Transvox - LGBT+ History Month and the Pendulum of Change

[00:00:07] Hello and welcome back to Transvox and hello and welcome to my friend Jenny Harvey who is resplendent in Stoke in a souester and yellow boots. I need to get these leaks fixed, that's the problem, Jill. It's very rainy in Stoke. Well hello Jill and it's good to be back.

[00:00:29] And it's lovely to see it and I know we swing back and forth on many different issues and today we're going to talk about the pendulum of LGBT and trans inclusion because February the 1st marks the start of LGBT History Month in the UK. And I thought it'd be interesting to talk a little bit about it because actually it shows the degree to which the pendulum swings backwards and forwards in terms of attitudes and social attitudes and such.

[00:00:54] And whilst we pretend in no way to be experts on the subject, it's quite nice just to have a bit of a chat about some of the figures and some of the things we know and such. So that I thought would be an interesting thing. I think we should mark the occasion even if we're not going to attempt or even pretend to be experts on the subject. I'm a trade union rep. I spent my whole career pontificating on things I'm not an expert on. So I'm well versed in pretending what I'm talking about. But yes, I think it's an important month to mark LGBT equality in the UK particularly.

[00:01:24] LGBT plus always must remember the plus. But I think this year's theme is really interesting for us, Jill, because it's activism and social change. And I think the analogy of the pendulum is definitely true over the last few decades. We've seen progress and regress, haven't we? Do you know what? As you said that, and yes, it's true, but I always get confused between the difference between a metaphor and an analogy. So sorry about that. I got myself slightly distracted mentally on that one. I don't know.

[00:01:54] It was a good slick intro anyway, Jill. I liked it. Yeah. But yes, interesting because I was actually quite surprised. I've heard of LGBT history and obviously LGBT history because the history goes back thousands and thousands of years. People say we've always been around. You remember most history, don't you, at your age? At my age, yes. I can remember the Qing dynasty in China in the 1600s and back to ancient Rome, apparently when it was all happening.

[00:02:21] Basically, if it moved, there was an orientation towards it. But I think I was quite surprised, actually. I think the actual formalisation of LGBT history month was in the States at some time. But it only really happened, I think, in 2005 in the UK, didn't it? So it's relatively recent. In fact, actually, isn't it? It must be its anniversary this year, in fact. Yeah, absolutely. It's the 20th year, 2025.

[00:02:50] 2005 was the year I transitioned as well. And to my shame, I don't remember LGBT plus history month at that time. Yes, in some respects, it's relatively new. The term LGBT is this century, isn't it? It wasn't being used in the 90s. So inevitably, it's quite new. But I think it's grown with the eye. We have Black History Month as well. We have Disability History Month. So throughout the calendar, there's History Month celebrating equality, celebrating diversity.

[00:03:20] And I'm just so pleased that we have LGBT History Month because it gives us a chance to really showcase that fight for equality. Yes. And it's quite interesting because the two people that founded the... I think it was up and running in the States, somewhere in Missouri or Minnesota it started. But it was interesting because in the UK, it was started, I think, by an organisation called Schools Out. Right. And Sue Saunders, who was a very famous lesbian at the time, and a guy called Paul Patrick started it.

[00:03:47] And I have to say that Paul Patrick came from South Shields, which is very close to me. So I'm just going to say this is another thing that the Northeastern population has gifted to our community. So that's pretty good, isn't it? Yeah. The Geordies are leading everything, in my view. I love them. And for this particularly so. I didn't know that. I didn't know those names of the two people that started it. Yeah. I surprised myself, actually, because I used to know someone... I used to work with a woman called Sue Saunders.

[00:04:17] Actually, Sue Saunders. Tell me. Forgive me. But I think we often think that LGBT History started with Stonewall. And that's not true because it's been around for thousands and thousands of years. The whole concept of lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans people has been around as long as people have been around. And people say from the dawn of time, that's not quite strictly accurate, but certainly since human beings have been around. But we do tend to have this idea that it started with Stonewall.

[00:04:42] But it is interesting that, actually, a lot of the movement was driven by feminism, especially in the UK. But particularly in the 20s, when the fashion was for male and female clothing to swap around. And then, of course, with people's roles, traditional gender roles in both wars, First and Second Wars, then actually what was quite interesting is the way that females were thrown back into their female gender roles after the Second World War.

[00:05:09] And people were coming back from work and saying, we need to reclaim our proper male gender roles. And in a sense, that's where the concept of the social concept of gender started to really rear its head was in the World Wars. And I thought that was quite interesting when I was discovering that for myself. And that led on to things like Stonewall and such. I think so.

[00:05:31] But I know that because I was reading this just recently, I know transsexualism, that's a term we don't use now, was being widely academically discussed prior to the Second World War. And in fact, I was reading this, some of the first books that the Nazis burned were books on transsexualism and surgery, because there were studies about those in Germany. That predates the war. But you're right, I think all that led up. And the history does go back.

[00:05:57] I think Stonewall is a touchpoint, because it's that pivotal, in a sense, civil rights event that brought that big spotlight to the struggle. Because there had definitely been some progress up to that point. But yes, I think it's almost become a touchstone, hasn't it, for the start of the civil rights movement more widely, I think. And so everybody refers to Stonewall. And obviously, the charity is named after the riots. There were riots, weren't there, in the Stonewall Inn? Yes.

[00:06:27] It was late 60s. You'll know this. 69, isn't it? It better dates than me. 69, yeah. It was late 60s. But I think that was almost a kickstart, wasn't it? In many ways, that fight back against depression. It was gay liberation at the time would have been used, wouldn't it be the term? It wouldn't have been an LGBT term. Even though, I think, as we've always said, there were trans people as part of those riots. Because trans people were always part of the community, in one way or another, as outsiders. It's a community of outsiders sometimes.

[00:06:56] And so we've always been outsiders. But yeah, I think it's... Go on. Oh, sorry. Go on. No, I think you're right when you say it's not all about Stonewall. But I think Stonewall is a useful starting point in terms of, in a sense, our lives. I was born the year before Stonewall. So it is a good touch point in that respect. I think one of the things that intrigued me when I was thinking about this subject was that,

[00:07:21] because in the UK, we had the Buggery Act of 1533, which made all homosexual sex acts illegal. And actually subject the death penalty until 1861, which is quite amazing. But apparently there were things in 17th century London called molly houses. Have you heard of this? This is a place where homosexual and or cross-dressing men could meet each other and other sexual partners. And they used to have mock weddings. Some of that seems to be performative and such like that.

[00:07:51] It's absolutely fine. But it is interesting how in England, when we talk about the pendulum, that was a thing. And that was a thing when the death penalty was around for homosexual sex acts out. So that molly houses were certainly not prosecuted. And they weren't encouraged. But they were certainly there. And of course, what you had of people, famous homosexuals, Oscar Wilde, Alan Turing, who were part of the culture, noted people who are homosexuals. Not trans people, obviously. But we're part of that community, aren't we?

[00:08:19] And it's important to recognise some of the things that happened on all behalf. No, absolutely. When I do training, I always mention Alan Turing because I think it's interesting. He was basically persecuted to his death, wasn't he? Oh, he was castrated. Yeah, he got the truth of that. Yeah, it was either that or go to prison. And he ended up taking his life. But I think why it's so interesting is that he is within our lifetime. He is within our generation. So when he passed, it was in the 50s, I think, late 50s.

[00:08:48] But we now have him on a bank note. That shows everything about this. If you're looking at societal change, that somebody was persecuted to his death is now celebrated in a way that there are only five people are in the whole of the UK. He's been on a bank note. I think it's a 50-pound bank note. I haven't actually seen any of those. But that's just to say how he's revered now and how he wants treated.

[00:09:11] I think that change, even though it feels like a long time, the 60s, 50s, it isn't because it's in our lifespan. And it's a massive change that we can now celebrate people. I mean, I remember talking about the World Cup was held in Qatar recently, wasn't it? And there's a lot of righteous anger about that because it's illegal to be gay in Qatar. And it was illegal to be gay when England held the World Cup in 1966. Yeah, that's true.

[00:09:41] Because I think it was a year after it was decriminalised. We can be righteous, but actually it's still a relatively short space of time in the big picture to see how far we've come. And I think that context is worth thinking about when we're struggling as we are now with some of the attacks on our community. What's interesting about that, of course, is the next World Cup, I think, is in the States, isn't it? Of course, judging by what's going on in there could well be criminalised. It's not yet.

[00:10:10] Massive, massive campaigns to wipe out certainly the trans community at every level, including removing. So basically, a bunch of them swinging back there. There's going to be some quite interesting issues, I think, when we arrive back there. But I think this is the sign of things swinging backwards and forwards. It's almost as if... But yeah, because you can definitely see that. Because I think the... So if you... Where I say... I don't know if you think about this. The attacks we've got now on trans people and the wider LGBT community, because they're using trans to attack everybody.

[00:10:40] The last time this happened in the UK would have been, I don't know, Section 28, wasn't it? In the 80s, where they had a gay panic about kids in schools thinking gay is okay to be gay. It's nuts. Seems so weird now. We've seen that pushback in the UK before. And ultimately, it doesn't survive because progress continues. I do think it will. I think even though that pendulum swings back, it swings in the positive direction more so each time.

[00:11:08] And that's my optimism on this. Because whatever we think, where we are now is not as bad as where we were in the 1950s, right? So we have made progress. But you're right. It does feel like it's a three-step forward, sometimes stumble backwards. I don't know. Yes, I think it's true. But I think lessons from history are always there to be learned. And I think, like you say, the issue is, of course, the genie has come out of the bottle, hasn't it?

[00:11:38] And I think the good thing is that I like your point about every time the pendulum swings, it swings in a more extreme fashion. So it's pretty extreme now. But I suppose the implication of that is that the next time it swings in our favor, it might go even more positively towards us. And the thing is, we were very close to getting self-ID with Theresa May. We were so close. And had that happened, I don't think we'd be having a lot of the fuss that we're having today because it would have been on the statute books.

[00:12:06] Now, of course, it could have stimulated even more hoo-ha. But I do think it's, I think that was an interesting moment that was missed there. Or we may look at it as a blessing because it didn't hit the statute books. It didn't become quite as obvious. It didn't become as widely attacked in this place. So I think the lessons from history show is that what happens, there tends to be intense repression. Then it unlocked and lots. There's huge amounts of freedom. There's general acceptance.

[00:12:36] And then the community, the whole LGBT plus community is used as a sort of a kicking stone, either because of religious context or because actually we're a massive distraction. There's a real philosophy, which is that you create things that people can fight about, like immigration and trans rights and LGBT rights. And when people are focusing on those things, fighting each other, that change has slipped through without people noticing it. And I think that's what we're seeing in the States at the moment.

[00:13:03] It serves capitalism for us not to be thinking about bigger inequalities, other inequalities. But I think that's right. It is. I think what happens is there's overreach. They tried it in America with the bathroom bans. That didn't work. And they're now trying it again. And some states are going. But other states in America are not and holding the line and actually improving rights. And we're seeing that in Europe as well, where things have been difficult in the UK. We haven't seen progress.

[00:13:31] We haven't seen, in a sense, any legislation pushing us back. But there's been that tussle. But other parts of Europe, we are seeing some progress. I think Germany is starting to see some progress. And I've talked about Spain as well. So you are seeing that tussle. And I suppose it can remind us with the arguments over equal marriage. I always think about that. And at the time, that was a hard-worn-fought debate.

[00:13:54] And actually, you see very little discourse in the UK or politically against equal marriage. Yet it was a real battle. And that was in 2015, equal marriage was passed. I think it was 10 years ago. But literally within a couple of years, it became very normal and very boring. The fact that equal marriage is there and same-sex couples can get married.

[00:14:20] Yet, if you think about the debate on it, it was really hard-fought. And so that's an example, I think, of ultimately people go, oh, it's not really a big deal at all. And it's a distraction, as you said. It is not affecting people's lives in the majority. Trans people, for instance, are having no negative effect on anybody else in this country. They aren't. There's no... What's also interesting is the speed changes in different countries, doesn't it? I was reading an article this morning.

[00:14:50] Why is it published? It's called... It must be a Scottish newspaper because it's the national.scot. And there's an article there that the Cass Review transgresses medical law and policy in the US. And it's that thing about we've moved faster than the US. In fact, the US are often using the Cass law to justify some of the stuff they're doing. But they're basically saying that would never have got through in the US because of the level of bias.

[00:15:17] And it transgresses many of the freedoms and such like they go on with the US. So it may well be that the US will overtake us in terms of trans exclusion and anti-trans sentiment. But we may reverse. I think in many aspects of civil rights activism, the US being the biggest, such a big country, a lot of them have come from there. So you look at that, they had a fight over... And they needed to over civil rights for the racism, what was there. Yeah. And Selma and going on, Martin Luther King.

[00:15:46] And it's been the same. I think they had states that were having equal marriage before we did. Some states, I think the thing is with America, you think about it as a whole. And it isn't, is it? They're all so different. California is so different than Mississippi. Wasn't the Netherlands the first country? The Netherlands was the first country. I was looking at a map the other day and I forgot it. The Netherlands was the first country to have equal marriage. And I sort of remember that being in the news. And then it started to creep in across other countries.

[00:16:14] And as I say, I think... 2015 in the States. Yeah. I don't know the whole of Europe has equal marriage. Western Europe. I know some countries in Eastern Europe certainly won't. But it's certainly not far off. And as I said, it always struck me. This is the one thing that always struck me about that fight. And that was a big fight for equal marriage. I remember it at the time when we were involved in some of those campaigns. Because it was on a knife edge with it to get passed. And then I was on... I've talked about...

[00:16:42] I was on Question Time about 10 years later. And there was a UKIP person on the panel. And they were asked a question about equal marriage. And the UKIP, who were vehemently homophobic in what they talked about. Their leader, Nigel Farage, said that two men kissing, he felt disgusting or whatever. He used a phrase once. So clearly they've had those policies. But the UKIP person said, yeah, we were wrong on the side of history. It's no big deal. And it struck me there.

[00:17:10] You've got somebody within just a few years of that law being passed. I remember that equal marriage. Because I was in a hotel in London when they were having the debate in Parliament. And it was on a knife edge because it was a Tory government. But they needed Labour votes because not enough of the Tories are back there. And I remember because my MP got up and spoke in the debate. He was a Labour MP who I knew. And he spoke against equal marriage. Did he? Yeah, he said. Rob Flellow, his name was, MP. He stood up.

[00:17:39] So not only did he vote against it. My MP stood up and said, I don't think there should be equal marriage. He was on the wrong side of history. He cited his religion. Of course. Whatever reasons. But I just think it's really interesting because I don't hear any discourse anymore about there being any issue with equal marriage in this country. Oh, it's very quiet. I think they're talking about unwinding it in the States now. Yeah, you're going to get some of that in some states. But it will be some of the states. And it will be.

[00:18:07] But I don't know whether all that will succeed ultimately. Because, as I say, they didn't succeed with the bathroom bills, really. They got blocked. There were some blockages. It's difficult because you've got a really bigoted Supreme Court, it seems to me. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. I think it is analogy or metaphor. That pendulum on everything. I suppose it's true for every part of life and society. There is progression. And then sometimes it's a step back.

[00:18:34] It's probably the same in most of what we look at. So I think we're in a difficult patch at the moment. It feels like our rights are being challenged rather than made better, doesn't it? It does. What's fascinating is, of course, because I'm in the LGBT or trans zeitgeist and very switched into some of this modern activism because I'm carrying some of the load at last. But it's fascinating. When you look at the wider media, there's no mention of it at all.

[00:19:02] And actually, it's pernicious the amount of federal bathroom bans, statewide bathroom bans. There's a heck of a lot going on. And actually, we're already seeing cis women being caught and being swept into this thing. In fact, but it's been dwarfed by what's happening in immigration, of course, because we're now finding people. I think there was a statement on the news today around two or three people speaking Spanish who were swept up and taken to the police. And this is going to happen.

[00:19:31] You know, we're going to find that the people who suffer most are the people who are probably the people who, I think, didn't one of the turfs get swept up in this in the States? And weren't they challenged in a bathroom about being there because they didn't look particularly feminine? And I think this is what's going to happen. Never mind hundreds of trans men sweeping the female loose. No, but I don't. Maybe you call me naive. I think none of that is ever going to happen. They're not going to be. These things are being reported.

[00:20:00] They're having occasions. But ultimately, those lost, they will fail because they're unpoliceable. They're unworkable. Unless you do genital examinations, you've no way of, there's absolutely no way of doing it without, as you said, sweeping up people who are not the target of hateful law. But also, it's just unworkable. It just doesn't work. As you said, nobody's going to accept trans men going into women's toilets.

[00:20:28] Nobody's going to, nobody has a real, there are never any real problems with trans women using women's toilets. So it is all nonsense. And I think what happens with this is they try and overreach and then they realize it's unworkable. And it's unworkable to make, ultimately in this country, it's unworkable to make it illegal to practice homosexuality. They had to change the law because it's just unpoliceable and unrealistic when actually society is ahead of the law. And I think that's what they'll find. You find this pushback, but ultimately it won't survive.

[00:20:57] Section 28 didn't survive, did it? Because it ultimately was wrong and unworkable. So that pendulum, when they introduced something to say, oh, we can't tell kids it's okay to be gay, was immediately, ultimately ended because it was unworkable. You can't, you said the genie's out of the bottle. And you couldn't introduce it now because kids are, we have the internet. You can't suppress view, you can't.

[00:21:23] I mean, it was horrible when you realize when I was at school that I didn't know Section 28 was in play. So I didn't know that these things were being kept from us because we just didn't know as kids. When you look back on it, you think, gosh, that was awful. I genuinely think, and maybe you call me naive, and this is me being positive, all this stuff will not, it's unserious, unworkable, and ultimately will fail.

[00:21:50] Things like trying to ban, you know, trying to make people use the toilets over there, a sex sign, sex at birth, it just can't work. And you're right, people will get swept up into it because it would have to be based on aesthetics, wouldn't it? And that would be based on what you look like. You can't work, that's unworkable. They're trying their best in some of the states. But I'm very pleased you're being so positive because it's usually the other way around. It is usually, but I am on this because I just think they overreach. They just, they try and overreach.

[00:22:20] And ultimately, people don't, most people don't really care either. And it's a conflated argument. You can look at it over. We're just speaking two days after a horrible plane crash in America, where you've got a president whose response is that he blames diversity, equity, and inclusion as the reason why the plane crashed. Pretty much. He said, we don't know, but he says it thinks it's because they might be hiring too many people who are different, who are not white men, is the subtext.

[00:22:48] I think ultimately people will realize it's just so ridiculous as to be laughable. I don't know. Maybe that's, maybe I'm in a positive mood, Jill. That's, maybe. You still haven't read Project 2025, have you? That's the trouble. Yeah. But again, it's overreach. It's got no support ultimately with the population when they actually look. The whole thing, the whole of Trump being elected is based on vibes and people thinking he's doing their own thing.

[00:23:14] But they don't really, people haven't really voted on policy and when you have a look at all those policies, they're not supported by the population. So it will fail, I think, ultimately. It might take a few years. Have you heard this new term called Vichy America? When in Hitler times, when they took over France, yeah, and the Vichy government were there too. What they're basically saying is now there's just people capitulating to Trump, including the Democrats, and there's a sort of Vichy, I hope they're calling it, that's right,

[00:23:42] they're calling it New Vichy, formerly Washington DC. It was an article in The Guardian today, I thought it was quite funny, and scarily prescient. Yeah, it is. I'm not diminishing how terrible things are at the moment. But they will, I think they will overreach. That's ultimately the, it sounds like I'm diminishing, but any, and I regard Trump's views as fascist in nature.

[00:24:08] I do regard what he reports to believe in is fascist when he wants to blame any other people. And it's a deported, mass deportation is a fascist tool, right? But ultimately, fascism fails, always does, ultimately. I just don't, it's just how many people are harmed for what happens. Sorry? Only with war. I don't know, and I don't know that's, I don't know that's true.

[00:24:34] I did with, in the most famous one, but ultimately, you look at the progress that we've made, the society progress, it, we survived, we survived in this country. So I don't know, maybe I'm naive in my positive, I'm looking big picture. I think it's a terrible time for many people at the moment, so that's not to diminish that. But I think they overreach. And actually, these matters, this, when you're looking at homophobia and transphobia, most

[00:25:03] people are either don't care or are supportive of trans, most people are. They just are. They don't care. It's not affecting their lives. They really more care about that they've got enough money, right? To live, that's what people care about. They don't really care. So I'm still, we survived, look, the last government, what they were trying to do with trans rights, we haven't as yet seen any curtailment of that now.

[00:25:30] I haven't heard that this government are going to revisit the Equality Act. I don't think they will. So even though we're not making progress, we've certainly put a, there certainly has a bit of a stuttering on what was potentially the risk of the last government who were threatening to tear up the Human Rights Act. I think there is reasons to be positive. That reminds me of an Ian Jury song. Yeah, the reasons to be cheerful. There are reasons to be cheerful, part one, two and three. I think, but that's where the activism part of History Month comes in.

[00:26:00] That's where we still need activism. We still need to do everything we can because without it, we will let the hateful people prosper. But I think, and part of activism is being visible and existing. Because you look at trans people, if you do survey, most people who know a trans person support trans people, right? Once they get to know somebody and we're not monsters. I don't know.

[00:26:29] This is rare for me to be the positive vibes. This is a bad sign, Jill. It's nice of you to carry the load. It's good. And it's a nice part of thinking of the pendulum and thinking about the History Month too. I think there's two, three things. One, which is to fuel the hope. But also, it's that thing about you sometimes have to hope for the best and plan for the worst because that's important too. And I think what's interesting about our communities, they're starting to come together. There's starting to be more action.

[00:26:57] There's starting to be more collaborative effort to get groups of trans people and trans organisations and trans activists from across the generations together. And it is happening. And that's a very exciting and encouraging thing. It's education and knowledge that will win it for us as well. Because the story we have to tell for LGBT plus people is one, is a positive story. And I think the more people, the more we're able to do that, whatever work we do. And part of that is just existing.

[00:27:28] The person I think the person I always see is the one, whether we call them an activist or not, was Jan Morris, the author, when I read her book. I think it was Conundrum, I think, which is her story. She was an inspirational woman, a trans woman. And I understand the first person to report from when Everest was climbed. She was a trans woman and wrote a book in the, would have been the 70s. And I read it in the bar, in the library. And that educated me, gave me hope.

[00:27:56] And there's plenty of examples, if you look into, if you could Google about LGBT plus history month, of some of these activists that have changed society and changed the world. And I think we, hopefully, we can be a tiny part of that, Jill. Yes. Good. Have a happy LGBT month, history month. I know you were talking about this subject in other places. Good luck with that. And inspire people. And yeah, let's go get them, Tiger. All right then. Take care. Bye-bye.

[00:28:28] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling

[00:28:55] to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments,

[00:29:22] applause, or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to gillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.