This week, Gillian and Jenny discuss a number of listener questions including the Tory leadership race, anti-trans sentiment, and the Labour Party's stance on trans rights. They also discuss a question about evolving friendships and attending a college reunion.
They also discuss the increasing use of the term "transgender" as a slur and its implications in American politics. They note that anti-trans sentiment has become a rallying point, with some people accusing others of being transgender as a form of insult. They also touched on the politics behind the deconstruction of language and the use of slurs.
They discuss the changes in their friendships after Jenny's transition. Jenny noted that her post-transition friendships with women were different from her pre-transition friendships. They agreed that people need time to adjust to changes in others. Jenny shared how her close friend was initially shocked but their friendship deepened after Jenny's transition. Both agreed that losing friendships with those who don't accept change opens doors to new connections.
Hope you enjoy and find this useful.
You can donate to support the work on the podcast or to help build the ‘hardship fund’ at @BeyondReflections - to help those who are financially challenged but still need support
[00:00:06] Hi and welcome back to Transvox. How are you, Jenny?
[00:00:11] I'm very well thanks, Gill. How are you?
[00:00:13] I'm good. I'm good actually. We were just chatting before we started here and talking about the fact that we've seen this big yellow blob thing in the sky again.
[00:00:19] Yeah, it's dead sunny here in Stoke. It's lovely. I mean, it's not warm, but sunny.
[00:00:26] No.
[00:00:26] I've actually been outside and we've talked about wigs before, maybe. I've just been out for a walk and it's quite nice to go out and not be coming back looking like a drowned rat.
[00:00:38] Right. Yeah, I always, the only thing I was worried about was it really windy that somehow it will blow off because I never got them to fit properly.
[00:00:45] But back in the day.
[00:00:46] My super glue is the answer to that.
[00:00:49] Yeah, yeah.
[00:00:50] I thought it would be interesting. We've got a very interesting couple of listeners questions.
[00:00:55] Oh, good.
[00:00:55] One's about politics, which I thought that'd be quite interesting. And one's about friendship.
[00:01:01] Okay.
[00:01:02] So I just wondered which one you might want to tackle first. Where should we go first?
[00:01:06] I don't mind. Do you want to do the dirty politics first?
[00:01:09] How do you do the dirty politics first?
[00:01:10] Well, the question we have is from Georgina, who is from Lammackshire.
[00:01:17] Now, for our listener in Taiwan, that's in Scotland.
[00:01:21] That's in Scotland.
[00:01:21] Another foreign country.
[00:01:24] It's nearly you. You're nearly Scottish up there in Newcastle.
[00:01:27] Yes, that's right. We built a wall, as I keep reminding you.
[00:01:31] Well, the question is, in the race for the Tory leadership, who are the least worst people who could become the new leaders of the of the Tory party?
[00:01:41] That's not a bad question. It's an interesting question.
[00:01:44] Who's the least worst?
[00:01:46] Well, yeah, it certainly is. I think today, as we speak, I think it's down to two, isn't it?
[00:01:52] It is.
[00:01:53] They've narrowed it down to two.
[00:01:55] Is it bad enough?
[00:01:57] Yeah.
[00:01:58] Robert Jenrick?
[00:02:00] Is that it? Yes.
[00:02:01] Yeah.
[00:02:01] I think they're both from the right of the party, but the name that puts trans people's name on the hair is Cami Badenock, because she's probably, in quite a crowded field, hands down, the worst person towards trans equality in parliament, maybe.
[00:02:23] Well, that's not something.
[00:02:25] Well, that's not something.
[00:02:50] Yeah.
[00:02:51] I think it's quite well stated, isn't it?
[00:02:54] So I think the least worst person would be Theresa May, but I don't think there's much chance of her coming back.
[00:03:01] No, it's extraordinary, really.
[00:03:02] I mean, as we said before, I've never been a fan, really, of any Tory party, but at least Theresa May tried to make things better for our community from what I saw.
[00:03:12] And it failed because it never got accepted.
[00:03:15] But how far that party's come now, where it seems like everybody is just, yeah, is just against us.
[00:03:24] But Cami Badenock is particularly, I think, dangerous.
[00:03:30] And, you know, maybe, you know, I don't know, maybe she won't get listened to or she won't get that platform or she'll just talk about other things and just hate on migrants all the time, which is probably what she's going to do.
[00:03:42] But I don't know.
[00:03:44] It's a very interesting time, though, because I think Rosie Duffield, who infamously is a Labour MP, who for our communities, I would term her transphobic, I wouldn't have any sense in saying that, has left the Labour Party and has left that party and become independent.
[00:04:05] I wonder whether her plans are and whether she's going to find another way to spouse anti-trans views that, I don't know, that would be that.
[00:04:16] Because on one hand, you think, oh, great, the person, I mean, I'm a member of the Labour Party, but a person who's anti-trans has left, you think, that's great.
[00:04:22] But it's what they're going to do with that now.
[00:04:24] Or what platform are they going to try and use?
[00:04:27] I assume they'll head towards reform because, I mean, that's where extreme left and right seem to head towards, don't they?
[00:04:35] Well, I don't know that she's extreme.
[00:04:37] I don't think you'd describe her as extreme left, but I couldn't see that because politically, I don't think that's easy for her.
[00:04:43] But the anti-trans view she has, I mean, it's very interesting when she resigned, if you looked, people outside the community wouldn't have necessarily picked it up.
[00:04:53] But I was looking at an interview and she was photographed and she had a T-shirt on.
[00:04:56] That's an anti-trans T-shirt.
[00:04:58] Yeah.
[00:04:58] Not a dog-wissely one.
[00:05:00] Not obviously, because it was a, I think it was a silhouette of her face with the words worthy of respect in a civilized society, which are the words used by the judge in upholding Maya Forstatter, the very damaging piece of law that said, basically, even though it's appurant, it's worthy of respect to be anti-trans.
[00:05:23] So she took it upon herself to make sure she was wearing that when she was being interviewed about this resignation.
[00:05:30] So that didn't make me think that she was going to walk away from the party and not get involved in that work, that anti-trans work.
[00:05:37] Who knows?
[00:05:38] But yeah, yeah.
[00:05:39] For our listener in Scotland.
[00:05:42] Yeah.
[00:05:43] I mean, I don't know much about Robert Jenrick, but Kemi Badenoch is somebody I would love to see relegated to the quieter areas of politics.
[00:05:54] I don't know about you.
[00:05:56] Well, the pretty quiet areas at the moment.
[00:05:58] Well, that's interesting, isn't it?
[00:05:59] This is interesting how, yeah, it is.
[00:06:02] It is interesting how transgenderism has become a slur and has become a rallying point, anti-trans sentiment.
[00:06:09] What's interesting, there's a new, did you see this new move in America to accuse people in the States of being transgender if they're negative?
[00:06:20] So what the saying is, and do you know who the latest person is who's suffered this?
[00:06:24] Someone who's just recently published a book, and that person's called Melania Trump.
[00:06:30] And the allegation is that Melania Trump is transgender.
[00:06:34] Do you know, there's a word for this.
[00:06:36] Do you know what the word for it?
[00:06:37] Go on.
[00:06:37] They're called transvestigators, right?
[00:06:40] That's it.
[00:06:40] That's it.
[00:06:41] They are absolutely batshit.
[00:06:44] So they accuse everybody from, you know, they seem to accuse everybody.
[00:06:50] I mean, Michelle Obama got a lot of this.
[00:06:52] Michelle Obama.
[00:06:53] And they're absolutely nuts.
[00:06:55] But they accuse people who are overtly anti-trans.
[00:06:57] They seem to, you know, analyzing bone structure, face structure, all sorts of nonsense.
[00:07:03] They are absolutely batshit.
[00:07:05] I don't know if it's just trolling for clicks or it's something more than that.
[00:07:11] But they're crazy, crazy.
[00:07:13] They are.
[00:07:14] Yes.
[00:07:16] They're feeding into this narrative that word transgender has actually linked inextricably to some sort of weird perversion-y type thing.
[00:07:27] Is that they're sort of trying to change the...
[00:07:28] I think they're trying to deconstruct the language to make something happen here.
[00:07:32] So, you know, being transgender is now an insult.
[00:07:34] It's almost in parts of the politics being used as a slurring of itself, which is crazy because it's clearly not.
[00:07:43] It's like when I was a kid.
[00:07:45] Hundreds of thousands.
[00:07:46] Yes.
[00:07:46] Yeah.
[00:07:46] It was like when I was a kid.
[00:07:48] And if you're in a playground, you used to use a word that meant you were a homosexual as an insult.
[00:07:53] You know, there were various words, weren't there?
[00:07:55] All sorts of different words.
[00:07:56] But, you know, those words were, you know, there is a word for a homosexual, but it was meant as an insult.
[00:08:02] And I think that's what they're trying to do with the transgender word.
[00:08:05] And it's...
[00:08:06] I don't think that will catch on in that way.
[00:08:08] It's a bit long.
[00:08:09] Yeah.
[00:08:09] I don't think it'll catch on in that way because it's missed that boat, in a sense, because trans people are happy to say we're trans.
[00:08:18] You know, it's not.
[00:08:19] But it's within those circles.
[00:08:21] The majority of the population would never see it that way.
[00:08:23] But within those circles, it is seen that way because they hate on trans people so much.
[00:08:28] Within that right wing, that ultra right wing sort of YouTube type commentator.
[00:08:35] You know, the Stephen Crowther's of this world and Matt Walsh is of this world.
[00:08:41] That's done in that way.
[00:08:42] But, yeah, those trans investigators that you see pop up on Twitter and elsewhere are pretty out there, to be honest.
[00:08:51] Yes.
[00:08:52] He's an interesting question.
[00:08:54] He is an interesting question.
[00:08:56] I'll try and string some of the syllables together in a meaningful order.
[00:08:59] It's from Gary in Wyoming.
[00:09:01] So, Gary's a trans man.
[00:09:03] So, that's lovely.
[00:09:04] Welcome, Gary.
[00:09:05] Always nice to hear from across the pond.
[00:09:08] And what Gary's question is this.
[00:09:10] He said, it's getting close to the first 100 days of Labour being in power.
[00:09:13] And we and previous podcasts have talked about, don't worry, once Labour are in, it'll be fine.
[00:09:19] What's our assessment of how the Labour Party are doing so far in terms of helping with trans rights?
[00:09:28] That's a good question.
[00:09:29] That's interesting.
[00:09:30] I don't know if Gary's British then.
[00:09:31] It's good to see an American taking such interest in our politics.
[00:09:37] I don't think there's anything happened in terms of the Labour government, in terms of any equality.
[00:09:42] I mean, they've made a bit of a ham fist of, they've made a bit of a mess of the first few months, I think, in many ways, with all the, you know, the slight sleaze about receiving gifts and things.
[00:09:55] Wasn't there as Keir Starmer in his suits?
[00:09:57] It hasn't gone well, to my mind, as it should have done.
[00:10:02] I mean, I'm still pleased that they're in power rather than the alternative.
[00:10:07] But I don't hear that they've made any really talk much.
[00:10:13] There wasn't anything in the Queen's speech about improving any equality rights.
[00:10:17] And I'm not expecting that to be the case.
[00:10:20] I think the one thing we hope they are that do is not going to implement some of the stuff the Tories are planning.
[00:10:25] And I haven't really heard much around that sort of in schools and in the NHS.
[00:10:29] So that's interesting.
[00:10:34] But, yeah, it's good to see listeners will take an interest in our crazy politics.
[00:10:40] I don't know what your assessment is, Jill.
[00:10:42] It's been a strange period.
[00:10:45] I mean, I always said I thought it was going to be lower down their priorities.
[00:10:52] And I think that's still the case.
[00:10:54] And I think you're right.
[00:10:55] I think they're busy making all sorts of terrible mistakes and such like, which are entirely self-inflicted.
[00:11:04] It's really quite peculiar.
[00:11:06] And I think part of that is because actually they haven't done things like put a plan together that's saying, you know,
[00:11:11] first we're going to tackle this, then we're going to tackle that, then we're going to tackle this.
[00:11:14] There's no sort of roadmaps.
[00:11:16] So people just think with that, with so much to do that, it's just not the most important thing on there.
[00:11:26] No, no.
[00:11:27] I don't think the only thing was in there, there wasn't a huge amount in the manifesto.
[00:11:31] I think they had talked about doing some improvements to the Gender Recognition Act.
[00:11:36] Yes.
[00:11:37] Not as far as I'd like to see it go, but certainly some improvements, I think.
[00:11:42] But again, I don't think it's high on the agenda.
[00:11:45] So this is maybe to the third or fourth year of the parliament, maybe we'd see that.
[00:11:49] But it would be nice not to be out of the limelight for a bit as well, politically, I think.
[00:11:55] Yes.
[00:11:55] I just think things like West Streeting, reinforcing the gender blocker ban, puberty blockers and reinstating,
[00:12:02] you know, keeping that going, extending that ban was a very odd sign.
[00:12:07] Yeah, I've got no confidence in West Streeting on trans equality issues.
[00:12:13] And, you know, the whole thing has become embroiled, you know, on the back of the cast report.
[00:12:19] And then you've got the doctors' union, the BMA, criticising it and then backtracking a little bit, it seems.
[00:12:27] So they're sort of being a bit more neutral about it, it seems to me, which is disappointing.
[00:12:31] But they've sort of said they've got concerns about it, but they've backtracked from their position,
[00:12:35] which was stronger.
[00:12:38] So, yeah, the whole thing's a bit of a mess.
[00:12:41] But, yeah, for me as a trade union rep, they are starting to talk today about a new employment rights,
[00:12:48] which for me as a trade union rep is good.
[00:12:50] So selfishly, that's the one thing that they're going to, it seems to be doing first up that I would absolutely support,
[00:12:56] which is improving some aspects of employment law and making,
[00:13:03] I think the one thing for us as trade unions is making a,
[00:13:06] but I think they're going to propose that you can have digital, you know,
[00:13:09] online voting and industrial action ballots, which is well before its time, you know.
[00:13:15] It should have happened years ago.
[00:13:17] Yeah, so it's difficult to make judgments, but for Gary, was it?
[00:13:21] I'm not, I don't think we're expecting anything radical,
[00:13:26] but I think we're quite settled for not, personally anyway,
[00:13:30] for not being at the centre of things for a little bit.
[00:13:33] I don't know.
[00:13:34] Yeah, it's a good point.
[00:13:36] Well, here's the question.
[00:13:38] I like this one.
[00:13:39] And for anybody who wants to submit a question,
[00:13:42] just drop me an email at gillianrussell77 at yahoo.com.
[00:13:46] You're very welcome to do that.
[00:13:47] Or go to transvox.co.uk and just submit a question.
[00:13:52] That's absolutely fine.
[00:13:54] Now, so this is interesting.
[00:13:56] Now, this is from Laura in Salford.
[00:14:00] So actually not far from you, oddly enough.
[00:14:03] And here's an interesting question.
[00:14:05] Ish.
[00:14:06] She's been invited to a college reunion.
[00:14:10] Oh, right.
[00:14:11] And what she's saying is, have we encountered anything like this?
[00:14:15] And how did relationships with friends that had known us for a long time
[00:14:20] before we were changed, how did they change once they found out
[00:14:24] that we're now transgender?
[00:14:26] Oh, so, sorry, what was the name?
[00:14:29] I didn't pick it.
[00:14:30] Laura.
[00:14:30] So she's transitioned and been invited back to her.
[00:14:36] Yes.
[00:14:37] I think it's a fascinating subject.
[00:14:38] I was only talking about this with a friend the other day about,
[00:14:42] because we've talked about families,
[00:14:43] but relationships with friends who knew you previously,
[00:14:46] how that transitions and whether those friendships keep the same dynamic.
[00:14:51] I think it's a really interesting subject,
[00:14:53] a really interesting question that maybe needed,
[00:14:56] probably need to give you some more proper thought.
[00:14:57] But because I've been told, I haven't watched it yet,
[00:15:00] but apparently there's a, the actor Will Ferrell, you know,
[00:15:03] the comic actor of America has best,
[00:15:08] one of best friends has transitioned at later age, I think 60s,
[00:15:13] 50s or 60s, 60s, I think.
[00:15:16] I can't remember Harper, the name is.
[00:15:18] She was a writer on Saturday Night Live, right?
[00:15:21] And Will Ferrell knew for that.
[00:15:23] And then she's transitioned.
[00:15:24] And I think there's a documentary about a road trip they took around America
[00:15:28] and about that friendship and how that,
[00:15:31] how that does that change when somebody transitions, you know,
[00:15:34] is that relationship, a friendship that was between two men,
[00:15:38] now between a man and a woman?
[00:15:39] Yeah.
[00:15:40] And I think that's a really interesting thing because it's,
[00:15:43] it's something I thought about when I,
[00:15:44] when I transitioned and,
[00:15:47] and met up with friends who'd known me previously and,
[00:15:50] and whether that was how awkward it was for them,
[00:15:54] maybe,
[00:15:54] or they sort of found that difficult to relate to me in that same way.
[00:15:59] Do we relate differently?
[00:16:00] I think this,
[00:16:00] it's really interesting.
[00:16:03] I must watch that documentary.
[00:16:04] I'm told it's quite touching.
[00:16:07] But yeah,
[00:16:07] because we make friends.
[00:16:09] I mean,
[00:16:10] the friends I made post-transition with other women are a different dynamic
[00:16:17] than the friends I had pre-transition.
[00:16:20] I haven't,
[00:16:21] in many ways,
[00:16:22] my brain hasn't,
[00:16:23] you know,
[00:16:23] I've changed in,
[00:16:24] in who I,
[00:16:25] in,
[00:16:26] in a lot of who I am,
[00:16:27] but what interesting how those friendships are different.
[00:16:31] And,
[00:16:32] um,
[00:16:33] um,
[00:16:33] I don't know.
[00:16:34] It's,
[00:16:34] I've not really,
[00:16:35] uh,
[00:16:36] I've never really properly analyzed it,
[00:16:38] but it definitely is.
[00:16:39] And it's whether,
[00:16:41] I mean,
[00:16:41] I know I do hear of people losing friends.
[00:16:44] Um,
[00:16:44] I think,
[00:16:45] I think it's tricky,
[00:16:46] isn't it?
[00:16:46] Because it's such a shock.
[00:16:47] So I,
[00:16:47] I found things like Facebook groups where I was at school and I've gone back in,
[00:16:51] in,
[00:16:52] you know,
[00:16:52] my new identity and things.
[00:16:55] And then sort of not saying anything to start off with,
[00:16:58] but just contributing to conversations.
[00:16:59] And a few people saying,
[00:17:00] who are you?
[00:17:01] Which class were you in?
[00:17:03] All that sort of stuff.
[00:17:04] Yeah.
[00:17:04] And then,
[00:17:04] and then you say,
[00:17:05] and then there's,
[00:17:07] then there's either no response.
[00:17:10] Or,
[00:17:11] well,
[00:17:11] it's all perplexed really.
[00:17:13] It's,
[00:17:13] it's almost as,
[00:17:14] and I,
[00:17:14] and I think part of it might be just the shock.
[00:17:16] And I think one of the things I was thinking about was on the,
[00:17:19] on this,
[00:17:20] on the reunion thing,
[00:17:21] it,
[00:17:22] it's worth,
[00:17:22] it's worth having someone you can go and talk to when you arrive.
[00:17:25] Because I think one of the frightening things about friends is it's,
[00:17:29] it's,
[00:17:30] it's that walking up to them and going,
[00:17:31] here I am.
[00:17:32] And it's,
[00:17:33] you have to give people the chance to manage their face,
[00:17:37] don't you?
[00:17:38] It's,
[00:17:39] it's,
[00:17:39] and their initial reaction.
[00:17:40] It is,
[00:17:41] it is,
[00:17:41] it is.
[00:17:42] I remember when I,
[00:17:43] so when I,
[00:17:44] when I first came,
[00:17:46] I was just before I fully transitioned at work,
[00:17:48] but I was pretty much.
[00:17:48] So,
[00:17:49] I remember contacting my friend that I'd had for years,
[00:17:53] Vicky and I,
[00:17:54] I'm sure she's not listening.
[00:17:55] We were really close friends.
[00:17:57] And then we slightly drifted apart when I was married and she was in a relationship.
[00:18:01] So maybe not seeing each other for about six months or a year,
[00:18:05] not see this as regularly,
[00:18:06] but we're always really close,
[00:18:08] you know,
[00:18:08] thinking about each other.
[00:18:09] And I contacted her and said,
[00:18:11] and you never know how to,
[00:18:12] nobody prepares you what to say.
[00:18:14] So I gave her a phone call,
[00:18:15] said,
[00:18:16] hi Vicky,
[00:18:17] that's something I need to tell you.
[00:18:18] And of course I did that for quite a few people.
[00:18:20] And of course their first reaction is,
[00:18:22] because I'm sounding quite serious,
[00:18:24] I think I'm going to tell them I'm really ill or something.
[00:18:27] And then I said,
[00:18:28] and then I'm trans,
[00:18:29] I'm transitioning.
[00:18:30] And I certainly know that not nobody in my life suspected I was trans.
[00:18:35] I was the least likely person.
[00:18:37] There was,
[00:18:38] it was not that you can tell who's trans or not pre-transition necessarily,
[00:18:42] but it was a real shock,
[00:18:44] right?
[00:18:45] I was far down the list of,
[00:18:47] if you were going to rank people who were possibly trans.
[00:18:50] And,
[00:18:50] and I said,
[00:18:51] can I come around to see you?
[00:18:52] And,
[00:18:53] you know,
[00:18:53] as Jenny,
[00:18:54] you know,
[00:18:54] as Jenny.
[00:18:55] And there was a bit of hesitation in her voice.
[00:18:58] And then when I asked her about it,
[00:18:59] she said,
[00:18:59] said yes.
[00:19:00] She was,
[00:19:01] she told me she was nervous because she couldn't imagine how I'd look and present.
[00:19:06] She never,
[00:19:07] and she was really worried that I would,
[00:19:10] you know,
[00:19:11] it would be such a shock or she would feel awkward.
[00:19:13] And she was worried about what her response was,
[00:19:16] would be.
[00:19:16] I remember her telling me this and,
[00:19:18] you know,
[00:19:18] and she was sort of relieved when I did go around that I didn't look as,
[00:19:22] you know,
[00:19:23] because she had no concept.
[00:19:24] Maybe it's stuff she read that I might be wearing something that was completely inappropriate or look,
[00:19:28] you know?
[00:19:29] So that was definitely a concern for us about,
[00:19:32] I think because she was a friend,
[00:19:34] she didn't want to react badly,
[00:19:35] but also worried about that.
[00:19:36] And we quickly became closer than we ever were as friends,
[00:19:41] as women friends,
[00:19:42] you know,
[00:19:42] and actually that friendship was far more deeper with Vicky after my transition
[00:19:46] than it was before.
[00:19:48] That to the point,
[00:19:49] you know,
[00:19:50] so at all my female friends post-transition,
[00:19:53] those friendships to my mind have always been deeper.
[00:19:56] And that may be because I was more comfortable,
[00:19:58] happy with myself rather than it being a sort of male,
[00:20:02] female dynamic necessarily.
[00:20:04] But yeah,
[00:20:04] that,
[00:20:05] that,
[00:20:05] that worry.
[00:20:07] Well,
[00:20:07] sorry,
[00:20:07] sorry.
[00:20:08] I do a,
[00:20:09] I do go on it,
[00:20:10] but I had the same experience about like trying to contact people on Twitter or whatever,
[00:20:16] just seeking people out and by the thought of saying,
[00:20:18] well,
[00:20:18] by the way,
[00:20:18] hi.
[00:20:19] And did you know,
[00:20:20] this is me.
[00:20:21] And I think a few of them sort of didn't respond or I got the impression that they really felt a bit.
[00:20:27] Well,
[00:20:28] fine,
[00:20:28] but I don't really want to know.
[00:20:29] I haven't seen you in 20 years,
[00:20:31] you know,
[00:20:32] Don't lie not on me.
[00:20:33] So,
[00:20:33] and it was probably my need or want to re-engage with people because I felt I wanted to do that.
[00:20:40] Yeah.
[00:20:41] It's a really interesting thing,
[00:20:42] isn't it?
[00:20:43] That,
[00:20:43] that bit of our life really.
[00:20:45] I do hear of people who lose friendships,
[00:20:47] which is really sad.
[00:20:49] I think,
[00:20:49] I think I've come to,
[00:20:50] this is,
[00:20:51] this may be about the nihilist sort of view,
[00:20:52] but I've come to the,
[00:20:53] I've come to the conclusion.
[00:20:57] And this may be,
[00:20:58] and maybe you need to slap me around the chops for this,
[00:21:00] but I sort of come to the conclusion that when you start out,
[00:21:04] you should expect,
[00:21:06] maybe your expectations,
[00:21:07] or you should lose your wife,
[00:21:08] your family,
[00:21:09] your friends,
[00:21:10] your job,
[00:21:10] your dogs,
[00:21:12] everything.
[00:21:12] And then actually everything that you don't lose,
[00:21:16] it's like a massive win.
[00:21:18] And,
[00:21:18] you know,
[00:21:18] I was talking to someone,
[00:21:19] you know,
[00:21:20] the other day,
[00:21:20] who's a partner of a trans person.
[00:21:22] They're saying,
[00:21:23] I want to stay and support them,
[00:21:25] but it's very strange because I don't understand what's going on.
[00:21:27] And I was saying this,
[00:21:28] you know,
[00:21:29] if I was a trans person,
[00:21:30] if I were,
[00:21:31] if I were your husband,
[00:21:33] who was trans,
[00:21:34] who was trans and trans and going through transition at the moment,
[00:21:38] they'd be very lucky to have you.
[00:21:40] And actually,
[00:21:41] I think sometimes that's a better way of looking at it.
[00:21:43] Cause a lot of trans people seem to think they're just going to announce things to people.
[00:21:46] And it's all going to be great.
[00:21:48] Um,
[00:21:49] but I know that's,
[00:21:50] I know mine's,
[00:21:50] mine's a slightly extreme view,
[00:21:51] but I've got,
[00:21:52] I don't think it is.
[00:21:54] I think,
[00:21:54] I think what you're expressing,
[00:21:55] I'm a,
[00:21:56] I was trying to think of what the worst could happen and use that as a baseline.
[00:21:59] Cause that's the top type of,
[00:22:01] um,
[00:22:02] Eeyore like personality I am.
[00:22:04] Well,
[00:22:04] Marvin,
[00:22:04] the paranoid Andrew.
[00:22:05] And that's my,
[00:22:06] my default is to think.
[00:22:09] I must admit that wasn't the interesting that it wasn't the case when I transitioned.
[00:22:13] I was sort of confident people would go with it.
[00:22:15] Maybe it was a different time in 2020,
[00:22:18] uh,
[00:22:18] 2005.
[00:22:20] But I think,
[00:22:21] I think that,
[00:22:21] I think that is really,
[00:22:22] really interesting that,
[00:22:24] you know,
[00:22:25] that can protect you if you,
[00:22:26] if you say,
[00:22:27] well,
[00:22:27] I'm going to lose this.
[00:22:28] I remember it reminds me what you said.
[00:22:30] Cause I,
[00:22:31] in a sense,
[00:22:31] I tend to sort of agree with you.
[00:22:33] I,
[00:22:33] when I was doing this speech to trade union Congress,
[00:22:36] you know,
[00:22:36] seven or eight years ago,
[00:22:37] you know,
[00:22:38] the biggest sort of moment of my trans activist in my life to be speaking to Congress on trans rights.
[00:22:44] And I was trying to make the point about,
[00:22:45] I was trying to make the point that people don't transition on a whim,
[00:22:49] you know,
[00:22:49] that people,
[00:22:50] that everybody who transitioned has thought about it.
[00:22:51] And I,
[00:22:52] and part of that,
[00:22:53] like I wish I could remember the actual words.
[00:22:54] I talk about how much we risk,
[00:22:55] we risk this and this and this and this.
[00:22:57] We risk,
[00:22:57] we risk family and we risk friends when we transition.
[00:23:01] But I think I ended it off.
[00:23:02] But if we don't transition often,
[00:23:04] we risk everything.
[00:23:05] It was a,
[00:23:05] it was a nice,
[00:23:06] I quite like that bit of the speech.
[00:23:08] I wish I could dig it out and say it again.
[00:23:09] But my point was that we'd go into that knowing that that might be something that we risk,
[00:23:15] you know,
[00:23:15] and hopefully things get better.
[00:23:18] And I think things,
[00:23:19] you know,
[00:23:20] I,
[00:23:20] I'd like to think most people don't lose those relationships and,
[00:23:23] and true friendships ought to,
[00:23:25] ought to be able to survive that.
[00:23:28] You know,
[00:23:29] you would hope,
[00:23:30] but,
[00:23:30] you know,
[00:23:31] the figures show that as a community,
[00:23:32] we can be isolated.
[00:23:34] We can lose touch with,
[00:23:36] we know about family,
[00:23:37] but we can also lose,
[00:23:38] lose our friendships.
[00:23:40] And I think the,
[00:23:41] and I think the thing here is that sometimes losing friendships with people that don't want to be friends opens the route open,
[00:23:49] opens the route to having new friends who are prepared to accept.
[00:23:52] And I think,
[00:23:53] I think it takes a bit of courage sometimes to go and,
[00:23:57] you know,
[00:23:58] talk to new people.
[00:23:59] That's why going,
[00:23:59] you know,
[00:24:00] joining groups,
[00:24:01] you know,
[00:24:01] getting a sort of a posse,
[00:24:03] you know,
[00:24:04] a new group of people,
[00:24:05] you might not like them.
[00:24:06] Maybe they're not all going to turn into your bosom,
[00:24:08] bosom friends,
[00:24:09] and for the future or,
[00:24:10] but,
[00:24:11] but,
[00:24:11] you know,
[00:24:11] maybe the will as well.
[00:24:13] And I think it's that thing of just having company,
[00:24:16] isn't it?
[00:24:16] Going to places where you can be yourself.
[00:24:18] It absolutely is,
[00:24:20] but it absolutely is that.
[00:24:21] And I say,
[00:24:22] I've so many times,
[00:24:24] the immediate years post my transition and the friendships are made and how I'm socializing and the depth of those friendships,
[00:24:31] what we shared with each other was more than I'd ever had previously.
[00:24:34] But,
[00:24:35] you know,
[00:24:35] I haven't,
[00:24:37] I haven't lost,
[00:24:38] I don't think I'd lost any friends through it.
[00:24:40] You know,
[00:24:40] any friends that in a sense would have been male friends that would have related to me in that way.
[00:24:45] Because that's,
[00:24:46] I think,
[00:24:47] that could be where that sort of change is.
[00:24:49] You relate to each other as the same gender and then your opposite genders.
[00:24:53] And it's that thing can,
[00:24:55] can men and women never ever be just friends.
[00:24:57] It's like Harry Met Sally,
[00:24:58] isn't it?
[00:24:58] That's the trope of that.
[00:25:00] And if you're different genders,
[00:25:02] does that change it?
[00:25:03] I think,
[00:25:03] I think that is,
[00:25:05] it is different.
[00:25:06] I mean,
[00:25:06] I did,
[00:25:06] I did do that reunion thing with my friend from teenage years who was the closest to him.
[00:25:12] And I managed to find them online through Facebook or something.
[00:25:15] And I thought I'd tell them we were really close as teenagers growing up,
[00:25:19] shared everything together.
[00:25:20] As close as it could be.
[00:25:22] And I met them up,
[00:25:24] Andrew,
[00:25:24] the name was,
[00:25:25] I met them up in London when I was down there one day and had a drink.
[00:25:28] And it was nice.
[00:25:29] You know,
[00:25:30] slightly awkward,
[00:25:31] I imagine.
[00:25:32] Certainly from Andrew's point of view,
[00:25:33] I loved it meeting up with somebody.
[00:25:34] I haven't met them again since just because we'll have been different lives.
[00:25:37] But it was nice to be able to close that off in a certain way and to,
[00:25:41] to pull that circle that they now know me who is who I am.
[00:25:44] And it was a nice,
[00:25:47] really nice moment to be able to do that.
[00:25:49] But it is,
[00:25:51] it is an interesting subject.
[00:25:53] And I must have a look at that documentary.
[00:25:57] Yeah.
[00:25:58] It sounds really interesting.
[00:25:59] Friendships,
[00:26:01] you know,
[00:26:01] that they're as important,
[00:26:02] as important or maybe more important than family in many ways.
[00:26:06] I think they're more important.
[00:26:07] Important,
[00:26:08] aren't they?
[00:26:08] It's,
[00:26:08] it's that,
[00:26:09] because actually you're sort of stuck with your family,
[00:26:12] but you choose your friends,
[00:26:14] don't you?
[00:26:14] And also that,
[00:26:15] I also think there's that thing about friends that you don't have to have a
[00:26:18] friend for all of your life.
[00:26:19] So,
[00:26:20] yeah,
[00:26:20] and that's quite nice,
[00:26:21] isn't it?
[00:26:21] In a way,
[00:26:22] you often get friends from work,
[00:26:23] don't you?
[00:26:24] Which I find is interesting.
[00:26:25] So,
[00:26:25] you know,
[00:26:26] when you leave work and you move on to another organization,
[00:26:28] you suddenly find that you don't really have that much in common with that
[00:26:31] person.
[00:26:31] That's certainly my experience.
[00:26:33] So I don't think I've got any friends now that were,
[00:26:35] I don't know anybody from school for it.
[00:26:37] So I'm not in touch.
[00:26:39] but the friends I've met in the community are amazing.
[00:26:44] I wasn't part of the LGBTQ plus community.
[00:26:48] I'm part of a community and I've met some amazing people through being part of
[00:26:51] that community.
[00:26:52] So that's something that opened up to me that wasn't there before I
[00:26:56] transitioned.
[00:26:57] I told you what happened to me,
[00:26:58] didn't I?
[00:26:58] That I was at a trans group and I was chatting away and someone tapped me up
[00:27:03] because I was talking about school.
[00:27:05] Okay.
[00:27:06] How ghastly my school had been.
[00:27:07] You haven't told me this all years.
[00:27:09] Haven't.
[00:27:10] Actually,
[00:27:10] and it's really interesting because my,
[00:27:12] my name is after someone I knew at school.
[00:27:14] So someone who I,
[00:27:15] Oh,
[00:27:17] so that's often the way,
[00:27:18] you know,
[00:27:18] there were two people,
[00:27:19] two close friends of mine at school.
[00:27:22] One,
[00:27:22] one was called Jillian.
[00:27:23] The other was their friend.
[00:27:24] And I decided I was going to be one or the other and I couldn't decide.
[00:27:27] So anyway,
[00:27:28] but there I was in a trans group chatting away,
[00:27:31] talking about how ghastly my school was.
[00:27:32] And then someone tapped me on the shoulder and it was an old teacher who
[00:27:36] was also trans.
[00:27:37] Oh,
[00:27:37] that's amazing.
[00:27:38] How about that?
[00:27:39] How would a coincidence?
[00:27:42] Maybe I've not mentioned this podcast again.
[00:27:44] I must tell the story.
[00:27:46] Probably I've got time today about me and my cousin,
[00:27:48] but both turned out to be trans when we didn't know,
[00:27:52] but that's amazing when that happens.
[00:27:54] For a teacher to come up and,
[00:27:56] Oh,
[00:27:56] how fabulous that is.
[00:27:57] I reckon,
[00:27:58] I recognize that.
[00:27:59] I recognize that what you're saying about that school.
[00:28:01] And so I was a teacher and then we sort of looked at each other.
[00:28:04] And of course we,
[00:28:04] of course,
[00:28:06] and this is the thing because of course we,
[00:28:07] we both knew each other pre-transition.
[00:28:11] So that's quite awkward.
[00:28:12] I would imagine even now I'd find it awkward meeting a teacher in real life.
[00:28:16] Yeah.
[00:28:16] That I only knew at school.
[00:28:18] It was always weird when you met a teacher out on the street,
[00:28:21] not in the school,
[00:28:22] like they were normal people,
[00:28:23] but that's,
[00:28:24] that's,
[00:28:25] that's an amazing story.
[00:28:26] So that,
[00:28:26] Oh wow.
[00:28:28] And of course,
[00:28:29] I suppose what's interesting.
[00:28:30] He was,
[00:28:31] he must've been very young.
[00:28:32] So he was only about five or six years older than me.
[00:28:36] Cause of course,
[00:28:37] you know,
[00:28:37] in those days,
[00:28:38] you know,
[00:28:38] teachers just rocked up,
[00:28:40] didn't they?
[00:28:40] Yeah.
[00:28:41] Yeah.
[00:28:41] Yeah.
[00:28:41] Yeah.
[00:28:41] Yeah.
[00:28:42] But he,
[00:28:42] I remember him.
[00:28:42] He's a very,
[00:28:43] very good teacher.
[00:28:43] He's one of the few teachers that didn't have a belt.
[00:28:46] So he was on the few that didn't hit you.
[00:28:48] Oh gosh.
[00:28:49] He was quite,
[00:28:50] I didn't know where you were going.
[00:28:50] Not,
[00:28:51] wow.
[00:28:51] Belt on trousers.
[00:28:52] No,
[00:28:52] belt,
[00:28:52] because they used to,
[00:28:53] the teachers in my school used to have belts over the shoulders.
[00:28:56] Oh,
[00:28:56] which he used to use to hit you with.
[00:28:58] So that was always quite interesting.
[00:28:59] I am.
[00:29:00] I mean,
[00:29:01] I,
[00:29:01] I think I was towards the end of corporal punishment being a thing in school.
[00:29:07] So I remember a slipper and things being used,
[00:29:09] but I think it was,
[00:29:10] cause I think it was sort of outlaw made illegal not long after I left school.
[00:29:15] You're very young,
[00:29:16] you see.
[00:29:17] I'm not very young.
[00:29:17] I'm not much younger.
[00:29:18] I don't think it's much different,
[00:29:19] but isn't it sound so weird now to think that it was,
[00:29:23] I mean,
[00:29:23] you obviously hear those historical stories as well.
[00:29:25] of abuse,
[00:29:26] but the teachers were allowed to just hit pupils,
[00:29:28] you know,
[00:29:31] what an experience of meeting up your old teacher.
[00:29:35] And that's the thing about going out and risking meeting new people.
[00:29:39] Cause actually you never know who you're going to meet.
[00:29:41] That's true.
[00:29:42] That's true.
[00:29:43] And on that note,
[00:29:44] maybe we should close this question and answer session down for the,
[00:29:47] for the prevalent.
[00:29:48] As I said earlier,
[00:29:49] if you want to send us a question,
[00:29:51] you're more than welcome to.
[00:29:52] We can also witter on about whatever you might,
[00:29:55] want to talk,
[00:29:56] ask us,
[00:29:56] ask us,
[00:29:57] always very happy.
[00:29:57] And if you've got a specific thing,
[00:29:59] then you're also welcome to chat to you.
[00:30:01] Definitely.
[00:30:02] And you may get that question in about Star Trek.
[00:30:04] Eventually we'll do that podcast.
[00:30:06] Eventually we'll do it.
[00:30:07] No one's asked us.
[00:30:08] No one's asked us recently to do an episode on Star Trek,
[00:30:12] which is really sad because I've been looking forward to that.
[00:30:14] I've got so much to share.
[00:30:15] Yes.
[00:30:16] That's the reason we avoid it.
[00:30:17] I think I put a,
[00:30:18] I must've put some block on your emails for that not to happen.
[00:30:22] Stay next week.
[00:30:23] Take care everyone.
[00:30:24] Bye.
[00:30:28] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox.
[00:30:31] It's been a joy to have you with us.
[00:30:33] If you want to make contact with us,
[00:30:36] you can contact us at Jillian at transvox.co.uk.
[00:30:41] And if you'd like to support the work we do,
[00:30:44] please go to Patreon and go to page transvox.
[00:30:47] And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.
[00:30:50] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes.
[00:30:54] Which one would be chosen?
[00:30:55] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections,
[00:30:58] which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people,
[00:31:03] non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK.
[00:31:07] An amazing charity doing some amazing work, really important.
[00:31:10] So please, if you can give.
[00:31:12] Great.
[00:31:13] And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections,
[00:31:15] it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.
[00:31:18] But as I say,
[00:31:19] if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing,
[00:31:21] because we love to help the people who help us.
[00:31:23] Again, if you've got ideas for the show,
[00:31:26] things you'd like to ask us,
[00:31:28] questions, comments, applause, or brickbats,
[00:31:31] feel free to send it all in to Jillian at transvox.co.uk.
[00:31:36] Until the next time, goodbye.
[00:31:38] Bye-bye.