Transvox - It's Eurovision time!

[00:00:00] Hey and welcome back to Transvox. How are you Jenny? I'm really good Gill, how are you?

[00:00:15] I am very, very, very, and I'm just going to add another one in, very excited. You know why?

[00:00:23] I don't know. I've no idea what makes a Geordie excited.

[00:00:29] Well, it's normally turning from blue to bright red in the end of sunshine. Actually we've just

[00:00:39] happened to have a strange yellow ball in the sky today. I wonder what it was.

[00:00:43] I know how you all get your tops off as soon as it's not raining up there.

[00:00:48] Listen, no Geordie woman up here has a coat. Let me tell you that now.

[00:00:53] So why are you so excited? So very, very, very, very, very excited, Gill.

[00:00:57] Well, as you know, I am an aficionado of all forms of popular culture.

[00:01:04] Anything after 1865, I'm a bit vague on, but anything before that, I'm an expert.

[00:01:10] But I do like a bit of Eurovision. Ah, Eurovision, that time of year.

[00:01:16] And you know what? What I love about it most of all is that it's this open, two fingers up

[00:01:23] in the face of all the haters just showing the talent of our wonderful community, showing

[00:01:30] the ability, the creativity, the fun and the joy that comes from actually the queer community

[00:01:38] just being able to do its thing. And a wonderful country as well, I think it's in Sweden this

[00:01:43] year. So it's just a great thing. I mean, you could certainly argue it's the LGBT Olympics,

[00:01:48] couldn't you? I mean, I think it's interesting. I've always loved Eurovision because I like

[00:01:55] Eurovision music. But it's amazing in the last few years how it's come such a celebration,

[00:01:59] particularly that our community have embraced and has embraced our community. And yeah,

[00:02:06] it's definitely one finger or two fingers if you're an old enough British person or up to

[00:02:11] those that seek not to support us, if you put it that way, to the haters.

[00:02:18] The funniest thing of all is the thing that really amuses me

[00:02:23] is the extent to which this massively woke culture, this massively woke celebration,

[00:02:29] all these queer or strange people gyrating around the stage has been paid for partly by

[00:02:35] the British taxpayer. It just makes me laugh so much.

[00:02:39] Of course it is because people love it and they love that element to it. And that's why I think

[00:02:44] it's got so much bigger than it was 10 years ago, wasn't it? Even certainly 15 years ago

[00:02:50] when it became a bit seen as I've always loved it because I'm a big ABBA fan.

[00:02:55] But you know, it's amazing. I think these last few years, it's just become,

[00:03:02] I don't know, something's changed, I think, in the way it's perceived, isn't it?

[00:03:06] Well, and I think it's a way of pushing the agenda, pushing the envelope. You know how

[00:03:16] terrible I am with names, but I love the madness of it as well. I love the fact that

[00:03:22] we've got Australia in it. I mean, it's just the scariest. Where else in the world would you

[00:03:27] have Europe and Australia? Yeah, which they must watch it in the middle of the night or

[00:03:33] something. I don't know how the clocks work or they're probably watching it last Thursday. I

[00:03:37] don't quite know how time zones work, but yeah, it's weird. But why not? I don't think there

[00:03:43] should be rules. You know? And just because it's called Eurovision just means it doesn't mean

[00:03:47] anything. I mean, you know, one of the cause for our community, the trans community,

[00:03:51] we've had a winner, of course, haven't we? I forgot. Is it Dono International?

[00:03:55] It's a peculiar name, isn't it? Yeah, Dono International won it, I think, back in the

[00:04:00] 90s or 2000s. I'm not sure exactly when. No, I can't remember when. It was Conchita

[00:04:08] Versed. Conchita Versed, yeah. That was Rise Like a Phoenix. Oh, well done.

[00:04:15] Oh yeah, I loved that. Rise Like a Phoenix. Got an amazing voice and she looked amazing.

[00:04:21] Yeah, that's about 10 years ago now, is it? Something like that. But just brilliant.

[00:04:27] Because, yes, it was definitely queer culture. It was definitely trans culture, but also it was a

[00:04:33] brilliant song. It was also just brilliant, you know, proper sort of... I remember, I think it

[00:04:40] could easily have been a Bond theme or something. It was just one of those sort of

[00:04:44] belters. I thought that was amazing. But yeah, I've always loved... I mean,

[00:04:49] going back to seeing Bucks Fizz ripping the skirts off, that had a weird effect on a young

[00:04:55] trans kid, I think. I don't know why. It's something that stuck in my memory. I love a

[00:05:01] bit of Bucks Fizz me. And yeah, so I'm all for... Yes, I don't know if they're excited to do it,

[00:05:09] but I'm definitely looking forward to it, Joe. I mean, I have to say that the effects of

[00:05:12] Velcro are quite exciting, let's just be honest. Well, and what's great about it is that,

[00:05:19] you know, trans people belong within the LGBT whole community. And it's a celebration of all

[00:05:25] that, including non-binary people and such like. But we've got some really fascinating

[00:05:29] people. One of the people that's been talked about on the news a lot is Bambi Thug,

[00:05:35] who's this... What's the sort of goth... The goth pixie or something strange. I forget

[00:05:41] the name there. They're all calling them. But again, first non-binary artist to represent

[00:05:47] Ireland. I mean... From Ireland, right? How brilliant. And it just comes to show this idea

[00:05:51] where, you know, whether this massive... Think about Irish culture, how free and liberated,

[00:05:58] how successful that Irish culture is. You know, it's quite... It's quite... It was amazing

[00:06:03] that Irish, you know, in the space of a few years, is a more progressive culture for LGBT

[00:06:09] plus people than the UK. I mean, who would have thought that a few years ago, you know,

[00:06:16] with the influence religion had on Ireland and now it is much more into better laws,

[00:06:24] but also more happy to have a non-binary person. I don't know them, but I'm looking forward to...

[00:06:32] I think I read that because they had to go through semi-finals. I think they've qualified.

[00:06:37] Yes, they've qualified, yes.

[00:06:38] Oh, absolutely. Because we don't have to qualify, do we, as one of the big...

[00:06:43] No, because we face it.

[00:06:43] Big five.

[00:06:45] Yeah.

[00:06:45] Yeah.

[00:06:46] And I think what's interesting about... I didn't know this, but obviously Olly...

[00:06:50] I was going to say Olly Murs, but it's not Olly Murs, it's Olly...

[00:06:53] Olly...

[00:06:53] Not what?

[00:06:54] Alexander.

[00:06:55] Olly Alexander, that's right. So he's going through the process for a Cissé.

[00:07:00] Interesting song. But again, I think I guess what Hicca Sportbody represents again is that

[00:07:06] celebration of, you know, gay creativity. It's fantastic.

[00:07:09] Yeah, definitely. Wasn't he in It's a Sin, which is such a brilliant...

[00:07:14] Did you watch that? That's a sin from...

[00:07:16] Oh yes, yes, yes.

[00:07:18] Russell Davis' row. That was a great, great drama. Yeah, he was in that wasn't he?

[00:07:22] So clearly really talented.

[00:07:25] Well yeah, it's all about talent isn't it? So I'm looking forward to that.

[00:07:29] I'm looking forward to Olly. Did you know? I didn't know this.

[00:07:32] Don International, I think it was in 1998, I think you said that.

[00:07:35] All right.

[00:07:36] I didn't know that Katrina and the Waves.

[00:07:40] That was Katrina and the Waves?

[00:07:42] Yeah, I loved that. I love Shiner Light.

[00:07:45] Did you know that she came out afterwards?

[00:07:49] I didn't know she had.

[00:07:51] So you'll quit Googling without 98 and quickly Google.

[00:07:55] I didn't know that because she was America of course,

[00:07:56] you don't have to be from the country.

[00:08:00] I loved that song. I think I remember buying the record at the time.

[00:08:05] I am, I'd love cheesy music. It's my wheelhouse.

[00:08:11] Now what I...

[00:08:13] Oh yeah, the other thing is interesting, because the talk about this,

[00:08:18] the talk about the legacy of Don International and it's been averse to that.

[00:08:23] But apparently another person that nods back to Dana at Don International,

[00:08:27] not in Eurovision this year, but is someone,

[00:08:31] I don't know if you've heard about this person, but someone called Kim Petras.

[00:08:37] Oh right, yes.

[00:08:38] Have you heard about them?

[00:08:40] I know Kim Petra. Yeah, Kim Petra is gorgeous.

[00:08:43] She's a trans woman from Germany, transitioned really young,

[00:08:50] absolutely gorgeous and a singer, pop star and I think had her number one with Sam Smith

[00:08:55] just this last year.

[00:08:57] So yes, I'm sure I saw somewhere that she'd be involved in presenting

[00:09:04] something like Eurovision. I remember seeing her presenting and just thinking her

[00:09:07] dresses were amazing. Well yeah, she's gorgeous.

[00:09:12] So what are you going to do? How do you watch?

[00:09:15] Is it you'll get dressed up Jill or what do you do?

[00:09:18] Of course, of course and there are many snaps.

[00:09:22] I'm in the middle of a diet at the moment because I have, well let's just say that

[00:09:28] I'm somewhat a few pounds, many kilos of what I need to at the moment.

[00:09:33] But Saturday night is an exception. There are many party snacks.

[00:09:37] There is much dressing up. There's much flag waving.

[00:09:39] There's much at a walling along to the music and I love the way the scoring system goes.

[00:09:46] It's just so brilliant how the public vote comes in afterwards.

[00:09:49] It's just amazing.

[00:09:51] It's sort of madness, isn't it? All that sort of madness.

[00:09:54] I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the energy to dress up, but I definitely hope for all

[00:09:58] the snaps. I'm definitely eating my way through it.

[00:10:02] Yeah, because it's a long old show.

[00:10:05] And it goes on forever and the scoring goes on forever now because there's so

[00:10:10] many countries and they have to do the jury first and then they do the public votes

[00:10:15] and then, you know, and it's awful if you get no votes from the public.

[00:10:19] I think we had that one year a couple of years ago, didn't we?

[00:10:24] Yeah, no votes.

[00:10:25] Wasn't it Inglebert that let us down?

[00:10:30] I don't know. I mean, I think yeah, might be Inglebert Humperdinck, of course,

[00:10:33] the other representative. You know your classical music.

[00:10:37] Isn't Inglebert Humperdinck the name of a classical composer?

[00:10:40] Did I get that right?

[00:10:40] Well, don't know. That's very impressive.

[00:10:43] Yeah, I know my trivia. He named himself after a classical composer.

[00:10:48] Do you know what? Inglebert Humperdinck composed famously, not the pop star.

[00:10:53] No, I was going to say that the pop star is famous.

[00:10:56] Well, he's famous for being one of those warm hit wonders because he composed an

[00:10:59] opera called Ansel and Gretel, which is what popularised the fairy tale.

[00:11:04] So yeah, I tell you what, you definitely cover from low brow to high brow.

[00:11:08] Jill, I'm really proud of you.

[00:11:11] I mean, I'm famously high brow, but my brows aren't very high if you know what I mean.

[00:11:15] It's not that high a brow.

[00:11:18] But many years ago, I used to go on tour with Inglebert Humperdinck, the pop singer.

[00:11:23] What?

[00:11:24] Because of course, yes and yes ago, I was as a musician, as you know, and

[00:11:29] What?

[00:11:29] I used to accompany many, many of the big pop acts. Shirley Bassey, of course,

[00:11:33] I was in the Shirley Bassey band for many years.

[00:11:35] I didn't know that.

[00:11:37] You know, we spent podcasts moaning and talking about

[00:11:40] fans out in the UK and we could have talked about you going on tour with Shirley Bassey.

[00:11:43] I tell you what, we should just dedicate,

[00:11:46] I'm sorry, we should just dedicate the rest of the podcast to your amazing life, Jill.

[00:11:55] Well, Shirley Bassey, of course, is a gay icon.

[00:11:58] And I mean, she has frocks to die for.

[00:12:03] There is no doubt about that.

[00:12:04] And it's a few years now because I'm getting on a bit now since I ended my career

[00:12:09] in the music world.

[00:12:10] But she's a famous diva and we used to travel all over the world

[00:12:14] doing stuff all over the country, all over the world doing interesting bits and pieces for her.

[00:12:18] And she was interesting to work for.

[00:12:22] But Inglebert Humperdinck, I remember doing some work with him,

[00:12:25] a number of gigs he did on a tour and he's famously deaf.

[00:12:29] Oh, right.

[00:12:30] And so he has to have the sound system amped up so high that when you're on stage,

[00:12:35] you can't hear anything.

[00:12:37] You can't hear what you're playing.

[00:12:39] And of course, there's sensitive musicians who are famous for our art.

[00:12:45] We're all struggling to find ear defenders because you can't wear big headphones.

[00:12:49] So one of the women at the back of the second violins

[00:12:54] and a packet of tampons,

[00:12:56] and we were all sharing out tampons and stuffing them in our ears

[00:13:00] to protect our ears against the noise of the sound system on the stage.

[00:13:05] It was horrific.

[00:13:09] Remind me again what you played.

[00:13:11] Was it the triangle or something?

[00:13:13] It was the triangle.

[00:13:14] Yes, absolutely right.

[00:13:17] Famous for our famous triangle player.

[00:13:20] Yeah, that's right.

[00:13:21] Taylor Wichita, Shirley Batty.

[00:13:22] What was it?

[00:13:23] It was something.

[00:13:24] I'm sure it was something more better than that, but that's amazing life.

[00:13:28] I want to talk about that more.

[00:13:30] So who was the best person you toured with then?

[00:13:32] Well, I mean, I was mostly on the serious side,

[00:13:34] but I did do quite a lot of pop work and, you know,

[00:13:38] it was mostly those sorts of players.

[00:13:40] It was the sort of musicians that would have a pop band, you know, in those days.

[00:13:45] I mean, now what's really interesting is the fashion has been for

[00:13:49] to have a pop performer coming on and having a group of very young or female players alongside.

[00:13:55] You'll see even on Strictly these days that's been the situation.

[00:13:59] But in my day, it was possible for, of course, in those days,

[00:14:04] there was white male privilege and it was mostly gold white blokes he used to play.

[00:14:10] Of course, those days I was one of those.

[00:14:13] That's a whole lifetime ago, Jill.

[00:14:17] What an amazing career.

[00:14:21] I didn't know that.

[00:14:22] I know you'd worked in the arts, but I didn't know you'd been as varied as that.

[00:14:27] So you could have been in Eurovision at some point.

[00:14:30] There's a part of the world where you could be playing alongside a Eurovision act.

[00:14:36] I mean, the orchestras, especially in the 80s and 90s,

[00:14:39] I mean, there used to be an orchestra in the pit at Eurovision and, you know,

[00:14:44] now it's all either pre-recorded or it's all synth music or whatever.

[00:14:51] We haven't said, have we?

[00:14:52] It's strings, isn't it, you play?

[00:14:54] Yeah.

[00:14:54] Yeah.

[00:14:55] Yeah.

[00:14:55] Yeah.

[00:14:55] So yeah, they do because they have their own orchestras and stuff

[00:14:58] because they have to play live at Eurovision.

[00:15:01] Oh God, you could have been there, Jill.

[00:15:03] You want to pick it.

[00:15:04] I don't know what you pick up.

[00:15:05] Pick up your bow or whatever again and give it another stab.

[00:15:08] You should see my atrophytic fingers.

[00:15:14] I can't decide if I've got such extreme arthritis because I used to play or

[00:15:19] that I would never have been able to play past this age anyway because of the arthritis I have.

[00:15:23] So, you know, I've got really bent fingers now.

[00:15:25] I mean, some of it's somewhat would have been handy

[00:15:27] because my fingers bend the right ways if you know what I mean.

[00:15:29] So I do think playing creates sort of musculoskeletal,

[00:15:35] I'm having a foggy hormone day today, skeleton problems.

[00:15:40] Oh, dear me, my fingers.

[00:15:42] But yeah, no, it's an interesting.

[00:15:43] And the thing is, having been in New York, you see, what was interesting for me being a young

[00:15:48] musician was that obviously I had the whole trans thing going on.

[00:15:54] But I was in a world where being unusual or odd or a bit

[00:16:02] effeminate or whatever you want to call it in those days, it was okay.

[00:16:05] It was natural.

[00:16:06] It was normal.

[00:16:06] You know, I was surrounded by KPI people.

[00:16:09] I went to college and then, you know, I was in a halls of residence and suddenly you

[00:16:12] discover loads and loads and loads of gay people.

[00:16:14] You discover lots of other things as well.

[00:16:16] But there was definitely a gay, I sort of, you know, an informal gay mafia.

[00:16:20] There was a Masonic mafia in some places.

[00:16:22] You couldn't join a particular, I don't want to name the organization.

[00:16:28] We couldn't join a specific musical organization unless you were free,

[00:16:31] this and he couldn't.

[00:16:32] There were some places where there was a game after you couldn't get in.

[00:16:35] There were West End shows that were heavily unionized

[00:16:37] and you could have to be a union member together.

[00:16:40] More for that.

[00:16:41] There were the reverse applied.

[00:16:43] Well, of course, the days I was there were very heavily unionized.

[00:16:47] And I used to point out that this would not last forever.

[00:16:49] And the end is nigh for the music profession and the way it worked then.

[00:16:53] No, interesting.

[00:16:54] So yeah, musicians unions.

[00:16:58] It's fascinating, isn't it?

[00:17:00] So much more embracing just overall the arts and a more embracing culture

[00:17:04] than we may have certainly historically seen like in sport, for instance, as we know.

[00:17:08] And that's brilliant, though, isn't it?

[00:17:10] And that's, you know, it's that whole thing.

[00:17:12] And that's why, you know, things like Eurovision have embraced queer culture, I think.

[00:17:19] And particularly trans culture.

[00:17:21] It's really interesting.

[00:17:22] Well, it's a way you can be yourself, isn't it?

[00:17:25] I think the arts have always had this thing where you it's okay to be different.

[00:17:30] It's okay to be.

[00:17:31] In fact, it is a literal celebration.

[00:17:34] So I always think there's two measures of creativity.

[00:17:37] Sorry, two measures of diversity, one which is innovation, the other which is conflict,

[00:17:41] because both of those areas are about difference, working and action.

[00:17:45] And I'm not talking about conflict in the sense of punching each other.

[00:17:48] Talking about conflict comes from professional disagreements.

[00:17:51] And that is, of course, is a foundation stone of innovation as well.

[00:17:56] So, you know, it's fascinating to sit in an orchestral place or an artistic endeavor

[00:18:02] and just be valued on pure meritocracy and what you bring rather than who you are.

[00:18:09] Yes, which I mean, I don't know exactly what we're talking about.

[00:18:12] But I guess we're not talking about, you know, just a couple of years ago.

[00:18:16] You know, there'd be other parts of society where people wouldn't be able to,

[00:18:21] you know, express their sexuality, would there?

[00:18:23] There'd be plenty of workplaces where people just didn't, I mean,

[00:18:26] they're sort of the 80s and 90s, you know.

[00:18:30] It was just not particularly, you know, with the AIDS panic and all that

[00:18:36] panic in terms of the way that it was portrayed in the press.

[00:18:39] So, yeah, I think the arts were that one bit as we know, you know, that embraced it.

[00:18:45] But I guess even then, you think about people like Elton John who didn't come out until

[00:18:50] halfway through his career because he felt he couldn't.

[00:18:52] And so, yeah, it's amazing, isn't it?

[00:18:57] I think it was 67, wasn't it, when the Sexual Offences Act came out.

[00:19:02] Legalized homosexual acts in England and Wales in the condition that they were consensual.

[00:19:07] In private and between two men who had attained the age of 21.

[00:19:12] I think it was, yes.

[00:19:14] Yeah, the year after.

[00:19:15] I always think it's interesting, you know, when they talked about the World Cup in Qatar

[00:19:19] and how it was illegal to be gay.

[00:19:20] It was illegal to be gay in England when the World Cup was held.

[00:19:24] Yeah, they didn't legal technically.

[00:19:26] I don't think it was legalized.

[00:19:27] It was decriminalized, wasn't it?

[00:19:28] It was decriminalized, yeah.

[00:19:29] It was a sexual offences act.

[00:19:31] Yeah, we didn't torture people because they did Alan Turing for instance.

[00:19:37] I think that's really interesting.

[00:19:39] But even then though, it still took some time and even within the arts,

[00:19:42] although it was probably embraced within the artistic community,

[00:19:46] outwardly, you know, pop stars even though weren't coming out as gay,

[00:19:51] even, you know, starting through to the 80s really.

[00:19:56] Well, if you think about it, what's really fascinating about our world,

[00:20:02] and you look at people like Stanley Baxter, you look at people like...

[00:20:06] Oh, I remember some of those.

[00:20:08] You look at all these people.

[00:20:09] I mean, these were allegedly straight heteronormative men

[00:20:15] who actually made their living from dressing up as women.

[00:20:18] And what's the other one? Larry Grayson.

[00:20:22] These are people who are probably openly...

[00:20:25] Who played the persona of being gay and were possibly gay at the same time.

[00:20:31] I don't know.

[00:20:32] If it is, we all go back and we're still here for all the kids,

[00:20:36] you know, we're talking about Dick Emory and Stanley Baxter.

[00:20:39] As far as I can see, Dick Emory was more mocking, I think, it felt to me.

[00:20:45] Larry Grayson, I think, came out as gay and his act was camp.

[00:20:51] So, yeah.

[00:20:52] He was gay.

[00:20:53] Yeah, he was gay, but I don't know if it was sort of openly talked about

[00:20:57] back when it was on Generation Game and all that, but it was clear from his act.

[00:21:02] I'm not sure some of it was still sort of, you know, that sort of...

[00:21:06] Or isn't it funny seeing a man dress as a woman approach that TV embraced?

[00:21:10] Because I don't think it was...

[00:21:12] I didn't feel those acts were inclusive and making me feel,

[00:21:15] you know, belonged or represented made me feel like, you know,

[00:21:20] I thought it was interesting.

[00:21:22] I think that did change.

[00:21:24] You wouldn't get acts like that now, would you, I think?

[00:21:27] No, not at all.

[00:21:28] Well, you wouldn't.

[00:21:28] Of that time, yeah.

[00:21:29] Yeah, there were at the time.

[00:21:31] So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:21:32] So I think it's very interesting, but it was interesting that,

[00:21:34] you know, even pop stars, you know, weren't able to come out as gay,

[00:21:39] you know, right up until the 80s really, or halfway through the 80s probably.

[00:21:44] You know, I don't know when John came on.

[00:21:47] Freddie Mercury kept his sexuality.

[00:21:49] He was bisexual, secret until virtually, you know, towards the end of his life.

[00:21:55] You know, so I think these things come out, but it's still amazing that,

[00:21:59] of course, the press are all homophobic in the 80s still,

[00:22:04] so I can see why people didn't come out.

[00:22:07] But within the community, I think everybody would...

[00:22:11] Yeah, no, it was, I guess, gay.

[00:22:14] It was probably embraced within the community,

[00:22:17] but just not piercing the outside world, I think.

[00:22:20] But you see, what used to be quite amusing for me is I used to be in a West End show

[00:22:25] and quite a well-known one.

[00:22:28] Which one? Go on, tell me.

[00:22:30] Hang on a second.

[00:22:31] But we used to walk along the road to Soho, down through Soho into all the gay areas of London.

[00:22:39] Well, it was bombed at one stage obviously, but I mean,

[00:22:42] that whole gay village is really a fantastic atmosphere.

[00:22:45] A bit like the gay village in Manchester, and you know, there's one in Newcastle now,

[00:22:49] and there's sort of everywhere now, and they're quite trendy and looked after.

[00:22:52] But you know, Soho Square and all those places.

[00:22:55] I'm trying to think, not Windmill Street, there's a specific road.

[00:22:59] Old Compton Street?

[00:23:00] Old Compton Street, yeah.

[00:23:01] Oh, and the Vauxhall, is that where the Vauxhall Tavern is?

[00:23:03] Yes, that's right.

[00:23:04] And that was, you know, still the centre,

[00:23:08] and in some respects the centre of gay culture in London, isn't it?

[00:23:11] I know I've seen things recently.

[00:23:13] I think they had a vigil of it when the Paul Snite Club happened outside the Vauxhall Tavern,

[00:23:20] where Lily Savage used to perform,

[00:23:22] Paul O'Grady at the Vauxhall Tavern, and the police used to raid and things.

[00:23:26] So yeah, I mean, yeah, you know, that's all part of that community.

[00:23:31] But that community certainly didn't pierce my world in rural Staffordshire,

[00:23:37] growing up through my teens, you know, growing up through my teens.

[00:23:43] So it's amazing that culture was there, but it certainly wasn't where I lived.

[00:23:49] I wonder whether I've been able to, I haven't thought about this before,

[00:23:52] but I wonder if I was able to cope with my own path, as it were, because I was in that world.

[00:24:01] I wonder maybe you've maybe felt less shame than I did, because I felt shame.

[00:24:06] But it's also a general sense of acceptance.

[00:24:10] I'm pretty sure, pretty sure if I'd come out...

[00:24:17] Well, I mean, I knew people who were openly gay.

[00:24:21] I went to college and as I say, we're in halls of residence and people were openly gay.

[00:24:25] It's a bit like being sent to an all-male prison, especially sex you'll ever have.

[00:24:31] But it wasn't in the halls of residence,

[00:24:33] but there were certainly plenty of gay people and there was certainly plenty going on.

[00:24:37] And I think that was overt and that must have been the 80s.

[00:24:42] And I think it was quite interesting, isn't it?

[00:24:45] Because it's sort of our generations have sort of locked down again and

[00:24:50] started to end the premise of society.

[00:24:52] There's obviously a threat in the world

[00:24:54] where we think that we need to pull back from being liberal and such.

[00:24:59] I suppose because being liberal and having liberal democracies hasn't really

[00:25:03] made anyone feel that much better.

[00:25:04] So it's better to have enemies because you can feel safe there.

[00:25:09] There's people that just need enemies.

[00:25:10] But I think that's really interesting because I mean,

[00:25:14] I'm not that different much in age to you, Jill.

[00:25:17] So I'm only a couple of years behind.

[00:25:19] I'd like to pretend it was 20 because we're not on camera, but it's not.

[00:25:22] But I don't think I knew anybody that was openly gay,

[00:25:25] let alone anybody that was trans until...

[00:25:28] I don't know when I first met a person that was trans,

[00:25:31] but I certainly don't know anybody that was gay until...

[00:25:34] I don't know well into my 20s and maybe somebody at work.

[00:25:38] And I went to university in Liverpool.

[00:25:40] It was progressive and liberal.

[00:25:43] So this would have been in late 80s, I was at uni in Liverpool.

[00:25:48] And I didn't have any...

[00:25:50] It feels weird to say now, any gay friends that I knew or anything like that,

[00:25:55] if I'm being honest.

[00:25:57] So even then, it seems a world away from where we are now.

[00:26:01] It just seems so strange.

[00:26:04] Maybe it is easier to cope if you're feeling that

[00:26:08] you're in a world embraced outside is embraced differently.

[00:26:16] I felt I couldn't show any cracks in my masculinity growing up at all.

[00:26:22] I would never have shown any of it.

[00:26:25] I remember at school, because obviously I was a musician then,

[00:26:29] I was playing then and quite well known and quite gifted.

[00:26:33] I remember going to one of the worst schools in the northeast of England.

[00:26:38] I mean, it's horrendous school.

[00:26:39] It had three and a half thousand people in it, two and a half thousand,

[00:26:41] three thousand people in it and only the sixth form.

[00:26:45] Because it was that level of academic achievement.

[00:26:47] Most people were escaping at 14 or 15 in those days.

[00:26:51] But I remember there'd been a massive fight.

[00:26:54] Because of course, in those days, being called a poof

[00:26:58] was the nicest thing you could be called as being gay.

[00:27:02] That was the expression, you're a big poof or something.

[00:27:04] I always excuse people for the language, but there you go.

[00:27:07] But I remember there'd been quite a big fight

[00:27:12] between a group of lads in two different schools.

[00:27:14] Because one of the group of schools were shouting, he's a big poof.

[00:27:18] And all the kids from our school went after them saying,

[00:27:20] he may be a poof, but he's our poof.

[00:27:26] That's lovely.

[00:27:27] So it was the tribalism, strange tribalism

[00:27:30] and how I can overtake identity and such like, doesn't it?

[00:27:33] But it just makes me laugh now because I've gone back now

[00:27:36] and joined some of my school groups now as I am now, obviously.

[00:27:41] And of course, I'm bumping into and I've actually bumped into the person

[00:27:45] who I'm called, who I named myself after.

[00:27:49] Oh right, I didn't know you'd name yourself after somebody.

[00:27:52] Oh amazing.

[00:27:53] Someone who I really remember at school.

[00:27:55] There were a pair of girls at school who I really loved to bits.

[00:27:58] Do you know what?

[00:27:58] That's definitely, I think it's a podcast for the future

[00:28:02] is revisiting friends after transition.

[00:28:05] Old friends, those sort of reunions I've made contact with

[00:28:09] and how navigating that is it really interesting.

[00:28:11] You know, old school friends, best friends who had no idea

[00:28:14] was trans and then I'm contacting them saying look at me.

[00:28:17] That's a thing, you know, I think that's a really,

[00:28:20] it's an experience that anybody who hasn't transitioned will,

[00:28:24] it's difficult to understand.

[00:28:25] But yeah, that's really interesting growing up in,

[00:28:28] as I say, I grew up in sort of rural Staffordshire really,

[00:28:32] not near a city in Stoke but you were in a bigger city

[00:28:35] so maybe more acceptance and certainly in the areas you moved.

[00:28:41] Yeah, I had none of that really.

[00:28:43] I don't think I had any acceptance really until I got down to London.

[00:28:46] I think London's always been that breeding ground of, you know.

[00:28:51] So you felt more free as soon as you got to London,

[00:28:54] I can understand that.

[00:28:57] It's the same now into an degree, you know, as a trans person,

[00:29:00] I went to London and Brighton, you know,

[00:29:04] not on occasion to go to Brighton for conferences and things

[00:29:07] and it is, you know, it's amazing that when you're in a city

[00:29:11] that you know so clearly, same Manchester really,

[00:29:15] clearly accepts our culture, who you are and embraces that difference.

[00:29:20] How much safer you just feel in that environment,

[00:29:23] I'm not saying it's always easy.

[00:29:25] So I imagine it must have been amazing going to London

[00:29:29] and just feeling able to be yourself more.

[00:29:34] Well, look, we started talking about Europe.

[00:29:36] We did, we moved slightly off, we've all got very reminiscent.

[00:29:39] We should save this for when we're in the old people's homes

[00:29:42] as two old deers, Jill just talking about it.

[00:29:45] Wittering.

[00:29:46] Yeah, this is where it's become so.

[00:29:50] You've got your knitting out, haven't you?

[00:29:51] We're just having a knatter session now.

[00:29:53] Well, you can't do it with your arthritic fingers, Jill.

[00:29:55] You know, that's true.

[00:29:57] But it is true.

[00:29:57] Sadly, I'm far too uncoordinated to knit.

[00:30:02] But I'm still excited for Eurovision.

[00:30:04] Me too.

[00:30:04] And who's going to win?

[00:30:07] I've no idea.

[00:30:12] If you're asking me, I tell you, politically,

[00:30:15] I don't think we're going to win.

[00:30:16] No.

[00:30:18] And I'm not going to get too political.

[00:30:20] I think I'd be surprised if Israel win, if I'm being honest,

[00:30:23] with the current politics.

[00:30:24] So we'll see.

[00:30:28] Which is at least the of an issue there.

[00:30:33] But I don't know.

[00:30:35] Ireland maybe.

[00:30:36] I mean, Ireland have the best record of winning Eurovision.

[00:30:39] I don't know the song, but why not?

[00:30:41] A non-binary winner would be great.

[00:30:43] Or I mean, Sweden always do well.

[00:30:46] I suspect it won't be one of the big countries like the UK, Germany or France.

[00:30:50] We don't tend to.

[00:30:51] Well, it's interesting because I always think it's worth looking at the bookmakers

[00:30:55] because they're always wrong.

[00:30:56] So they have Italy third.

[00:30:59] Oh, Italy, right.

[00:31:00] Behind Croatia and second and Switzerland is top.

[00:31:04] Do you know, I haven't watched the semi-finals yet.

[00:31:06] I should know this.

[00:31:07] I should have prepared because it was last week.

[00:31:09] I can sing you some of the songs that go.

[00:31:12] And enough on that.

[00:31:15] And on that note, I think we better stop because I'm getting giddy.

[00:31:18] That is a good note.

[00:31:20] And you then everybody who's thinking about your musical ability is thought.

[00:31:25] I'm going to minute that call me right.

[00:31:29] That's really full.

[00:31:30] Well, I look forward to speaking to you next week then, Jill.

[00:31:33] Yeah, and we can celebrate.

[00:31:35] And all of you.

[00:31:36] We'll maybe back up heavy stuff.

[00:31:38] Do we?

[00:31:39] Yeah.

[00:31:40] Are we going to go down?

[00:31:40] Are we going to go deep again next week?

[00:31:42] Who knows?

[00:31:43] Who knows?

[00:31:44] That's the excitement of this pod.

[00:31:45] Who knows whether we're going to be joyful or.

[00:31:50] I tell you what, Jen is always space for another listener's questions

[00:31:55] because we've got a few bits of emails floating around the place.

[00:31:59] And I like the question.

[00:32:02] The more controversial, the better.

[00:32:04] Yeah, there are a couple of ones which are quite interesting.

[00:32:07] And maybe we'll have a little tackle of some of those.

[00:32:09] We'll save that for next year.

[00:32:11] Well, enjoy your Eurovision.

[00:32:14] And you.

[00:32:15] All right.

[00:32:16] Take care everyone.

[00:32:17] Bye.

[00:32:17] Take care, be good.

[00:32:22] Thanks for listening to this episode of TransVox.

[00:32:25] It's been a joy to have you with us.

[00:32:28] If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillianattransvox.co.uk.

[00:32:36] And if you'd like to support the work we do,

[00:32:37] please go to Patreon and go to page TransVox.

[00:32:41] And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.

[00:32:44] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes.

[00:32:48] Which one have you chosen?

[00:32:49] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections,

[00:32:52] which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people,

[00:32:56] non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK.

[00:33:01] An amazing charity doing some amazing work, really important.

[00:33:04] So please, if you can give.

[00:33:06] Great.

[00:33:07] And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections,

[00:33:09] it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.

[00:33:12] But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing,

[00:33:15] because we love to help the people who help us.

[00:33:17] Again, if you've got ideas for the show,

[00:33:20] things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause or brick baths,

[00:33:25] feel free to send it all in to gillianattransvox.co.uk.

[00:33:30] Until the next time.

[00:33:31] Goodbye.

[00:33:32] Bye bye.