Transvox - Katie Munday talks Neurodiversity

[00:00:00] Hi and welcome back to the next edition of Transvox, no Jenny today but sitting in front of me is Katie Munday so welcome. Hello thanks Pam and Megan. That was a dramatic pause

[00:00:21] is that a big lag or something we would look forward to you think? I think it's a lag I don't know what's going on my agenda. Look, Katie tell us about yourself because

[00:00:33] you and I met on a previous podcast when we talked about the whatever it takes cancer projects but I thought we really wanted to come back and talk about yourself for all sorts of different

[00:00:43] reasons so give us a bit of a pen portrait who you are on what you do. Oh, I'm getting this. This is when I have an existential crisis of who am I? What do I do? You can't remember anything.

[00:00:55] So yeah Katie Munday, use they then pronouns. I am a trans-ware, fat-bad, disabled, multiple neurodivergent person and I do a lot of consultancy training, youth work, coach will chair basketball. I do a lot of things on

[00:01:18] the disabled experiences basically and how do we make disabled people's lives easier? Better more appropriate, more equitable which is why I'm involved with the cancer service research that I'm involved with and that we were talking about the last time I was here.

[00:01:39] So that is really me and a nutshell. I have a little boy. I've got husband. I'm just got my PhD candidacy so I run like spending about 8 million plates because that's kind of where I thrive, maybe. Having a PhD would be really handy now wouldn't it? Yes.

[00:02:02] The productive, productive, was it productive procrastination? So if I have eight or nine different things going on at the same time, I won't necessarily prioritize the thing that needs to be in or should

[00:02:14] be done first. But yeah, maybe I do this thing instead. Let's start with the way this place which is the doctorate. What's the doctorate going over it? My doctorate will be doing at university at Portsworth and it will be on trans and gender-diverse autistic people's

[00:02:35] experiences of health and social care in equity in the UK. Well, you've got plenty to go up there so I did my Masters in Research on Trans and Non-Binary Autistic People's Narratives because there's a very large overlap between being autistic, ADHD otherwise neurodivergent actually

[00:03:01] and trans and this is a lot of research around this area around all this overlap or kind of more medicalised terms of prevalence and stuff like that, co-currents. But not necessarily enough work that actually involves autistic trans people and definitely not enough work on, okay so

[00:03:25] this is actually quite a large group of people within a minority group, within two minority groups. Yeah. Then what can we do to make things better for them? So that's what kind of guides a lot

[00:03:39] it's interesting because I've heard that research in fact we talked about quite a few times on here and it has always been very delicate about it but it is interesting that your point

[00:03:48] into research is one. I think I think what's sort of, I think what's the, I mean there's any seat, is there any reason or not there any sort of prevailing theories why there seems to be a

[00:03:58] high incidence of neurodivergence across the trans population or the wider queer population even. Um, Pennsylvania ask, um, obviously unfortunately trans people and autistic people are still highly pathologised. People you know that we considered to have something wrong with us, we're not doing

[00:04:19] something correctly empathy disorders, various other things said about both sets of people actually. Um, so in in some research is very much, well this pathology exists and therefore they kind of feed into this pathology which is obviously not something appropriate real or helpful to anyone at all.

[00:04:44] But outside of that I've heard of autistic trans people talk about, um, well if neuro normativity doesn't fit me, if society the way it stands now doesn't, I don't fit in that box.

[00:04:58] What are the other boxes that I don't necessarily fit into like, um, if it's socially appropriate that I'm supposed to dress this way, look this way, hold myself this way, talk that way,

[00:05:08] I don't do any of that. What is that? What is, what is womanhood look like and what does manhood look like anyway? They are both culturally bound. But what does that mean when you sit outside outside of that mainstream culture anyway, it's an autistic person? Hmm, interesting. So

[00:05:26] coming here, so obviously we're we're all guests at focus the most in the, on the trans plus community. So but it's quite nice to talk about this other area so if you do a mind of unpacking

[00:05:36] you can look at that. So for those who've never bumped into the term and let's just assume there are three people in the plant at the haven, but let's start there. So what, what do we mean when we talk about neurodivergence or neurodiversity? What,

[00:05:49] what are we talking about there? Nerd divergences basically, it was a term coined by Cassian as a mouto many years ago now and it's basically it encompasses anyone who doesn't fit within neuro normative neurotypical neuro majorative standards. So that could be anything from autism,

[00:06:15] ADHD dyslexia, depression, anxiety, stroke, cerebral palsy, down syndrome, basically. Yeah, OCD entirely, mental health conditions definitely. So that's what I mean when I say neurodivergen that's who diverge neurologically. So it's interesting you put depression in there so why

[00:06:40] was that fit in that bucket? Because it is because mental health conditions are not considered. I suppose it depends where you put neuroanormativity, where you put neurotypicalism, because although a lot of people have depression, have anxiety, have various other things,

[00:07:00] it's not there's a thing around neuroanormative normativity about the ideal, which is not of course brilliant and not helpful but mental health conditions would be outside of that. Not to mention the amount of people who have both mental health conditions and

[00:07:22] spine bifidare or whatever else it might be so they're kind of co-occurring things quite a lot time saying. So I've had to come back to the stability lesson if you don't mind. Yeah, of course.

[00:07:34] Just talk about that as a work. So for those that again don't experience some of these things. So if you're experiencing for example autism, how is that? Because obviously we've seen how

[00:07:46] it manifests but how is that to be an autistic person? Oh, um, it's different from person to person, of course. And instead, um, once you're about what autistic person you're one autistic person. Yeah,

[00:08:00] pretty much, um, it's just, um, for me personally, it's, and this goes with ADHD as well. It's being aware of everything and not being out of filter out anything and then with my ADHD is

[00:08:17] being aware of everything that's going on in my brain but not being able to filter that either. I think that's my biggest thing is being able to pick apart, um, like auditory processing or

[00:08:29] anything like that. It's just very, everything all at once. That's what it feels like to me. Yeah, interesting. And you often see this, um, this manifesto this as people should end down sensory inputs to you and you often notice that or people processing quite deliberately.

[00:08:50] And I think often you can, you can see how, um, you can see how people have defined things like slowness or lack of intellect or something or someone being highly stringing. You can see how these

[00:09:02] words of coalesced around people with neurodivisive conditions and how we can actually strip those words away now because actually it's about processing differently quicker, slower in a different way, in a different reality often. And I think it's, it's how do we, it's how do we create

[00:09:17] inclusive cultures to get the best out of those people? Because actually these people bring A everywhere and, um, it's best that we get the best out of everybody. So why wouldn't we improve

[00:09:30] that a lot? So so broadly, how do we start creating a culture or a situation or a place or where anybody can be sort of welcomed in irrespective of their irreduversity? That was a long question,

[00:09:42] that was a lot of questions. I think my biggest thing and I actually spoke about this on trans actual, I think the last week of week before is giving people choice. We all benefit from

[00:09:56] giving from having choice. So if you're running, let's say, a trans support group community group social group, whatever, um, first of all be aware that there are going to be probably quite

[00:10:10] a lot of neurodivergent people there. And, and even if there's any one or two of us or none of us actually the things that benefit us actually will benefit quite a lot of people and they usually

[00:10:22] relatively easy to do and usually cost not very much. So knowing what expectations are when you go into a room, how many people might be there? Is there like a kind of breakout space where if it's

[00:10:38] loads of people are talking and I can't make sense of what's going on and instead of me exploding it everyone, I can just quite leak out of slimy, wander into this little space wherever

[00:10:47] it is and just kind of get myself together. So I think expectations, choices around communication as well and how often someone might want to communicate whether they don't say anything at all, whether there are passengers sign or even when organizing events, you know, some of

[00:11:09] people prefer emails, text messages, some of us even do fun. It's not me, it's not me, but some of us do fun calls. So I think it's the, I think sometimes people ask that and not suggesting

[00:11:25] that you are but sometimes people ask that where there's almost a list of tickbox things and obviously it's not that simple, but choice is a really, really good place to start and it gives

[00:11:37] autonomy to people coming into your spaces and it makes your practice better. When won't. Yeah and I mean none of the things you said at all wouldn't, would be detrimental to a person with

[00:11:50] not experienced in New York University, would they? I mean it's sort of, it's sort of a good practice and common sense because actually you can't really look at someone and decide you can't

[00:11:59] dig nose of the people in their conditions kind of even. I think this is one of the challenges that people have or a challenge has been created from nowhere, is this need to dig nose?

[00:12:08] Somebody goes back to cycle, cycle, analytical theory in psychology and I think a lot of people who've gone through sort of training, leadership training have been given this really flawed toolkit about how to look someone, understand them and diagnose them and then sort of

[00:12:22] contort themselves into a place where no one's happy because no one's getting anything. Rather than just creating this and add a culture where choices give and take in conversations are hard

[00:12:33] in a way that's just productive and it all seems like common sense to me but the trouble is common says that in all that common is someone famous once. No that's true that's true yeah because I

[00:12:44] feel like we're not I'm not reinventing the world by saying these things I've got like you know some super genius whatever whatever this is just quite usual standard stuff. They definitely see

[00:12:56] works really well and like youth work and stuff so why wouldn't it? Why wouldn't it work when applied to adults you know? Yeah I don't know you're a consultant in this sort of area so what sort of consultancy that you get involved with? One currently working with another

[00:13:12] transorganisation around accessibility and improvements for the voluntary team. I've done things with a university around accessibility for declarations so mine is mostly around accessibility within healthcare or educational various things like that that's a lot of what my consultancy

[00:13:40] around. That's how sick well and you did mention that a huge long list of things that you started with earlier and I can't remember it's probably in the monarchy that you've got organized but you didn't mention disability as well and I just wondered whether it's been

[00:13:55] interesting isn't it so as I spent more time in the trans world we don't seem to talk about disability as much and particularly physical disability and I wonder and I'm going to ask you a really

[00:14:05] cross question so forgive me because I'm saying it on purpose is that because all disabilities disappears or we've sold it all. Why do people with disabilities? Why have you disappeared in the debate? I don't know there were were ever there. Right similar. Are we ever there?

[00:14:24] I think there's this cycle of disabled people or like visibly disabled people however you wanted to swipe that. Not actually being able to go out of their homes and engage in the community

[00:14:46] in whatever aspect that might be. I mean I definitely see that in sport. The coach will share and sometimes people are coming to us and they're like 20s have never played any sport before

[00:14:58] because their schools kind of tried to get them involved in sports or just said to them yeah you know what you've got as part of it for day you're never going to be involved in sports and now

[00:15:08] some of these people play like Premier Division wheelchair basketball. So you see that in all parts of society they're supposed to be inclusive and people talk about quality diversity and inclusion all the time and it's complete nonsense. So loads of these people don't leave their homes

[00:15:26] or find a community of other disabled people and then society kind of thinks that we don't exist because you never see us you never hear from us you never whatever whatever because we're

[00:15:40] kind of and I feel like that's relatively similar with trans communities we kind of look after our own interests because there's a part of me anyways as a trans person that just says no one

[00:15:55] outside of the trans community and my husband cares about me being trans or what that means for me let alone issues like experiences what either of trans and gender diverse communities. So if people stop making things accessible for people you stop seeing disabled people and then people think

[00:16:16] well you don't see many people accessible please anymore well no you don't because we've not made spaces inclusive for everyone so you're you're not gonna see us out of that okay. In fact it's really

[00:16:28] interesting you say that because I talk quite frankly about the fact that I work with an office up here and there's all that I'm who we are about bathrooms, blah blah blah blah I'm what they said to me

[00:16:39] it's just well just use the disabled bathroom because nobody else uses it and I thought well actually that's quite that was quite casually grown into the conversation and I was quite well what would what would be with disabilities being saying if they're you know if they're now sharing

[00:16:58] you know and it's it's it's it was quite a sort of ethical and morals of conundrum now thinking well what what do you do here because of course it's this thing about trading rights again

[00:17:09] isn't it and how I we're all our all trading rights and why would you why would you be happy to take the disability sign off the door and put and share it with a gender genderless image

[00:17:22] it's almost like you know here all the here all the minorities that are collecting down the corals out the way it's like oh cop what we already had to make effort for this group yeah

[00:17:32] and now we've got to make effort for you as well why did you just use the same loot that's what it that's what it feels like for me like does it what haven't we done enough there's one

[00:17:41] accessible toilet here with no toilet by bread yeah and we're gonna hang out with the bloody emergency rope called every time we go in there so if someone does fall off the toilet you can't reach

[00:17:51] that so that's really amazing like isn't that good enough for you people it seems staggering in this age that disabilities would not be just more in the mainstream I mean to think people

[00:18:07] there's always a fuss about people of Paul can disable spaces and such like but you know the more starts are thinking about this is really making me think actually because I'm just looking at

[00:18:16] the rule I mean they're lots of disabled role models but there are some building which have refitted to allow access for real shares and such like in specialty cancel buildings such like but people seem to have vanished I can't decide whether people seem to have vanished because

[00:18:30] actually it's become so much more acceptable that would be combined to the the disability itself so we're treating people more equally does that possible yeah they kind of make sense yeah I don't know that that's lived experience of people though you know so we we talk about things

[00:18:54] quite a lot of wheelchair basketball as you can imagine a lot of people there are all chair uses for various different reasons um yeah and people still get you know the other person

[00:19:06] they coach with it's a full-time wheelchair user and yeah he just gets people staring at him getting out of his cars like just when I get this job mate just just staring at him you know

[00:19:19] because he had the hot one one of his legs and getting his wheelchair out the back of the car and stuff and people just staring it's just like make it just what a good job do you ask what a good

[00:19:28] job and then on the flip side of the hat you know me as a younger person I mean I'm in my 30s but I look about 12 getting out of my little one so the autism oh my my get myself a portion yeah

[00:19:47] you get a bit and yeah and look at me and you know don't have any mobility aids and people just stare at you as if like what are you doing there parking in a parking spot so there's this

[00:20:03] real I only say that because you've got a successful parking but you can imagine that that looks throughout your day it's just all those things pile up around you know like allowing disabled

[00:20:17] people to just carve out their business and do all the boring dirt that we've all got to do all yes but it is pretty much we've taken for granted knowing which much would be great so you know

[00:20:27] I would have stayed whether doing pavements and all pavements at the corners are dropped for wheelchair charks but it doesn't make me laugh that the drop but there's sort of like a three four inch gap

[00:20:35] so you know getting up that would be a challenge but it's almost like we've built in some processes so we don't think about them anymore so which is great for access you know for accessibility

[00:20:48] but I'm wondering how I saw you how you're coping them with being with having that sort of the perfect trifecta chance disability and your a diversity I mean what what does that mean for life

[00:20:59] how practically does that how not for you for me interesting I think the biggest thing for me because I can access quite a lot of things physically which I know a lot of people can't so there's

[00:21:17] a lot of privilege there for me as well but it's there will be spaces I'm openly neurodivergent with everyone like you're going to talk to me for two seconds and be like yeah yeah there's

[00:21:30] something going on there which is totally fine but I'm not openly trans with everyone like that from me seems to be I appreciate that I'm talking on trans podcast and being very open about

[00:21:46] I think but there are parts of my life where if people don't follow me on social media and stuff they just won't necessarily know that's your business so you do what you want really yeah of course yeah so

[00:21:58] so there are some places where I feel safer accepted champion valued whatever as a disabled or neurodivergent person and there are more of those than places where I feel that the same we're being trans and queer but I think also because of the work that I do

[00:22:21] there have been working in the disability charity sector for ten years now so I'm naturally around a lot of neurodivergent disabled people yeah so yeah so I think that's just how it seems to have

[00:22:35] happened for me whereas if I was working on LGBT sector it might have been perhaps the other way around yeah I'm interested in where there's I think where you know we're all kind of intersecting

[00:22:48] identities there are some places where it's safer people to go and be their whole selves but it's not it's few and far between yeah I agree and where the people go so for you suspect you have

[00:23:02] having a don't think people suspect they have autism but the people have it or have a neurodiverse condition where can they find out a good source of support or help factual practical advice to help people with those sorts of situations I can absolutely share links

[00:23:24] or staff or academy which is an online 100% autistic lead training and it's called educational platforms it's all free all the resources are free and they have a resource that says so you think you're autistic and then it kind of goes through a these are the things you might

[00:23:43] hear this is what might happen if you're going for diagnosis then you might need XYZ it's a it's a bit of a one stop shop on if you're going for diagnosis in the UK definitely

[00:23:56] I know I would say to anyone who thinks they're autistic or someone in their life is autistic that the best information you're going to get is from people who are autistic there's an awful lot

[00:24:07] you know if you I made the mistake of googling autism acceptance the other day and I don't know why did it because of the first five hits were just like oh I really didn't want to read any

[00:24:19] of that and it's a lot if you already think oh there's something going on with me and a lot of us experience trauma as well and if you're trans on top of that that's a lot to unravel

[00:24:31] and you know if you're going into gender identity health care having the disorders and diagnosis isn't always helpful because of amelism within that as well for that could be a whole different story in itself, whole different conversation in itself there's a lot to unpack without having to

[00:24:45] work out is this resource useful helpful what is who are these people who are writing this research or this information or whatever what are their intentions who are they funded by that's a lot of things to do. Yeah I think that's really important because I was watching a

[00:25:02] a documentary with Chris Packham on television quite recently and doing that thing where you sit and listen to an hour's television program which was really 50 minutes but you know sort more occasionally dragged out to be an hour where you have sort of autistic people being on being

[00:25:21] a source of entertainment which I just think I find that quite ethically difficult to understand and it might be a good accessibility point for some people but I think having some thought like the the resource you mentioned which will drop into the links I think is really important

[00:25:34] because I think sometimes we just need a steady, a steady informed place that we can go as a beginning point. I like it and I think the point you made there is really interesting

[00:25:44] it's where people going to know autistic people and want to to be able to know more useful to help autistic people and what they're really important. I mean I hear I'm a good old and

[00:25:55] new so I hear these sort of conversations it's say oh yes XYZ has just been told the got ADHD well if you ask me in my day they're just be called being a very naughty boy and

[00:26:08] you hear that time after time because you know just send them out to run around the garden and that'll control them that's the difference between boys and girls when you get that you get

[00:26:16] the whole gamma of just an informed opinion and that's fine because being on informed is is a state people people being informed so it's it's really important that we have those sources

[00:26:29] so what do you say to those sorts of people I mean I know what I say but what would you say to people about what are they're trotting out that old nonsense like ADHD just a very naughty person

[00:26:40] yeah it'd be to yeah depending who are saying it and whether I was at a professional capacity or not but they're just like explain how I experience it like it's not it's not something that's made up

[00:26:55] I feel also like I don't know if I'd say this to someone it depends in what capacity I need them but like there's a great deal of massage and that basis it's itself around you know

[00:27:09] what was said in the sixties around refrigerator mothers and that's what made you know so basically emotionally unavailable mothers although also it was said about vacant dads as well but there's a whole deal of massage and that where women and gender minorities tend to be

[00:27:29] the especially in heterosexual relationships tend to be the sole not the sole care give other although of course they can't be but the main care give a of child so there's a lot of parental blame

[00:27:42] and that still exists now so when you go to parenting courses and various other things before you can get a diagnosis for your child most of the people in that room are going to be women

[00:27:53] so it has it's a real not just all what is it saying about ADHD but also what is this saying about what is the implications of that on people that we might be blaming not only as an ADHD

[00:28:06] considered something that you have to blame somebody for because it's so awful but also who was it that is being blamed here and I wonder who that benefits you know so but we know we know much

[00:28:20] neurodiversity runs through families don't we so it's this is and I think we often have parents looking at their kids and sort of saying you know we're weird this come from you know this

[00:28:32] and then you and it's really quite interesting because you often look at those people and say have you noticed this in each other and they'll always say oh yes you know my partner's this my partner's

[00:28:41] that and he said it was that's where it came from and yeah we know we've got a lack of tolerance anxiety because of the genetic links from anxiety passing through the gingian I think and I think a lot

[00:28:53] of mothers got into that situation saying this is you know this is parents shaming because what you're saying basically is everything to do with neurodiversity is our fault and and surely that's

[00:29:03] not the case but you know there's a huge genetic component to this isn't so if you think about all those people who are being blamed for babies whatever of their their child young person adult whatever

[00:29:19] actually quite a lot of them are undiagnosed neurodivergent as well so it's just shamed piled on to presumably some kind of internalised avalism but also well I did that's when I was a kid and I turned out fine did you that's interesting it's interesting how people

[00:29:48] project project themselves on to their children yeah but it is fascinating you know it talks to a lot of people and say things like that next generation you know the work shy the lazy the work

[00:29:58] for this then yeah the point out to them but you were the people who brought them up yeah where were you on this from yeah when do you think it's just a European society

[00:30:07] but you think it was all educationalists and doctors spoke not Mr Spock Dr Spock and some of the most but you know there's a hell of a lot of whole parents action I need to be a lot of

[00:30:16] here from the states and the horror show of parenting in those and the states is fascinating we think you know you paid quite a balance there's some quite interesting issues and I think a move away from community involvement community engagement and saying much more individualism in society is

[00:30:33] part of this isn't it was I think you know 152 300 300 years ago there was much more a community sensation wasn't there we look at bits of Italy I think in the blues almost they still have this idea where extended families all lived closely together in places

[00:30:49] and sort of look out for each other and so you role modeling new behaviors so you so an autistic person has a different way of seeing the world because you know the person went before can roll and

[00:31:00] model it in a different way and I think we sort of miss that we sort of throw ourselves on the the most of charity these days and it just seems a bit troubling really yeah that's late stage capitalism oh I didn't realise we're getting them to philosophy

[00:31:19] oh yeah I did what I go into that we just we just leave out there and yeah Euro colonialism yeah yeah etc so you know that used to exist but it doesn't you know basically a money making systems doesn't see I think what's interesting is you know

[00:31:44] what we loosely call the younger generation because you look 12 I've put you in that and like you know that they always have traditionally been the forces of change you know they are

[00:31:54] our men to be and it's quite interesting looking at you know back in the 80s we used to look at the Chinese people in China and Square we used to look at the the Hungarian students and 56

[00:32:03] and all the sort of stuff the next generation are supposed to push their arguments then men to bring us forward and it's quite interesting how you know when people are moving forward there's a group of people who think they're losing something and it's that inevitable process of

[00:32:18] change it's going on isn't it and you know from it's it's quite it's quite interesting but for me I think what's fascinating is the generation I mean in do a lot to learn for them

[00:32:31] sounds what's going on with the youth of today I thought you thought today on revampage are being not the youth of today but the so much is new and different in the world because

[00:32:42] the advent of technology and such like which we'd never seen before you know it's been quite linear sort of progression for the last 150 years and suddenly last 20 years it's real discontinuous

[00:32:51] change and I think you know the next 10 with the AI and all that sort of nonsense or maybe that's going to be even more extraordinary and I think you're going to see the rise of people with

[00:33:00] new divergence because because they're going to be able to think differently about the world in the new world yeah yeah possibly it's really interesting yeah I was saying to that

[00:33:12] about my husband there but day I said oh you know it's with our sons three I said I really hope that I don't turn into kind of when I'm older just turn into her oh well back in my day and

[00:33:24] oh you know we used to work 70 hour weeks and oh I want to do that you don't want me like though I don't feel like her says the person who had eight million things to do when you started this

[00:33:36] yeah yeah you're already on this slippery slope so pfff so okay so people want to find out more about you where can they find out more about your work and maybe connect with you if that's a

[00:33:48] proper thing to do yeah perfect so I also go by autistic and living the dream I'm on Facebook I'm on Twitter I'm on Instagram I'm on Blue Sky and I'm under my my real name on LinkedIn as well and I'm really happy for people to tell it

[00:34:11] that's Monday with you and very fashion be instead of a set of a zero and it is it is yeah Katie with an I a one day with you that's made great well look thank you so much for spending

[00:34:26] time with us it's been a real treat and I'm just gonna turn the recording off now but don't go away so you take care and then if I want to reach out to Katie great and I'll put any legs

[00:34:37] in the recording in the in the in the podcast thing as well thank you thank you so much to Spanning time to this today thank you thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox it's been a

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