Transvox - Q&A - Fashions and Faux Pas

[00:00:06] Hi and welcome back to Transvox and it's a very good afternoon to my colleague on the airwaves.

[00:00:16] It's my old friend, Jen. How are you, Jenny?

[00:00:19] I'm very well. Thanks for the emphasis on the old, I'm afraid.

[00:00:22] Very much so.

[00:00:22] But I'm very well. Thanks, Jen. How are you?

[00:00:24] I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm not mentioning your outfit today because I'm afraid.

[00:00:29] I'm afraid it's too shocking.

[00:00:31] It is a bit too much isn't it?

[00:00:32] There may be people listening who are appalled.

[00:00:36] Yeah, I think it would certainly get me...

[00:00:39] If this is a video podcast, it'd certainly get me cancelled, I think.

[00:00:42] I think so. I mean, you know, those polystyrene things from the shops and boxes.

[00:00:48] I mean, it's imaginative. I have to say that but I'm not sure what it's working for.

[00:00:53] It would be just half-decent to be actually fitted, but they are.

[00:00:57] Well, I'm absolutely...

[00:00:57] When you see... And it leads so beautifully, your fashion sense today has led so beautifully into a listener's question.

[00:01:03] So, Stefania has written to us either by writing to Gillian at trans-ox.co.uk or Gillian Russell 77 at Yahoo.com

[00:01:12] and has said, how do I find my style?

[00:01:15] Have you any recommendations? I'm a little bit older

[00:01:18] and I've been wearing things which people have been telling me are not age appropriate.

[00:01:23] So, I thought that was quite an interesting question and we could maybe have a little chew around that

[00:01:29] because I think first thing I'd say is whose view is age appropriate about?

[00:01:36] I mean, you know, I think we have to... I often think it's about being context appropriate.

[00:01:41] But anyway, how did you find your luck, Jenny? How did you first start thinking about this?

[00:01:46] Well, most of my looks are sort of stumble through the wardrobe and see what comes out the other side

[00:01:50] but I think there is a point on that.

[00:01:52] I think I've seen it referred to as when you sort of a baby trans, when you first transition

[00:01:56] and you're trying to find your luck.

[00:01:59] I certainly... I think when I first transitioned, because I hadn't had that time to learn what worked for me,

[00:02:06] I'd either wear something that really was maybe too short.

[00:02:09] I've worn skirts that really I look back and think why was wearing something that short

[00:02:12] with my build that didn't really work or something that was maybe over the top

[00:02:17] and almost too formal.

[00:02:19] I remember going with a first founder sort of support group

[00:02:24] and we went out for a night in Birmingham for the first night out ever

[00:02:28] and they were all dressed up for clubbing and I was dressed up for...

[00:02:30] I don't know, the office or something.

[00:02:32] I just looked so out of place because I just didn't really have a handle

[00:02:35] on what women do in certain circumstances, that context you talked about.

[00:02:41] So I certainly I think struggle for that for a bit

[00:02:44] and I did think I've settled on I think what tends to suit me the best

[00:02:49] if that could be the best way of putting it.

[00:02:52] That doesn't say I don't make mistakes because every woman does something at times.

[00:02:56] You know, how about you?

[00:02:59] Is it something you...

[00:03:00] It's not to me you always have very stylish chills.

[00:03:02] I don't really see...

[00:03:03] You see, it's really weird isn't it?

[00:03:05] Because I think I remember years ago when I was first looking at Transmission

[00:03:10] and I went to a support group and what I was told,

[00:03:14] which I thought was quite interesting as a trans woman,

[00:03:16] was that some people become really girly girl when they first start out

[00:03:20] and they sort of over accentuate the girliness

[00:03:22] because actually it's such a joy just to be able to wear all the things

[00:03:26] that you've seen and such like...

[00:03:28] And for me it wasn't about being age specific,

[00:03:30] it was about being context specific.

[00:03:32] A bit like you when you went out in Birmingham.

[00:03:34] So I find I have always worked in very formal structures

[00:03:38] and in formal business settings.

[00:03:41] So I find sort of just being grungy and flopping around the garden the hardest thing.

[00:03:46] So a bit like you, if I go out or if I tend to go to work or whatever,

[00:03:49] I tend to wear something that's a bit more formal.

[00:03:52] And I find I'm usually overdressed wherever I go,

[00:03:56] not in terms of having too many clothes on,

[00:03:58] but usually having too many of the smart clothes on.

[00:04:01] But actually as time's gone on, I just have realised that that's who I am

[00:04:05] and I don't really care what other people think in terms of being age appropriate.

[00:04:09] I mean, I'm a bit older.

[00:04:10] So if I suddenly was skipping around at a leopard print,

[00:04:15] you know, eight inch heels and God knows what else,

[00:04:18] you know, I'm not sure I can actually wear them anymore, even though I've got them.

[00:04:21] I definitely don't think I can wear them

[00:04:23] and I don't think I'd find a place where to wear them.

[00:04:25] But I think I think part of this is actually just finding your style

[00:04:29] by just buying stuff, especially from vintage or secondhand shops

[00:04:32] and such like charity shops.

[00:04:34] And then, you know, if they don't work, wash them, take them back.

[00:04:38] And the thing I found best of all,

[00:04:40] if you haven't got a female friend who helps you on this,

[00:04:43] it's just to sit in one of the big shopping centres

[00:04:45] and we've got a massive shopping centre near us

[00:04:47] and I frequently just get coffee, go and sit in front of the Starbucks

[00:04:51] and just watch people go and buy.

[00:04:52] I love people watching anyway.

[00:04:54] But what you'll see is all styles, all ages, all shapes, all fashions.

[00:05:00] And, you know, especially if it's like a Starbucks or something,

[00:05:04] maybe in a town centre, you'll see office wear, you'll see,

[00:05:07] you know, evening wear, you'll see it all in front of you.

[00:05:10] And some of it is about looking at what people your age are wearing

[00:05:15] and just seeing what they're doing, what they're wearing, what they think.

[00:05:18] Not because you want to conform, but just actually because it's

[00:05:21] it gives you some clues.

[00:05:23] And then, of course, the next thing you've got to do is,

[00:05:24] you know, face the ordeal of shopping itself.

[00:05:28] But I don't know how did you that's how I do it.

[00:05:30] Yeah, I mean, it's no one thinks who agrees.

[00:05:33] That's right. I mean, it's context of I don't think I necessarily

[00:05:36] people watch the extent, but I got a sense.

[00:05:40] I mean, you know, I'm just thinking about in the sort of nearly 20 years

[00:05:43] since our transition, I've seen I've definitely seen those changes

[00:05:46] in styles and I've adopted with them.

[00:05:48] I remember when Boho was quite cool, everybody was in long dresses

[00:05:51] and some Boho was tight chic and then celebrities in trousers.

[00:05:55] Somebody's in dress right now.

[00:05:56] It seems to be quite a mix of people have women in dresses

[00:06:00] and skirts and trowel and lots of trousers and things.

[00:06:03] So it goes through those phases.

[00:06:05] I mean, we haven't talked previously about actually everybody's in flats now.

[00:06:08] Nobody's wearing heels, which for the sake of our feet is a great thing.

[00:06:12] So I certainly I certainly look back on some pictures

[00:06:16] and see actually I wasn't really quite sure what was doing.

[00:06:20] But I did I don't think it was I did want to just fit in.

[00:06:23] I did still want to fit in.

[00:06:24] So I wanted to look like a proper where I've where I definitely struggled

[00:06:30] is it's going to something for really formal and dressy.

[00:06:34] I really never I mean, I've done to refuse like a ward things

[00:06:37] just with the NHS and things and I've you know,

[00:06:40] where you've proper dressy up dressy, right?

[00:06:43] And I've never I don't think I've ever felt like a properly nailed

[00:06:46] an outfit for it that I've really been happy with afterwards.

[00:06:49] And that's because I'm big as well.

[00:06:51] So I'm limited on my choices.

[00:06:53] But yeah, I think I think you have to find one what you're comfortable with.

[00:06:57] There are there are things that can help if you haven't got shape.

[00:07:00] There are things you know, if you if you want to wear skirts and dressy

[00:07:02] things that flare out a bit will help with the shape and take the

[00:07:05] you know, the things that you can learn to take the the eye off your shoulders.

[00:07:09] If your shoulders are wide, you know, the things you can do that.

[00:07:12] I mean, you know, you know, I mean, not having that shape

[00:07:15] sort of straight and pencil skirts would work for me and things like that.

[00:07:18] So you can learn what sort of works works for you.

[00:07:23] And and then it's just getting comfortable in your own skin a little bit, I think.

[00:07:26] Yeah, I think if you can be comfortable, you know, in terms of having

[00:07:30] a degree of confidence because you won't, you know, you won't always get it right.

[00:07:34] But you will eventually, I think settle into what works for you.

[00:07:38] And and that's good.

[00:07:40] I mean, you're right.

[00:07:41] Shopping itself can be a challenge.

[00:07:44] Actually, good.

[00:07:45] I mean, I actually found it helpful.

[00:07:47] Because I remember when I first started shopping, I tended to have to

[00:07:50] shop in Evans, which is for larger sizes, you know.

[00:07:55] And I remember I found an Evans local to me

[00:07:59] and go in and the shop assistant says, help me, you know, so they would help me.

[00:08:02] You know, I just asked, you know, I was looking for this, you know.

[00:08:05] In fact, I remember actually going first, you know, one point going in there.

[00:08:10] Before a transition, so I wasn't I was addressed and asking them, you know,

[00:08:14] I was looking for an outfit.

[00:08:15] They helped me, you know, they were real.

[00:08:17] They were really accepting and welcoming and never forget them.

[00:08:20] And they really helped, you know, in terms of suggestions and things.

[00:08:23] But whether that's so easy now in the current climate, whether that's I don't

[00:08:27] I just don't know.

[00:08:28] I mean, I was lucky to find, you know, a small branch

[00:08:33] that the people that got to know me and, you know, and help me in that respect.

[00:08:39] But also friends, you know, my women friends helping with

[00:08:43] those fashion ideas and things like that.

[00:08:45] You know, you know, often say if we're going somewhere, you know,

[00:08:48] because when we do that, you what you're wearing, you're going,

[00:08:51] you're going to dress up your way in a skirt or is it just like jeans or trousers?

[00:08:55] Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:55] Because you also want to tend to look similar.

[00:08:59] So I found that really helpful, you know.

[00:09:02] But I think it does take a bit of time to feel

[00:09:04] I think quite settled in what works for me.

[00:09:07] I don't think I dress well, but I just dress what works best for me.

[00:09:12] And and fashion faux pas, because that's the second part of this

[00:09:15] question from Stephanie, she obviously wants to spill a dirt on

[00:09:19] misspeak, maybe to make her feel better.

[00:09:22] So that's not bad one.

[00:09:23] I remember you falling over once and an inappropriate out.

[00:09:26] Now, that was a fashion that was a clumsy faux pas.

[00:09:28] My boots fell out.

[00:09:30] I do remember one Unison conference very early on wearing

[00:09:34] a pretty short denim skirt with like a frayed hem and some stripes at the side.

[00:09:41] Maybe quite eighties.

[00:09:43] That really didn't work for me.

[00:09:44] It really not built for that.

[00:09:46] And six foot two side of a house.

[00:09:49] I remember going I remember going to I do that one of the sport groups I had.

[00:09:54] This is very early on in my transition and wearing this.

[00:09:58] So it was a Christmas party, but really over the top long, almost ball gown

[00:10:02] and and and big high heels.

[00:10:06] And then I remember how to fill the car up

[00:10:07] and it just looked so incongruous me.

[00:10:10] That wasn't me best.

[00:10:11] I mean, I like the dress, but it was a bit over the top for a Christmas party.

[00:10:15] It was more

[00:10:17] sort of fancy garland or something.

[00:10:20] So I've definitely made them those those mistakes I must admit.

[00:10:27] But yeah, I think the thing I found is this this ability to

[00:10:32] have have and I read loads of, you know, fashion magazines,

[00:10:36] women's magazines or whatever, you know, just because they give you advice

[00:10:39] and all the advice to give is the same, isn't it?

[00:10:40] It's about having layers.

[00:10:42] It's about it's about having basics, good basics in your wardrobe

[00:10:46] that you can and what I find fascinating is this ability to just dress

[00:10:49] something up or down so you can wear you can change from a pair of jeans

[00:10:53] into a skirt, your top stays the same.

[00:10:55] And you just put a different jewelry on, freshen your makeup and away you go.

[00:10:59] And I suppose it's transmasked people have it the other way around.

[00:11:02] I mean, it's it's it's actually quite I would say quite easy to address

[00:11:07] in a masculine fashion, but then I can't remember sort of doing it now that much.

[00:11:12] I don't know.

[00:11:13] I think on one hand you think, well, men's fashion is inevitably simpler

[00:11:19] as a concept is less sort of different options in many ways.

[00:11:25] But how easy it is.

[00:11:26] And again, you know, you're still facing the same thing about your

[00:11:28] what you shape and how that how that works for you

[00:11:32] and getting that right in the context.

[00:11:36] So yeah, it'd be interesting to basically

[00:11:37] it'd be interesting to think because assumption is maybe is a little better

[00:11:43] simple, but that's supposed to come in from our biases as to

[00:11:47] age and transplant.

[00:11:49] You know, we've been through that.

[00:11:50] I guess I'm 27.

[00:11:52] I can't imagine you've ever made any fashion gas.

[00:11:55] Jill, you just are too stylish.

[00:11:57] I just probably think I have.

[00:12:00] I probably have.

[00:12:02] I have probably like you worn highly inappropriately short skirts

[00:12:05] and especially at the beginning and especially, I suppose, when I was younger,

[00:12:11] you know, before we talked many times about the fact that

[00:12:16] you know, we come pre-generation where being a this would transvestite is

[00:12:19] was was the thing, wasn't it?

[00:12:22] Because we were all experimenting and it wasn't as easy to do this.

[00:12:25] And I suppose then there was often a sexual connotation with transvestitism.

[00:12:30] So often the place the only places you could go were places like clubs

[00:12:33] or, you know, places where people would hang out.

[00:12:37] I mean, I remember years and years ago, they used to be an organisation

[00:12:40] in Milton Keynes that used to have a massive TV night.

[00:12:43] Some people used to go there.

[00:12:45] Pink punters. I've been to Pink Punters.

[00:12:47] Yeah, I've heard of that.

[00:12:48] I don't know. Yeah, I've been to Pink Punters.

[00:12:51] But that was well after transition.

[00:12:52] And I find it.

[00:12:54] I didn't find I think it was later on.

[00:12:56] So I mean, I think if you talk in sort of this was in the 2000s,

[00:13:00] this was so it's changed.

[00:13:02] But I think if you're talking about earlier than the 90s,

[00:13:04] it would have been very different.

[00:13:05] Yeah, maybe cohort there.

[00:13:07] But yeah, I remember that stayed in the hotel opposite.

[00:13:09] And then yeah, I think there's some pictures somewhere.

[00:13:13] I mean, a lot of these places, but a lot of these places are

[00:13:16] the preserver people who are trans and expert and sort of experimenting

[00:13:20] and, you know, finding that questioning bit and sort of, you know,

[00:13:23] experience the experience that euphoria of being just in the place

[00:13:27] where you can do yourself for a little while.

[00:13:28] That's and that's and that's often something that's useful to do.

[00:13:31] And then of course, you can what you'll do is when you go to those places,

[00:13:33] you'll do you'll see the wild variety of clothes, everything from someone

[00:13:37] who's quite grungy through to someone who's in high,

[00:13:40] you know, high fetish wear.

[00:13:42] And and that gives you comfort because what it shows you is,

[00:13:45] you know, all better off really.

[00:13:47] And that's quite nice in the whole community that there's this.

[00:13:51] I was I was in a group quite recently.

[00:13:52] The runner group and there's a few people in it who one, but one who's quite young.

[00:13:56] And I was in absolute amazement all at them strutting around

[00:14:01] a pair of white leather boots, which were over the knee.

[00:14:04] And they must have had a five or six inch heel

[00:14:06] and they were wandering around the place, sleeping around all over the shop.

[00:14:09] And it was like, you know, I couldn't and I wouldn't.

[00:14:13] And I certainly shouldn't.

[00:14:14] But my God, I wish I could.

[00:14:16] I was so pleased for them being able to to be able to rock that look.

[00:14:20] And I think that's it. I think sometimes it's just sometimes

[00:14:24] when you're trans, it releases something from inside of yourself, doesn't it?

[00:14:28] It releases something that's been locked up over all these years.

[00:14:31] And that might be represented in fashion or it may not be.

[00:14:35] Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

[00:14:36] Because, I mean, you know, sort of, you know, back when I was growing up

[00:14:40] and it was all a secret and I was stressing to get trying to say that

[00:14:44] there wasn't that, you know, you're not trying to fit in.

[00:14:46] I mean, I've got much more enjoyment from fitting in and nailing.

[00:14:50] You know, nailing my look that I look like all the other girls

[00:14:53] I'm going out with, you know, the cisgender girls, my friends, you know.

[00:14:56] I loved that part when I actually got things right and I felt part of a gang,

[00:15:00] you know, a felt part of something rather than doing something, you know,

[00:15:04] when you when you do when you dress it in secret, for instance,

[00:15:07] that's there's no context.

[00:15:09] Are you just behind the door?

[00:15:10] So it is it is a it is a very different thing.

[00:15:13] And I so much more enjoyed it when I got settled into being a woman

[00:15:16] and settled into to, you know, being with my friends

[00:15:20] and being part of that and feeling I belonged in that.

[00:15:23] And the part of that was my expression.

[00:15:25] So I remember going to that nine of the pink poems.

[00:15:29] I enjoyed it because I was meeting people I knew through blogging

[00:15:31] back in the day we were blogged and we met.

[00:15:35] But it was that company a lot to particularly the atmosphere itself

[00:15:39] because I was already transitioned.

[00:15:40] So I was already socialised as a woman in without going to a sort

[00:15:45] of specialist night if you want to see that way.

[00:15:47] But I think it is it is it is interested in finding you.

[00:15:51] I'm definitely no growing up and when I was in secret

[00:15:54] and some of the stuff you you experiment with, you know,

[00:15:57] when you're trying to find your identity when you're a

[00:16:00] you know, a late teenager or something or I mean, I still I still

[00:16:04] the one thing I still should or at is

[00:16:07] and I still have this memory of an episode of Blue Peter where they

[00:16:11] have some reason they took a sweatshirt, right?

[00:16:15] I made a short skirt and a pair of leggings out of this is debatey stuff.

[00:16:19] I think it was like cutting the shoulder to cut off the arms to me.

[00:16:25] And I'm making this because it's but gosh, I would have looked

[00:16:28] a stranger, a strange genius about them.

[00:16:31] But yeah, I think I think I think I think it is interesting.

[00:16:34] But I think it feels a lot easier now to find find your way in style

[00:16:38] than certainly when I start it.

[00:16:40] I mean, you know, when I meet trans people, they all seem to be

[00:16:44] well put, you know, they seem to have it sorted far more than I did.

[00:16:47] I mean, you know, I don't know.

[00:16:50] You know, I'm always extremely proud of people in the community

[00:16:53] who are further ahead of me or they've got a younger and they're

[00:16:57] and they're doing what they need to do and they've had the chance to do it.

[00:16:59] And I think they've not grown up with some of the restrictions we've had.

[00:17:02] So I mean, the thing is, we talk about fashion now in a way

[00:17:05] it's totally different to fashion in the 16th, 17th and 80s

[00:17:07] because fashion was different.

[00:17:08] I mean, it was interesting.

[00:17:10] I was watching Do you remember Life on Mars?

[00:17:13] That program of John Simon.

[00:17:15] And you look back at attitudes in those days around women and such like

[00:17:19] and you look at what people were wearing, what they're doing.

[00:17:22] It's pretty representative at the time.

[00:17:24] I mean, it's quite eye-wateringly shocking when you watch it now.

[00:17:27] But it is interesting seeing the way that fashion has changed since those days.

[00:17:30] And, you know, the idea of fashion, international fashion,

[00:17:33] then there's a real sort of mix now, isn't there?

[00:17:36] You know, I remember years ago, I think I can't remember exactly when it was,

[00:17:40] but women started wearing black tights or something because before that

[00:17:45] they'd always worn just one colour and then everyone started wearing different.

[00:17:49] Obviously, something had happened.

[00:17:50] I don't know, manufacturing process had changed or something.

[00:17:53] And of course, as time rolls on, you'll see all these different

[00:17:56] factions coming and I think vintage and charity shops are great.

[00:18:00] I mean, I also have to say, you know, buying online and getting stuff

[00:18:04] and sending it back is no hard thing.

[00:18:06] But a lot of places now are getting wised to that and they're charging to send.

[00:18:11] Yeah, I think I mean, I do my shopping online now.

[00:18:14] If I ever to buy anything, it's just easier.

[00:18:17] I mean, I think so many people are.

[00:18:20] But yeah, it can be hit or miss.

[00:18:23] I mean, it never quite looks like what it does on the web page.

[00:18:27] But yeah, I think you're right.

[00:18:29] I think it's fascinating how it's changed from growing up.

[00:18:33] And as I say, being like you were saying, as a.

[00:18:37] As a trans kid or a trans teenager, knowing that I should be a girl

[00:18:41] and seeing these great, you know, seeing, you know, certainly in the 80s,

[00:18:45] fabulous changes in fashion in the 80s and not being able to be part of that.

[00:18:51] And then now it seems so much more hundred now.

[00:18:55] It's 20 years.

[00:18:57] Yeah, a little bit.

[00:18:59] But yeah, I mean, it's not something I think about that much.

[00:19:02] But I don't think about clothes anywhere near as much as you used to.

[00:19:05] I mean, when a first transition, it was every day, I was I used to drive

[00:19:08] off mad trying to make sure I didn't wear the same outfit twice to work

[00:19:12] and over the top over thinking it all the time and thinking that a lot.

[00:19:16] That it's not something I really think about that much now.

[00:19:20] Yeah, after a while, it closed just becomes something that could be

[00:19:22] well done there, that keep you warm or keep you cool.

[00:19:25] That means it's nice to when you go out, but I don't go out.

[00:19:28] But, you know, I'm sure you're the same, Jill.

[00:19:31] You really like to get for if it's an occasion to get dressed up for that.

[00:19:35] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:37] I totally agree with you.

[00:19:39] You're great. I'm honest.

[00:19:39] If I knew there's some thoughts for you, I'm not sure that counts.

[00:19:42] But I think the thing I would say to you is

[00:19:44] enjoy being age inappropriate because it's all part of it.

[00:19:48] It's all part of learning.

[00:19:49] Yeah, it is, isn't it?

[00:19:50] And I think it is when people are telling you it's age

[00:19:53] and appropriate, one of the things you've got to watch out is just who,

[00:19:55] you know, what are the motives of the people tell you that if they're

[00:19:57] saying it out of love and just, you know, part of giving you some wise advice,

[00:20:01] that's fine. But, you know, some people can be a bit nasty and a bit mean

[00:20:04] or they can actually mean something else.

[00:20:06] But I think it's I think dress for context rather than for age.

[00:20:10] And then I think you'll enjoy yourself because if you wander around with

[00:20:12] you look at cisgendered women, you know, on the whole, they just

[00:20:16] they were just wet, you know, sort of, wear stuff to to be functional.

[00:20:20] And I think that's great.

[00:20:21] Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:22] You're absolutely right.

[00:20:23] Let's not even talk about shoes.

[00:20:24] I mean, my God, how many pairs of shoes have I got?

[00:20:28] Yeah, we know you love your shoes, Jill.

[00:20:30] And shoes and handbags.

[00:20:32] I mean, you know, this is a I think I might have a problem.

[00:20:36] It's not about problems, worse problems that I've done.

[00:20:38] That's true. That's true, but I have some of those too.

[00:20:41] Well, look on that note, hopefully we've offered some randomised

[00:20:44] gossiping around.

[00:20:45] Yeah, we are the Trinian Susanna for the for the generation.

[00:20:50] But that doesn't care.

[00:20:52] For the Zoomers.

[00:20:53] Yeah, I don't think we quite are.

[00:20:56] We do our best.

[00:20:58] We do. All right.

[00:20:59] So next week, see you soon.

[00:21:01] You take care. Take care. Bye.

[00:21:07] Thanks for listening to this episode of Trans Vox.

[00:21:10] It's been a joy to have you with us.

[00:21:12] If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at

[00:21:18] gillianarttransvox.com.uk.

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[00:21:23] Patreon and go to Page Trans Vox.

[00:21:26] And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.

[00:21:30] And, Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number

[00:21:32] of episodes, which one have you chosen?

[00:21:34] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a

[00:21:38] charity that provides support and counselling to trans

[00:21:41] people, non-binary people and their friends and their

[00:21:44] families across the UK.

[00:21:46] An amazing charity doing some amazing work.

[00:21:48] Really important.

[00:21:49] So please, if you can give.

[00:21:51] Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond

[00:21:53] Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.

[00:21:57] And but as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution

[00:21:59] to what we're doing, because we love to help the

[00:22:01] people who help us again, if you've got ideas for the

[00:22:05] show, things you'd like to ask us, questions,

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[00:22:11] it all into Gillian at transvox.co.uk.

[00:22:15] Until the next time.

[00:22:17] Goodbye.

[00:22:17] Bye bye.