This week, Gillian and Jenny discuss the changes in social media platforms, particularly at Meta, and their potential impact on free speech and censorship. They also explored the challenges faced by the trans community on these platforms and the potential solutions, such as moderated Facebook groups and other platforms like Discord.
Subjects include:
- Meta's Changes and Free Speech Concerns
- Digital Security Act's Impact on Speech
- Trans Community Challenges on Social Media
- Social Media's Impact on Community
- Emotional Reflections and Future Planning
You can submit questions to gillian@transvox.co.uk
#transgender, #gendergp, #transgenderhealth
[00:00:07] Hi and welcome back to Transvox and welcome back resplendent in interestingly a hazard high-vis vest and a traffic cone on your head. It's Jenny, how are you?
[00:00:22] I'm very well Jill, you can never be too careful you know.
[00:00:26] I can see that.
[00:00:27] I'm not going to be a trip hazard to anybody.
[00:00:32] And in these foggy conditions, something landing on you would be a tragedy.
[00:00:37] Yes indeed.
[00:00:39] Anyway, it's going to be a tricky subject this week because we're in the middle of a silly season in the States
[00:00:44] and I thought it would be worth just spending a little bit of time talking about the changes which are going on in social media
[00:00:51] and then what are possible approaches, implications for a soul
[00:00:54] and then what else that might lead to and some other conversations around it.
[00:00:59] So we've done social media many times but I think it's worth talking a little bit about the changes.
[00:01:04] Meta, which of course is Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, there's a heck of a lot of...
[00:01:12] And WhatsApp as well.
[00:01:13] Yeah, I mean the Meta empire is... well it's Meta isn't it?
[00:01:19] And 3D glasses and lots of other things that don't work so well.
[00:01:22] Yes, yeah.
[00:01:23] So first of all, I mean are you all over what's going on?
[00:01:28] Well I think so.
[00:01:29] I mean I certainly have been listening to the news for the last couple of days and I understand...
[00:01:34] Let's call them Facebook for a short hand.
[00:01:36] The Meta Facebook are stopping doing so much fact checking I think around.
[00:01:41] Yeah, that's it.
[00:01:42] And I certainly have an interview with somebody from there.
[00:01:46] I think Nick Clegg has stood down.
[00:01:48] You know, I remember Nick Clegg from British politics was some role in there and he stepped down
[00:01:54] because he wanted somebody that was a bit closer to Trump.
[00:01:57] And I think they were talking...
[00:01:59] I certainly was a spokesperson talking saying that they were doubling down on the free speech
[00:02:04] and they were welcoming the fact that Trump was more in favour of freedom of speech or expression.
[00:02:12] Which sounds great but it is for our community can be a bit of a warning sign because, you know,
[00:02:19] if you look what happened in Twitter.
[00:02:20] So, yeah, that has to be concerning if another part of social media is going to, you know,
[00:02:27] start to look more like Twitter is looking at the moment.
[00:02:31] Yeah.
[00:02:31] And I think you're right because what we're doing there moving fact check is leaving it for the power of the group
[00:02:36] to moderate decide and we know what happens on X which is that's really down to what Elon Musk thinks.
[00:02:43] And I think there'll be some things...
[00:02:45] And at the moment it's only in the US because, of course, we've got quite strong laws
[00:02:52] and we've got the Digital Security Act going in Europe, which, of course, a lot of this is aimed at.
[00:02:57] So the Americans don't like this idea that, as they say, that we're censoring free speech,
[00:03:03] which, of course, is only free speech as it applies to them.
[00:03:06] And whereas, of course, it's not. It's really about harms.
[00:03:09] So...
[00:03:09] So...
[00:03:10] It's not going.
[00:03:10] Go on.
[00:03:11] So I was going to stick because we're not now part of the EU.
[00:03:15] We are still part of the EU.
[00:03:17] And I don't think laws have necessarily changed.
[00:03:20] Because I think you're right about the EU will have a view on this,
[00:03:25] but whether we get included in that or whether the UK is, I don't know,
[00:03:30] likely to take a slightly different path.
[00:03:31] Well, we could.
[00:03:33] But we already have more regulation and censorship.
[00:03:37] We have more regulation and...
[00:03:39] Yes.
[00:03:41] ...around this whole...
[00:03:42] Because we do have things like laws against anti-terror, prevent anti-extremism laws.
[00:03:48] Hate speech is not allowed.
[00:03:49] Hate speech?
[00:03:49] Yeah.
[00:03:50] We've got freedom of expression, not freedom of speech,
[00:03:53] which I think is an important distinction.
[00:03:58] And, you know, you saw that about people who got...
[00:04:00] who have been sent to prison for things they did during the riots we had,
[00:04:05] you know, a couple of months ago where, you know,
[00:04:07] they were encouraging people to riot and attack buildings with immigrants.
[00:04:12] And, you know, in my view, rightly held accountable for that.
[00:04:15] Yeah.
[00:04:16] And I think the first group that people are concerned about in the States,
[00:04:20] which again is not here, but we'll discuss the risks to the UK in a minute.
[00:04:24] Yeah, yeah.
[00:04:25] But the first group is youngsters because actually the ability...
[00:04:28] So because it's self-policed, so things like child porn, child exploitation,
[00:04:34] discussing difficult subjects in front of younger people is going to be now unregulated.
[00:04:39] I mean, there are still harmful terms around what they call high severity violations,
[00:04:46] which have automatic systems to trigger.
[00:04:49] So things like eating disorders, child safety and such like.
[00:04:55] But, you know, what they've actually done is also said,
[00:04:58] well, actually you can now discriminate on the grounds of gender.
[00:05:01] So basically you can describe women as anything you like.
[00:05:03] You can link transgenderism to mental health things.
[00:05:09] So you can call us weird.
[00:05:11] So what they've done is they've removed the ability to have courteous language
[00:05:17] and they've effectively left it to the mob to decide what's okay
[00:05:22] in terms of what we say to women and trans people.
[00:05:24] And it's really interesting that, of course, because it's gender based,
[00:05:27] that cis women have fallen into this bucket as well.
[00:05:30] And it makes you wonder whether, as I've said for a number of years now,
[00:05:34] whether they attack us because they want to actually get a cisgender population,
[00:05:38] cis women population or cisgender women are getting caught up in the legislation against us.
[00:05:43] But the net effect is that our rights are going to be seriously curtailed and potentially
[00:05:49] going to be a lot more, potentially almost online harms and online violence,
[00:05:57] because actually people are going to be able to say whatever they want without recourse,
[00:06:01] without the ability to report it and without the ability to defend yourself.
[00:06:04] Because basically, if it's gender based, you can say what you want.
[00:06:08] So call each other whatever you fancy.
[00:06:10] You know, absolutely.
[00:06:11] And if I think about it, think some of the examples.
[00:06:14] I remember when...
[00:06:16] Oh, what's his name that wrote Father Ted?
[00:06:19] The famous transphobe that wrote Father Ted.
[00:06:21] Oh, yeah, I can't remember his name.
[00:06:23] He got visited by the police for some of the stuff he posted.
[00:06:27] I can't see that happening now.
[00:06:28] And he's now been loud back on Twitter.
[00:06:30] He was basically kicked off Twitter.
[00:06:32] What's his name?
[00:06:32] He'll come to me.
[00:06:33] Yeah, I will.
[00:06:34] You know, he's a horrendous person in some horrendous way.
[00:06:39] So you saw that and that these people have now been loud back on social media.
[00:06:43] Yeah.
[00:06:43] People like him.
[00:06:46] Graham Linehan.
[00:06:47] Graham Linehan.
[00:06:48] Yeah.
[00:06:48] Yeah.
[00:06:49] Absolutely abhorrent behavior, but was now been loud back into those circles.
[00:06:55] Right.
[00:06:55] And so after Elon Musk.
[00:06:57] So you're going to start to see, I think, more of that.
[00:07:00] And I think what I find difficult is.
[00:07:06] And you can say, well, let's leave Twitter.
[00:07:08] Lots of us have really stopped engaging with Twitter.
[00:07:11] We're still technically on it because the Twitter is horrible.
[00:07:14] If you try and get any wider discourse, it is just become horrible.
[00:07:18] And I, I've in the past have suffered significantly from online attacks on Twitter that wouldn't be deemed unlawful, but were just horrible that really, you know, nearly broke me when I was on television.
[00:07:30] I've talked about it before.
[00:07:31] Yes.
[00:07:32] So I, I've subject that.
[00:07:33] So I've subject that pile on.
[00:07:35] And, um, it was some time ago.
[00:07:38] The thing is when they drive us away from these platforms, which they have to many trans people in terms of, in terms of Twitter.
[00:07:48] That's a real loss to us in our community.
[00:07:50] I feel the loss of not having a platform.
[00:07:53] So I live on my own, you know, we're a disparate community.
[00:07:55] Many of us can be lonely.
[00:07:57] Social media can be a real help to communities like ours.
[00:08:00] I always go back to saying, if it wasn't for, you know, the ability to find a community online, I wouldn't be where I was today.
[00:08:06] Right.
[00:08:07] I found a community online through chat rooms was preceding social media.
[00:08:11] And we're being forced out of that space.
[00:08:13] And that is not akin to forcing us out of the towns where to forcing us out of civil society, if you want to call it that.
[00:08:21] So although it's, it's, it's that thing when people often say, well, I just don't do social media.
[00:08:25] And that's fine for lots of people.
[00:08:27] But for lots, lots of us, it's where we find a community.
[00:08:30] And then you have to start to look elsewhere.
[00:08:32] I've gone on to Blue Sky, which people have gone on to, but it's not at the moment, a number of traffic that's there.
[00:08:40] It might do. It might grow.
[00:08:42] Should do.
[00:08:42] And I think if Facebook went the same way for a lot of people, I think that that's really damaging us as a community.
[00:08:50] It's easy to say, forget about social media.
[00:08:54] But why should we not be able to be part of that without being hurt and damaged?
[00:08:59] And it strikes me that I think what it'll drive is the rise of more Facebook groups, because I think Facebook groups, you know, are moderated by people.
[00:09:09] Yes.
[00:09:10] Within the community.
[00:09:11] So basically, if someone comes in, you can throw them out.
[00:09:13] And, and you don't have to have a reason anymore, because actually, whilst they can come in and sell horrible stuff, you can get rid because you can get rid.
[00:09:20] And I think we'll probably see the rise of more and more of these group enterprises and less and less people in this or broad chat.
[00:09:27] And, and I think, you know, a lot of people have talked to me about signal.
[00:09:31] I mean, telegrams are a tricky sort of one, but signal and, and discord.
[00:09:35] And I know there's a lot of people who swear by discord.
[00:09:39] And it's something I'm a bit behind, but I know it's, it's particularly useful for the gaming community, but there's lots of groups and chat rooms.
[00:09:47] Yeah, you get communities developed in their own communities.
[00:09:49] So, so I suppose, and it is part of social media where, where I'm finding connections at the moment is on Twitch.
[00:09:57] So there are Twitch streamers with some of them with big followings that have a community that is very positive towards trans people.
[00:10:04] I mean, the right sort of politics as well.
[00:10:06] Not, there's plenty of it that isn't.
[00:10:08] There's plenty of misogyny.
[00:10:10] There's plenty of places on, but you can find a community.
[00:10:13] Obviously, you know, I watch a particular stream and it is very trans positive, even though the stream isn't trans.
[00:10:18] And you find that.
[00:10:20] So finding, you can find communities in other ways, but it's much more difficult to define that where you can feel part of something.
[00:10:29] And I, and I genuinely miss Twitter.
[00:10:31] I used to, I used to have, used to be such a positive thing for me.
[00:10:35] I would post a, I'd post a lot and I'd get responses and, you know, trans Twitter, you know, the community.
[00:10:42] It was on there was great if I was having a tough time, I get lots of support coming back, but it's become a place where we don't feel safe.
[00:10:50] And so, I mean, the big debate seems to be, should you boycott these things?
[00:10:54] Because if you boycott them enough, people leave advertisers notice, and then they start to move away.
[00:11:00] But I mean, as we famously say, 0.6% of the population trans, you know, maybe over a percent, 2%, you know, the wider community.
[00:11:08] I mean, would anybody notice?
[00:11:10] I mean, I'm actually, I've actually made the decision to stay on meta because actually it's too useful.
[00:11:16] And also, you know, I run a business and it's, I need to be able to publicize things.
[00:11:20] I don't think boycotting is the answer.
[00:11:23] No.
[00:11:23] Because one, some of us need those things, right?
[00:11:27] Yeah.
[00:11:27] It's like saying you boycott the town square.
[00:11:29] If that's what they talk about Twitter being the town square where people now debate, we're being pushed and hounded out of this.
[00:11:37] That's like saying...
[00:11:37] And create your own groups.
[00:11:38] You can create your own Facebook group for yourself.
[00:11:40] You can create your own groups, but that's not...
[00:11:41] What's that group?
[00:11:42] It is a different thing.
[00:11:44] Yeah.
[00:11:44] To be able to talk to people outside of a closed group.
[00:11:48] I got a...
[00:11:49] I mean, I did get a lot from Twitter.
[00:11:50] I can't say any other way, even though, even after the fact I had a terrible experience on it, I still got a lot positive from it.
[00:11:57] It helped me connect, it helped me organize and it helps campaigning and all sorts, right?
[00:12:03] It was really good in that.
[00:12:04] I feel that we've been forced out of that since Elon Musk took over and, you know, we know how he particularly hates trans people.
[00:12:12] He's made that very clear.
[00:12:14] And we have been targeted on that, no doubt about that.
[00:12:17] And, you know, people have been allowed to...
[00:12:19] So I feel we've been pushed out of there.
[00:12:21] And you're right about...
[00:12:23] It's up to individuals about whether they boycott it.
[00:12:25] I don't engage with it because I don't feel safe engaging it anymore.
[00:12:28] I want you to a real sad state of affairs.
[00:12:31] And I'm trying to find other communities.
[00:12:35] Because I just worry about those people for those...
[00:12:38] For instance, those trans people that are just starting to come to terms with their gender identity or trying to reach out.
[00:12:44] Scary when you first try and find a community.
[00:12:47] The first time I connected with somebody was a bit scary.
[00:12:50] Maybe people are more used to it now because this was the late nineties.
[00:12:53] But I worry about that because these doors are being closed on us.
[00:12:56] These doors are open to other people who are not different.
[00:13:01] Who, you know, who have privilege across the board who are not going to get hounded off.
[00:13:06] I mean, there's terrible discourse for lots of people.
[00:13:08] I'm not saying we're different in terms of misogyny and racism and so forth, you know.
[00:13:14] But I'm speaking for being part of that community and how it's affected me.
[00:13:19] And I am the less for being not engaged on Twitter.
[00:13:25] I used to be on Facebook.
[00:13:29] And I've sort of drifted away from that.
[00:13:31] Maybe I engage with Facebook or find something else.
[00:13:35] But yeah, I mean, it is such...
[00:13:39] This meta turn towards more Trumpian free speech is...
[00:13:45] I mean, they were even sort of apologising for censoring some anti-vaccination or anti-COVID misinformation.
[00:13:53] Well, that sort of stuff costs lives, you know.
[00:13:57] COVID disinformation costs lives.
[00:13:59] What are we at?
[00:14:00] The goose that lays the golden egg will be eventually eradicated.
[00:14:06] I read a very interesting...
[00:14:07] Anyway, let's not...
[00:14:08] I'll go there because I got myself distracted into South Africa and apartheid and how some of these key right-wingers are from the same place.
[00:14:15] But one of the things I was thinking about is at the moment it doesn't affect UK Europe.
[00:14:19] But I think...
[00:14:21] I was reading something in The Guardian that was saying something along the lines of that what Trump will start doing is we'll start putting these requirements into trading requirements with the US.
[00:14:31] So if you want to trade the US, you'll have to follow these digital safety rules and such like.
[00:14:36] And I think that's going to be the thing.
[00:14:38] And, you know, what we're seeing coming out of America is quite bizarre, aren't we?
[00:14:42] We're seeing either it's massive distraction or it's massive, you know, messing about.
[00:14:46] But, you know, let's take over Canada and Greenland and Mexico.
[00:14:49] There's none of the conspiracy stuff that's been spread.
[00:14:51] Yeah, about...
[00:14:52] There's been something about fog.
[00:14:54] I mean, people are...
[00:14:55] Yeah.
[00:14:55] There's some crazy stuff on there.
[00:14:57] But you say it won't affect...
[00:14:58] Yeah, there's stuff in New Jersey.
[00:15:00] But you say it won't affect here.
[00:15:02] Twitter has.
[00:15:03] Yeah, we will.
[00:15:03] Twitter hasn't been held back by Europe.
[00:15:06] Twitter has just become allowed to be...
[00:15:08] Yeah.
[00:15:10] ...what it is.
[00:15:11] So I fail to see why Meta and other parts can't become like that if Twitter is able to in this country, despite some of the laws we have.
[00:15:22] But I think we'll see...
[00:15:24] I think we'll see rivals.
[00:15:25] I think we'll see rivals being set up because we have time in the UK.
[00:15:29] So we don't have to rush.
[00:15:30] We don't have to, you know...
[00:15:31] And I think one of the things to say to people in the UK and Europe is we don't have to leap today and other parts of the world as well other than the US.
[00:15:38] We have to watch what happens in the US.
[00:15:40] And, you know, let's not hide behind the sofa with our hands over our eyes.
[00:15:43] Let's be cognizant of what's going on.
[00:15:45] This might happen.
[00:15:46] How do we find better communities?
[00:15:48] How do we find other ways to deal with people, to reach out to people now?
[00:15:52] And, you know, there are lots of trans groups.
[00:15:54] There are lots of trans methods.
[00:15:55] There's lots of stuff out there and support out there.
[00:15:58] And I think it's making sure that you're hooked into places now in case...
[00:16:03] You've always got to think to yourself, if Facebook went down next week, how would you cope?
[00:16:08] And so it's the same sort of...
[00:16:09] If you walk away from it, you've got to think to yourself, what's my plan B for not having these three things?
[00:16:15] And there are plenty of other things.
[00:16:17] It's difficult planning though.
[00:16:19] So Twitter was the one that was important to me.
[00:16:22] I got...
[00:16:23] I built up...
[00:16:24] I followed lots of people who built up quite a lot.
[00:16:26] So I got the connections there and, you know, I wasn't subject to a hateful algorithm that pushes this stuff down there.
[00:16:32] So it really worked for me.
[00:16:34] I had some of my...
[00:16:35] Some brilliant experience.
[00:16:37] I'm never going to be saying that it was always.
[00:16:39] Some brilliant experience and connected and made connections with the people and friends through that.
[00:16:45] That's been taken away from me.
[00:16:46] How do I plan?
[00:16:47] I can't replace it with anything.
[00:16:48] I can go onto another platform.
[00:16:50] But how long is it going to take me to build up that network of connections?
[00:16:54] Take some time.
[00:16:55] It doesn't happen overnight.
[00:16:57] I mean, I was quite an early adopter on Twitter.
[00:16:59] So back in 2009, I think.
[00:17:02] But yeah.
[00:17:03] And I say blue sky is the alternative that seems a better place and better discourse.
[00:17:10] And I know lots of people in the Guardians have gone over there now as well.
[00:17:14] I've left Twitter making that as a point.
[00:17:17] And, but yeah, I think it's a, it's an odd thing, isn't it?
[00:17:22] These platforms are free that become, we feel that become a sort of right for us to have.
[00:17:28] They're also sort of free.
[00:17:30] And also how does it, you know, it's not something we have to sort of think about.
[00:17:33] We don't pay for them.
[00:17:35] Yeah.
[00:17:35] And they're not free.
[00:17:37] And the reason they're not free is because we are the product and...
[00:17:40] Yeah, exactly.
[00:17:41] They make it from us and they've advertised to us.
[00:17:45] But, you know, you know, Twitter is in the hands of a billionaire who doesn't care if
[00:17:48] you lose it or the cost of it.
[00:17:50] So it's going to, it's going to disappear.
[00:17:52] And it's a, you know, it's a loss.
[00:17:54] I mean, how many businesses relied on Twitter as a platform for them to get business and then
[00:18:00] have gone.
[00:18:01] And this is about the world where these billionaires are so much more powerful than any, you know,
[00:18:08] any rich person has ever been.
[00:18:10] You know, the shadow government, I mean, you know, just, just scary.
[00:18:16] I mean, you know, but yeah, you're right.
[00:18:20] We've got to see where it goes.
[00:18:21] But your point, but that your point is really well made there.
[00:18:24] It does take time.
[00:18:25] And that's why we've got to start now because, you know, to not start now and then to say,
[00:18:30] oh my goodness, in a year's time, it's all gone.
[00:18:33] And that it'll be the people now who are getting it started.
[00:18:36] I mean, people talk on threads and I mean, threads will be lost to us, but in blue sky, they'll say how
[00:18:40] courteous it is and friendly and nice and all that sort of stuff.
[00:18:43] Well, it is because it's people who are nice who are going on it.
[00:18:47] And, you know, and it will be until it's not.
[00:18:51] And then you'll find someone else.
[00:18:53] And I think you have to be ready for that.
[00:18:55] They're giving some assurance because the problem with Twitter is the algorithm as well.
[00:18:58] It's been tweaked to promote certain voices.
[00:19:01] Of course.
[00:19:01] They say the algorithm isn't, you know, what you put will get up in order.
[00:19:06] That's yet to be seen whether they eventually continue with that because ultimately they're
[00:19:11] going to have to monetize it.
[00:19:12] And I want to make that's where it becomes an issue.
[00:19:16] Yeah, you're right on that.
[00:19:17] I mean, I, I do miss, I mean, it makes me feel old, but I do miss a day when I first found people
[00:19:23] through writing blogs and there was a bunch of us that had blogs and we all followed each other,
[00:19:28] commented on each other's blog posts back in the day.
[00:19:31] And I still follow some of them.
[00:19:34] I've followed some of those people and met as a blogger on Twitter and now over to Blue Sky.
[00:19:39] And, you know, so.
[00:19:40] But then I was, I was, I was fond of sending a letter with a quill pen as well.
[00:19:44] So, yeah, yeah, that's true.
[00:19:45] It all moves on.
[00:19:47] It does, it does.
[00:19:48] But I do think, I do think that we shouldn't, I mean, what these things are to us as a community
[00:19:55] when many of us are isolated and lonely.
[00:19:58] And I think that's interesting.
[00:20:00] But it is interesting you say that.
[00:20:01] And I think there is, whilst technology, the technology is not the problem.
[00:20:05] It's the people who own and wield the technology is the issue.
[00:20:08] Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:08] But there's going to be some quite significant changes in the AI, I think, over the course
[00:20:12] of next year, this year and next year, which I think will be quite radical for our community,
[00:20:16] because a lot of these big app based platforms are going to vanish.
[00:20:21] Because actually you don't need apps so much.
[00:20:23] So what will be happening is you'll be able to access a group of trans people.
[00:20:27] You'll be able to go on your phone, say, get me a group of trans people,
[00:20:30] and you'll be able to access them and get to talk to them.
[00:20:33] And I think this will be, this will be the future.
[00:20:35] And you'll be able to have a new avatar, which is all beautiful.
[00:20:39] And, you know, we could be doing tap dancing and all sorts of stuff.
[00:20:42] We wouldn't need a makeup lesson tutorial on YouTube anymore.
[00:20:46] Yeah, you're absolutely right on that.
[00:20:48] The highlight of my summer was when Microsoft Teams introduced the soft filter feature
[00:20:52] and I can then not put so much makeup on.
[00:20:56] Yeah, I am that shallow.
[00:20:58] So, yeah, no, I mean, look, I'm not a ludder.
[00:21:02] I'm all for technology.
[00:21:03] But I just think some of the things are really saddens me because some of the great promise
[00:21:09] of the internet and great promise of social media has been lost at the behest of...
[00:21:14] But it was inevitable.
[00:21:16] And actually, the way to think about this, perhaps, is that because of Tim Berners-Lee,
[00:21:20] the internet was free for a long time.
[00:21:22] Yeah.
[00:21:23] And actually, it was entirely possible that the internet could have been owned.
[00:21:26] And there was a big move about that, wasn't it?
[00:21:28] In the 70s and 80s.
[00:21:30] I think as investors basically tried to buy the internet.
[00:21:33] Well, that...
[00:21:33] And, you know, we've had it free for a long, long time.
[00:21:36] And, you know, we've been lucky.
[00:21:38] And I think it's like everything in life, isn't it?
[00:21:40] It's about what you can control.
[00:21:42] And I was, in these times, turned to the back of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
[00:21:47] and look at those two words.
[00:21:50] Don't panic.
[00:21:51] My choice...
[00:21:52] Oh, I love the Hitchhiker's.
[00:21:54] Of course.
[00:21:56] Absolutely.
[00:21:57] But, yeah, no, I mean, I'm not panicking, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be sad.
[00:22:02] No, we should be planning.
[00:22:03] Yeah, we should be planning.
[00:22:05] Also, as I say, it would, you know...
[00:22:11] I don't know.
[00:22:12] I just remember that time when I tried to find a community.
[00:22:14] And I'd like to think that people can find a community and connect.
[00:22:20] I think we'll go back to finding adverts on the back of magazines and things.
[00:22:25] That would be funny, wouldn't it?
[00:22:26] If we actually...
[00:22:26] No, that terrible advert that used to be in the back of Sunday papers for change-
[00:22:30] Transformation.
[00:22:31] Yeah, transformations, everybody.
[00:22:32] If you're old enough and in the community, you'll remember the back page of the paper
[00:22:37] with that...
[00:22:37] It was a black and white advert, Euston Road, and there was one in Bury.
[00:22:41] That's it?
[00:22:42] Yeah.
[00:22:42] Down the Euston Road.
[00:22:45] It feels so dated now.
[00:22:47] I've been there.
[00:22:48] Been to both of them.
[00:22:49] Years ago.
[00:22:50] I did pop in one on the Euston Road just out of curiosity.
[00:22:54] And it just seemed a bit sleazy to me.
[00:22:58] Didn't really feel comfortable.
[00:22:59] So expensive.
[00:23:00] Yeah, it was just, yeah, you know, clothes that most women would never look and see dead in.
[00:23:06] But, yeah, I do remember that.
[00:23:08] But I also remember seeing that for the first time and thinking, sort of, where I am.
[00:23:14] So, it's all connection in it.
[00:23:18] It's very interesting.
[00:23:20] And I think this year is going to be a fascinating year.
[00:23:22] And I think the important thing is, look, you know, we, as I've said millions of times,
[00:23:26] you have to look out for each other.
[00:23:28] And it's not always the simplest thing to sort of spiral in the middle of the night.
[00:23:32] I think sometimes you've got to just be able to reach out to people.
[00:23:34] And, you know, it happens to the best of us.
[00:23:36] I'm very positive.
[00:23:37] And I'm, you know, I work in mental health and such like.
[00:23:41] And, you know, I remember waking up the other night and being a bit answer myself and thinking to myself,
[00:23:46] oh, I'm a bit.
[00:23:46] I could, you know, I could sense what was the thoughts running around my head.
[00:23:51] And, you know, and you just, you know, you learn the skills and tools to be able to manage yourself.
[00:23:55] And it's about making sure that you know those.
[00:23:59] You need a good therapist, Jenny.
[00:24:01] And I think actually we're going to do an episode.
[00:24:03] I wish I knew any.
[00:24:04] We're going to do an episode soon about good, good counseling, good therapy, what to expect, what to get.
[00:24:11] Indeed.
[00:24:11] And how our community can benefit and how a lot of our community spends a lot of time training their therapist rather than getting any value out of them.
[00:24:20] Indeed.
[00:24:21] It's an interesting subject.
[00:24:22] Indeed.
[00:24:23] So that's on the stock.
[00:24:24] The community that does works in that area.
[00:24:26] I think we should have a good podcast on that.
[00:24:28] Yes, we're going to definitely do that.
[00:24:29] Well, look, happy Meta Day.
[00:24:32] And I'll see you back on WhatsApp because we're on it all the time doing memes and such like, aren't we?
[00:24:37] So there you go.
[00:24:38] Well, you certainly are.
[00:24:40] I'm not very good at the meme-age.
[00:24:42] Like memes.
[00:24:42] I'm very poor on WhatsApp.
[00:24:44] But yes, I shall see you soon.
[00:24:46] And we'll talk to you again next week.
[00:24:49] Be good.
[00:24:50] And you.
[00:24:51] Bye bye.
[00:24:51] Bye bye.
[00:24:52] Bye bye.
[00:24:54] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox.
[00:24:58] It's been a joy to have you with us.
[00:25:00] If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk.
[00:25:07] And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.
[00:25:10] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes.
[00:25:14] Which one have you chosen?
[00:25:15] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK.
[00:25:26] An amazing charity doing some amazing work.
[00:25:29] Really important.
[00:25:30] So please, if you can give.
[00:25:32] Great.
[00:25:33] And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.
[00:25:38] And, but as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us.
[00:25:43] Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to gillian at transvox.co.uk.
[00:25:56] Until the next time, goodbye.
[00:25:58] Bye-bye.