Transvox - In the News - Is this the beginning of a real fightback?

[00:00:05] Hello and welcome back to Transvox. And it's a couple of weeks since we've seen my old colleague, old being the operative word. Oh, that's awful, isn't it? That's a hard start, isn't it? My old colleague, Jenny Harvey, sitting in front of me looking resplendent. As always, I see you've really gone for the theme of the day, Jenny. It's very impressive. The Eurovision sparkles are all over the place. The hanging lights are still behind you.

[00:00:34] But I just need to tell you, it's a week ago or two since that. I mean, I know you like a bit of Eurovision, but that's my head. Never too bit late to be Eurovision. I mean, I think it's a little bit tight and a little bit revealing, but you know, that's the trend these days with Eurovision, I reckon. It is. Did you see it? I did. It was... I love Eurovision. It was sort of very tense in the end. Yeah. You know, when Israel looked like they were going to win and what that would mean for Eurovision, you know, read into that what you like.

[00:01:04] I've got to go about my politics on it, but I knew somebody was there and they said it was tense. You could almost hear the organizers sweating at the thought of what would happen if they won. Oh my God, you know, it was like, came out of nowhere in that public vote. But it was great. I thought I loved the winner. I thought the winner's songs, I thought they were amazing. Yeah. But I'm very impressed by people who sing, because an opera singer, I think he was, isn't he? It's Cantor, isn't he? Yeah. Sort of a noratorial singer. Yeah. Very good. Excellent. I mean, I enjoyed it.

[00:01:33] I didn't think it was as good as other events recently. I think other events have felt a little bit more joyful and the music's also been a little better, but yeah, it's all good. Yeah. We had some friends over and we had dinner and they didn't like dinner. And then they watched Eurovision and thought it was shit. So, did they actually tell you they didn't like your dinner?

[00:01:53] Well, we ordered some, it's fantastic, we've got this fantastic sort of food truck up here that does all sorts of wonderful sort of South Asian food. Oh, right. And they couldn't take the mildest of all the sort of spicy curries. So it's very odd. Well, lightweight. Well, they shouldn't have ordered them. That was the first mistake, isn't it? There you go. But yeah, I loved Eurovision. It's getting bigger, it does get bigger every year. I remember it disappeared for a bit, didn't it?

[00:02:20] People just stopped watching now. But yes, it was tense up until the end. What do you think of the British thingy? I think it was, I mean, did okay. And you know, the fact we get no votes is always from the public is always interesting. And I think it's bigger than Eurovision. You're voting for, you're not, you're just voting for what you like the most. So, you know, it favors like things that people really like or people really hate in some respects, because that's a divided audience.

[00:02:50] I think the ones that are in the middle, like meh, like the British one was a bit like that. Maybe for people to still like the UK very much, because you can understand that. I genuinely think actually it was telling that the technical vote for our song was high, but the sort of impact for it on the night was low. Because it was one of those songs, once you heard it two or three times, that it really grew on you.

[00:03:15] I only, I liked it because I heard it three or four times, but I could see and the person who we had over that night didn't like it at all. We just couldn't make any head and a tail. I think I read something about maybe it was trying to be too wordy and it was too, too much of different, slightly different genres within it. And you're right, maybe the jury, that's why the jury see things differently. But if you do feel for them when it, it's so awkward when they have to read out the public vote is no votes.

[00:03:40] And the next one is like 300. It's just awfully cringy. I can't cope with secondhand embarrassment very much, so I find it difficult. I see. I like a bit of schadenfreude or whatever the phrase is. Yeah, something like that. But yes, it all worked out in the end. But yes, I absolutely... Sorry, we're actually looking at each other today because we said, well, that means we won't interrupt each other so much. And there we go, I'm stewing it already.

[00:04:10] This is the theory. This is the theory. Well, it was two weeks ago when I saw you last. We did an episode called From Tiaras to something else, to trans activism. And I think we're going to do something again this week, have a look at the news and try and sort of put some positivity or balance into the equation. Because I think sometimes it can all get a bit gloomy. Yeah, it is. I mean, there's a lot going on. I know you've been up to a lot this last couple of weeks. I have. Yeah.

[00:04:39] So, yeah, there's definitely some news from your part, I think. But yeah. Well, first of all, what's been happening? What's caught your eye? Because there's been so much activity recently. I think, and I think probably... Well, you go first and I'll stop answering my own question. This is it.

[00:04:56] Since we last spoke, obviously, it was in the wake of the advice from the human rights, the statement from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which went well beyond the court judgment and, you know, was pretty much introducing, posing to introduce a bathroom ban, etc. I mean, since then, they've had some pushback, it seems to me. I think, I haven't seen it in full, but I think there was something in Parliament where they pushed back on it.

[00:05:23] They've been forced to extend the consultation to the end of June now, an extra four weeks effectively, which I think is a good sign that somebody said, hang on, and you're trying to push this through. So, I think those are good indications. I mean, the consultation is obviously still going to be difficult, but we need to make sure everybody responds. I think that's the first thing that stuck out at me, a first bit of a glimmer of positive news of saying we can't rush this. Yeah.

[00:05:51] Well, my understanding is the Labour Party were actually very embarrassed by the... We'll come to the Labour Party in a minute. Yeah. But they were quite embarrassed by the speed of that response from that EHRC document, which obviously was ready. So, either they had a contingency plan ready to go for it or they knew what the Supreme Court judgment was going to be. I prefer to think the former. Well, it's interesting how misguided that guidance was.

[00:06:17] But as you say, I think the part of this, part of this extended consultation is to make sure actually nothing's going to come out much before the end of Baroness Faulkner's sort of regime, because that's an issue. Of course, part of the problem is many people in the EHRC have been leaving in solidarity with trans people, which means that actually it's filling up with more and more people who are anti-trans.

[00:06:38] So, it's, you know, if you're in a job and you're a trans supporter, please don't leave, you know, because especially in places like that, the best thing you can do to help us is to stick with it. And, you know, you can't help us if you've left. So... You can understand why people would... Of course. But the thing is, resigning and making that as a statement is great for two days worth of news. Yeah. Once that's the case, you're then replaced by somebody who may be more gender critical. Well, I am seeing these things.

[00:07:08] I think that was the first thing I saw that I thought, oh, that's, that's positive, because it's not going to be rushed as much. I still think it's pretty rushed in a month. Yeah. You know, but yes, so there has been some, I think, I mean, I haven't seen it, but I think it was a video of, is this comment, there were debated a motion on? In Westminster Hall. In Westminster Hall, was it? And, you know, so there is, you know, Parliament are taking seriously and the allies we have in Parliament, I think, are able to express that.

[00:07:36] I know you've talked about an MP that you'd spoken to that would be trying to support us. So maybe things are happening. I think if anyone gets the chance to have a look at that video, it was 17 minutes of common sense. Yes. And it was a trans vote. It was obviously the Tories and the Reform Party boycotted it, which is why it was, you know, a cogent series of arguments and such like. So you didn't have people just yelling at, you know, nonsense.

[00:08:05] But what's interesting, because there was a proper sort of dissemination and thinking around the actual facts of the case rather than just a notable claptrap. And there were a bunch of trans people as well who spoke very compellingly. And it was less, it was less about this sort of emotional hoo-ha and much more about the practical reality. Yes. And I think that's really important. Yes, it is. Because I think Katie Montgomery is somebody I follow, I've seen on YouTube. She's a good actress, was posted a picture. I know she was in the room.

[00:08:35] How would you find it? What would you Google? Is it? I'll put a link into the show notes. Oh, right. That'd be great. Yeah. Because I need to watch it because it's, it is good that these things are happening. I'm okay. That's not going to in of itself change things, but it is good. And I think the idea to, I think we do need to talk a lot about this. That affects us emotionally, of course, but the practical elements.

[00:08:57] I mean, the sheer unworkability of what the HRC were proposing, the sheer nonsense around it is something to tackle. And I think we do need to push back on, you know, the scientific nonsense about some of the way the Supreme Court handled it. What was it? Biological nonsense, I think. Yeah. A part of the BMA called it or scientifically literate. I think that's worth doing as well. Same with the cast report.

[00:09:26] You've got to push back and say, just because these people have made these judgments doesn't mean their word is God, you know, on this. Right. These are fallible people making fallible decisions. And that's a problem with the cast report. The thing is, well, they're basing decisions on facts, but it depends who, which facts they're basing them on. Of course they are.

[00:09:47] And if they're only listening to a set of facts from one party, and this is what the problem is with the cast report, their judgment was logical based on what they'd heard, but they only heard half the story. And that's the thing with the Supreme Court challenge. And, you know, the idea of having, saying it was an issue between a certificated person and a biological person, that's never been a problem. You know, so, you know, they've made it a problem. And I think that's part of the issue.

[00:10:14] I think what we're seeing now is that Robert Galbraith, who masquerades as a woman, has been funding quite a lot of hate, hate initiatives. And, and I think is behind quite a lot of this sort of activism, obviously women and sex matters, you know, women in Scotland, all that sort of stuff.

[00:10:35] And there's sort of interesting equivalence with what's going on with Elon Musk in the States, how this is a very rich person who's involved and pushing this agenda. And, you know, they have a right to their view. They don't believe trans people should exist. And therefore they're funding their, they don't see themselves as extremists. They see us as extremists and such like that.

[00:10:56] There will come a point where we have to sit down and talk to these people because, and you know, harder, harder, more difficult parties have come to a negotiating table and solve their differences, including what happened, you know, we both lived through what happened in Northern Ireland. And that was a more intractable problem than the ones we have with these people. But I think what's happening is, you know, the anti-trans brigade is well, well funded, well organized. It's brilliantly run.

[00:11:25] And it's obviously just based its approach on project 2025. It's taken their playbook and is running it now through, through us. And this is really all about anti-women legislation at the end of the day. And I think that's what we have to realize. Yeah. I mean, as you're right about how funded, I mean, the infamous now, another tweet from JK won't be named. Robert Galgrave. Robert Galgrave.

[00:11:47] Yeah. Well, you know, either way, with JK Rowling, if that was, with her with a cigar saying, celebrating, saying, I love it when a plan comes together. You know, yes, they've got what they needed. And what's interesting is, what I think is, when we're seeing that pushback, is the judgment was in many ways quite narrow. I was, I was reading the comments of, is it Lady Hale? So she, she, yeah, I don't know if you've seen that.

[00:12:16] You probably helped me out with this a bit, but she, she, she says she's questioned the binary nature of this journey. And the fact that this does, isn't about banning people or saying you can't have gender neutral toilets. This is just about a definition. And she's somebody that's really respected and she's not, you know, previously been like a pro trans activist in any way. And she's never spoken about these issues. But I said, this is just odd judgment.

[00:12:41] You know, it says that she's with Vika doctors who are saying there's no such thing as simple biological sex. Yeah. You know, and to your point about the motivation between some of these people, I always go back to the Instagram post that the museum posted that everybody looks at, where they said, you know, if you hate people, if you hate trans people, just say you hate trans people. Don't try and use biology like racists do to justify your argument.

[00:13:10] And I thought it was very well where that's put, you know? Yes. Don't try and use science in the wrong way or, or, or just justify, just say, look, you find trans people icky and you don't like them. Yeah. I mean, at least you know where you are with, so you know. And people, and I actually admire that more. And I think, you know, Robert Galbraith and the team are doing that. And that's absolutely fine. So you know where it stands. But that's, that's absolutely fine. But I think the thing about Baroness Hell has been really interesting. She hasn't criticized the judgment of the court.

[00:13:39] What she's criticized is the government and the EHRC's response with it, because she said it's disproportionate. And it's actually not understand it. There's nothing, the quote, I think, struck me, there's nothing in this judgment that says you can't have gender neutral lose, as we had in this festival. I mean, she did say, I think there are plenty of things to quarrel about in the judgment. But a main concern was the binary reaction, which is very interesting way because you're talking about non-binary. But the polarized reaction.

[00:14:06] And the fact is that, you know, organizers and governments chose to do that. But particularly the EHRC, I think their role in this, as supposed to be sober, you know, serious, their knee jerk reaction seemed very in line with transphobia in the UK. And it's very knee jerk, very just, and went well beyond. There was nothing, it was unnecessary. There was no need for them to say anything other than let's consult on this.

[00:14:35] So I think the credibility of the EHRC has taken a massive hit within not just our community, I think, but many organizations. I know employers are saying, well, you're supposed to be the people that advise on this. This is unworkable. We're going to have to ignore your statement for the moment because it's just nonsense. And that, again, fills me with some hope. Yeah.

[00:14:59] But I think what's interesting as well is that Baroness Hale or Lady Hale? She's Lady Hale, I think. Lady Hale, Lady Hale, anyway. Yeah. What's her name? Mags. Mag. I'm going to have to say, Baroness, sorry, Brenda Hale. Okay.

[00:15:20] But she was talking at a literary festival or something, and I think her daughter was at the same thing, and was recounting the fact that this all started about, you know, female representation on boards. And the daughter, Julia Hoggart, I think she's called, who is a gay woman, said she would love to have a talented trans woman sitting on a board of mine. And I think this is what it comes back to.

[00:15:42] What we've done is we've actually disempowered women's rights because, of course, what's happening now is, you know, there are still fewer cis women on boards. That problem has not gone away. Now, this huge noise, of course, has distracted from that problem. And this is the feature of the, you know, the debate. When it's that classic dead cat, you know, when is a trans person on the front page of the news? There's something else going on. No, you're right. And you're right about that representation.

[00:16:09] It means there are, you know, less women involved. I mean, there's not many trans women are involved in things like that. I sat in a women's seat on an executive committee in my union. So you could see an analogy to a board. I wasn't that. I wasn't taking, I was taking, I was just added to the diversity of women representation because I'm a woman just happens to be different than a cis woman, but I'm still a woman.

[00:16:35] And I think you've not only lost that, you know, in a sense, breadth of women's experience on there, but you've also seen less women involved, you know? Yeah. It just seems, but of course, that's never the agenda. The agenda is, because we know when people have said it, they do not want us to exist and have a place. Yeah. Women, apparently. But well, of course, you always have to remember trans men. And this is the point, isn't it? Because they're now female, but they've gone back to being women. And this is the ridiculousness of the whole process.

[00:17:05] Now, on the same thing, because of course, this is not just about trans stuff. I was looking at the ILGA Europe rainbow map. Oh, ILGA, yeah. Yeah, ILGA. It is ILGA, isn't it? Yeah, International Gay and Lesbian Association, but they are trans inclusive. So they're a longstanding organization, but they've just not changed their name. Yes. And the reason we, I think we dropped from 20 to 22nd out of 49. And there was a time I think we were in the top two or three, wasn't there?

[00:17:32] Well, in 2015, we were ranked number one in Europe. So we've gone from not because equal marriage had been introduced. And I think what they do on this rainbow map, it's Willowith, Google it. Rainbow map, ILGA, if you Google it. It shows places with the best equality, right? And the UK was top. We're now, I think we're ranked 20th or around about 22nd. 22nd. Yeah, 22nd.

[00:17:55] The only sort of big sort of, if you say Western European nation within that, below us is Italy, who have introduced, who have a fascist government that have, I think they've outlawed same-sex adoption and things like that. So they've put some really aggressive. And I think about the UK, it's almost solely that fourth, that lofty fourth from first to 22nd is due to their issues on gender identity and trans rights. Because actually... Well, not just. Not just.

[00:18:25] But in the vast majority. In the vast, yeah. Yeah. But what's encouraging, well, you know, what's encouraging for a lot of gay people who are anti-trans? There's lots of people on LinkedIn who are representing gay men in particular, who are, you know, viscerally anti-trans. It's the anti... There's a global rollback of LGBT rights. Yes. And of course, there's still a failure to ban conversion therapy. And I think, you know, that's quite interesting, isn't it?

[00:18:53] So, you know, the gay community are losing the ability for the conversion rights thing to actually be part of the agenda. No, no. And I think they... The vast majority of LGBT people, you know, the community are for trans people. There's a visceral minority of lesbian and gay people. They're on LinkedIn. It's not hard to find them. They're regularly sitting on my profile spewing hate and violence and nonsense. So, you know, I know they're there.

[00:19:21] But I think what's interesting is, you know, the classic thing is once you've eradicated the trans people, who are they going to look at next? And it's the lesbians and gays. No, no. We've got to realise this. We definitely see an old fashioned 80s style homophobia creeping back in. Yeah. I have no colleagues that have had that. And you're right, it isn't solely bad. I think just in terms of that redbird map though, it is noticeable that the vast majority of the reasons that's dropped, of UK's drop scores is due to transphobia, the fail, and actually just the Holocaust of the board.

[00:19:49] Our reputation as a progressive nation has been hit, and it's because of transphobia. But you're right, you are seeing a rise of that. Obviously in America, you're seeing pride events not being embraced in the same way by organisations because of this level of... It all fits into the anti-worker gender, whatever you want to call it. It's, you know, what's happened in America and this country. But yeah, it was always...

[00:20:14] There was a conference, I think, dating back to the early part of the century in America where they, if game plan saying, if we can tackle getting trans split away, we can then attack the rest of the LGBT community, which they've always, you know, there's always people wanting to regress those rights. So you're dead right on this. But I think it's a shame. This country should be shamed of where it's regressed.

[00:20:42] No wonder other countries drop like we have. No, but what's interesting is... What's interesting as well is this new commentary from the experts who make up the special procedures committees in the Human Rights Council. They're independent. And what they've done is they've actually voiced the United Nations concern over the anti... The UK anti-trans movement. And, you know, that's quite interesting. So, you know, we really are getting some... I think they've given up on America.

[00:21:13] They haven't actually talked much about America, but they're talking in particular about the UK world. And I think this is really interesting that it's actually... Because we've been, you know, such at the forefront of democracy and equal rights and, you know, and people forget that human rights are to protect us against our governments. That's what human rights is for.

[00:21:35] So when people are saying, you know, in human rights terms that this is an issue, what they're saying is our government is actually acting in a way which is against our human rights. And I think this is interesting. So you've got this movement going on. You've got the Goodloe Project who are now challenging. And there's a group of nine barristers, I think, who are working to challenge the Supreme Court's ruling, take them to the European Commission on Human Rights.

[00:22:00] So it's interesting. It's a bit like the gender critical crowd have been very fast and organised and we've been quite slow. But the tank is sort of turning and actually we're deploying some quite big guns. And you mentioned that the debate in Parliament.

[00:22:17] I don't know if you've seen some of the written evidence from people like Crash Wigley and Michael Foran, you've heard of Michael Foran, who contribute on the UK Constitutional Law.org websites. And they have actually gone in forensic detail into this ruling, the actual ruling itself, and showing all the inconsistencies and issues with it.

[00:22:44] And in the same way that I think two weeks ago, the BMJ, BMA came out and, you know, forensically destroyed the CAST report. All of these projects and I've been properly, you know, had the time to properly have a look at these with proper legal minds and, you know, start showing the intricacies of what's going on. So what's happening? This is a legal judgment, which may well be challenged and overturned.

[00:23:07] I mean, I think it is really interesting and, you know, in many ways, the UK has lost a lot of power and influence over the last couple of decades, you know. But one thing is, things that happen in the UK are seen by other nations. The CAST report has been picked up in other parts of the world and used to evidence their aggressive policy. Yeah, in America particularly, but also I think I've seen in Scandinavian things, people have been referencing the CAST report.

[00:23:31] A report that, again, is flawed at its core and, you know, and it's been shown to be, but people still using that. And similarly, you know, other countries will point to what's happened in the UK, a so-called progressive democratic nation that leads on these matters to go, oh, look, what's happened in the UK? They're not, they're not a horrible country or not. I mean, lots of people don't like us for very many reasons.

[00:23:55] But, you know, in more recent years, you know, that the UK, a seemingly liberal democracy is trying to regress trans rights. And they go, oh, maybe we should be using that evidence. So I think, I think the danger, I think that's what, I haven't read the article, I'm really interested in that. I think, I guess that's what the United Nations are alluding to. This is a problem for UK, but also a problem everywhere. If people are going to start to take this idea on, there's particularly this, you know, the idea that biological sex is all that matters,

[00:24:26] which is ultimately what the Supreme Court seem to be saying. And they're doubling down on it, even though the vast, there's a ton of evidence now in all, in all places, talking about this. There's just been, you know, doctors, lawyers, barristers, whatever you want. There's a ton of people coming out against this biological law thing. And of course, the sort of erasing of intersex and non-binary people, because that is part of this movement.

[00:24:52] It is clearly, had they been honest and just said, we want to erase trans women who do not pass. You know, people like me, who are maybe newer to transition, I don't, it's clear I don't pass. And I'm not, I'm a trans woman proud of that. I don't pretend to be, you know, to be, to be anything else. But I think they've just been clear and said, we just want to create a bit of a legislation to get rid of the likes of me.

[00:25:18] The whole community needn't have suffered. And I think it's just so, it's so stupid. I'm not sure if I take your point on that. I'm not sure that was ever their intention. I'm not sure where they're coming from. They don't want trans women to exist. They don't want trans men to exist. They don't validate non-binary. It is, it is more difficult when you don't, I hate the word passing. You don't, you're not able to live and people not realise your gender history. That's the way of putting it. I get, I get that.

[00:25:45] And I get that's more easy for them to attack, but they're not going, they're not saying, saying that. And I don't think they were saying that they don't want trans women. I think it was the academic, I can't remember the name, it might have been Kathleen Stock, or there was a conversation on YouTube and they use the phrase in this country that trans women are a problem in a sane world. They don't think we should exist. That's right. And it goes beyond, I think, whether, I think, whether we're making people feel awkward if we don't pass or not,

[00:26:15] or making people feel uncomfortable if we don't pass or not, is one thing. But that actually goes beyond that. So I can understand where we get, you know, may get the brunt of it or look at that. And I've been, suffered that abuse online on a couple of occasions. But you can see trans women who are absolutely, that is very interesting, you know, absolutely living their lives and nobody can realise. And they're attacking them. Look how they've treated.

[00:26:44] You just need to be visible. And that's not about aesthetics. That's about you standing up, Sarah McBride in the United States. It's not because she absolutely looks and is a woman, you know, and I'm sure just nobody would know. But she's chosen to be visible in terms of her profile and therefore they. And it's the same in this country, you know, you look at. So I get your point on that.

[00:27:10] But I think, I think the issue is, the honesty would be, we don't think trans is valid and we don't think people should be able to do that. And that includes trans men as well. I mean, Graham Linehan. Oh, I haven't mentioned Graham Linehan. Yeah, I haven't mentioned him for years. He sort of disappeared. He would viciously attack the trans in terms of he talk about women, girls mutilating themselves. So it's never seen. Have you seen the comments? Have you seen these trans investigations he's been doing this week?

[00:27:39] Oh, there's trans investigation. Is he doing that? That is so. So basically, you know, you know, a bunch of, you know, a bunch of trans women decided to protest in front of, I think it was the Scottish Parliament and take the tops off. And Graham Linehan has been going through them with a microscope working out whether any of those are real women or not. I mean, so he's been looking at pictures of trans women's breasts and saying, is there any real woman in here?

[00:28:06] And apparently he's discovered that one of them is, even though they're all trans people, he's decided one of those people is a cis woman. They are nuts. I mean, this is, this is, this is just the level of perversion. And it's a border of sort of Nazi fascist school shaped nonsense by the, this is the idea of biology is, and this is what, this is also what leads, and it has been happening now for a while, will only get worse to cisgendered women.

[00:28:34] I mean, you know, women who happen to be cisgendered and getting challenged because they might be tall. Yeah, loads of that. They might just look slightly differently. It's to that, that's an absolutely misogynistic in that respect to say that women have to be, you know, as typically female looking and if you in any way look different. Absolute nonsense those are. I mean, you see them all the time. They, they seem to claim any, any, any famous woman is trans or every famous man is trans. Some of these crazy, crazy people. I mean, that's the funniest one of all.

[00:29:03] Well, I mean, Barak, Michelle Obama used to get loads of this. It's absolutely crazy, crazy. But ultimately, the whole, the whole ideology is crazy, crazy, because I still can't see what problem is all this trying to fix? Other than people just not liking the fact we exist, because at no point. Are you trying to do logic again? What's that with you? Yeah. People do forget that logic of it. Oh, we've got this Supreme Court clarification. What problem are they trying to fix?

[00:29:33] Nobody's been made safer by this. Nobody's made, nobody else's lives are being impacted on trans women and trans men and non-binary people existed. So I'm ranting a bit again. Nobody's been affected. What you have to remember is you're making a bunch of very sour people very happy. And I mean, that's really what it's all about, isn't it? So, you know. I suppose. I mean, we're in a post-truth world these days. So trying to apply some logic to it is somewhat exhausted at times. It is. Yeah, no.

[00:30:01] Now look, Naomi Watts. Have you heard of her? Because you know I'm down with decades when it comes to the social, the media of the social side. You know, I have heard of MySpace and Friends Reunited and even the Facebook. And apparently, Naomi Watts has a trans daughter, Kai. And they've done a massive LGBT fundraising event in New York. That's good, isn't it? I like that. Oh, there's lots. Yeah, the actor. Is that Naomi Watts? Yeah, I know Naomi Watts.

[00:30:31] Yeah, yeah. She's got a trans kid. Is that right? Is that what they say? I just said that. Kai, yeah. Oh, I'm just looking at it. I didn't know. Yeah, Kai. You see, I'm down with the kids. Well, I mean, there's loads of... I mean, you've seen that loads. I mean, particularly, I guess it's... I remember you've talked about like the arts and how people are braids. You know, you've got, you know, you've got plenty of really current people. They've got relatives. Pedro Pascal, who's an amazing actor in everything at the moment, has a trans sister. Yeah.

[00:30:58] And these people are just, you know, there's Jamie Lee Curtis, he's got a trans daughter. There's loads of famous people and they're coming, you know, that is making a difference. Not that that should matter. But yeah, I didn't know that. That's great. That's great. But yeah, it feels like they're also being brave because I mean, people throw the term brave about now. Yeah. But to become visible, I've been visible in a way. And we're visible because we're on this podcast, right?

[00:31:26] And so when nothing's changed, but to become, to decide to be visible, to decide to stand out now, I think it's an act of bravery because I can understand why people would feel fearful. I was talking to a, I've got a colleague who is, I've got more than one colleague, somebody that I work with, somebody that I'm involved with in some of the work. And she's, I've only just met recently. She transitioned in 94, I think, 90s. And he's worked and, you know, not out, nobody knows at work.

[00:31:55] She's living and working as a woman. I think maybe a handful of people know. And, and I was talking to her and providing, I think, you know, help therapy for women, right? Who want a woman therapy. Of course she has. She's very good. Brilliant at it. And then suddenly worrying about her role. It's crazy. You've got a good therapist. It's only worried about this, can be able to do that. And, and she told me this heartbreaking story.

[00:32:22] She's got a daughter and a daughter is obviously aware of what's happening. You know, the news and things. And I think it said, will you still be able to go into the toilets? She's got a young daughter. Will you still be able to go into the public toilets with me? And she said, of course, I wouldn't try to reassure her, but heartbreaking stuff. Who the hell is that? Who the hell is all this trying to fix? Yeah. So those people are brave of anybody that's coming out at the moment and saying when they're, when they ease the easy thing.

[00:32:49] I think if I was, if I was working as a woman and nobody knew I had trans history, I'm not sure Jill, I'd be brave enough to step out. Yeah. And I think, I'm in awe of people who do because that was never an issue for me. I'm just restraining the urge to do a terrible pun there. So before I do, I just want to point you to a really useful resource. Okay. Transactual, who are a lobbying organization. Yes. We like that. Most people have probably heard of Transactual. We like Transactual. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:19] But anyway, they've produced a very useful little report or page on their website called Knowing Your Rights for Trans People Following the Supreme Court Judgments. And there's quite a lot of really sane, interesting information, but also they've posed some good questions like what do service providers have to do? What do I do if there's a problem? Can I be asked to prove my sex? It talks about your rights at work. So I'm going to pop that into the, into the links as well on the show. Oh, great. Yeah.

[00:33:57] I've been considering thought through and I think that's, I think that's very useful. Well, that's definitely needed this day and age is a bit of thoughtfulness before people splurge out onto the internet or into the press. Well, I mean, we'd never do that, would we? Oh, we'd never do a knee jerk rant on the internet. No. No. I think. Apart from every other week. So we're almost at the end today, but I hope you've noticed that I've been quoting from Pink News this week. Oh, gosh. Right. Okay.

[00:34:27] And I know you're a fan. Well, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, less so than I used to be, uh, since, uh, I think it was, uh, editor posted. So what did the editor say something about? We're doing too much stuff on the trans stuff. Let's roll back that, you know? It's affecting rights. Yeah. They're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, yes, exactly. They're, so yes, I'm not a massive fan anymore, but they do write some supportive articles. They do. And one of the supportive articles I've written is about us.

[00:34:57] What? Yes. You see, you don't, I mean, I send you all this lovely information. Oh my God. Do it. I, I, I, I. So it's, um, we, of course, of course, as you know, um, are supporting, have been supporting a conference recently around, and creating a trans research hub for, um, a group of researchers come together and start, you know, the next, the next generation of research researchers who are coming together to share ideas and expertise and such like, and Pink News covered it.

[00:35:26] And, um, there's our, um, and we mentioned, uh, Chris Parks, who was on last week's podcast talking about the Feminist Gender Equality Network conference. And, um, we were in the talks about us and the trans research hub and trans vox and, and, um, reflections. It's a charity that was actually involved in hosting the whole thing. So there you go. Pink News forgiven, eh? I mean, it does. I did sound a bit ranty towards the end, but there you go. That wouldn't be me if I hadn't. Oh no, that's amazing.

[00:35:54] Well, it is the second time I've been, well, not that I'm personally in this, but it's the second time I've been in, uh, in Pink News and maybe that's a story for another day. Yeah. But, uh, um, this was a few years ago and it wasn't a great experience with them, but you know, that's good. I'm glad we've been picked up. There you go. I should, I do. I should read what you send me, Jill. You should have chucked it into the chat again so you can have a look and I put a, and it's really important because we need, we do need this research.

[00:36:21] We need this research to, to be ready whenever we have these, you know, spurious bits of research masquerading as real life. You know, it's really important that we have young, new researchers looking at the world in a young and different way. And I think, you know, one of the challenges for our community is that we are far, we're, we're over-researched and, um, and people are quite unimaginative in the way that the research is, we're not going to change trans issues.

[00:36:48] And, um, you know, that's what we want to do is we want to create new resources so people can actually turn some of the research into action. I mean, how many times have we talked about my mental health and being trans? What I'd quite like to know is what you're going to do, what's someone going to do about it? You know, what they're going to do to help me in my mental health. That's what matters, isn't it? Instead of bloody well saying it's difficult, difficult in certain parts of the country. Tell us, tell us what we're going to do. Indeed. Yeah.

[00:37:14] And I sat in an NHS meeting this week and they were extolling the benefits of the cast report. So I did launch into one. I'm becoming more, more ranty this week. I was explaining earlier. Can you name and shame the trust or better not? Is that, is that, is that, but, uh, but yeah, that's worried to hear. But then again, you can understand why. Well, they have to work with it. They have to work with it. There's two things, you know, if you, if you have not had access to trans people with

[00:37:42] a sensible with, you know, if not see that and all you're seeing is what's in the news and see these reports, I can quite easily see why people get slipped down the route of believing all this nonsense. I really can. Cause you know, what else is, what else information are you receiving until you go and put them right, Jill? Which I'm sure you did. Well, you know, me, I'm very polite. I'm sure.

[00:38:06] I'm like, so well, look, my darling, we've been ranting on for 42.12 minutes. We said we do 20 minutes and we wouldn't rant and we wouldn't get lost and we wouldn't interrupt each other. And we've managed to achieve precisely none of those things. So I mean, given our ability to have missed every single target, I think we could say, well, actually we've really achieved anti targets. So now we live in a post truth world that that's fine. Isn't it? I don't recognize that world.

[00:38:35] Isn't that the thing that politics? That's true. And at least we're consistent in our, in our failures, aren't we? At least we're consistent in that. But I think, I think the trans people everywhere, the point is that, you know, it's been, it's been horrible. It's and it's going to be horrible for a while longer because I think the problem is until some actual tangible stuff starts to happen. We're going to be existing in this slightly non world. And I think, you know, go to your charities, get help, get support, talk to people.

[00:39:04] And I know there are people who are probably thinking twice at the moment about transitioning, but the fact that the fact that you haven't maybe, you know, changed the way you express or the way that the drugs that you take, it doesn't mean you're any less, less trans. It just means you know, you're pausing. Exactly. You're always transing, right? You know, you have to make, I get that. And my heart breaks for people who are in that situation at the moment. But there is plenty of positive stuff out there. My day to day experience is positive.

[00:39:32] You know, this will pass. This will pass. This too will pass. This too will pass. This will, this will. And I think it's, it's been, there's overreach. I think they've got, they've realized they'll gone too far on this. And I think there will be, it might be slow, but there will be, there's, there's reasons to be hopeful. I think we have a new hope. We are in what we call a gallstone world, aren't we? Because you know, it's really painful. Then once it passes, it's absolute bliss.

[00:40:00] Well, I've not had one of them, but it sounds from, it sounds like you'll be able to speak from experience on that, on that Jill. But she'll send you the pictures later. See you next week. Those are Willock. Look up. Bye everyone. Bye everyone. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us.

[00:40:25] If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at Jillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important.

[00:40:55] So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. And, but as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to Jillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.