Transvox - Meeting Jamison Green - A Lifetime of Advocacy

[00:00:07] Hey and welcome back to Transvox and in our recent series of interviews it's been a delight to actually reach out and meet lots of different people talking about lots of different things and when I saw a post on LinkedIn quite recently from my next guest Jamison Green I thought I really do have to have them on the podcast. Fascinating story, fascinating individual and someone who's written a book recently and they're in the States so I thought it'd be really interesting to meet you.

[00:00:34] So first of all sitting in front of me and welcome Jamison Green. How are you? I'm very well thank you very much Gillian I appreciate your invitation. That's great I can't wait to talk more about you and I guess by the accent as I said you're over the pond where in the world are you? Physically I'm in Washington State in southern Washington, southwest Washington State near Portland Oregon actually.

[00:00:59] But my accent is a California accent I was born and raised in the San Francisco Bay Area. So you've migrated north over the lifetime? Yes. What's the environment like in Seattle for trans people and communities because I'm getting the impression that the outsides are okay but the insides are a bit more complicated. Is that still the case?

[00:01:23] We have done a lot of work on the West Coast of the United States. California, Oregon and Washington are three of the most progressive states and the most friendly states for all LGBTQ plus people. It's pretty good here. We do have our political right wing active in these states as well.

[00:01:49] They're certainly not invisible, but they do not dominate. And politically all three states are pretty much the left wing has a stronger foothold than in many other parts of the country.

[00:02:06] Yesterday, not a poll, but a report that that Oregon has per population, the largest number of LGBTQ people in the country as a state percentage wise.

[00:02:22] And Washington is the Washington has probably twice as many LGBTQ plus people as Oregon does, but the population of Washington is much bigger than the population of Oregon. So percentage wise, we're number five in the country. Wow. California is not even in the top 10. Really? Yeah.

[00:02:50] California is the largest state population wise. If roughly, I think in Oregon, it's like 7.8% of the population is LGBTQ plus. And in Washington, it's something 6.8 or 6.9. Yeah. Because there's normally around one and 3%, isn't it? Yeah. Well, you're doing something right. I hope they stay successful and it's all working.

[00:03:18] What we don't want is that the state to be falling apart. So far, so good. Very good. Well, look, tell us a little bit about your background and what it is that you do and a bit about where you've come from. I come, I was born and raised in Oakland, California, which is a very diverse city, right across the bay from San Francisco. My father worked in San Francisco as a, he was a furniture wholesaler.

[00:03:43] He traveled around all the Northern California territory, but he was only in his office one day a week. We didn't just stay in our neighborhood. We saw the countryside. We saw this other cities. It was an educational childhood in terms of exposure to humanity. And I've always liked telling stories. And I always wanted to be a writer. I knew I wanted to be a writer when I was seven.

[00:04:12] I basically had a pretty happy childhood, except for the fact that I was trans. But of course, at the time I didn't understand what it was about me that didn't fit in. And, but I was pretty comfortable in my skin and I was very uncomfortable in my clothes as a child. That's interesting. That's a very interesting way of putting it.

[00:04:41] And I was very athletic and was often the only girl, so to speak, who was allowed to play sports, any sport with boys, either at school or in the neighborhood. And I was the captain of the neighborhood baseball team and the captain of the neighborhood football team. And I was always organizing people to do things, mostly play games as a child.

[00:05:07] But when I made money, not a lot, but I made money by teaching girls how to climb trees. I charged them a nickel, a lesson. Yeah. The entrepreneurial spirit is a wise and well. I had that kind of a childhood. And then, but I wanted to be a writer very much.

[00:05:31] And I got into an MFA, a Master of Fine Arts program in creative writing at the University of Oregon. It was one of the top five schools for MFA programs in the country at the time in the 1960s. And actually graduated from college with a degree in English in 1970 and then went directly into grad school. And got my Master of Fine Arts in creative writing and short fiction special specialty in 1972.

[00:06:02] And then I promptly got a job. There was a depression going on. I didn't want to go back to the Bay Area because I was afraid my parents would, if I didn't have a job in two weeks, my parents would, my father would hire me out as a secretary for somebody and I'd have to wear dresses and I would not survive. I couldn't live like that. So I got a job in construction.

[00:06:26] I didn't find out until many years later that the Pacific Northwest Bell Telephone Company in Portland, Oregon, was under a consent decree to hire women and minorities in non-traditional fields. Oh, okay. And I walked in the door wearing an army jacket, jeans, asked them if they needed any writers or photographers because I could also do that. And they said, no, we don't do that here. But do you think you could climb?

[00:06:56] How do you feel about climbing poles? And do you think you could lift a manhole cover? And I said, I can do anything. So they hired me. Wow. And I happened to be the first female bodied person to actually pass what they called line school, which was where you go through a battery of tests. You can't be colorblind. You have to have perfect hearing, all kinds of things. And then you have to be able to alphabetize and do basic computation.

[00:07:25] And then they teach you to climb poles and teach you all the safety things. And I was the first female bodied person that they had hired to actually successfully pass that course. And then they offered me a job as a janitor, a building janitor, because they didn't know what to do with me. I don't even know what a cable splicer does. But I do know what a janitor does and what a janitor is. And I'm damned if I'm going to do that work.

[00:07:54] I passed your line school. I signed up to be a splicer. I'm going to be a splicer. They said, okay, and let me go. And it was that was 1973. And there was a lot of joking about the broad, the dumb broad isn't that.

[00:08:16] And before long, I actually learned that that a bunch of women on the other side of town had tried to be cable splicers. After I broke the barrier, they started lowering the requirements a little bit. Yeah. So you were trailblazing from the beginning in a sense, weren't you? Because so how did they trans? How did you get into the sort of transition thing? Because that's a lovely phrase. I wasn't happy with my body was I wasn't out with my clothes.

[00:08:44] So when did that change begin to happen? Because you're right. There wasn't the language for it in those days, was there? No, there wasn't. I actually met a trans person in 1976. And it was, it actually turned out to be somebody that I knew in the sense that I had already known this person for probably 10 years.

[00:09:12] And they had gone off to New York and found an ad, an advertisement for a group that was looking for 12 female to male transsexual people to be in a program at the University of Oregon Medical School. Yeah. And so he was telling me, they started him on testosterone. And he was telling me, you would really like this.

[00:09:42] And I'm like, would I? It's, I was already clear that I was a transsexual person, but I did not know how to access care. I did not know actually the care was available. I had not seen anyone who had actually gone through the process. So everybody knew about Christine Jorgensen, who transitioned in the early 1950s and was very famous.

[00:10:12] But there were no visible trans men. No. And anyway, this one friend said, you should do this. And I said, I don't know. I want to know more about it. Tell me more. And he did. And I actually tried testosterone under the table, so to speak, and took two injections, couple weeks apart, and then had the worst case of acne I had ever experienced in my life.

[00:10:41] And I freaked out because I thought, I'm taking this illegal drug. I can't ask my doctor to treat me. So I stopped. And that was in the early 70s or mid-70s. That was in the mid-70s. And I actually didn't start my transition medically until 1987. Okay. And how did you cope with that period between there?

[00:11:11] Because actually, you must have still had all the gender dysphoria, but you were coping with it somehow. I did. I did have dysphoria, and I tried to, I just tried to shove it down. But I could not function in the world as a woman. I was, and so I was constantly running up against walls or ridiculed in particular.

[00:11:34] But I used my social skills the best I could to make inroads in various places. I never wore women's clothing. I didn't dress up as a man, though. I tried to be something in between. Yeah. And there were no words for that, like gender neutral or anything like that. There was androgynous, but that was just a description of what you looked like. Yes.

[00:12:01] It wasn't an identity in those days. So there was still no terminology. And I started working as a technical writer. I worked for, I worked for the Bank of California, and then I worked for a medical device manufacturing company. And that's where I really learned how to talk to doctors. Wow.

[00:12:23] And because I was the only writer in the company, and they figured out pretty quickly that not only could I do technical writing, but I could do marketing writing, and I could do speech writing, and I could do all kinds of writing. And so I was pretty, two departments had a big battle over me. And as a result, my salary went way up. Right. It was pretty. Yeah. Yeah. So I carved out a niche for myself.

[00:12:50] And then ultimately I went into the computer field and I also documented surgical lasers and intraocular microsurgery systems and stuff. But then I went into the computer field when it was very fresh and I became a manager of writers. And then ultimately my last job was, I ended in 2007. I was the director of technical publications for Visa. Yeah.

[00:13:16] And so you were experiencing some of that discrimination against female bodied people at the time. And I guess you must have gone through that process. If you transitioned, you must have seen the advantages. Because I always think it's fascinating as we go back and forth that sometimes there are advantages and disadvantages between one gender or another. So take us through the transition if you wouldn't mind, but, and then I wouldn't mind you just talking a little bit about that. Sure.

[00:13:43] So I figured out that I could transition, that I really did want to transition and that it was really technically possible. I also started writing, this is one of the ways I processed it. I started writing a novel about a person who was struggling with not fitting in as a, as a woman and being perceived as male.

[00:14:07] A lot of the time dressing in a masculine way, just trying to figure out how they fit in and then trying to determine whether or not they would transition. And I'd never completed that novel. Actually, I did finish a first draft of it needs a lot of work still. And I'm going to go back and rework it because it's got some pretty interesting stuff. But I actually was going through that process at the same time that I was writing about it.

[00:14:36] And I got connected in the process of researching for the novel. I got, I found out about little publications that were going, that were in the community and in a publication from Atlanta, Georgia called the transsexual voice.

[00:14:54] And I saw a little ad information for the female to male cross dresser and transsexuals send $5 to L Sullivan, the post office box in San Francisco. And here I am in the East Bay area. I'm thinking, how come I don't know about this person? I'm right here. They're in my backyard. I'm in their backyard. We come on. So anyway, I send my $5. And because I have, I'm local.

[00:15:24] Lou Sullivan wrote me a little note back. He sent me his information booklet and wrote a little note. We're starting to have meetings in San Francisco on a quarterly basis. And if you're interested, let's have a conversation and give me his phone number. It took me six months to get up the nerve to call him. And finally I did. And we had a lovely conversation.

[00:15:52] And he invited me to this meeting. And at the next meeting was going to be the guest speaker was going to be Steve Dane. And I had seen Steve Dane on television in 1977.

[00:16:06] And that was, and he was so confident about himself and so poised and articulate and amazing that I said, oh, it really is possible. I was very shy in many respects. Very outgoing person, but also very shy. Yeah. Makes sense.

[00:16:32] So I, I muddled around for 10 more years, almost 10 years. And people really perceived me as male a lot of the time. And I was not making any attempt to disguise myself in any way. Yeah. But, so anyway, I ended up filling out the application to the sex reassignment program at Stanford University. Yeah.

[00:16:59] Which had to, by that, shortly after I was accepted, the university administrators asked the doctor who was doing the program to not affiliate himself with Stanford, not affiliate that work with Stanford anymore. Yeah. Because some big donors didn't want to support that activity. Yeah. Or even any education about it. Yeah.

[00:17:28] And so they didn't want to lose their big donors. So they asked him to move his surgery suite off campus, which he did. But I had my top surgery on the Stanford campus. Wow. And went through the evaluation process prior to that. And I, at the time I was working as a manager of an engineering group manager was the title of my job.

[00:17:55] And I was in charge of system software documentation for Sun Microsystems. Okay. And it was, I had a dozen writers working for me and, and it was a big deal. And I had no idea if I was going to, I didn't ask for any kind of benefits or anything. I just, cause it was, there was an exclusion in the policy. Oh.

[00:18:23] I found out that no treatment will be provided for any services related to sex reassignment. Wow. And then I, and that was a light bulb in my little brain. This is a problem for a lot of people. Yeah. And that sort of set me on a course to change that. And I was quite successful in the United States at being able to change that, to get policies to remove those exclusionary clauses.

[00:18:53] And start. You're being very modest at this stage, James, if I may say so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it was a long slog basically began in 19. First of all, I should say Lou Sullivan, um, had HIV and died in 1991. So I met him. I first spoke to him in 87. I met him in 88, started attending his meetings.

[00:19:23] I had thought I wasn't going to need any kind of group. I was just going to get my sex changed and go home and mow my lawn. Nothing in my life would really change because I didn't, I wouldn't look any different. I would change gradually over time. I could just switch pronouns and nothing. That would be it. But that wasn't true. I started going to Lou's group. Lou was getting sicker. He asked me to take over leading some of the groups.

[00:19:50] And then when, after he died, I was asked to come and speak to the San Francisco Human Rights Commission. They had a group called the LGB HIV committee that advised the Human Rights Commission about gay, lesbian, bisexual, and people with AIDS, civil rights. And so I went to tell them about who trans people were and why trans people needed civil rights also.

[00:20:19] And ended up working with that committee for two years. And we held, we finally in 1994, held a public hearing in the Board of Supervisors chambers to investigate discrimination against transgender people. And I won the contract to write the report from that meeting.

[00:20:44] And the list of recommendations that I made in that report ended up informing many other cities and states and even Canada. I know, I may even go beyond that. I just, I do know that Canada used it as a model. Yeah. But in Ontario. But the first thing it did was get us a non-discrimination ordinance and then many other things down the road.

[00:21:10] That was passed in 94 and went into effect in January of 1995. And it was the first one that included the words gender identity and expression in the law. Yeah. And I was asked to sit down with the city attorneys and draft the law so that it would have the right words in it. Yeah. And that was a big sort of coup.

[00:21:35] And then I said, now you're in violation of your equal benefits ordinance. You exclude trans people from your, the insurance coverage that you offer your employees. And, and then it took six years after that, six years of almost monthly meetings to convince them to remove their clause there, that, that, that exclusionary clause. Yeah.

[00:22:03] From one of the five plans that they offered employees. And the rest is history. Basically, they just, plans just went down by bowling pins. They, it was the state of California. Wasn't long after the city implemented the plan, which was in 19 or which is in 2005 that we actually got actuarial data.

[00:22:31] 2001, the plan passed. 2002, it went into effect. 2005, we had actuarial data that proved what I was saying all along, that it does not cost more money to include transgender people in a, in an insurance plan. Yeah. Because they're already paying for the same services. It's only when you identify as trans that you are suddenly excluded. Yeah. Unfair.

[00:23:00] Terribly unfair. Same services are provided for, for people who are not trans identified. Yeah. So just to, to pop around for a little bit, if I may, you mentioned Lou Sullivan a couple of times. Now, when I was much younger, I remember the magazine FTM International, and that was Lou Sullivan. You've been, this is what I mean, you've been incredibly modest. Many of us used to know about that organization.

[00:23:22] Arguably, it set up the structure or the philosophy of how group supports is still run in many transgender charities to this very day. It will affect on WPath guidance and philosophy and such like. And you wrote a book, didn't you? In 2007, which I guess is probably, I don't know. I wouldn't say you're best known for it, but it's certainly very pit prop of your life. And it was called Becoming a Visible Man. This has had all sorts of accolades, won awards.

[00:23:52] It's, it's been, you know, quite a change. So maybe tell us, is this the only book you've written or have you written others since that? Because we need to talk a little bit about that book then. It is more than just a, just my story. It is called a memoir. It was actually published in 2004. Yeah. I sold it to Vanderbilt University Press in 2002 and delivered the manuscript in 2003. And the finished manuscript, and then it was published in 2004.

[00:24:19] And then it's, I, what I tried to do, it, what, what I tried to do was write the, answer the questions that people always are asking. Yeah. Who trans people are? What is our treatment? Whether it, if we are trans, we're asking, where can I go? What can I do? What questions should I be asking? What do I need to know?

[00:24:45] And, but I did it with a sort of, I used fiction writing techniques actually, to weave a story, to draw people in and use emotional hooks in each topic area to create interest and move people through the process. And yes, indeed, it was a very successful book. I did not get rich. I did not get rich.

[00:25:13] But in the 2019 Vanderbilt University Press called me up and said, we just realized your book is our best selling book of all time. Wow. And in 2020 is going to be Vanderbilt's 80th anniversary year. And so we want to give your book a new treatment, give you a new cover, promote it a little bit because it's, it is, it's done amazing for a university press book.

[00:25:41] And, and I, they, would you be willing to write a preface for the second edition? And I said, would you be willing to let me rewrite a lot of the text because so much has changed. So much is different now. And I would really like to update the text. And so they said, you would do that? And I said, yes. Yes.

[00:26:06] So the, the first part of the book, the first half of the book basically is essentially the same, except that I updated all the vocabulary and updated the scientific references that are in it. And then the second half of the book adds a lot more new information about new groups that had come up, all the artists, trans artists that are working now.

[00:26:29] So many things that have happened in the field of law, the, the advent, the advance of the insurance coverage, the non-discrimination ordinances around the world on and on. So yes. And the, and my involvement with WPATH. Again, I'm not tooting my horn in there either. I've just mentioned it. I just, I'm not uncomfortable talking about it, but I am a little uncomfortable writing about it.

[00:26:56] An essay that was published in the journal of law medicine and ethics. That is an open access issue. And it was the fall, fall issue in 2022. It's called unbending the light. Changing laws and policies to make trans transgender health, I think visible, something like that. Yeah.

[00:27:25] And because they asked me to write about my experience working with WPATH and what I wanted to accomplish and what, how that happened. So that's in that particular article. And I was pretty frank in there. Hmm. Talked about some of the discrimination that I experienced and that, that sort of thing, but talked about perseverance. And just getting through.

[00:27:53] Going back to where we were chatting about earlier, it's, and I've talked to other trans men who talk about this, that they lose the degree of prejudice when they become men. They, they seem to have, when they present as men, because they seem to have more acceptance in the workplace. And it's odd, isn't it? Because people don't make a fuss about trans men. All the current legislation and the noise and the brouhaha going on in the States is about trans women using bathrooms. It's the excuse. Right.

[00:28:19] They don't seem to have figured out that there are a bunch of trans men who are going to suddenly start using female toilets, people with beards and mustaches and, and how no one's thought this thing through at all. Have they? They started trying to pass bathroom bills, 2016, 2015, 2016. And that was because they lost on gay marriage. Yeah. Or same sex marriage. I prefer to say. Yeah.

[00:28:47] They lost same sex marriage and that scared them. So where can they find a, an access point to, to rile up the populace to get them to hate these people and help them put a stop to it, whatever it is. And, and they've, they had been looking at trans people for a while, but they hadn't had a lot of traction. And bathroom bills started getting them.

[00:29:16] And then bathroom bills started getting them some traction, but none of them really got anywhere, but it got them a lot of publicity. And a lot of people, especially people who belong to religious organizations sent them money to help them fight these fights. And, and that's a clue right there, as far as they're concerned. Yeah. So they can get money by victimizing us. Yeah. And that is exactly what they're still doing. So, yes.

[00:29:44] And, and I spoke many times back then about the fact that you don't want me in your bathroom. Hmm. You don't, don't make these rules are crazy. Yeah. That you're making people function very well. And in fact, we passed bathroom trans bathroom access in California back in the early two thousands, never had an incident, never had any problems.

[00:30:12] The only people breaking, I said, there's already laws against assaulting people in restrooms, public restrooms. You don't need a new law and find out who's doing the assaulting. It's not trans people. No. It's just, it is, it never fails to amaze me that partly the reason we know why people pick on trans people is because it allows us to all, as you say, to fight. And it's about mobilizing people to hate each other.

[00:30:40] So their attention is directed from what's really going on in the world. And you think at the moment with the amount of legislation and change sweeping through. I think two things tend to happen. And I don't know with the benefit of your experience. Warmush is the bigger the noise. Sometimes you get more support as well, because actually the, let's say 50, 50, 60 percent people are really against you.

[00:31:07] There still needs a lot of people who are ambivalent, as well as the people who are very strongly for you. And I find that support solidifies as well. And I think over here, you have people, you have anti-trans invective that's much more obvious, but also you have much more support. And I don't know if that's, I don't know if you're seeing that yet in the States, but we know, I mean, well, it's clear what's going on in the States.

[00:31:27] It's, it's, let's poke a stick at immigrants and trans people whilst we make, create oligogs and fund our tech bros empires and create stacks of cash for each other. And it's obvious, isn't it? But, you know, but people have been fed down that. It's not people's fault that they've been indoctrinated with this sort of methodology. But it's a real problem for trans people because actually the stories you hear coming out of the States are awful and people being pursued from one state to another, even.

[00:31:57] This is, this is against all of your democratic rights, which seem to be under threat as well, which I think is part of the problem. Air trains undo the constitution. Yeah. Really, really terrifying. It's Hitler 2.0. Yeah, it is. And do you think it's going to just, it's a case for trans people over in America just to put their heads under the parapet and hide away? Or should you be fighting? It's tricky. You can't do that.

[00:32:20] People are terrified, but we're starting to talk to each other, come together, build up each other's courage. We don't need to all go out and parade in the streets. That's not the point. The point is to have those conversations with people who have other influence than we do. Yeah. To basically, we have a lot of allies in the government, in many states and in the federal government.

[00:32:49] And we have to shore up those relationships and make sure that they understand who we are, that we're out here, that, you know, what are the constitutional rights that we have, that we all have? And if they start chipping away at some people's rights, they've already passed or they've proposed a bill in the state of Idaho just yesterday about taking away same-sex marriage.

[00:33:17] They want to petition the court to overturn the Obergefell, which is the case that granted same-sex marriage. And gay people have to wake up also and realize, oh, it's not just the trans people who are going to get picked off. They're next. And it's not that they're next. It's the legislation being used to attack trans people is actually going to affect others.

[00:33:44] And what intrigues me is that if we read Project 2025, this is all an attack on women's rights. And the frustration for me is this point about cis women turning the fire on trans women, not realizing that actually as trans women, we have a vested interest to really look after feminism, cis women's rights, because it's where we want to be in ourselves. So why would you be turning your fire on us?

[00:34:11] And there were women who were on that side of the equation, and I understand that. But it just seems odd to me that some of your most strident female politicians are attacking the very people who the legislation has been used to target themselves. Very odd. A lot of those strident female politicians are not feminists. They pattern themselves as the accomplices of men. Yeah. They support the patriarchy.

[00:34:41] I don't think they have a sensibility that allows them to recognize where their solidarity should lie. Yeah. Because their focus is on men. Yeah. And I think it's that thing about being part of a cult mentality, isn't it? People are brainwashed. And in the pursuit of power and influence, people do what it takes to get it, don't they? And it's a sad fact of human nature, irrespective of who it is.

[00:35:10] I have to say, though, in the States, we don't have the same level of – we don't have J.K. Rowling and that sort of thing going on. Yeah. There are people like that here, but it's not as powerful a voice here.

[00:35:29] And as a result of the abortion overturning of Roe v. Wade, there has been an incredible amount of banding together between people who are interested in reproductive justice and women's groups interested in reproductive justice, taking on the issues of trans people because they recognize the similarities and the interdependencies.

[00:35:55] And so there's tremendous synergy going on there, which is very powerful.

[00:36:28] Yeah. There's an inevitability about what's actually happening at the moment. There should only be secured in one way. So we've got to look out for ourselves where we've got the chance. Yeah. I thank you for that offer. We really have to get people to recognize what's actually happening and recognize how their own rights are being infringed or being threatened. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:55] And this is all about – at the end of it, it's about those age-old things – power, greed, money, influence, self-serving, and making sure that people can – those that have – get more and more. And it's interesting, isn't it? It's fascinating. You look through history, you see the same things happening time again. And I guess then to look through history is something that you said right at the top of this was we've been here before. We've always been here. And so there is always hope, isn't there?

[00:37:24] There's always that opportunity to think that as the pendulum swings one way or the other, it's one way at the moment. Perhaps it's going to come back again, hopefully. Yeah. One of the things that young people need to recognize is that we actually are more resilient than they may feel. Yeah.

[00:37:45] Young people, sadly, they just haven't lived long enough – it's not their fault – to recognize that they can fall down and get back up again and that sort of thing. We have – they've had insurance coverage most of their lives. And we grew up without any insurance coverage, at least in the United States.

[00:38:12] And we have – we were – but before we had it, we were able – not as many of us, but some of us were able to get care. We were able to find doctors. We were able to get surgery. We were able to get hormones. And without even the internet, we didn't have any tools at our disposal like we have now. Yeah.

[00:38:40] And we are resilient. We can overcome these obstacles. We know what the talking points are. The difficulty right now is actually getting people to listen. Yeah. We've gone to the legislatures. People in the – they usually like to only hear from people in their states if they're legislating at the state level.

[00:39:06] If we go in from outside, we usually stay in the background and give encouragement to the people there. But the people there are the ones who are voting for those people. They're the ones they want to hear from. Yeah. And the fact is they would just shut them down. They would shut down the young children who were there to testify. They would shut down parents of trans kids who were there to testify. They would shut down trans adults who were there to testify.

[00:39:36] They don't want to hear it. Yeah. Yeah. That, to me, is indicative of an incredible level of oppression and hatred that they are – they won't even allow us to speak. But I also think it's – you have to be proportional about this because, actually, this is applying to anybody about any issue.

[00:40:02] If you're a Republican, you're in danger of losing your seat if you disagree with anything from tariffs through to whatever it might be. Whilst there's a lot of noise about transgender people, it's there for a reason. It's there to hide from the big issues, the posturing that's going on in the world. There are a load of people who are experiencing – basically, America is going to become a sort of a mafia organisation for the next period of time. And there you go. You have the chance not to do it, and you did it. You allowed it to happen as a group of people.

[00:40:32] And this is the nature of what happens, isn't it? And it's the nature of where, if you're going to be a liberal democracy, you've got to look after people. Because if they don't, people get annoyed and they rebel. And all we're all hoping is it's a massive failure. America self-combust, which is what it looks like, and we'll be all looked after by China soon.

[00:40:54] Because actually, the news quite recently about the China AI innovation is showing actually how vulnerable your organisation, how sclerotic the organisation has become. Because actually, it's a big company, which is what you are now. You're going to be victims of small, nimble places, as you were once yourselves. So the empire is crumbling, I'm afraid. It's scary watching it. That's right. It is. It is scary. Yeah.

[00:41:23] And I hate to see people suffer. The fact is, people don't have to suffer to go through these kinds of evolutions. People don't have to be sacrificed for this sort of thing. Because I don't think they know where they're going. They don't know where they're going. They're just greedy. Yeah. They know exactly where they're going, which is to, I think, isn't it? Trump's stated ambition to have half a trillion by the time he leaves in four years' time, because he wants to try and catch up to Putin. It's all greedy, ridiculous, egocentric. That's it.

[00:41:53] Not governing at all. And at the heart of it is you've got someone from South Africa driving the holy agenda. And it's no surprise that a South African person who's rooted in the idea of white slavery, white supremacy, is now running your place. And it's not just him. There's Peter Patil and the rest of them. It's very interesting. We didn't vote for him. You did. I'm just, I'm like livid about this. Get that guy out of here.

[00:42:23] He has no business there. Yeah. Yeah. And I can't believe that our government officials, Mitch McConnell, is the consummate politician in charge of the, he's no longer in charge of the Senate because he's stepping back. He's old and he's old and he's about to croak. But he has a lot of power and authority still.

[00:42:50] I can't believe that he is not exercising that power better to shut these things down. I'm afraid what we're saying is an economy that's gone soft and you've gone soft and there's just too much. A number of times there's been the opportunity of shutting this thing down. Anyway, it's nothing to do with me. I'm in the UK. I've got to look after ourselves. But what we see is old musky trying to interfere in our politics. But Brits don't like that.

[00:43:18] We're not quite so keen on people who are like that interfering. And if there's one way to drive a wedge between us is to start interfering in other organizations. And yet what I really have to focus on is the survivability of my people. Not that I own anybody. I don't own anybody. But I care deeply for the trans community. And by extension, the whole LGBTQ plus community. That's where I grew up.

[00:43:50] We have fought very hard for decades, many decades, for our visibility and our freedom and our civil rights and our human rights. And damned if I'm going to allow that to go away. And we have to look after us, because actually what we're fighting for is not just our rights. We're fighting for democracy and democracies need to be fought for. And I think that's what we're seeing now.

[00:44:15] That if we want to live in what we call freedom, then we've got to fight for democracy. And what's going on against us is a fight against democracy. But there's always hope if we band together, stick together. And as long as your American politics aren't wiped out so that we have the youngster, the son appearing as the next MAGA representative, then there you go. God. Yes. Oh, my God. It's horrible. Yeah. It's horrible to contemplate.

[00:44:45] Right now, we just published a book called A History of Transgender Medicine in the United States, which actually will become – the publication date is February 1st. Some pre-ordered copies have started shipping. So I actually have a copy right here. Fantastic. Tell me more about it. It's a pretty book, did you say? It's a pretty book. It's a pretty cover, I think. It is. It's a beautiful cover. Yeah. Yes.

[00:45:13] So there are four editors. I'm one of the four editors and 43 total contributing authors. It's an anthology of perspective that's shaped in the history that tells basically how trans people came to find themselves in the United States and how they worked with doctors and mental health providers to try to advance our care and our rights. And where can I find it?

[00:45:43] It's a narrative. Where is it? Where is it? It's published by Suny Press. It's S-U-N-Y press. It's S-U-N-Y press.edu is the URL for them. And it's also available through Amazon and any bookseller can order it. I'm just seeing if it's 794 pages long.

[00:46:13] It's 794 pages long. Wow. It's huge. So this chapter actually is by Serena Nanda, who passed away right after she completed the chapter.

[00:46:40] She's a renowned anthropologist who studied global gender, the function of genders in societies. And she does a sort of global overview of gender diversity. And then we go to Germany and Magnus Hirschfeld. And then Harry Benjamin, who knew Hirschfeld, comes to the United States, meets Alfred Kinsey. And we go from there.

[00:47:08] And trans people worked very hard to get in touch with Kinsey and Hirschfeld. Not Hirschfeld. Kinsey and Benjamin. Sorry. That's right. Trans people worked very hard to get in touch with Kinsey and Benjamin too. Because we knew we needed, this is in the 40s, the 1940s. And this is before Christine Jorgensen. And then there's Christine Jorgensen.

[00:47:34] And then we start looking at the different medical specialties and how things developed in the different, how did surgery develop? What were the early psychological theories, psychiatric theories? How did we move out of that? Where did the treatment for young people, how did that happen? Because in the early days, nobody would go near anybody who was under 18. It was the same as being in the gay community.

[00:48:03] Gay people, you only met in bars. You had to be over 21 in the States to go into a bar. So nobody under 21 was allowed to be queer. Although they certainly were. And again, that's one of those touch points that people can capitalize on to generate fear about us. But we try to explore those prejudices.

[00:48:26] We try to look at how they have manifested and where they came from and what has been our response. And we just come right up to almost the present day because the manuscript was finished in 2022. But it took a long time to get, it took a year to get through peer review. It had to be, because it's an academic press. So it had to be peer reviewed.

[00:48:52] And then the reviewers made a recommendation to the press whether they should, whether it was worth publishing. Yeah. And they liked it. Good job it was done there. Yeah. Yeah. People might be up with it. Well, it was a lot of work in many years in creation, this book. And is it written for the layperson or is it written for a more academic audience? It's well documented. It's well referenced. But it is written for the layperson.

[00:49:22] And we hope that it will be used as a text in all kinds of disciplines, history, sociology, even medicine. But it's basically stories about people. It's a compilation of a social movement from a lot of different directions. Fascinating. I can't wait to get hold of it. Thank you. I hope you enjoy it.

[00:49:52] I will. It's good as well. It's really important, I think, to understand where we've come from. Because actually, that's quite inspirational in itself, isn't it? The fact that we have setbacks in the UK with treatment under 18s because there's some very poor research that's been accepted by government. But it's interesting to see how, even then, how far we've still come. And it'll swing back again. It will. Exactly. It has to.

[00:50:21] Otherwise, there'll be a lot worse things happening in the world if we haven't swung back. There you go. That's a fact. It is. Look, it's been a joy to talk to you today. It's been a joy to listen to your stories. It's been absolutely fascinating reconnecting with quite such a... And please don't be so modest. You've achieved so much. And I'm sure when we put people on, have a look at the show notes and your profile. They'll see exactly what it is that you've been up to. It's been a joy today. So thank you so much for spending time with us today and have a brilliant rest of the day. Thank you.

[00:50:51] Same to you. Take care. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen?

[00:51:16] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So please, if you can, give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us.

[00:51:44] Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to gillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.