you know, you've got to be realistic in life.
[00:24:54] You know, it's any form, you know, I've worked in corporates all my life
[00:24:56] and we spend a lot of time scenario planning and game planning and such like.
[00:25:00] And you have to be prepared for these things, you know, because the smart people are.
[00:25:05] And that's why smart people make money all the time, whatever.
[00:25:09] Because the situation for them is not whether it's up or down.
[00:25:12] What matters is that it's moving.
[00:25:14] And so, you know, that's what we've got to figure out.
[00:25:17] We've got to figure out how we're going to be useful and effective in a world that's going to have so much more turbulence in it.
[00:25:24] I mean, you know, the Middle East is massively turbulent.
[00:25:27] The politics going right across the Middle East, not just Israel, are staggering.
[00:25:32] I mean, the whole South Asian issues all over the place.
[00:25:35] We've got the sort of Croatia, Bosnia, who are starting off again.
[00:25:41] And we haven't even talked about what's his face in Russia, who's, you know, and, you know, who's sponsoring, you know,
[00:25:48] quite a lot of this right wing rhetoric that's going on around the place.
[00:25:51] And you have to exist in the world in which you are.
[00:25:54] And if you have to disappear for a while and we have to sort of stay low strategically
[00:25:58] so we can come back with actually some form of something to say, then that's a good thing.
[00:26:04] Well, I mean, I just don't agree with it.
[00:26:06] I'm not going to agree with going back into the shadows at any point.
[00:26:09] Well, I look at people like Extinction Rebellion, who have done a lot of activism and actually severely harmed their cause
[00:26:20] and actually have played into the government's plan to extend sentences for activism.
[00:26:25] And I think you have to be careful that you don't play into the hands of people who are playing a better, more strategic game.
[00:26:32] I don't know whether I fully agree with you.
[00:26:33] I mean, would doing nothing and being more quiet have made things?
[00:26:38] No, I didn't say do nothing.
[00:26:40] I said be less visible whilst you are busy.
[00:26:43] I don't.
[00:26:44] I must admit, I'm not sure.
[00:26:46] I can see the argument that it hasn't persuaded people, maybe, that they need to persuade.
[00:26:52] But otherwise, you know, what else is being won without sometimes civil, you know,
[00:27:01] go back to Stonewall.
[00:27:02] They had to have a riot with the police to start a riot.
[00:27:05] Things happening.
[00:27:06] Where I would disagree with you is we have to anyway.
[00:27:09] I think we need to be visible.
[00:27:10] And I know it's difficult for individuals.
[00:27:12] I'm not talking about.
[00:27:13] Because if we stop being visible, then they will, you know, we will be good.
[00:27:17] We at least have got to be visible because when we are visible, in the main, we get positive.
[00:27:23] So I can tell by your reaction.
[00:27:25] I must have said something that didn't come out the way I meant it.
[00:27:29] I'm not talking about us disappearing from society.
[00:27:31] I'm talking about the way we are activists.
[00:27:34] I'm talking about being strategic in the way that we apply the leaders of power.
[00:27:40] I mean, you have said, and it's always influenced my view, that just existing as a form of activism,
[00:27:46] just walking around in public is a form of activism.
[00:27:49] Yeah.
[00:27:49] And I think that's fine.
[00:27:50] And I think we can all have, you know, we can live our lives quietly.
[00:27:54] And that's a form of activism.
[00:27:55] And there's nothing to matter with that.
[00:27:56] But I think strategically, when we're thinking about organising as a community,
[00:28:00] actually just keeping our cards closer to our chests and to, that's what I mean, really,
[00:28:04] in terms of how we're going to operate, how we're going to think in the real world
[00:28:07] and how we're going to operate to get power back.
[00:28:10] Because without power, we're lost.
[00:28:12] I think you have to, I agree.
[00:28:13] Well, let's, in a sense, there is agreement there.
[00:28:16] I think we have to be more strategic.
[00:28:18] We have to be more thoughtful about how we do persuade.
[00:28:22] It's a, you know, ultimately, it's about persuasion for those in power and forming allies.
[00:28:28] That is all strategic.
[00:28:30] And fighting the battles when we need to.
[00:28:32] I think we should call out transphobia where it's out there.
[00:28:35] And, you know, we shouldn't be scared of calling that out.
[00:28:37] We don't want it to be normalised.
[00:28:40] Yeah, we don't want to be victims.
[00:28:41] No, but we don't want, you know, transphobia gets normalised under the, I mean, it already has been under the title of gender critical,
[00:28:50] which to my mind will always be transphobia in my mind.
[00:28:54] You know, you can call it gender critical.
[00:28:56] You can change the language.
[00:28:58] Well, that's what it is.
[00:28:59] That's a good shout.
[00:29:00] You know, so I think we can do both.
[00:29:03] So maybe I'm easily triggered when it's in debate sometimes.
[00:29:10] But I agree with you.
[00:29:11] I think that's where we've got to be.
[00:29:13] But how we do that, I don't know, Jill, because I say we're just not organised.
[00:29:18] We're all just scrabbling.
[00:29:20] And there's, you know, charities and, you know, local groups and individuals.
[00:29:24] There seems to be no cohesiveness.
[00:29:28] So maybe it's something we can start to do and look how we actually join up and become strong with that community.
[00:29:36] Yeah.
[00:29:36] We need a central rallying point.
[00:29:38] And the central rallying point, if you're a corporation or you're a movement, is to have people somewhere working on a strategy and a plan.
[00:29:46] Yeah.
[00:29:47] And I don't, and that's the bit that's missing.
[00:29:48] I think you get followers when there is a sense of vision and sense of forward momentum.
[00:29:53] Now, whether that forward momentum is noisy or quiet doesn't matter.
[00:29:56] But that it's the fact that there is forward momentum.
[00:30:00] And I think what we have is an astonishingly talented and creative community.
[00:30:05] Oh, gosh.
[00:30:06] But we're often in our tiny furrows, ploughing away, all scrabbling around looking for the next bit of funding and not thinking more cleverly about that.
[00:30:16] And I suppose that's what I'm saying.
[00:30:17] And we know this, Jim.
[00:30:19] We're involved in more than one charity ourselves.
[00:30:21] And you can get lost in the day-to-day without being able to stand back and think, actually, there's probably something bigger than this going on that we need to sort of tap into sometimes.
[00:30:31] Yeah.
[00:30:32] No, I think you're right.
[00:30:33] And that's why there's hope.
[00:30:34] And there's always hope.
[00:30:35] And I'd follow you as our leader, Jill, if we could elect you.
[00:30:39] I'd follow you.
[00:30:40] I knew you'd send me all the barricades.
[00:30:41] A barricade?
[00:30:42] Because I'd absorb all the fire.
[00:30:47] That's the burden of leadership, Jill.
[00:30:49] The burden of leadership, yes.
[00:30:50] It's to be filled full of lead.
[00:30:54] No, no.
[00:30:55] But I'm genuine about this.
[00:30:57] I think, actually, being a trans elder sometimes, as someone fondly called me the other day, which I was quite chuffed about in a funny sort of way.
[00:31:03] It's the first time I've ever seen a benefit to feeling really old and being called a trans elder.
[00:31:08] But I think what the benefit of being a trans elder is that sometimes you don't care as much in terms of the slings and arrows that are thrown at you.
[00:31:15] Yeah, life does.
[00:31:17] I mean, you know, it's difficult, isn't it?
[00:31:19] Life can be different at different stages.
[00:31:20] I'm at a different stage than I was when I just transitioned.
[00:31:24] So I can sort of get that.
[00:31:27] But, yeah, yeah.
[00:31:28] I mean, hopefully we can find hope.
[00:31:33] I mean, I'm just feeling for what it would be like to be in certain parts of America at the moment.
[00:31:38] And, you know, I've heard of people in our community saying they don't want to go on holiday in America or certain parts of it at the moment.
[00:31:45] They wouldn't go to Florida, for instance, maybe as a trans person.
[00:31:49] I mean, that's heartbreaking to hear because that wasn't the case 10 years ago.
[00:31:54] It really wasn't.
[00:31:55] And, you know, I think that's really – I was reading about people who've put off the transition.
[00:32:02] They're putting off the transition for the moment, which is so heartbreaking because we know how positive it is if people are able to transition.
[00:32:09] And you've got people in the States that are thinking, well, is it the right thing for me to do at the moment?
[00:32:15] And I just think that's heartbreaking.
[00:32:16] And sometimes you do have to think these things.
[00:32:17] And sometimes you have to look at the zeitgeist.
[00:32:19] And sometimes you have to look at, you know, the swing of change.
[00:32:22] And if it's against you, sometimes you have to be a bit more careful and forthright.
[00:32:26] I mean, people find a way.
[00:32:27] I don't –
[00:32:28] Because it's not like we're not trans.
[00:32:29] The thing is, we just – I had a fascinating conversation yesterday with two older trans women.
[00:32:37] I mean, all we needed, Jen, was a cauldron.
[00:32:39] They can't be older than us, Jill.
[00:32:41] No, they're not older.
[00:32:42] Well, no, they weren't.
[00:32:43] But we had a cauldron and we were chatting away and we were chucking in the frogs and the boils and such,
[00:32:47] like having a good old banter and Barney about all this.
[00:32:50] And I've started saying this and I've completely forgotten what I was going to say because that's one of the joys of being a trans out there.
[00:32:57] As you can jabber on to the point where you've forgotten what you're going to say.
[00:33:01] It'll come back to me.
[00:33:03] No, but I mean, you know, you're right.
[00:33:05] I think you're right in the fact, of course, people have got to make their own decisions.
[00:33:09] And we're all of us who transitioned up have had to weigh up the pros and cons.
[00:33:13] I think, you know, all of us have had to think about what's it like at the moment.
[00:33:18] You know, I did.
[00:33:18] I mean, I transitioned in 2005.
[00:33:21] There's no way I would have transitioned seven or eight years earlier.
[00:33:26] But also, I think it's harder now.
[00:33:28] It's harder now than it was in 2005.
[00:33:30] That seems weird.
[00:33:31] It should be.
[00:33:31] But it is.
[00:33:32] You know, there's more awareness, but it's a tougher atmosphere, I think.
[00:33:36] So I can understand that.
[00:33:37] It breaks my heart, though, because I know how positive it was for me and how positive it is.
[00:33:43] It's for all the studies show, and you just want anybody in our community that is able to be able to live authentically.
[00:33:51] And when you're hearing that people are having to put that off because of what's happening in the political background,
[00:33:58] that's heartbreaking to me because every one of those people is hurting me.
[00:34:03] Yeah.
[00:34:04] But, you know, I think.
[00:34:05] And actually, that's a really interesting point you're making there because, of course, this is the week where,
[00:34:11] or next week is the week with Trans Day of Remembrance in.
[00:34:14] And I think it's never more poignant than getting together either in a local trans group or,
[00:34:21] and again, you know, it's tricky in America, but we have our own online version of this.
[00:34:26] And, you know, there are lots of online, lots of physical, lots of public demonstrations or celebrations or ceremonies to sort of,
[00:34:35] you know, to mark the occasion.
[00:34:37] I think it's really important that we come together and celebrate or, you know, celebrate the lives of people who've, you know, lost their lives.
[00:34:45] But I think it's also a sign of hope as well because it's a point where the community comes together.
[00:34:50] And it shows we can come together.
[00:34:52] It is.
[00:34:53] I can't remember who founded it.
[00:34:54] It was founded in, it was founded in the States.
[00:34:57] Was it?
[00:34:58] Yeah.
[00:34:59] I thought that was Trans Day of Remembrance.
[00:35:01] That's what I'm talking about.
[00:35:02] Are you talking about Trans Week and Visibility?
[00:35:03] No, I'm talking about, no, I am talking about Trans Day of Remembrance.
[00:35:06] Yeah, which I think it's Wednesday.
[00:35:08] Yes, it is.
[00:35:08] I think it's Wednesday.
[00:35:09] It's the 20th month and it was founded because it's true.
[00:35:13] We haven't seen it necessarily in this country, but in America, the levels of violence against particularly black trans women.
[00:35:19] I think one year there was, there's double figures murders of trans women.
[00:35:24] So they've had high level, you know, there's been levels of violence against trans people.
[00:35:30] And that's what this came together.
[00:35:31] And I think it's been widened now to those that we've lost due to discrimination and hate, you know, in the wider sense.
[00:35:39] And I'm supposed to be writing a piece on it for our trust.
[00:35:42] But I find it difficult to write about, really.
[00:35:44] Gwendolyn Ann Smith.
[00:35:46] That's the person, yes.
[00:35:48] Yeah.
[00:35:48] Yeah.
[00:35:49] And it's definitely taken hold because it's very interesting because I think you think about other communities and protected characteristics and groups.
[00:35:59] The trans day of remembrance is almost sort of unique to the trans community.
[00:36:04] I can't think of anything that is quite like that.
[00:36:07] I might be missing something here.
[00:36:09] I mean, we have celebrated weeks and months, but this is one day to think about people we've lost.
[00:36:13] And, you know, and we do lose people from the community and like any marginalized community.
[00:36:20] And it hits the community when we lose people, you know.
[00:36:24] Yeah.
[00:36:25] I remember when I first found the community online in a chat room and ever so often, this is the late 90s, somebody would disappear from the chat room and the word would get back that they'd taken their lives.
[00:36:38] And they'd make that way out.
[00:36:40] And it was heartbreaking to see that.
[00:36:43] It's the first time I really came across the idea of, yeah, I came across a suicide, really, in terms of understanding of it.
[00:36:50] You know, that there were people in our community that just found it so difficult because they weren't able to be who they were.
[00:36:56] And it was so painful.
[00:36:59] And, you know, so I think it's a time to remember that.
[00:37:03] I think now a lot of us think about Brianna Jai, don't we?
[00:37:08] Yes, that was last year.
[00:37:10] The girl, yeah, that was murdered.
[00:37:12] And one of the murderers had made transphobic comments and it was referenced.
[00:37:17] It's difficult to know whether it was solely targeted on her because she was trans.
[00:37:22] But it definitely was an aspect of it.
[00:37:24] And it was really shocking.
[00:37:27] And, you know, I always think I was when I write a piece, I was going to talk about three people because I think there's these interesting sort of three ways that we lose people.
[00:37:37] So we lost Brianna Jai due to violence.
[00:37:39] And there's I always mentioned Lucy Meadows, who was a schoolteacher that was transitioning.
[00:37:46] That was how this must be.
[00:37:48] This is quite a while ago now, though.
[00:37:50] It would have been about maybe a dozen years ago.
[00:37:53] It was hounded in the press.
[00:37:55] I think Richard Littlejohn hounded her as a trans teacher and took her life.
[00:38:01] And the coroner referenced the effect that the press had had on bullying Lucy.
[00:38:08] And then I think Alice Lippman, we lost a couple of years ago, who the coroner referenced the fact that she'd been on a waiting list so long to get, you know, support from a gender clinic.
[00:38:20] And I think that actually the coroner wrote to all the gender clinics saying, you know, you need to take this seriously.
[00:38:25] This is an aspect of why we're losing people.
[00:38:27] And I think that's somewhat unique maybe to our community in that aspect of when we lose people and how it lands on the community.
[00:38:37] Because we all do feel it.
[00:38:40] Because we've been there.
[00:38:42] However, we always like to finish on a positive note.
[00:38:45] And what's interesting about TDOR is that it's been expanded into Transgender Awareness Week.
[00:38:52] And this has become a thing as well.
[00:38:55] And actually, I was speaking at a university on whichever day it was.
[00:39:02] I don't know what day it is today.
[00:39:04] That's sad, isn't it?
[00:39:05] Yesterday.
[00:39:05] I was talking.
[00:39:06] Yeah, yesterday.
[00:39:06] That's when I was.
[00:39:08] All my troubles seem so far away.
[00:39:10] But anyway.
[00:39:11] And what a massive outpouring of allyship.
[00:39:15] People saying we want to help.
[00:39:17] People saying, you know, genuinely when you talk to them about the reality of life, saying this is scandalous, it's disgusting.
[00:39:25] People, you know, talking about, you know, what trans people are really about, which is just to have a normal life.
[00:39:30] It's just.
[00:39:31] And we did that thing where initially there was a person who was there against their will.
[00:39:35] And it had been a three-line way to apply.
[00:39:38] And they came up to it at the end and said it was really interesting conversation.
[00:39:42] They hadn't understood what was actually going on.
[00:39:47] They hadn't understood much about the subject.
[00:39:49] They just had a general sort of bit of antip-ness because I can't think of the word.
[00:40:01] These hormones are killing me today.
[00:40:03] But they'd been turned off our community.
[00:40:07] But, you know, I'm going to get into my favourite subject of the DEI community.
[00:40:11] But they had been actually sort of slightly weaponised by being forced to wear pronoun badges.
[00:40:18] And I know this is a subject we're going to pick up on another day.
[00:40:22] But I do think it's something that we need to talk about.
[00:40:24] Because I would never support people being forced to wear pronouns.
[00:40:26] I think that's the wrong approach.
[00:40:28] I know.
[00:40:28] I've always said that.
[00:40:29] I think that's the point.
[00:40:30] No, but we need to have a fight about it just because it's been a while since we had a fight.
[00:40:34] Because I'll tell you what I did just quickly because that relates to now.
[00:40:37] I think that, and this might be an odd take.
[00:40:40] I see the same.
[00:40:41] You know what?
[00:40:41] When it's time for people to wear poppets.
[00:40:44] And you'll absolutely see nobody on the table.
[00:40:46] Even people who aren't from the UK and having to wear poppets.
[00:40:49] Yes.
[00:40:50] And if everybody has to do something, then it starts to lose meaning.
[00:40:54] Because the point of doing it, so the point of wearing a pro badge is to express your allureship and so forth.
[00:40:59] So mandating it is silly.
[00:41:01] I don't come across many places that do that.
[00:41:04] Oh, they do.
[00:41:05] They are.
[00:41:06] I think this is part of the problem.
[00:41:07] And I think this is the sense.
[00:41:09] You get the sense.
[00:41:10] You get the sense in the stage.
[00:41:11] The pushback against what they call the woke agenda.
[00:41:14] And this is part of it.
[00:41:15] It's this idea that D&I hasn't become about equal opportunities.
[00:41:21] It's become about factions, tick boxes.
[00:41:23] But anyway, I'm going to get off my box and I'm going to go back to Trans Awareness Week and say it was really lovely to see a group of,
[00:41:31] and as we always talk about this, younger students.
[00:41:34] I mean, there were students that were between 18 and 30 because there were postgrads there as well.
[00:41:38] And it was lovely to see that community just completely, I was going to say disinterested in the fact we're trans, but actually just normalised in the fact.
[00:41:49] I mean, they looked at me and they looked at me and you could tell it was a strange sense of pity in their eyes because I was just, as they said, very, very old.
[00:41:59] And that was actually quite lovely to be sitting there being different because I was old rather than because I was trans.
[00:42:04] And I think that's a lovely, that was a lovely place to be in.
[00:42:08] Well, I'm glad it was really positive.
[00:42:10] But you're right.
[00:42:10] I mean, there's loads of places you go.
[00:42:12] And as I say, you know, despite all my sort of doom and gloom, I've still never received anything but love when I step out my front door on my street.
[00:42:21] So, you know, there is a weird dissonance still, I think, in the reality of our lived lives and what we read.
[00:42:30] But yeah, I'm glad that went well for you, Jill.
[00:42:33] And come and join our TDOR celebration on Friday, Wednesday if you want to.
[00:42:38] So anyway, for everybody in the world, have a lovely week.
[00:42:42] Enjoy TDOR.
[00:42:43] Hopefully it's an uplifting experience as well as a time of sadness.
[00:42:48] And I'll see you next week.
[00:42:50] You take care.
[00:42:51] See you all next week.
[00:42:52] Bye.
[00:42:52] Bye.
[00:42:55] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox.
[00:42:58] It's been a joy to have you with us.
[00:43:00] If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk.
[00:43:07] And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.
[00:43:11] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes.
[00:43:15] Which one have you chosen?
[00:43:16] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling
[00:43:22] to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK.
[00:43:27] An amazing charity doing some amazing work.
[00:43:29] Really important.
[00:43:30] So, pleased if you can give.
[00:43:33] Great.
[00:43:33] And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.
[00:43:38] But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help
[00:43:42] the people who help us.
[00:43:44] Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments,
[00:43:49] applause, or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to gillian at transvox.co.uk.
[00:43:57] Until the next time, goodbye.
[00:43:59] Bye-bye.