Transvox - Mermaids - Transactual, the RCGP and the Cass Report

[00:00:00] Hi and welcome back to Transvox and welcome back to Jenny. How are you this week, Jenny?

[00:00:05] I'm very well, thanks, Gill. How are you?

[00:00:07] I'm good. I'm in a bit of a serious mood this week because we've got some big weighty issues to discuss that's been in the press.

[00:00:14] So there's no talk of sparkles or frippery for the moment, if that's all right with you.

[00:00:20] Oh, we can be very serious, can't we? I'm sure.

[00:00:23] Yeah.

[00:00:23] But no minds to it.

[00:00:24] Look, there's two big items and one which is a, I would say, is a pretty big, good news story.

[00:00:30] It all revolves around the findings that the regulators come up with regard to Mermaids, the trans charity.

[00:00:36] So I just wondered what your initial reaction was to this news that, as reported on the BBC website, that Mermaids was mismanaged.

[00:00:44] And on the second website's pink news, that it did not provide medical advice to kids.

[00:00:49] So it's interesting in a way it's been phrased, but first initial reactions.

[00:00:53] Yeah. So it's interesting because I think there have been a number of questions over Mermaids.

[00:00:58] I've always been very positive about because they find work in a very distinct area that no other charity is doing, certainly to that extent, with young trans people.

[00:01:08] And there was a number, I think, question marks over Mermaids.

[00:01:12] I think there'd have been an issue of a trustee that was certainly inappropriate to have been a trustee, I think.

[00:01:19] And that, I think that might have made them news.

[00:01:21] I think the chief executive stood down at one point.

[00:01:23] And there was issues about their relationship with the Tavistock, I think, and a number of, and an issue about some of the advice they were giving out.

[00:01:31] And so I knew that this was all in the background.

[00:01:34] Now, I came up on the BBC website and I read the article, which headlined about mismanagement.

[00:01:40] So they've been criticised, it seems to me, some governance mismanagement when they had an influx of funds, because they had a significant influx of funds at one particular time.

[00:01:51] So they've been criticised as that, but the other elements, so they've been criticised over the management, which I'm not going to defend whether they did that or not.

[00:01:58] But the other elements were found not to have happened, that they were giving advice out that they shouldn't have been, because they've been criticised for giving medical advice, how they weren't doing that.

[00:02:08] They were giving proper advice.

[00:02:10] For instance, I think one of the issues was about binders for young trans men, and that they were giving appropriate advice how to do it safely for us, which I think is important.

[00:02:23] It's interesting, the article headlined the negative part, but a lot of it was found, I think, in their favour.

[00:02:30] But of course, it gets spun in different ways, doesn't it?

[00:02:33] Yeah.

[00:02:33] I think it's interesting, isn't it, because mermaids, because the deal with trans kids have always been at the forefront of both the vanguard for the community moving forward, but also possibly the most at-risk charity.

[00:02:44] And I think it started in 1999, it's really gone ahead, it's really been very forward in the way it thinks.

[00:02:52] And the regulator found no evidence, as you say, that it provided any medical advice, which would have been outside its charitable purpose, made no medical referables without the approval of a parent.

[00:03:03] It didn't have any inappropriate influence or ties to guides at the Taviscock and Portman, or private medical practices, or that it failed to have appropriate safeguarding in place.

[00:03:14] So those four things, which are massive things, were all, they were found in favour of those things, because they were found to be not negligent, not incompetent in any of those things.

[00:03:25] What they were found negligent in a little bit was actually some management recruitment of trustees.

[00:03:30] One trustee was found actually to have links to, or had attended a very inappropriate conference, I think to do with paedophilia many years ago, which is ridiculous.

[00:03:38] They should have checked that.

[00:03:40] And also that there were problem management structures, but a lot of that was already being fixed and has been fixed subsequently.

[00:03:46] It's one of those things with any organisation that goes through fast growth.

[00:03:49] It has this situation where sometimes the process and management systems are outpaced by the need of the community.

[00:03:58] And what they often do is scrabble to service the need.

[00:04:01] And what happens sometimes is the backfilling, the risk management can suffer because you're so busy trying to cope with the needs which are standing in front of you.

[00:04:10] And that's never an issue as long as it's all working.

[00:04:13] But of course, if the zeitgeist turns against you, that leaves you very vulnerable.

[00:04:17] I think that's what happened to mermaids, I think.

[00:04:20] Oh, no, you're absolutely right.

[00:04:21] They were absolutely caught.

[00:04:23] And I think there was almost a bit of a war going on in terms of charities complaining about other charities.

[00:04:29] So I remember at the time there was the LGB Alliance and Stonewall.

[00:04:34] There was criticism, obviously, of the LGB Alliance, which I regard as an hateful group.

[00:04:37] But I think they were part of making complaints about mermaids and Stonewall.

[00:04:43] And then there'd been the question mark of a virgin.

[00:04:45] So they got caught up in all that.

[00:04:46] So they've been at the centre of this storm.

[00:04:48] And I'm not saying they didn't make errors or mistakes, but they also provided vital work for a community that needs that.

[00:04:56] There were no other charities of their size.

[00:04:58] Really interesting.

[00:04:59] They got caught up in the J.K. Rowling stuff, didn't they?

[00:05:02] Because it was J.K. Rowling urged people at one point to lobby that the lottery doesn't provide them any funding, the National Lottery.

[00:05:10] I remember all that.

[00:05:10] So they had that lottery funding removed and put on hold for a while, which put them at risk.

[00:05:16] I remember there were some pains to support them.

[00:05:18] I remember one night watching a live stream of a YouTuber who was trying to raise money because he'd heard about J.K. Rowling doing this.

[00:05:25] And actually raised far more than they'd lost.

[00:05:28] So there was lots of support as well for mermaids, for people on the right side of the community, people within the community.

[00:05:34] Even AOC got on that stream from America, the congressperson.

[00:05:38] So I remember all that was in the news.

[00:05:40] And then it's not heard anything for a while.

[00:05:41] And then it's just come back in.

[00:05:43] And I think you're right.

[00:05:44] The issues of their practice, their day-to-day practice, seem to have been said, that's okay.

[00:05:52] Which is important because I've been getting noise from within the NHS about whether we could refer people to mermaids.

[00:05:59] Because the question is often asked.

[00:06:01] If we've got a young person, where could we point them in terms of charitable support?

[00:06:05] And I've always said we can point them towards mermaids.

[00:06:08] But I know that had been some sort of questions because there have been this sort of investigation.

[00:06:12] So hopefully that will be resolved now.

[00:06:15] And actually that work can start to continue and prosper.

[00:06:19] But yeah, but of course it's been supporting most of the newspapers that focus on the mismanagement.

[00:06:23] Which I think I accept because I don't know all the detail that they made mistakes.

[00:06:29] And it's important the Charity Commission do that for charities.

[00:06:31] One of the things I thought was a little chilling was this sentence.

[00:06:38] I'll just read it out if you don't mind.

[00:06:39] We've carefully scrutinised mermaids' activities through a statutory inquiry.

[00:06:42] And have found mismanagement in a number of areas.

[00:06:44] Mermaids cooperated with our investigation and has been actively addressing the issues.

[00:06:47] Which is great.

[00:06:48] And I think it's the thing, isn't it, where there are often things which are tick boxes.

[00:06:53] Which are not carried out.

[00:06:56] And what's not looked at is the public good.

[00:06:58] This is where it gets interesting.

[00:07:00] Additionally, following the CAS review, we have required mermaids to present a more accurate picture on its website.

[00:07:06] As the risks involved in the use of puberty brokers.

[00:07:09] And to follow the report's findings on the involvement of parents in social transitioning.

[00:07:13] As regards any future provision of chest binders to children.

[00:07:16] All so far.

[00:07:18] This is the chilling bit.

[00:07:19] As the report indicates, there are lessons for other charities working in these areas.

[00:07:24] Including that they need to have regard to the findings, conclusions and recommendations of the CAS review.

[00:07:31] Now, that's interesting for mermaids.

[00:07:34] Because they're highly involved in that age group of puberty blockers and such like.

[00:07:39] But what's happening here is even the Charities Commissioners accepting the CAS report as being the de facto standard of what's right with trans care at the moment.

[00:07:48] And I think for mermaids, this raises a really tricky issue.

[00:07:51] Because they may or may not agree with the methodology, the findings, the principles, the philosophy, or even the intention of the CAS review.

[00:08:02] And that may be very difficult for them to have a position which is anti the CAS review.

[00:08:07] And actually having to conform to it at the same time.

[00:08:09] And I have a huge amount of sympathy for mermaids trying to figure out their response to that.

[00:08:14] I think it's going to be a real challenge.

[00:08:15] Indeed.

[00:08:16] Because many of us don't give much credit to the CAS report.

[00:08:20] Don't give much credit to them in terms of their scientific reasoning almost.

[00:08:25] And I've read lots of criticisms about how they went about it.

[00:08:27] And actually the conclusions and the overreach that they get.

[00:08:31] CAS report didn't say puberty blockers were dangerous.

[00:08:34] They just said there wasn't the point there wasn't evidence.

[00:08:36] That's what they seem to be.

[00:08:38] It's my understanding of it.

[00:08:39] There just wasn't enough evidence.

[00:08:43] But yes, I think the charity we're involved in, I would not want to give it much credence in the work we do.

[00:08:50] Because I don't accept the findings.

[00:08:52] And it seems extraordinary that this one report, and with all the flaws in that, once it's published, is not questioned.

[00:09:01] And it's being questioned elsewhere in the world, but not enough in the UK.

[00:09:06] It's supposed to have been accepted.

[00:09:07] And it makes me think about lots of inquiries where you go and ask somebody of note to go away and do that.

[00:09:13] But you're reliant on that.

[00:09:14] It wasn't a public inquiry or anything else.

[00:09:16] It was an inquiry where they spoke to some very troubling people, from my point of view.

[00:09:22] Some actively anti-trans people who don't believe trans people should really have a place or acknowledge trans identities.

[00:09:32] That puts a question mark over any inquiry in that respect.

[00:09:36] When they were supposed to be looking, my understanding really was about the use of the puberty blockers.

[00:09:42] None of this is going to stop young trans people existing or stop trans people in existing.

[00:09:47] Far more important to me that mermaids are able to do the work they do, as you say, without having to kowtow to a report they may not accept.

[00:09:57] And so that is worrying from the Charity Commission.

[00:10:01] It is.

[00:10:02] It's this thing about lazy practice, which is that if you have something that seems to be the standard, everyone conforms to it.

[00:10:09] And it gains legitimacy because of the fact that everybody talks about it.

[00:10:12] There are very many instances of this in the world where the lowest common denominator becomes the standard.

[00:10:17] And it becomes the de facto measure.

[00:10:21] And the thing is, this is a real problem for the community.

[00:10:24] And I know there have been substantial numbers of trans organisations, I think, who have written letters to West Streeting around this whole area.

[00:10:33] Because actually, it's poor research.

[00:10:37] Really poor research.

[00:10:39] And I think there was an article, wasn't there, from Yale or Harvard?

[00:10:43] Yeah, it was more than an article.

[00:10:44] They'd done a review of using serious academics and people involved in trans care, involved in healthcare across America, and academics.

[00:10:55] And there's a whole paper that some of it have serious question marks about the methodology of the report, the research, who they spoke to, who they didn't speak to, about the failure to acknowledge the other side of the argument over community blockers is, in a sense, how, by talking to you,

[00:11:13] people who affected the community.

[00:11:15] I think the community had very little involvement in that report.

[00:11:19] So, yeah.

[00:11:20] And that's a big academic study saying there's a big question mark.

[00:11:24] And we also know, although they've softened the position, the doctors' union has questioned what's in there.

[00:11:30] This leads directly on to the new guidance that was being generated by the Royal College of General Practitioners, who updated their guidance to GPs as a result of the CAS review.

[00:11:41] And basically, they made it very clear.

[00:11:44] They created a loophole that allowed doctors not to have to provide hormone care if they felt it was outside of the scope of their competence.

[00:11:55] Now, what happened then is an organisation called Trans, a big sort of lobbying organisation in the field of trans research, got involved with this and started doing some research.

[00:12:05] And they had a call for people to say, what's happening with hormones?

[00:12:10] Because reports suddenly became prevalent about the fact that people who were established on hormones, many years, in fact, post-transition, were suddenly being denied hormones.

[00:12:21] Because almost doctors were seeing this loophole as a chance.

[00:12:25] Either as a chance to, or as a religious objection, or because of a genuine concern, because it was outside their scope of competence to start withdrawing medical care.

[00:12:33] Now, put this in context, it's only around 200 responses they've had, which isn't huge, to say the least.

[00:12:39] And often the people that respond are the tip of an iceberg, but there's no evidence of that yet.

[00:12:43] But what's happened as a result of the immediate backlash from the trans community is they've redone their guidance.

[00:12:49] And they've made it clear that no one with existing treatment, with GRCs or any ongoing treatment should be withdrawn or changed or anything.

[00:13:01] But it will affect potentially people who are gender questioning or people beginning hormone treatments.

[00:13:06] It's yet another potential sort of blocker to getting treatment.

[00:13:10] And another one, of course, another blow against shared care, which is often an issue for a lot of people.

[00:13:17] Absolutely. Because doctors, they've either used in shared care or they've had, it's been prescribed through going to a gender identity clinic, right?

[00:13:25] And then they use the doctor to fill those prescriptions, right?

[00:13:27] So if a doctor is saying, they're using the sense of their competency, surely the issue is if it's been prescribed by a professional,

[00:13:37] then they shouldn't be making a decision to withdraw it because that in itself surely is them making a clinical medical decision or infect somebody's health.

[00:13:47] They should surely be going along with the experts who, if they themselves don't want, if a doctor, say, feels that they can't prescribe it from the very first instance,

[00:13:57] because they haven't got the knowledge to understand that.

[00:13:59] Although I think, sure, and I believe that GPs ought to be able to prescribe HRT as they do prescribe it for other circumstances.

[00:14:10] But if they say, well, you have to go through a gender identity clinic, for instance,

[00:14:14] how is a doctor's competency for them to say, well, we disagree or we're not going to do it?

[00:14:19] Or use that, as you say, as a loophole for people who are already got views.

[00:14:24] And we know we've come across, and look, of course, it's not every GP or far from it,

[00:14:28] but we do anecdotally come across situations where doctors have not been supportive of trans people,

[00:14:32] both in how they've treated them in terms of how they've referred to them and accepted them and included them in the practice.

[00:14:39] And they were visited.

[00:14:40] But on this issue about denying care in terms of hormones, which is extraordinary,

[00:14:46] which of course pushes people to go, pushes people to seek,

[00:14:50] if they're able to seek hormones off other places, like the internet, et cetera, abroad.

[00:14:57] And that's so troubling.

[00:15:00] So it seems every turn a barrier has been put up.

[00:15:04] I think with the RCGP, I think what they've done is,

[00:15:07] the thing is, because of the nature of litigation,

[00:15:11] I think what the RCGP were trying to do was to do exactly what happened with the Mermes case.

[00:15:15] What they did is they didn't think about the good side.

[00:15:17] They didn't think about the positive side of what's going on.

[00:15:19] And they looked at the risk.

[00:15:20] And what they said is, there's a risk here.

[00:15:22] Therefore, we need to lock the risk down.

[00:15:23] And of course, what happens is then other people point out,

[00:15:26] well, in doing that, what you've actually done is exactly as you said,

[00:15:30] you've actually made a second decision based on your lack of competence

[00:15:33] against someone who has high competence.

[00:15:35] And what they've done is, in creating a loophole, they've gone and closed it again.

[00:15:39] To be fair, it has been closed.

[00:15:41] And it may well just end up being a storm and a teacup.

[00:15:43] And it's worth, actually, for people who are interested,

[00:15:45] going onto the rcgp.org.uk website,

[00:15:49] forward slash representing new policy areas transgender care.

[00:15:52] Because actually, there's a stack of guidance around what goes on

[00:15:57] and what doctor is allowed to do,

[00:15:59] and the role of the GP and how the GP works and such.

[00:16:03] And it gives you opportunities to have a look at that

[00:16:05] if you're having trouble with your own doctor.

[00:16:07] Whilst organisations like Transactual and such do guidance in this area,

[00:16:11] there's no substitute for going on and having a look at your own stuff.

[00:16:14] And if you come to various charities that give you one-to-one support and care,

[00:16:19] they'll have a look at the website with you

[00:16:20] and help you understand it relevant to your own case.

[00:16:23] But I think it's definitely the sort of thing that we all need to be around.

[00:16:26] Because actually, we know that guidance is about risk management

[00:16:30] and not about value creation.

[00:16:32] It's the same for mermaids.

[00:16:34] And you know that doctors are much more frightened about complaints

[00:16:37] than they are pleased about getting people saying they've done a good job.

[00:16:41] It's a very strange position that we're all in.

[00:16:44] I suppose I can understand that instinct to not want to be complained about.

[00:16:48] But I just fail to see,

[00:16:51] and they're not going to get complained about from patients

[00:16:52] if they're providing their descriptions as needed,

[00:16:56] you know, and helping them know their healthcare.

[00:16:58] I haven't seen that guidance on the site.

[00:17:01] We'll take a look at that.

[00:17:02] I think the other issue for doctors is them just being more inclusive

[00:17:06] in their practice and making the place in an accepting inclusion environment

[00:17:11] for a trans person, respected names, pronouns,

[00:17:15] just simple stuff like that.

[00:17:17] Because the GP is the first person that a trans person will go to

[00:17:20] when they're seeking gender-affirming care or help from the NHS, for instance.

[00:17:25] But they're so key.

[00:17:25] I still think it goes back to this idea that when you listen to people talking,

[00:17:30] when you listen to politicians talking, you will think we're taking over the world.

[00:17:35] But I think we are still relatively rare in GP surgeries.

[00:17:40] So I think the care we get is patchy because actually there are not that many of us.

[00:17:45] Estimate the most 1% of the population are trans non-binary,

[00:17:49] part of that community.

[00:17:50] And it will be only a proportion of those that may be seeking help from the GP

[00:17:56] in terms of their identity, their dysphoria, if you want to term it.

[00:18:00] Yes, it's not going to be, but it's a significant enough number

[00:18:04] that you would expect and it's been such an issue, high-profile issue.

[00:18:09] You'd have expected, I'd have expected GPs to educate themselves on this.

[00:18:14] Yes, they may not have met or they may not have met many trans people they know, of course.

[00:18:18] I think anybody who says they've never met a trans person doesn't know

[00:18:22] that they've not met a trans person.

[00:18:23] So, of course, that may not be the case.

[00:18:26] But that aside, the fact that they're still happy to say,

[00:18:30] because it's not a hugely complicated, maybe I'm sitting with a,

[00:18:35] it doesn't seem to be a hugely complicated area of healthcare to my mind.

[00:18:40] So, yes, there are plenty, yes, there are procedures,

[00:18:42] but we're talking about hormone therapy to help a trans person

[00:18:46] live in their true gender, right?

[00:18:48] Be comfortable and live, to help with their dysphoria

[00:18:51] and live in their true gender.

[00:18:52] And there are drugs that can help with that.

[00:18:54] And the main, they are HRT drugs, right?

[00:18:57] That doesn't seem to be overly complicated unless I'm missing something.

[00:19:01] And then you've also got the healthcare in terms of surgery

[00:19:04] and other matters, which are more significant in the impact, maybe.

[00:19:08] But it's not a, it doesn't seem to me like an overcomplicated issue

[00:19:12] that maybe I'm missing something that could,

[00:19:16] would take a long time for somebody to educate themselves on,

[00:19:18] or at least to a degree where they could provide that base level of service

[00:19:23] that somebody needed.

[00:19:25] I don't know.

[00:19:26] Maybe I even am missing something on that.

[00:19:28] But yeah, it really is quite interesting, isn't it?

[00:19:32] How few there are.

[00:19:33] And well, yeah.

[00:19:34] Especially when you start saying how few there are compared

[00:19:36] to the fuss that's made.

[00:19:38] That's the point.

[00:19:39] If you ask the general public sometimes,

[00:19:40] they'll say, oh, there's 20% of people are trans

[00:19:42] or something ridiculous like that.

[00:19:43] You've seen that in America.

[00:19:44] And actually, everybody overestimates all of those facts.

[00:19:48] Of course, the census, I don't think, would identify younger people

[00:19:52] because they wouldn't have recorded all that detail.

[00:19:55] It would be the householder and then the individual filling it in.

[00:20:00] So there may be data missing for younger people

[00:20:02] because we've seen the growth in younger people.

[00:20:05] The demographic has shifted younger, hasn't it,

[00:20:06] in terms of the community?

[00:20:08] And massively.

[00:20:09] So again, I tend to, when I'm doing training,

[00:20:11] talk about there may be up to 1% of people

[00:20:14] that are trans and non-binary or gender questioning,

[00:20:17] which may be overestimating.

[00:20:19] It's probably overestimating it.

[00:20:21] Are we at many of us?

[00:20:23] No, and they're a disparate community.

[00:20:25] I've got a number of colleagues in the trust I work for.

[00:20:27] But yeah, whether it amounts to more than 1%,

[00:20:29] but 1% is significant.

[00:20:31] You're right.

[00:20:33] Yeah, I think that's very interesting.

[00:20:35] It's good that the college have changed their advice,

[00:20:38] but it is troubling that it's giving people,

[00:20:42] giving the very few, I would hope,

[00:20:44] GPs that have a negative view towards trans people

[00:20:47] who don't wish to accept their validity.

[00:20:50] The excuse not to provide care is friendly.

[00:20:53] And the whole worry of the cast report being everywhere

[00:20:55] as if it's something that's important.

[00:20:57] It is.

[00:20:58] That's the thing, isn't it?

[00:20:59] Yeah, and it feels like everything you touch at the moment

[00:21:02] when you get into the trans healthcare scheme,

[00:21:04] but I'm sure people would say I'm biased

[00:21:07] as a reason I don't accept it

[00:21:08] because I don't like some of the outcomes,

[00:21:10] and that is true.

[00:21:11] But also, we have done some reading on this,

[00:21:14] and there is some significant question marks over it.

[00:21:17] But it's treated like a biblical text, isn't it,

[00:21:20] I think, in terms of the people involved in it.

[00:21:23] But yeah, a bit of good news

[00:21:27] and some of the stuff on Mimades,

[00:21:29] but, and just some troubling stuff again

[00:21:32] that's still in the ether, isn't it?

[00:21:33] All I can say is this.

[00:21:34] We've done a serious episode,

[00:21:35] and it's going out alongside our flippant exos episode

[00:21:38] around Halloween.

[00:21:39] People, there's a bit of light and shade this week,

[00:21:41] isn't there?

[00:21:41] There's the Halloween frippery

[00:21:43] and the serious comment and debate.

[00:21:45] Let's not just, let's not say we don't have range.

[00:21:49] We definitely have range,

[00:21:50] and there's nothing more scary than a turf with a platform.

[00:21:53] So there's nothing more,

[00:21:54] there's nothing more scary than that

[00:21:56] when you're thinking about Halloween.

[00:21:58] But yeah, these are serious matters.

[00:22:00] These are our lives.

[00:22:01] This is our existence.

[00:22:03] And we've got a looming general election in two weeks

[00:22:05] that is equally scary.

[00:22:08] I would say.

[00:22:09] Potential outcome, yes.

[00:22:10] On that cheerful note,

[00:22:12] let's be uplifted and just conclude,

[00:22:14] well done, Mimades.

[00:22:15] We think we're very proud of you

[00:22:16] and we're delighted for you.

[00:22:18] And let's see,

[00:22:19] back in the vanguard,

[00:22:20] striding forward

[00:22:21] and taking their rightful place

[00:22:22] back in the community.

[00:22:24] And indeed,

[00:22:24] and all the charities working in this act,

[00:22:26] maybe we need to find a way

[00:22:27] of working better together as charities as well,

[00:22:30] I don't think.

[00:22:31] If only.

[00:22:31] Because we all need to support each other.

[00:22:34] But yes,

[00:22:35] let's end on that positive note

[00:22:37] because we don't get much positive these days.

[00:22:39] I look forward to next time anyway, Jill.

[00:22:40] I guess we might be less serious next time,

[00:22:42] but who knows?

[00:22:43] Blind shit, that's what we want.

[00:22:44] Depends when the news has come through,

[00:22:46] doesn't it?

[00:22:46] It's just a range that keeps us interesting.

[00:22:48] Is that right?

[00:22:49] And if we can't think of anything,

[00:22:51] that Star Trek episode is definitely ready.

[00:22:53] We've still got that in our back pocket.

[00:22:54] A whole hour on an analysis

[00:22:57] of trans lives in Star Trek

[00:22:59] would, I think,

[00:23:02] I think would basically

[00:23:03] switch off the last of our listeners,

[00:23:05] but we could still keep that in our pocket.

[00:23:08] And talking about that,

[00:23:09] if anyone wants to go to transvox.co.uk

[00:23:11] or send me an email at jillian.co.uk.

[00:23:12] Oh yes, please do.

[00:23:14] You can get some questions asked.

[00:23:16] And we've asked quite a lot of questions

[00:23:19] over the last six months or so,

[00:23:20] but that's absolutely fine.

[00:23:22] But here's a new feature, Jenny.

[00:23:23] I don't know if you knew this.

[00:23:24] You can go on our website

[00:23:25] and leave us a voice note now.

[00:23:27] So there you go.

[00:23:28] We've arrived.

[00:23:30] We've arrived in the 21st century.

[00:23:33] Oh, I look forward to those.

[00:23:34] But yes, absolutely.

[00:23:35] We welcome that.

[00:23:36] Oh, I look forward to some voice messages,

[00:23:39] I guess.

[00:23:40] Clean, hopefully.

[00:23:42] See you next week.

[00:23:43] You take care.

[00:23:44] See you all.

[00:23:45] Bye-bye.

[00:23:49] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox.

[00:23:53] It's been a joy to have you with us.

[00:23:54] If you want to make contact with us,

[00:23:57] you can contact us at jillian at transvox.co.uk.

[00:24:02] And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.

[00:24:05] And Jen, you've chosen the charity

[00:24:07] for the next number of episodes.

[00:24:09] Which one have you chosen?

[00:24:10] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections,

[00:24:12] which is a charity that provides support and counselling

[00:24:16] to trans people, non-binary people,

[00:24:18] and their friends and their families across the UK.

[00:24:21] An amazing charity doing some amazing work.

[00:24:24] Really important.

[00:24:25] So please, if you can give.

[00:24:27] Great.

[00:24:28] And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections,

[00:24:30] it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.

[00:24:33] But as I say,

[00:24:34] if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing,

[00:24:36] because we love to help the people who help us.

[00:24:38] Again, if you've got ideas for the show,

[00:24:40] things you'd like to ask us,

[00:24:42] questions, comments, applause,

[00:24:44] or brick baths,

[00:24:45] feel free to send it all in to jillian

[00:24:48] at transvox.co.uk.

[00:24:50] Until the next time,

[00:24:51] goodbye.

[00:24:52] Bye-bye.

[00:24:56] Bye-bye.