This week Jenny and Gillian talk about the power and upside of our community and the joy and euphoria of transition. In an increasingly turbulent and hostile world, it’s important to realise that we still have choices about our own metal wellbeing and the support that is avilable to and for us. They hope you will find this light-hearted episode useful in a world of what can seem like, toxicity and gloom.
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[00:00:08] Hello and welcome back to Transvox. So how are you today, Jen? I'm not too bad at all, Gill. How are you? I'm good. And how did the show jumping go this week? I gather you were out on the, between the, you know, out in the downs. Yeah, you know, I seem to have lost the knack a little bit. I don't know why. Maybe take a horse. Pardon? Maybe take the horse.
[00:00:35] Well, I think that's probably the key early, isn't it? I mean, just me trotting up and trying to climb over fences. It was an approach, but didn't seem, you know, and anyway, if they need a horse for me, they probably need a shire horse anyway. So, which aren't very good at jumping. Don't say that. Now, there's a terrible, I have a terrible joke about horses, but I shall save it for later. Okay. I don't know what to say to that.
[00:01:01] Have you actually seen, there was something I saw the other day about some sort of exhibition of Frankie de Tori and they have a special thing where you can practice jumping on and off a horse like Frankie de Tori. Oh yeah, he does something when he's, when he's, when he's with a race, he jumps off a horse. Yeah. It's called dismounting in the trade. Is that what it is? Is that a technical term? It just seems... It is funny, isn't it? How they call it dismounting.
[00:01:25] You're not de-mounting. Because it's funny, there's an American phrase that I find highly amusing, which is, you know, when you get off a plane, it's called de-planing. Yeah, they do call it de-planing, don't they? So why not de-horsing or de-bussing? They could do. I mean, that's the vaguest of English language, I guess, but they're dismounting rather than de-mounting. I suppose over here we talk proper English-like. Hmm, or something. Anyway... Actually, I think I'm... Go on, I think I'm making everything closer to original English than ours. I think ours is...
[00:01:54] Yes, there's something in that. Yeah, there is something in that. Yeah, there's something about them that's further from the center of culture, the slower the language evolves. And, you know, America's a long way off. Hmm. Anyway... I'm just tempting you there to throw yourself into that. Shall we do a whole podcast about horses and the differences between American and English? It is quite fascinating. Or do something else. There are so many memes on the internet about the difference between... Well, we're supposed to be doing Star Trek today. Anyway, and I'm very excited about doing Star Trek.
[00:02:24] But, but, but, but... Before we do the start... Launch into the Star Trek thing. We've done a few sort of episodes around emotions. We've done... We have. ...fear and anger and grief and... All sorts of other bits and pieces. But, you know, you said something to me, which is, well, why don't we talk about joy and happiness and... ...general joie de vivre and va-va-voom and all those sorts of things. So, well, why not, then? Well, I thought...
[00:02:51] I did think the last two podcasts have been a little bit angst ridden. And it has been a good tough couple of weeks. And it is easy. It is easy to forget. So the more joyous aspects, I think, of, of our lives, of being trans, I think. So I thought it was something interesting. I don't know if I'd go as far to say I've ever had va-va-voom, but I think I've had a bit of trans joy somewhere in my life, I guess. I love you. So, well, let's start at the very beginning, then.
[00:03:20] So you've often talked about this idea at the very beginning of transition of this idea of euphoria. And I mean, that's quite... So unpack that a bit for us. How was that for you? Oh, God, that's really interesting because it's very difficult to remember back because it feels like so long ago. But it was an... I think it was an element of... There was excitement. I remember that first day when I went into work.
[00:03:47] First time really being authentically me full time was going into work because... And I remember that they were so excited about it. And, you know, it felt so freeing to be able to do it. And I had so much positive affirmation beforehand when I'd been talking to people about it. So I think that's what made it, that event, joyful. As stressful and exciting as it was, there was an element of joy and euphoria.
[00:04:16] And I do remember that. And I do remember all those steps leading up to transition of making small gains, doing things, pushing yourself, being out there when I thought I never could. It was a bit like a drug. Everything positively reinforced that this was the right path for me. Yeah. So there was definitely an element of euphoria. I use that term because people talk about gender dysphoria, don't they, in terms of a diagnosis. Yeah. And I think that's the other side.
[00:04:44] So being unhappy with who you are and then being happy with who you are because you've transitioned, you know? Yes. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because actually, the jury's out in terms of how many emotions are actually on. It's a very contentious subject, you know, between six and eight. And there's an idea that there are positive emotions. Some psychologists say there are, some say there aren't. Barbara Fredrickson, who wrote the book on positivity, which actually affected the range of Americans,
[00:05:10] positive thinking, used to say that the purpose of positive emotions is to build resources, or broaden our perspective in useful ways. But what we know, you know, a lot about positive emotion is that you've got tons of serotonin racking through your system, lots of dopamine. You know, it's a joy. It's a fantastic physiological reaction to be joyful. And some of it comes from our thoughts. And actually, we can sort of manage those thoughts so we can manage the extent to which we are joyful.
[00:05:38] And I think that's really important, because I think there's a lot of times we forget that the underlying cognitive position of generating joy is to have positive thoughts about what we are. And we can actually stimulate our anxiety and fears and such like. And we also can stimulate our own joy in this. And actually, we can focus on the the wins we're having, rather than the losses we lose. You know, you can talk about what you gain rather than what you lose.
[00:06:07] You can talk about, you know, the steps that you've made, rather than steps that you haven't made. And I think there's this interesting cognitive position which allows for the creation of joy. And I get your point about euphoria. But actually, I've found a degree of real positivity. And, you know, I'm very, I'm very pleased when someone halfway through, you know, will just, because I have very low expectations of people, just gender me correctly, call me by my right name.
[00:06:37] I think it's a lovely thing. It's very nice. You know, I get a tiny little kick from that, you know. I still get it. But 15 years later, there's part of my synapse in my brain when I get correctly gendered, which I do 99.9% of the time. But then you don't often hear yourself gendered because it's usually in third person. Yeah. Or there's a tiny bit of slight affirmation and joy, which I think is lovely.
[00:07:05] Although it'd be, in some respects, be nice if, when that goes, because that's maybe truly when I've cast off my old identity internally, truly at some point. But that's a human thing. I mean, we, being seen, being heard, being recognized is a point of serotonin release. And that's just a human response. So, so I would encourage, the thing I find quite interesting is that you'll talk to people and say, oh, I've had a, I've had a, you know, a positive hit today.
[00:07:32] So the counter is one, one thing, but then I've had a negative hit. And that's counted as like a minus 10 million hits. So you need another 10 million and one things to just get back to, to where you are. And I think it's about learning how to balance those two sides of it. Because if you, if you acknowledge that the hit is temporary, transitory and, you know, just nice, then a negative statement can, can be treated the same way. And I don't think people think that through them. Yes. Yeah.
[00:08:01] I certainly, I certainly can get to relate to that. But that thing you said about, you know, now when people get your name right, Jill, when people refer to you correctly, have been seen is why it's, is why it's so important when people talk about pronouns and things like that. It is why, because that helps, you know, every time it happens, it chips away a bit of that. But those, all those years of not being, you know, authentic, not being seen.
[00:08:28] I mean, I've said, and I've probably said it in this podcast before, but I say lots of times, if I could just meet that shop assistant from Tesco's back in 2004, you'd talk to it at one o'clock in the morning that referred to me as Madam and she to a fellow shop assistant. And that was the first time anybody had seen me for who I was. You know, they did it naturally. They probably never thought much of it.
[00:08:54] I'd love to meet that person again because they've probably had as much impact on my life as almost anybody. Yeah. And that's a fleeting encounter in a supermarket in the middle of the night. So, you know, I went to work, you know, out of the supermarket smiling, you know, to myself, you know, because I'm full of doubt and fear about these exertions and trying to get out of the world.
[00:09:16] And then when you're seen, you know, and there's so much, there's so many people I wish on my journey that don't know that they were part of my journey. Shop assistant, the shop manager at Evans Women's Fashion Wear in Newcastle under Lime, where I first went and sort of did shopping for myself and realised, you know, actually before I transitioned, but took me under her wing and helped me, you know, whenever I'd go in.
[00:09:44] Was really kind, you know, helping me, you know, choose the right things and stuff. I'd love to meet her again. She's forgotten about me, I'm sure, but joyful. And I think this is that we have to recognise, and we often talk about this and often put it on a positive note. And that's partly for me because A, I need it, B, that is me. But there is so much to celebrate, isn't there? You know, you can celebrate that the vast majority of people every single day, whether at work or wherever,
[00:10:12] are positive through to not the slightest bit interested, which is just as good. And it's, you know, the minority, the haters are, you know, the minority of negative people and haters are, it's a small, small group. It may be growing, but it is still small. It is tiny, and it's getting that and that. It is tiny. I mean, you know, I don't want to get into the downside. These things, you know, some of the negative stuff is starting to increase,
[00:10:39] but the vast majority of people are positive who I've come into contact with. I can't think of anybody else. And just this week, I mean, just watching, because I've ended up watching Big Brother that's been rebooted. Oh, yeah. I just saw watching that, you know, just in the background. And there's a trans woman on there, didn't go in saying that they were trans,
[00:11:03] but came out and explained the second day and seems to be perfectly accepted. And, you know, there seems to be, you know, it's lovely to see that being just nothing, you know, none of the stuff that's going on in the outside world sort of thing. And I thought it was really interesting. That filled me with a bit of joy to see people, when I see people on the television being treated,
[00:11:29] respected for who they are, you know, that fills me with joy. When I saw Mae Martin, who is a comedian that won Taskmaster, who's non-binary, would be referred to as they or them all through the programme with no force, with no bother. That filled me with joy. Yeah. And I think it's something we forget, isn't it? And the thing I note is that if there is a degree of increasing hostility,
[00:11:53] I actually see an increase in the amount of increasing support as well. I mean, it's interesting how many people are sort of talking about being stauncher, more loyal, more visible allies. And I think that's, you know, that's really interesting, because I think people realise if there's a sense of injustice, people do need to step up. And I've seen more proactive engagement from allies and such like.
[00:12:20] I think the whole country's got some cognitive dissonance at the moment. It seems to be saying one thing in the media and actually behaving differently in the vast majority of cases. And actually, I've always felt that people are generally nicer than most people are generally nice and accepting and, you know, want to be kind. I do tend to look at the world like that. But yeah, no, I think there's some, I don't know about you, but I think there's some amazing things about being trans.
[00:12:48] You know, would I have liked to have been born a cisgendered woman? I guess, maybe. I don't know. It's really difficult to remember. But there's certainly some amazing things about having lived a life almost in two parts like I've done. That's such an amazing gift in some other ways. It is quite funny, isn't it? Maybe this is a podcast from other days. I notice the difference now between, and maybe it's slightly unfair to say this,
[00:13:15] but I do notice the difference between what it was like being a male at work and how you're treated and how you're listened to and such like, and then being trans. Now, I don't know if that's because I'm trans or because I'm sort of more towards the female end of things, but I do find it fascinating. You know, you sort of discover that thing about manspreading and mansplaining and, you know, this sort of stuff about don't you worry about those sorts of things. And, you know, the need to pontificate and show off and preen
[00:13:44] and all that sort of stuff, which is quite fascinating. And, you know, the old thing in business, which is it's all about the sizzle and very little about the steak. So it's all about positioning and such like, unless you're in a restaurant, of course. I think both of us are naturally curious people, aren't they? And thirst for knowledge. I know you have a thirst for knowledge. I certainly do. And there is just something amazing about that. Maybe I'll reflect more on it when I've come to the end of my time,
[00:14:10] but about having lived that life, you know, there's definitely some downsides to it and there's definitely things which have been different, but also it's been amazing the experiences I've been able to have. And the people you meet. The things I've done because, you know, the opportunities I've had because I'm visibly trans that I probably would never have had. No. And the people we meet. I mean, I've met some remarkable people. And I've also met people I don't particularly like as well. And that's the normal spread of people.
[00:14:39] But it's a different culture of people and the sort of whole queer culture that's sometimes part of our world and the sort of neurodiversity that's part of our world. And the whole, you know, you're meeting a different structure of society that you would, it's sort of not even aware it was there to start off with. You know, you're suddenly meeting these different ideals and values and different people with different ways of looking at the world. I find it absolutely fascinating. Like you said, you've got a quest for curiosity.
[00:15:09] I think that's that thing, isn't it? You know, it's about not judging all the time and just seeking to find out a little bit more. No, you're absolutely right on that. And finding that community was joyful. Going back to the point, it was joyful. I remember, you know, back in the day attending a group in Derby for trans people. We didn't use the term trans back then. It was slightly different because it wasn't well used because we were just talking about early 2000s.
[00:15:38] But it was for trans people and we'd all meet up in this community centre in the middle of a housing estate and a bigger bunch of misfits in many ways, could you guess. But all of us there because we could be authentic for those few hours we were there in a group. And, you know, a chief executive was next to the mechanic, was next to, you know, a complete leveller because all of us were just finding a different path in life. It was brilliant times.
[00:16:06] Really miss, sort of miss that part of the community that isn't sort of there now that we've all moved online. I know you attend a group, don't you? You've got some somewhere. Is that right? Do you, is there something still going where you? Yeah, yeah, I think it's also, I think what's lovely about technology is that it removes that barrier of having to go out and meet people. And actually it's very, you know, you can almost, you could almost have a different online experience every night at the week in different parts of the country because it's not, you're no longer, you know, what's it called?
[00:16:36] Restricted to the geography. Yeah, that's true. Which I quite like. And I know you're down with Dak Hades and on Twitch and doing all that sort of stuff. Indeed. I think the TikTok channel you're thinking of doing would be exciting. I think you and I partying on down and doing some of those dances would be a thing of great. It would be something. It would be definitely something. Well, look, so I think the point is that sometimes we have to celebrate the wins.
[00:17:05] You know, we've got to celebrate those successes. It's nice, you know, when you're online or something on Facebook, whatever the social media channel is of choice, someone saying things like, hey, I've got my doctor's appointment, you know, or hey, I've been to my doctor and they've said I've approved for treatment, whatever it is. It's nice to be able to celebrate that with that person because, you know, otherwise it could be sort of clapping your hands on your own. And it's a shame, isn't it? Because we all need to share in people's wins and we all need to stand together when things get tough
[00:17:33] because strength comes from, you know, people in large numbers doing things together. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think it's hard in these times at the moment when we feel so undone to forget how there has been progress and to forget how much better, you know, things are than they were decades ago that we can actually be who we are. And you're right, and to not forget those moments of,
[00:18:02] I mean, there's so many, you know. Before I transitioned, I'd never look in the mirror and go, God, you look good. And that happens a bit. I mean, it doesn't happen every day these days, but, you know, getting your makeup right, having an outfit that works and you go, wow, going out for a night out as a woman, and far more joy than, you know, getting dolled up than previously where it was, you know, a pretty dull affair, you know? Yeah. Although I think that your roller skates that you're currently wearing with that outfit, that lounge cocktail dress
[00:18:31] is a bold fashion choice, it has to be said. It's definitely bold for work, but, you know, as I say, why not mix it up? If you've got style, why not share it? So I think you're right. Let's celebrate the allies we have, celebrate the successes we have, celebrate other people's successes. And recognize that, you know, we do have the ability to cognitively help ourselves as well as other people, don't we? Indeed. Is that the ice cream van in that's coming? No, that's my phone that's on the side of the room and I'm never going to get there
[00:19:01] quick enough. I know. I did used to have an ice cream. Someone online telling you something exciting. You know, I did used to have an ice cream van for three weeks. Didn't you? There's a story we should do a podcast about. What, ice cream vans? I don't know. Yeah, I drove an ice cream van for three weeks. Did you? Yeah, sold ice creams. Made very little money at it. I was going to say. It is one of the jobs I've had. It is. We must touch on that one time, but it always is one of my favourite catchphrases, the old ice cream phrase. What's that?
[00:19:30] Often licked, never beaten. Fair enough. And before we say anything else that might get us into trouble, I think on that note, I shall say ta-ra and I'll see you next week. Thank you, Jill, and thank you for a joyous podcast. I really enjoyed it. See you all next week. See you again. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us,
[00:20:00] you can contact us at and if you'd like to support the work we do, please go to Patreon and go to page Transvox. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families
[00:20:29] across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work, really important. So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brick baths, feel free to send it all in
[00:20:58] at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.