Transvox - Meeting Drew Dalton to discuss International LGBT+ issues

[00:00:07] Hi and welcome back to Transvox. We're joined today by someone I met at a conference back in December. It was a really interesting conference and it was in London and it was in there some sort of, it was a really weird bit of London. I was sitting at the table and I heard this Geordie accent and then across the table was Drew Dalton. Of course, you know, I'm from the North East, he's from the North East. We travel all the way to London bumped into each other. So first of all, Happy New Year, Drew. Thank you for joining us. Happy New Year. Thank you very much for having me.

[00:00:36] It's lovely. And as you can hear, a proper Geordie accent, not my strange one that's been, you know, mashed having left Newcastle when I was 18. So tell us a bit about yourself, Drew. What is it that you do? Yeah, absolutely. And first of all, it was lovely to meet you at the conference. And also, so I am a consultant. I've just set up my own brand new business and which is a little bit scary.

[00:01:02] But I'm also the CEO of Report Out, who are a global human rights organisation for gender and sexual minorities, which we cover all of the world. I document human rights abuses, what's happening on the ground with partner organisations. Background in academia, was an academic for 10 years as a sociologist and criminologist, as a senior lecturer at the University of Sunderland.

[00:01:26] And I've spent 20 years in LGBT, who are I plus activism, really. Blimey, that seems like a long time. And you're only 14. So that's very impressive. I did laugh as soon as you said the University of Sunderland, because of course we all fondly know what that used to be. And as someone who's a staunch Newcastleite, anyone from Sunderland, we're all already singing the songs and casting dispersions, which if you're in this part of the world, you understand.

[00:01:57] So, Drew, that's fascinating. Tell me more about Report Out. So how did you get involved in that? What does that organisation actually physically do? Yeah, so it started five years ago. I founded the organisation. There's not many organisations doing work on a truly global level. There's only a handful, really. And I noticed that the organisations out there, what they're focused on, tend to be things around decriminalisation,

[00:02:26] or they tend to be umbrella organisations such as ILGA and things like this. And there wasn't really an organisation that was working with partners directly on the ground, documenting what was happening, and then taking that information, campaigning with that, as well as educating the general public about what's happening out there. Because, as you know, queer rights are deeply linked. The global and the local always come together.

[00:02:53] So I set up the organisation with a group of trustees, with global trustees. In the early days, we had seven volunteers. We're now close to 100 across 40 different countries, and we're global majority led. So 65% of our volunteers are from the global majority, as it should be. And it's wonderful to see our growth over the time period as well.

[00:03:17] So, like I said, an office with no windows at the beginning originally, and there's a tiny little group of small but dedicated, North East-based volunteers, and then we just grew. And so five years later, we celebrated our birthday last October in 2024, you know, blew out a candle, gave some awards out to volunteers and thought, where have we come? Yeah. So it is, but I love it. I absolutely love it. None of us are paid for what we do.

[00:03:46] We're doing it because we're dedicated and we enjoy it. I'm very proud to say that we pack a punch as an organisation for the size of what we are, and considering we have no paid full-time or part-time staff doing what we do. So the types of things that we do do, for example, are we have worked on the ground with an organisation in Uganda,

[00:04:09] for example, one of our first big projects, to do a huge report on what's happening in Uganda to sexual and gender minorities. Not just asking about human rights abuses, you know, the common things like torture, police and state harm, things like this, access to justice and freedom, but also development-led questions like, you know, mental health and poverty and education levels and things like that. So we tried to bring together the human rights frameworks and development frameworks

[00:04:39] to really get a more holistic picture of what's happening out there to people. And that was quite striking because Uganda was going through big changes. And, you know, we've seen the introduction of the Anti-Homosexuality Act, the first country in history, really, to bring back the death penalty for homosexuality or what they call aggravated homosexuality. So that's part of what we do. That's our research side.

[00:05:07] We have a remit for... And Drew, let me ask a question. So what exactly are you researching? Are you researching attitudes to or numbers of people? Just unpack that. Yeah, of course. So we're researching the sexual gender minorities themselves. So other people do social attitudes much better than what we could ever do. We're interested in what's your lived experience? What's actually happening with you on that ground? What trends are we spotting?

[00:05:38] And then more importantly, how can we use that research to better things, to change things? And that brings in some of our campaign side of what we do in our education side. So we have a broad remit to talk about, you know, to the public about, let's educate you what's happening through events and, you know, that kind of nice, wonderful stuff. But we have a really serious side alongside that. Not to say that the education isn't, but it is. But we have a campaign side where we work at the UN level

[00:06:09] to kind of bash some of these countries over the head about what they're doing. So we bring this research forward to the UN, to the special rapporteurs, to the UN processes and things like that, which sounds dry and boring, but it actually makes a difference because countries, no matter whom we are, whether you're Putin or whether you are Erdogan in Turkey, people don't like to be embarrassed on the world stage. And so this is a perfect way to kind of get countries changing, thinking, altering,

[00:06:39] and being held accountable, more importantly. I mean, it's interesting because I've thought so many questions leaping out of my head. I mean, the first is you must have seen over five years, you must have seen a real change. I'm making the assumption, and I guess you've got the evidence to support this, that the change has been gradually more negative over the last five years. I mean, I work in Africa and I've seen that happen. I mean, I've stopped, I have had to stop working in Africa because of the changes there.

[00:07:07] But would you say generally, generally, have things got worse for LGBT rights? It's a really mixed picture. And so we've seen during this, just this five-year period, when I started to report out, we were talking about 75 countries which had criminalised same-sex activity, for example. Let's take that example. Now we're talking about 63. So there's been a shift in that time.

[00:07:35] We're seeing countries like Mozambique who have decriminalised, Burundi, we've seen go through some changes. We've seen Sudan remove the death penalty and public whipping. There has been, and that's just a continent of Africa. So there have been some really good positive changes on the whole, but I think inflamed by social media, the social attitudes have become more divisive in parts.

[00:08:02] They've become what's been called hot homophobia, a real kind of tension where you're more likely to be at risk of mob violence and community harm than perhaps you are harmed by the state in some parts of the world.

[00:08:43] Right. So it's a mixed picture. I think there's, if I can go on, because I can talk about ages about this. If you look over at other parts of the world, like parts of Latin America, they're quite leading the way with many things and they're doing quite well. Asia is slowly starting to warm up. So we've seen Thailand pass same-sex marriage. And because everyone views Thailand as this wonderful liberal place, but it is if you're tourists, it's not if you're Thai.

[00:09:12] And so we're starting to see progress in Thailand and we're seeing rumblings in Singapore, which is decriminalised. And so this change is happening for the good. However, last year, as you know, was the year of the elections and we saw 75 plus elections around the world. And unfortunately, the people who tend to be coming into most power now are leaning toward the right. And so what that means for sexual and gender minorities is going to be really interesting.

[00:09:42] And I worry about some of the very recent news updates about social media billionaires and what they have planned for, in particular, the USA. Yeah. Because I'm guessing at the moment the USA has been pretty liberal. But I mean, we're seeing legislation happening on a daily basis there. Yeah. I mean, this is an impossible question, but it's interesting that in parts of the world

[00:10:10] you've got decriminalisation going on and you've got criminalisation and you've got this phrase, hot homophobia. That's something that's quite interesting. What's underneath it? What's underneath those social changes, would you say? Is it a political will? Is it down to an enlightened individual? Well, I mean, because this is the source of hope, isn't it? Understanding what's underneath it all. Yeah. I think there's a few different factors going on here.

[00:10:38] I think the younger demographics are far more connected globally and tend to be much more open and liberal-minded. So even in parts of countries where that homophobia is very hot, we're seeing younger demographics come through with much more well-informed opinions. I think that's helped by, in many ways, ironically, social media and globalisation, you know, connecting people together and all that jazz. I think what's really helped some governments is that it's geopolitical.

[00:11:08] Some countries are purposely representing themselves as not being another country and they use soft power to do that. And one of those ways are women and LGBTQI plus rights. So I'll take a case study, if I may. So Russia, as you know, is a nation, what's called, cold homophobia. It's not necessarily going to beat you up in the middle of the street by the government, but the government is going to slowly restrict your life in as best way as possible.

[00:11:38] It's not that hot stuff where you're going to be beat up by your communities necessarily. So Russia has clamped down under Putin now for, well, close in particular since it fell out over NATO. And as a result of that, we've now seen the most horrific stuff. As you know, you can't get gender affirming care in Russia. I think that was the cruelest one that they struck in. It started off as being about protecting children. Then it became about protecting adults.

[00:12:07] And Russia is just getting worse and worse. And I asked a Russian activist, why is it that they don't just criminalize people again? And he said, well, Russia will never do that. He said the reason being is that they want to be perceived as the protector against the West, not something where you're criminalizing ordinary Russians. And I thought that was really interesting. So what you've got on the flip side of Russia is next door Ukraine.

[00:12:35] So Ukraine are now, public attitudes are changing. They're desperate to show themselves as not being Russian, despite being a Russian-speaking country in part. They were heading down the same path in 2014. It looked like they were going that way before the revolution. And then now it's suddenly changed. There's queer fighters in the military. People are coming closer and closer at the contact with people. There's a whole unicorn brigade who are made up of queer fighters as part of the Ukraine army.

[00:13:02] And now you're getting discussions about bringing in civil partnerships and same-sex marriage. And it's all distancing techniques. So it's really geopolitical, a lot of it. So it's the winds of change. And a bit like what, on the same level, what's happened with China and Taiwan? Taiwan is, in Asia, the most liberal place to be queer. It really is brilliant. But it's also setting itself apart from China. It uses, you know, soft power help.

[00:13:31] So that's not to take away from all the hard work that activists do, because it does definitely play a part. And we do. But there's also other factors you also have to take into consideration. What's our country looking like right now? How are we being used as pawns or mobilized as pawns? Yes. And how can we sometimes take advantage of that? Yeah. And underlying it all, what's going on is the sort of fundamental driver.

[00:14:01] Is it a religious thing? Is it a social attitudes thing? Is it a power thing? What is the case? What is the thing that drives queer hatred? You know, to the extent where some countries are doing. I mean, you imagine on a scale of one to six, all the things that most organizations or countries have to think about. You would imagine that homophobia would just be nowhere near the top of those things. And yet, if you look at states, it's one of the first. I mean, apart from taking, you know.

[00:14:31] Trump designed to copy Putin to take over all the bits of the world that he's got his eyes on. The next thing is transphobia. So it is odd. So are we a distraction? Is that why? Is that what's the cause of it? Or is there a fundamental distaste for the idea of homophobia in the world, do you think? I think in some parts, I think we're a wonderful distraction. It goes back to some of the geopolitics. We're useful at election times.

[00:14:58] As a lot of my sub-Saharan Africans activists will say, we fear election time because that's when we get used the most. I think that is in part homo bi-transphobia in all of its forms. I think the world becomes more scared when binaries appear to be broken apart. And I think that very powerful leaders don't want to see the loss of control.

[00:15:22] And with their view tradition as a source of control, despite that tradition actually not being the real tradition. So in many parts of the world, we speak of opposite sex marriages as being the norm, when in actual fact, before colonialism in some parts of the world, that wasn't the case. And there's whole countries out there with third genders and things like this, like Panama, for example.

[00:15:51] And yet at the same time, those leaders fear a loss of what they perceive to be tradition. And it's often held under that. And it's really homo-transphobia, bi-transphobia hidden under that, isn't it? It's just an excuse for them to then weaponize us and use us, which we see time and time and time again. So that's part of it.

[00:16:14] Religion plays a part in that too, because religion obviously as a structure, not necessarily individual belief, doesn't want to lose its own sense of tradition. There are flocks of people in the West who are leaving churches, which is why the Vatican's made very confusing statements over what it means to have gender-affirming care versus practicing same-sex relationships or partnerships. It's fearing that loss of control.

[00:16:43] And then other parts of the world where, I mean, we think of the USA as a very evangelical-led country with its churches. But actually, people are leaving the churches there. The younger ones are. So they've turned their attention to sub-Saharan Africa. And they're funding well-funded, very slick campaigns to bring up this whole notion of African traditionalism, which is very different to what traditionalism really was in Africa. But they're using that very cleverly to make that a binary, male, female, your children.

[00:17:12] And that's how it's always been when we know actually people practice polygamy and had many wives and or husbands and mixed family groups. And so, but it's being used. I think it all comes down to a fear of loss in my view. And I think when gender is also seen as something that is all of a sudden being separated and made hazy, that's when I think homophobia really, and or transphobia really erupts out of this.

[00:17:43] Yeah, interesting. Where does the world stand on the use of the word queer at the moment? So forgive me for what seems like a trivial question, but this is actually quite a contentious word. Because I don't know if it's me that's been using it or you, but where are we with that? It's usually me. I tend to use this as well. So it could have been well-being me. It's an interesting one, this one, isn't it?

[00:18:07] Because this is, I mean, when I was growing up in the 80s, queer was a bad word. You were queer bashed. It was never a good thing. I know there's a lot of people my age and above, I would say, and I'm 45, so maybe people from 40s onwards who remember queer as being a very negative word. And with connotations. In the West, because it's a very Western term.

[00:18:36] I think for a lot of younger people, they've really claimed it because they're like, it's an umbrella term. It covers everything and doesn't pigeonhole you into an identity politic. That, you know, I'm a bisexual man or I'm a whatever we want to call ourselves. It doesn't do that. Queer allows that free form expression. But I think with other parts of the world, what's interesting is we're seeing a trend in other parts of the world that never used that term using that term. So you've got people in China who call themselves queer now.

[00:19:06] Really? Who never did. Never did. Previously. They're younger. They're all younger. And I've just found that interesting change. Yeah. And it is interesting as well, because that word is interesting. It's a sort of sign of younger generations. You talk about younger generations born libertarian. I mean, not always in the States. I mean, that's one of the things that's been a challenge, isn't it? It's been a lot of young, I think particularly young men who are more on the right. But it's interesting, isn't it?

[00:19:36] So you have this sort of queer community. And there are other issues which affect that community as well. People talk about climate change and social policy and such like. And I'm guessing there must be some sort of correlation, a link between the work you do and the work, the climate action groups and such like. I'm guessing. Is that the case? Yeah, I've actually written and published about this quite a bit.

[00:20:02] It's because the I think as queer communities, we are on the front line of the climate emergency. We are far more likely worldwide to be made homeless than any other group. So we are baking on the streets. We are at risk of flash flooding. We're on the extreme weather event, bun facing. And then when emergency shelters are put up for us, they're binaried because aid organizations haven't had that relevant training.

[00:20:31] So we hear reports of, for example, Nepal has a third gender. And after a particularly terrible earthquake in Nepal and hurricane, subsequent hurricane as well, the camps were set up as binaries. They weren't allowed in either, which is horrific. And we've got the same things happening again and again in other nation states. So we are actually intimately linked, I think.

[00:20:58] I mean, we claim climate emergency is the great equalizer that affects us all the same. But in actual fact, I don't believe that's the case. I think there are certain groups far more vulnerable out there than others. I mean, if we are certain groups more likely, for example, to be living with HIV because we're higher risk profiles in certain parts of the world, then how are you going to get your HIV medication after your house has been destroyed by a tsunami or a hurricane? And even then, some of it has to be kept in the fridge. Yes.

[00:21:28] So what happens if your power supply goes off? You know, I mean, you're at risk. And especially the homelessness issue. We can't avoid that one. And there was many years ago to study and things have got a bit better now. But there was an interesting documentary about the gully queens in Jamaica and Kingston. They are a group of who receive both ends of state and family hormone by transphobia, and they receive the effects of the climate emergency.

[00:21:58] So they live in Kingston. They're mainly younger. They're tough as hell. I will say that. You don't mess with them. But they're street savvy. They live in the drain shelters in Kingston. But unfortunately, the same, because they've got nowhere else to go. So they practice sex work predominantly in petty crime. They've been forced out by their families and family rejection. The state does not care for them. But at the same time, you've got the intersection of the climate emergency.

[00:22:26] Those drain gullies they live in flash flood. And Jamaica is prone to flash flooding because of rise and sea levels. You can see that all compounded together, can't you? Yeah, it's really interesting. So it is interesting. Because you listen to what's going on in other parts of the world, and you think about what's going on in the UK. And there's a lot of unease in the UK. But in a way, we have to remember that actually we are still streets ahead of the conditions in our community that other parts of the world

[00:22:55] are experiencing at the moment. And maybe being eroded clearly is. Is there still hope for the UK, do you think, based on what's going on? Or do you think it's going to get worse before it gets better? I always have hope. I wouldn't do this if I didn't. I think the UK has always made... I mean, when I consider what the UK looked like 50 years ago, I think we've come a long way in a short space of time. I think, but especially for lesbian women, gay men.

[00:23:26] I speak as a bisexual man here. And I know where streets behind is a community, the transgender community. I've currently been weaponized and have gone through hell and back. And so I don't think it's an even playing field necessarily. I do think there's a little bit more hope perhaps with the change in government. I've seen some positive signs there. I speak to politicians as part of what I do.

[00:23:53] There are some definite supporters of the LGBT plus community in there. There is going to be the banning of conversion therapies, and it's going to be trans inclusive, which is wonderful. It's also going to include, we hope, prayer and exorcisms and all the other versions of conversion therapies there, which are part of it too. So it's looking like there's some progress. I just wonder what the wins of other countries will do.

[00:24:23] Yes. Because it's all linked, isn't it? I mean, the billionaire, as I said earlier, the billionaire social media Mongols, who can preach messages from, oh, blimey Musk and all sorts. And recent changes I'm seeing to meta with Facebook and Instagram are quite concerning. So what types of narratives will come out of that that might influence the British public? But I did read an interesting survey a while ago

[00:24:52] and our British social attitudes continue to get better with LGBT, QI plus people. I think we're still conservative with a small c. Yeah. And so I think overall nobody would dispute most rights, I think, for the majority population, other than a noisy minority. Yes. But also, I also think we've got the slight thing about, how can I put it, Johnny Foreigner, and the fact that Elon Musk is South African, of course, of all things. Yes.

[00:25:23] We're not very keen on being lectured as British people, as by other people. And this is actually quite peculiar, isn't it? Because people like reform, they work on this idea that we don't want to listen to foreigners. And of course, then when it's a foreigner who's an ally in such, like, I still think some of that hangs around for us. So I've seen a lot of negativity towards the Musk comments in this country. And, you know, they sort of, you know, people, I think it's the best thing for Starmer's popularity at the moment

[00:25:51] that Musk hates him and Trump hates him, because obviously suddenly we're saying, well, we may hate him, we may not like him, but he is one of ours. And, you know, so I think that's really important, because I think there is something about us, there is something about us being part of something, isn't it? And there's a lot of drives to separate the, you know, our own community from the rest of the LGB and all the other letters. And I think there's, you know, it's quite interesting. We see this pulling apart of communities and separating them

[00:26:21] and such like, and I think that's quite important. As Brits, we stay together. I think there's a sense of decency and fair play that we've always had that. It would be a shame to lose. And I don't think there's a lot of appetite to lose it, unless through indifference, I suppose. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I think we do have that. I mean, it's not to say we're perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think in recent years, we've been more driven apart, I think, than ever as a community.

[00:26:51] I think now is the time to look around the world and go, blimey, there are some big villains out there now. We need to be pulling together a lot more than we ever have. But I think, you know, if that means reaction to Musk and a little bit more loyalty to Starmer, then that's not a bad thing. Well, I mean, we know that democracies are under threat. And, you know, we're one of the original democracies, well, not the original democracies, but original modern democracies.

[00:27:20] And it's, I think, I find it quite odd that we're literally listening to the noise of fascism, something we heard 100 years ago, and we're seeing it all coming back again. And someone, someone, someone is going to notice soon because actually people dared to use the term about Trump. And it's very interesting how many people agreed because that's what's going on, really. Erdogan and, I mean, they're all Putin puppets because Putin wants to, you know, drive the coalition against him apart.

[00:27:49] So it's quite fascinating. But, I mean, we're living in interesting times, as they say, which is what the Chinese say, don't they? But in the midst of all of this, you've decided to set up your own consultancy in the midst of all this hoo-ha. So, I mean, Drew, what's going on? Tell me about it. So this was a bit of a risk. So I'm excited about it. I'm nervous about it. I mean, I'm NGO through and through. And, you know, I've been part of different NGOs for over 20 years.

[00:28:19] And so, for me, I have that bleeding heart. Like, oh, I couldn't possibly make a profit from people. And that was the biggest step for me to change that mindset. Excuse me. Sorry, I had a cough. So I came out of academia for after 10 years. And through was involved with charities, obviously on route. But came out of academia. Loved it. Enjoyed it. Was great. Needed a change. And then thought, okay, let's get a consultancy business set up.

[00:28:49] Let's put everything I've got from those 20 years into one thing and start helping support the people out there. Importantly, supporting charities, supporting organizations, helping community groups. Putting some of the stuff I've held in the classroom out into the public. Offering short courses. Getting people on opportunities to do. Courses that we never think about doing is one of my big aims here. Once they aren't freely available to people, and if they are, they're behind a university wall.

[00:29:18] So I want to make my own version of them for people to do and to study for a tiny fee compared to what you'd have to pay normally. Well, I mean, you're talking about having a bargain. I mean, you know, you're talking my language now. Yeah, you've got to be done. You know, why pay hundreds and hundreds of pounds if you pay a small amount and just learn something new? Because, you know, we're humans, but we have a lifelong love of learning, don't we? It's what keeps our grey matter ticking over. Yeah.

[00:29:47] And you've got a course already launched, haven't you? So tell us about that. I do, I do. So the first course we're launching with is called Global LGBTQ Plus Dangers and Rights. And I'm doing this with my wonderful friend, Ross Oven Reeves, who worked for Stonewall. Oh, okay. Previously. And is now a writer. And so we're working together in delivery of this course. It's the first one. It's eight weeks long. It's no exams or essays.

[00:30:15] Just come along, listen to what's happening, to what's going on in the world, sprinkle in some queer theory and some of the theoretical depth that people want underneath this, to the why this is happening. And looking at the Middle East, let's look at Russia, let's look at parts of Europe, let's look at what's happening with Trump coming into power and so on. What does this mean for us? And get some deeper understanding, I think, of homophobia and transphobia, because we're stuck with this idea that it's just a fear.

[00:30:45] And actually it's not, is it? When you look across the world, it's far more than that. But it's state-led. It's geopolitical. It's deeper than just a simple psychological fear from an individual. And I think we need to get past that understanding of it and unpick it apart and actually find out the depth behind it. Sounds absolutely brilliant. So how do I find out more? And book? Well, you can go to my wonderful, snazzy new website, which is drewdalton.org.

[00:31:15] And if you go on today and onto About Me, No Sorry My Services, you can find it at the drop-down course bookings menu and you can sign up at any point in January. It starts February. Fantastic. And it's an eight-week program, is it? Yes, it is. Eight weeks long, Sunday night, two hours. Come and listen to my wonderful voice. Put you to sleep. Yeah, we need to talk about marketing. That's not the biggest reason for coming.

[00:31:45] We can do hypnotherapy with that. It sounds absolutely fascinating. Well, Drew, look, I mean, you know, what we've talked about is amazing. And I really would love this to be the first of another podcast maybe we do further on down the line because I'd like to find out more about, A, how your new business is going, but also to talk a little bit more depth about some of these international things because I think it's maintaining that perspective is so important, isn't it? Because we do get a bit insular. And actually, it's about thinking internationally

[00:32:11] allows us to understand how important being nationalist, I don't mean nationalist in that bad sense, but how being proud of being who we are. And I mean, as trans people, I'm very proud to be British and as much, or slightly differently, I suppose, as someone who's down in the big market, you know, getting absolutely hammered on a Friday night and, you know, doing traditionally male stuff. And that's what unites us because we've got to find more what brings us together, haven't we? I agree. I agree. And I think that's why I think those links

[00:32:41] between the international and the national are so important. We're not a silo. We're affected by everyone around us. And I think when we can pledge allies and loyalty and support other people out there, that comes both ways. The global stage is quite a wonderful stage to look across because you can see there's those beautiful pockets of people who genuinely want to work for better social change. And it's working, slowly, but it's working. It is. And I think it's that thing as well

[00:33:10] about seeing how other countries... I mean, I was running a course, a leadership programme, some senior execs from Ghana. And I mean, you know, one of them actually stood up and said, and this is, you know, don't be offended by the temper, but this is what he actually said. He said, he introduced himself, I'm the senior director of a massive bank. But I just have to let you know, I'm with the gays. I'm not gay. But I'm with them. I stand with them. And I was thinking, do you know what?

[00:33:38] That's a more pragmatic, practical approach to leadership than I've heard from any of the rest of them who've talked about EBITDA and ROI and, you know, looking after their people and all that other blah. Because actually, that's what leadership's really all about, isn't it? It's about standing up for something. It's about taking a lead sometimes. And I just think sometimes, I remember looking at him and saying, you know, I have, actually it's the most inspiring thing I've heard today.

[00:34:05] Because the personal risk for someone like him is much greater than the risk even that many of us trans people face. Because actually, his whole family could be ostracised and he could be thrown in jail when he gets back. So that's something, isn't it? And there are still people prepared to, to really make a stand on our behalf. There really are. I'll give a little example of that as well, if I may. I had a wonderful student from Nigeria. He was a Catholic priest.

[00:34:34] And he did my module at the time that I was teaching on global homophobia. And he said, I want to do this because I want to give better advice to my congregation. You know, I had a guy who tried to come out to me as gay and I give him bad advice and I regret it. And so I want to make amends. And I was like, that's amazing. It's really easy to paint Nigeria as, you know, just this homophobic, transphobic place. And yeah, actually there's,

[00:35:03] people's attitudes are mixed and complex in there. Absolutely. It's like, it's good to see. I think sometimes we just paint the world as black and white and it's not the case. And we forget that nationalism, that inherent thing that makes a nation state a nation state. I mean, Nigeria is 230 million people now. People forget that. How big Nigeria is going to be the driver of growth potentially for the next 30 years, which is why China are all over it, of course. But the world is different and it's, yeah,

[00:35:32] I think that's absolutely fascinating. You've blown my head. Well, and let's just make sure that people know how to get on your course. It's drewdalton.org and that's the, your website and report out. Is that .org as well? As for more information on the infant international side. Drew, it's been a joy. Thank you so much for joining us today and hopefully it won't be long before the next time as well. Come and tell us how you're doing. Will do. Definitely. Thanks. Speak soon. You take care.

[00:36:03] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk and all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends

[00:36:32] and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So, pleased if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections it's beyond-reflections.org.uk and, but as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to Gillian

[00:37:01] at francevox.co.uk Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.