Transvox - In the News - EHRC, FA and the BMA - Don't Panic!

[00:00:07] Hello and welcome back to Transvox. And welcome back to Jenny Harvey, who's sitting in front of me, resplendent in what looks like a new pair of glasses. Elton John, that's all I'm gonna say. I haven't been resplendent for a while with you, have I Jill? But peeking behind the curtain, actually my glasses only have one lens in because they are a cheap pair of reading glasses, but I'm only sure need reading glasses in one eye, so I've poked the lens out. So hence it looks a bit weird.

[00:00:35] But I'm happy to be resplendent. And seeing watching you poking your eye out with your glasses is podcast gold, as we all know. So today we've got a packed agenda in front of us, so I'm going to keep you focused. And because I know how you like to ramble around the different issues and talk about Mick McManus and all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff. So this week we're going to talk about an august organisation called the EHCR who've given us some interim guidance we need to have a chat about.

[00:01:03] And some of the organisations that have responded to that, some of you will have heard of Barclays, Lloyds, the FA, BMA. We'll talk a bit about their esteemed chairman or chairperson, whatever it might be. And I want us to talk a little bit about a new term I've heard this week around allyship, which is something I think might be quite interesting. And then I think we'll inevitably go past the triumphs of the Labour Party and the union movement, who are in their stellar support and achieving square root of diddly squat.

[00:01:33] And then... Not every union. And then... That's editorialising. I'm giving a little bit of practical advice to people who are challenged and lose on single sex spaces. And maybe just practical things you can say that don't involve collapsing in the heap or trying to punch people in the face or swearing too much. That's our agenda today, young Jenny. How does that sound to you? Well, that sounds fine. I think there's a lot to get our teeth into.

[00:01:59] It feels like this is a sequel to our last podcast in terms of we talked about the judgement on the definitions of the Equality Act and we thought we were in one place and then something else has happened subsequently. So yeah, I think there's a... For once, there's a bit of a flow between our podcasts, Jill. We're planning it. So basically, the wonderful EHRC have delivered, as we probably all know by now, some interim guidance.

[00:02:25] This interim guidance came out very quickly after the Supreme Court judgement. So quickly, it was almost as if... I mean, it was almost like they knew. I'm sure they didn't because it couldn't have been as... It's almost like they've got a transphobe chair in it, Jill. Almost. It's almost like Sex Matters, LGB Alliance have something to do with this because certainly the LGB Alliance and Sex Matters have been everywhere and all over their sticky paw prints all over this commission plan.

[00:02:52] So basically, come with some guidance which, of course, just like the legal case, is meant to make things clearer and has made things completely opaque. And now, I would say, is a charter... Actually, I think really, Jenny, we should stop what we're doing and set up a legal firm because I think there's going to be tons and tons of work for lawyers in the gender sector now. Quite possibly. If you ever get it right, it's the Equality and Human Rights Commission. That's right.

[00:03:18] So, because my understanding of how they work is they provide guidance to the Equality Act. So they don't make law, do they? No. But they effectively frame law. So when you're looking at things, because I know this through employment law, is their advice or guidance to the Act they rely on at court. And we've used that previously. So that guidance that they previously had talked about only excluding trans women from single-sex spaces on a case-by-case basis and things like that.

[00:03:46] They also said that the term gender reassignment in the law means anybody that is transitioning or has transitioned rather than the reassignment. So they've always been putting this guidance. And initially their guidance is positive. Over the years they've become less trusted by the community and certainly since the last chair was appointed by the last Tory government, who people feel is gender critical, did not bode well.

[00:04:11] And they've issued some really knee-jerk, unnecessary interim guidance to the Act, which has compounded the problem, confused everything. And basically the guidance, I don't want to go through it in detail, basically says their guidance is trans women shouldn't use women's toilets. And actually trans men should also not use men's toilets, it seems to be saying, although there might be exceptions. Although there could be exceptions. There could be exceptions. And then they talk about this.

[00:04:40] So it's almost massively knee-jerk. And if anybody can remember back to the last podcast where we heard from, was it Lord Sumter? Yes. Who said this change to the Act doesn't ban anybody from anything. And that's what he, I think he, I'm paraphrasing what he said a bit. And yet the EHRC come out and say, oh, no, we've got to immediately do this for an interim period while we're consulting on it, which is nonsense. And it's an impossible situation for employers to act on, for instance, I think. So ridiculous advice. It scared everybody even more.

[00:05:09] And certainly where I am, Jill, in terms of some of the work I do working with employers and things, we've had to meet with employers and say, please don't change what we're doing. One, it's impossible to do it as they're guiding. And don't do knee-jerk reactions, right? Because there's no, there's absolutely no need to. So my instinct is most decent organisers and employers are not acting on this advice at this moment. They're waiting to see what comes out after some consultation that may finish in July

[00:05:37] or something like that is my, am I got this right? That's my general understanding. I think my understanding is the consultation will take two weeks. People will be invited to the consultation. We know it has to be finished very quickly because we know that the head of the ACHR or whatever, I always mix those four letters up, apologies. Baroness Falcon, I think, her term finishes in August. So it's very clear that she wants to get this done very quickly while it's on her watch. This is all, I think, my understanding, this is a matter of record.

[00:06:07] So she sees this as work. Nothing can change until it's ratified by parliament because it isn't a law. It is only guidance, as you say. But organisations take account of it because it creates legal complexity. So it's possible because of the guidance that a cis person who objects to having a trans person in the loo could actually launch a legal case. Yeah.

[00:06:29] And my understanding from reading lots of the different legal opinion on this is that there would need to be a test case now to establish what would actually happen. But no one's got the appetite for that at the moment. So because, of course, it is only interim guidance. So my understanding is having sat in many trans groups this week is that there will be a piece of interim. There will be some consultation, which we know what will be the result of that consultation. Let's just say now we know it.

[00:06:57] I'm not saying that because I think we need to get people. I would, because you're doing that, you're giving up the fight. I'm encouraging employers, other bodies other than our organisation to respond to that consultation. You have to be invited. Yeah, but the NHS Trust will be invited in one way or another or the NHS. Or you write to them and say we need to be invited. I think the point I'd make is I think realistically you might be right, Jill.

[00:07:21] Well, the fighter in me says we've got to, we've got to make sure some responses go that are realistic, sensible. Yeah, I agree. So I just don't think we should give up and say, oh, we don't need to get any of them. As you know, I am not a giver-upper. In fact, I'm quite an active part of the community saying we spend too little time getting our voice out there. That you hear from Sex Matters, you hear from our LGBT Alliance all the time. You very rarely hear from any trans organisation. Sometimes you hear from transactual.

[00:07:51] Usually when there's been a mess up like the thing with Lush this week, but that wasn't a transactual thing. There are tons of organisations. And what we're being told by ministers who are supportive to the cause is that, A, you need to write more. We need to write more to the NHS. We need to write physical letters to our MPs. We need to, and not templated letters, just genuine letters. No, yeah, indeed. Let's sense. And physical letters as well. Avoid emails. Get things to your MP and constantly write. Right.

[00:08:17] And what we're understanding is that it's likely that whatever the guidance says, that two things probably will happen. The government will probably sit on it. To be fair, we've got an imminent war, trade war and other things going on. So there's a reason to sit on it. There's talk of them reexamining the Equalities Act as well. Of course. So it may well be that this all sits into, flits right through the summer as a huge level of ambiguity. And I don't know.

[00:08:45] I'm a jury's out in my own head about them reexamining the 2010 Equalities Act because the risk is it could get worse. But that's my understanding of what's going on behind the scenes. That makes sense. I think we, I wouldn't personally be, I would think some sense about whatever the EHLC, whatever the Act says about saying, there's got to be some looking at this. It's going to take some time. It gives us the time to get more cohesively organized. And that is happening.

[00:09:11] So you write about the campaigns of letters and it's happening in lots of places. My understanding is charities and organizations are now working better together on this. There are, we are seeing a movement. I think I thought this last time. I think this overreach might be a tipping point. When actually organizations realize how ridiculously unworkable it is. That's the thing I'm saying to my employers anyway. Take aside the feelings about doing the right thing because we need to be inclusive.

[00:09:38] Take aside, I've been saying to them, how on earth are you going to do this? Right. I said to my employers, you have no idea who's trans in our organization. Right. You have no idea. So how are you going to work this? So say you have got a cubicle toilet. Because it's only toilets with cubicles in. That's right, isn't it? If you've got a single lockable one cubicle room, that's fine. That can, whoever can use that. It's the cubicle toilets. And I've been saying to them, how are you going to police this? And I've been provocative.

[00:10:06] I've said to them, okay, on a reception in one of our HQs, are you going to have to ask anybody who comes in if they are trans? And if they are trans, are you going to pin a pink triangle to them so everybody knows that they're trans? That's the nonsense of all this, right? Or are you going to do genital examinations? Of course it's provocative and stupid. And this is why it's always been unworkable. Even before the act, it's always been unworkable to exclude people because it's maddening.

[00:10:32] And yes, somebody might see me and might realize that I'm trans and complain about me and that might be an issue. But how do you prove somebody's trans or not? How do you prove somebody's cisgender or not? How on earth do you prove? So I'm also pushing the absolute nonsense of this. And then are you going to have to just build if, because the act doesn't say trans women have to use men's toilets. So the idea is that you have to have a separate toilet or disabled toilets. And that's not right. That's not fair on disabled people.

[00:10:59] Or do you build a gender neutral toilet alongside the two other toilets? So, you know, because nobody, as soon as you hear stories of trans women, vulnerable trans women being forced into men's loos. And what the implication of that is, they're going to pretty well see that this is stupid and unworkable. So this part of it, which is what I mean, and it's horrible to just talk about loos all the time. But that's one of the biggest things that stops us taking a place in society if we can't go to the loo when we want to go to the loo.

[00:11:28] And, you know, when you talk about single sex spaces for most of our lives, that's the main thing we're in, isn't it? In terms of changing rooms. So you just feel changing rooms in single sex spaces and loos. Yeah. And this is interesting because there's a lot of old nonsense around this. People, the provision of toilets in the workplace is down to health and safety legislation. It's not down to equalities legislation. So that's the first thing they define. So basically health and world safety decide, define the idea of women's only and male only and disabled.

[00:11:58] We small recently disabled toilets. They specify the amount of space, whether it's doors, not doors, all that sort of space. So that's where this starts. And actually the equalities Act has very little to say when it comes in law. There's very little to do with this. Legally, single sex spaces like women are protected, but not legally protected. So it is possible for anyone to use a female toilet and any man and vice versa. Which is why if you ever had a concert, I was at the Strictly tour quite recently.

[00:12:26] And as you can imagine, there was no one in the Gents Loo's and there was thousands and thousands of women desperately trying to get into one loo. With not enough loos. And of course, everyone's using all the loos and no one really cares because no one cares anyway. So what's really key here is if an organisation decides to move, and particularly we'll talk about organisations before we get onto sports bodies.

[00:12:44] But particularly organisations, if they've decided to go pro or con, they're taking a measured look of risk about whether they think they're going to face litigation potentially from their cis population or their trans population or potentially both. Indeed. So we know that Barclays Bank have made some claims. I don't know, can you explain it? Because I've not read that. Basically, they've come out and said publicly that they support the Act and that basically they're going to uphold the guidance issued by the EHCR.

[00:13:13] E-H-R-C, whatever it's called. Yeah. So they're doing it. But I'm hearing all sorts of different things because actually Barclays are quite well connected with the trans community, oddly enough. Yeah. And there's a lot of to and fro trying to find out what that means. But I just want to throw the Barclays thing into some sort of relief because you'll remember, because you're a certain age, Jenny, a sort of political thing that used to go on in South Africa. I do.

[00:13:42] I was on, I was at Liverpool University marching against Barclays Bank, if I remember. Yeah. Because of their support for the apartheid, certainly perceived support for the apartheid. So yes, I remember. Maybe you mentioned Barclays. Yeah. I am actually still with Barclays. I don't know why. So that's why. I'm no longer. But the thing is also, war and want, we're talking about the fact that Barclays were funding weapons to Israel against the Palestinians and such like. I really need to change my bank account.

[00:14:10] So they are not new to this controversy, are they? No. And at the end of the day, what you have are big financial institutions and they're interested in one thing and one thing only, which is making DOSH, which is absolutely fine. But some big organizations do have an ideology that sits behind them for whatever reason. And they do. So it's, I was very pleased to see my own bank, Lloyd's, came out on the other side of the equation and said, we're going to ignore this interim guidance until we have some proper guidance. So that was good. Absolutely.

[00:14:38] And I don't know if I read, so forgive me if this is wrong, but I think I read somewhere that Wetherspoons, the biggest behemoth bub chain in the UK. The Spoons. Who is, who were run by a, a pretty non-progressive, Rexiteer loving owner. I can't remember his name now. He's not. Tim? Tim or somebody? He's not somebody you would normally think as a voice of progress. I said, yeah, Tim something.

[00:15:04] I think they said they're not going to change their policy on using loo's and things. Yeah. Why don't you? Because customers, they don't want all that. They want to do it. And what have I always said about the forces of capitalism? Yeah, capital laws were the way. Because actually they know they've got young people, they've got tons of non-binary people, they've got loads of students, they've got loads of transgender people who use their places and they're not going to turn away their audience.

[00:15:29] As always, the vast majority of people are completely uncaring about this. And that's the point. Not in a nasty sense that they don't care, but in the sense that there is, they don't have any room to care. Because it's not part of their lives. The big mistruth at the centre of all this is there has never been any issues with trans women using women's spaces. Never has.

[00:15:54] You get one or two stories about what happened in prisons and that was a failure of risk assessing, not anything else. In the NHS, I've not come across a single issue of where a trans person being properly accommodated has put anybody else at risk. Even if there was a handful of incidents, it wouldn't be justifiable, this overreach. But there are none. It is all about perceived, a perceived threat that is not there. And that's been drummed up by a media that have been hostile.

[00:16:23] So this is where I go back to the point when I transitioned in 2005, nobody, but I was nervous first time I went in a women's loo and stood in a queue along with all the other women and just feeling, God, I'm standing out and they probably all know I trust. Because in all my time, and I have been out about so much recently, never had an issue because nobody really cares. They just don't. And they're either supportive or they're just getting on with their lives. There's a big lie at the centre of this that there's ever any evidence.

[00:16:53] It's the same all around the world. It is completely trumped up. Why? We've had this conversation hundreds of years. We do, we are. Because we talked about this. We're a massive distraction. Because in this country they paint this as protecting women. Yeah, well it's rubbish. That's how it is sold. We know it's rubbish. And actually, I always say, the first people that says hitting the most are the trans community. The second people that says hitting the most are cisgendered women who might now get more likely to be challenged and abused. Correct. So those are the women that...

[00:17:22] And so the only way you're going to solve that is what happened in the States where they said we have to define what a woman should look like so they don't get that confusion and this is what they should wear. And this is where... Anyway, we don't want to get lost on this again because we've got two... We're only on item two. We've got 17 items to get through. Oh, wow. So the next thing that happened this week was the Football Association, without any degree of surprise, following the snooker and the chess, which I've still never understood why trans people have an issue with chess.

[00:17:49] So the Football Association have actually changed their rules to follow the guidance and they're saying that transgender women can't take part in sports. And I think rugby and cricket have followed suit. I'm not sure about wrestling and the other Olympic sports, but that's going to be interesting. But that wasn't a surprise. And Sharon Davies was on telly having a wonderful thing about how we've reclaimed sports.

[00:18:10] And I did think it was very amusing that if transgender women were so good at football, why aren't they all playing for the women, the WSL, for Chelsea and Man United and for the top teams, Man City and such like, and Newcastle even. Because if they were that good, they would be paying for the top teams. I think there's two things about the sport. You're right. The idea that sport have been dominant, it's just ridiculous. A handful of people play trans women who play sport at any level, to be honest.

[00:18:39] There already was a situation with a lot. So there's two things about some sports are, you know, in terms of sports, are open to men and women anyway. It's just so, for instance, snooker, chess, whatever, they're open tournaments. So that not being banned from that, what they would be doing is saying you can't enter a women only tournament. Same in dar, which is, because there's no obvious physical advantage either.

[00:19:03] I don't agree with it in many ways because of, you know, the fact that transitioning and drugs do change your body and everything else. But I can see there's an argument that people can make stronger for those with sports. I think it's wrong thing to do because of the number. So don't get me wrong, I'm not conceding that ground, but I can see that. But yeah, so that doesn't surprise me. And that was pretty much the way everything was going anyway.

[00:19:26] There's very little opportunity for trans women in professional sport, in all honesty, to compete in women's sports in that respect, I think. But the other bits of it are just, they're already, you know, it feels nonsense. I think pool as well. They said there's no advantage. In fact, there's no advantage. The only disadvantage when I started playing pool after transition is I couldn't get down on my shot anymore because I've got some boobs to get in the way. But I found it is weird.

[00:19:54] It's the first time I recognized my body changing was playing pool when I realized, oh, I can't quite do things the same as I used to. But yeah, I think it's, I think what's finding hard is this constant drip of on the BBC news site is every day another sport saying this, right? It's just ridiculous. And, and, but let's go to some good news. Let's talk about, I'm not a big fan of unions as they're not my cup of tea at all, but there is, but there is one union that I'm suddenly a big fan of. And that's the- My union, unison.

[00:20:24] No, no, you're a union, rubbish. My, I am all over the BMA, the British Medical Association. And what's happened with the BMA quite recently is they've come up with a bunch of statements. And this is the statement. And this is the part of the union that represents what called resident doctors, which we used to call junior doctors in, in the back in the day. And, and what they've done is come up with quite a scathing attack, not just on the cast report.

[00:20:48] They've, they've basically said that the straightforward binary divide between sex and gender, and I quote, has no basis in science or medicine while being actively harmful to transgender and gender diverse people. The union branch said it condensed scientifically illiterate rulings from the Supreme Court, made without consulting relevant experts and stakeholders that will cause real world harm to the trans, non-binary, and intersex, as I keep banging on about communities in this country.

[00:21:15] Now, isn't that, now that once the entire BMA position is not decided until June in their conference, that's quite something. No, I love the language. I think they use the phrase biological nonsense in some of the, nothing's like that. And the idea that biology is, it's a gender doesn't, it's just the great, I do have to defend trade unions because otherwise I'm going to get killed. I take your point that you're not necessarily a big fan. Very much of the equality legislation that we have has been won by trade unions.

[00:21:44] So, look, many are stepping up to the plate right now and will be with us in the fight. So, I can never be on the same page as you on that because I think we have a port and roll to play. But, I do take your point about the BMA as a, particularly as a, they're a union, but they're not a typical trade union in that respect because they're as much as speaking for the profession. And they're talking about, they're talking about the medicine of it, the science of it, which they can do with authority, can't they?

[00:22:10] And they can say this is just nonsense and are workable and not based on, as I say, science. And I think that's really helpful. I think that's going to be really helpful. Hopefully, it gets adopted as policy. We'll see. But I hope something comes out of that. And those, they can have real influence. But yeah, yeah. Let's talk about some couple of real world things. And I'm just going to enjoy this next bit. So, just to be clear.

[00:22:36] And this did make me laugh because I was chatting to a Labour MP this morning because credit to this Labour MP that come out to meet a bunch of trans LGBT charities. And basically to educate themselves on what's going on and what it all means and what's the size of the problem. It was, and it was interesting because that leads on to a subject I want to talk about a little bit in more depth about allyship.

[00:22:58] But before we get there, I did remember putting into the chat box because I was online and dialing in everybody else was there. If only you had seven more trans people who could have voted last night in Runcorn and Hellsby. Yes, there was that. And this is the thing. And I think a lot of people are saying with the Labour Party at the moment, we don't want to talk trans people because it'll upset a lot of people.

[00:23:23] But there's a lot of people who hoped for the Labour Party to come in, hoped for massive change, who are just walking away from the Labour Party. And actually, in that room, I would have said eight or nine people who were staunch Labour shift supporters were pretty disgusted in saying they wouldn't vote Labour. No, I get that. Just for clarity, because I feel like I'm doing the Rory Stewart bit. I'm just doing the explainer. It was a by-election that was won by reform very narrowly. By six votes.

[00:23:49] Yeah, which has to be a concern as what we most perceive as a far-right party with pretty hateful policies, although not that distinguishable from the Tory party in certain circumstances. But you're absolutely right on that. I think you're absolutely right about the lack of faith in the community with the Labour Party. This has been growing for some time even before this is, you know, comments made during the election by Keir Starmer, comments made by Wes Streeting.

[00:24:18] So there's already the failure to deal with Rosa Duffield, who is an overtly transphobic MP, as from where I sit, her attitude. So there's always been, I've been somebody that's involved in Labour Party and be part of LGBT Labour. And I know some young people have left the party. I still want the Labour Party to get back to what it needs to be as a party of progression, a party that swayed the vote for equal marriage, the party that was front and centre in fighting back against Section 28. I think that was the Tory party that brought that through, wasn't it?

[00:24:48] No, but it was Labour Party votes that won it. Cameron's government proposed it, but he didn't have enough votes by far. I think nearly half of his party went against it. So it was Labour votes that won that. So I give Cameron credit for the legislation, but not for the Tory party for winning that vote. So two things I've given, and I feel this, two things. They introduced equal marriage when they were in government, not their party, but their government did that.

[00:25:16] And Theresa May trying to make lives for trans people better when they opened the consultation. She did that as a government. They didn't succeed in the second one. But that was, I give them credit for that. I do give them credit for that. So I'm not trying to do that. What I'm trying to say is, yes, the Labour Party, many of us feel the Labour Party have left us behind. Particularly as trans people are part of this community. But we expect that party to be better. There are still many allies in that party and many allies.

[00:25:44] And I don't think we should all abandon them, in my view. But I certainly don't give them any credit at the moment on this. I think there's a terrible danger, isn't there? And when we think about votes and such like. There was a, I think it was Maine in the States. One of the big constituents. And many of the students there didn't vote Democrat because they were quite upset at the way that Biden government had been handling this. Wisconsin, I think it was. Was it? Yeah, where they've got, I think, was it Wisconsin? They've got a large Palestinian community.

[00:26:14] Yes. And they felt. So they didn't vote. They didn't vote as a protest vote. And then now look at what's happened. And so I think the fact that we have, that goes back to this, you need to protect your democracy. We have to vote. And whenever you're voting for any party, there's going to be stuff like in some of it you dislike. Yeah. Which is why people vote for who they vote for. Of course. To get us off this blind alley, I'm going to reverse us out this blind alley. Because I want to talk about a slightly different subject now. But it's been a week of weeks.

[00:26:42] And all I'd say is that things aren't, things are much more fluid than we seem. I feel weirdly hopeful at the moment. I don't know whether it's delusion or I've drunk too much chocolate milk. But I'm trying to feel positive. Are you? Yeah, I'm trying. Well, I'm desperately trying to think of a pun, but I can't think of one at the moment. But chocolate milk, I'm quite intrigued. It's my choice. Oh, no, I just did lots and lots of cold chocolate milk. And do you put the chocolate powder into the chocolate? No, no, I just buy chocolate milk. You just buy chocolate milk. I can't be bothered to make things.

[00:27:10] All I'm saying now, listener, our wonderful listener is, you see, this is, union people are so well paid, they can afford to drink chocolate milk all the time. The rest of us, we can only drink water and... How dare you? Now, listen, I was running a group this week of trans people. And we were chatting about allyship. And there was quite a lot of discussion about this.

[00:27:35] And they came up with a really interesting idea because they talked about allies need to do more, allies need to do this, allies need to do that. And how allies are this and allies are that. And they came up with this, D, she was called D, that's right. And she came up with this idea and said, you know what, we do spend a lot of time criticising allies. And I think what we need to do is we have to recognise that what exists out there is a category of people called imperfect allies. And these are allies who, on one hand, do this, but on the other hand, do that.

[00:28:04] So they were talking about their father or grandfather or something, who couldn't get the name right and didn't get the pronouns right and all that sort of stuff. But took them shopping and bought them clothes. And this idea that sometimes our allies maybe need to be gently educated, but we shouldn't be shouting at allies who are trying to help us. And it was interesting listening to this Labour MP this morning because there was a sort of a big heart. We're not going to sit and talk to you unless you admit that trans women are women and trans men are men.

[00:28:33] And the poor MP sitting there, that's what I've come to find out. I don't know what I think. I'm coming to be educated. So there's an example of an imperfect ally. And I think sometimes we may be, I know you brought this concept to me, which I've used a lot of the woke scolding. And I do think actually this idea of the imperfect ally is really interesting, quite liberating as well. This idea that we should stop moaning at people because they don't use our pronouns if they're basically protecting us in a safe space, for example.

[00:29:03] You know, that's quite important, isn't it? I think it is. So first of all, I picked that phrase up from a streamer called Hassan Piker, if anybody wants to follow Hassan, who is a big streamer, political streamer from the US who uses that term. In termining what you're saying that sometimes we get that messaging wrong and how we deal with that. So I tend to agree with you. I actually don't think we spend our time moaning, slagging allies off. I don't think we just do that. I don't think we really do. And when we get misgendered by accident, we don't do that.

[00:29:32] I think there's a perception of that. I think the idea that we need allies because we're such a small community. Nobody's listening to us. So we do need allies. I think what a lot of people struggle with is what does that actually mean? So lots of people will say they're allies because they support us and don't want to see our minds making worse, but don't know what else to do. I think people find that difficult.

[00:29:55] And I find this really interesting when I've been in situations where there's people in the room that I know are supportive and regard themselves as allies. And I've come under some attack and having to try and respond in a meeting, for instance. They've not known how to show allyship, show some support, make comments and things. I've seen that sort of first hand and it didn't make me think about this or not. It's not because they didn't want to. It's because actually, how do you do that? I think you're absolutely right. We need to find our allies where we are.

[00:30:24] I don't think we shouldn't just abandon principles, but I think if somebody's on our side in terms of what we're seeking to do, which is trans liberation, right? Which is the phrase we're starting to use now, similar to the gay liberation term in the 60s, is we need liberation. We need some equality for trans people, whatever that is. The nuances of that are making sure we get, we're due to respect to parents and all that stuff. I get that. But I think you're right in that.

[00:30:48] We need to find a way of having allies understand the wrongness of what we're facing, the inherent wrongness of that, and find ways of using them. But I think so many people who want to be allies don't know how to. And I think you're right. Some people, I don't know. That example's interesting. If the relative was deliberately misgendering, I don't believe that person is an ally. They're accidentally misgendering. It's a different matter. It's intense. Because I don't see how you could be an ally if you're not going to respect somebody's pronouns.

[00:31:16] If you ask me if you were deliberately not going to respect them, Jill, I don't see that as being an ally to our community. I think it's been tantamount. But are you saying if we should accept that some people get things wrong? Of course we should. And I talk about that in the training. I think we should always do that. So you're right. That idea of finding allies in places we wouldn't normally find them, I think, is important. Because it hasn't worked so far, has it? People, my parents taking time to get my pronouns right, I understood that. I wasn't condemning them.

[00:31:46] And what I'm talking about is you can't accept somebody who deliberately says, I don't care. Because if they say, I don't care how I call you, I'll call you whatever I want. It's not an ally, right? And we do need to listen to people, understand what hurts them when they transition and what they find difficult. I think it's when, if we're talking about the wider campaign and cultivating allies, I think we should be forgiven of errors and mistakes when people just get it wrong just through a mistake and learn from it.

[00:32:13] If somebody has said something in the past and they've learned from it. So I do think we need to do that. And we do need allies, whether we like it or not, because there's not enough of us. No. No, look. The last bit, some practical guidance. So I've seen tons of guidance coming out. What should we say if we get challenged in the loo? And I've seen people put the right guidance out there saying, because of the GDP laws and blah, blah, blah, and the sex equality act of 1975 and this, that, that. That's all very lovely.

[00:32:42] But someone's having a go at you. It's not the place to start reading chapter and verse and start talking about your rights in that way. So I think one of the things you've got to think about is that, look, I know people don't like this word passing, but as someone who's transgender and doesn't pass, I'm going to say that the vast majority of people who pass are going to go to the lose and not going to raise an eyebrow. They're going to go in. They're going to do their stuff. They're going to come out and no one's going to bat an eyelid. So that's the first thing.

[00:33:09] The second thing is, if you don't pass, I would say that you go in and you do your stuff. And if someone basically starts to say, who are you? What are you doing there? You basically say, mind your own business. And you get into the loo and do what you need to do and then get out. Now, I have always aired on the side of caution. And in any sign of danger, I will use the disabled or gender neutral loos. Not because I think it outs me as being transgender, because I already am, because it's obvious that I am.

[00:33:38] But I think there's a place where, A, we have the confidence if we pass. And B, if we don't pass, you don't have to start spouting legalese. You just have to say what you would say to anybody, which is, it's not your business. I'm just getting on and I will be out here in 10 seconds and then do your stuff. The good thing is, I'm over six foot. So if some cisgendered woman who's five foot one is going to start yelling and screaming at me, it's not going to actually... I don't feel a physical threat.

[00:34:04] And I do think sometimes that we just need to remember that we're just going in, we're using the loo, and then they're going out again. The more you're worried about things, the more you're on edge about using the loo, the more likely you are, I think, to be spotted. Now, what's interesting here is we're seeing lots of examples of people, and this is all anecdotal, so forgive me, but I've heard some anecdotal evidence this week of someone going into a loo, a trans woman going into a loo,

[00:34:32] someone saying, what are you doing in here? You shouldn't be in here. And two other cisgender women saying, just let her get on with it. And they did. So I think we have to dial down the fear a little bit, because otherwise I think we're creating a situation where our community is getting so terrified that we can't live our lives. And I genuinely believe that the vast majority of people don't care. Not that they're uncaring, but that they don't care because we're not part of their lives.

[00:34:58] And actually, the chances of running into one of these more gender critical people is quite low. And the chances are that if you do, you may find support. If you're out and about and you aren't naturally cautious or difficult and diffident about going there, don't. Go into a different loo. It's what I do. I don't feel any shame in terms of going into the disabled loos. I don't see myself as disabled. I don't see myself as having a disability. But I do see myself as actually not being an issue for other people. So thoughts? Yeah, that sounds problematic.

[00:35:27] I don't think I'm necessarily on the same page. I use disabled toilets because I've recently become more disabled and need access. I've never used a disabled toilet because I'm a woman that doesn't have to be cis. I never will because if I'm doing that, I'm depriving a disabled person of the need of that space. So I personally never did that. And I'm six. I don't pass. I think so in thinking that, I think I can understand why individuals never criticize anybody for doing that.

[00:35:57] I'm just saying I'd never criticize anybody. You all have to do it. When I first transitioned, it was really stressful using the women's loos for the first time because I worried about somebody saying something. They never did. They never did. So I think I agree with you on that. That's what makes you more comfortable. Do what you need to do for you. I'm saying I also would say you have every right to use those facilities. And just because somebody might complain doesn't mean you've not got the right to do that.

[00:36:24] Because once we start all being pushed out of our spaces, because more and more people complain and want to push us out of those spaces, then we haven't got those space. I don't think I've on any occasion used a disabled toilet other than when I've been disabled or that same thing available. I've always actively. And I've never had any issues in there, Jill. And I'm six foot two, built outside the house. But it is pragmatic advice is the important thing. So I think your advice is very wise in that is you have to do what you have to protect yourself.

[00:36:53] Whatever it is, you have to do what you need to do to protect yourself. Right. In terms of if you want to be really threatened. But the key is let's we're making ourselves and lots of trans people talking to each other are making themselves frightened. And you can get this sort of what's called collective unconsciousness, don't you, where the whole community is so terrified to go out. We're creating a problem that doesn't exist. And also the people who are less passable, who can actually pass most of the time on, but most people don't give a thing.

[00:37:20] What we know is we stand out when we're nervous and we're lacking in confidence. And actually also when we're on our own. So I would also say, like many cisgendered women do, when you're going out, you go out with somebody else and if you go out the loo with them, so much the better. Now, sometimes practically you can't do some shopping today. I can't have a phalanx of people there to protect me. And I'm at a certain age where I have to pop to the loo on a regular occasion. And there's various physiological bits which are going on.

[00:37:48] But you can just whiz in and you can just whiz out. And if you're just confident and just get on with it, most people don't notice. And I think what we are trying, I think what the risk is that we're scaring each other in the community rather than saying what this anecdote Levedon said this week is that someone did get challenged, but that other people came to their defence. And I think that's the only after a moment. Indeed. And look, I know I'm speaking to colleagues. I'm not honest about as much as I used to be. And it's easy for me to say this.

[00:38:14] I think there could be circumstances where I would feel very vulnerable, maybe. Maybe in a nightclub or an event like that or something when using a single-sex toilet's web. I don't know. I could imagine places where I do feel nervous again. I think you're absolutely right of that. I always get to back to the point is it's happening. I don't think anything much has changed at the moment. I don't even think this news is going to change that much at the moment. It might be when it gets more publicity.

[00:38:42] I can only speak from my own experience as somebody who everybody would see and know that. And trans, if I'm in the queue in the women's, I've never... The only occasion, Jill, I ever remember, I was in some cubicle women's toilets at one of our HQs up there once. And me and a friend had gone in and we both go into the cubicles next to each other. And you know what we're like as women. And we talk to each other through the cubicle walls, don't we? When we're on the loo. Right?

[00:39:08] And a friend was chatting away to me and I was just chatting away to her and trying to make my voice not seem obviously not feminine. And then I heard from another toilet cubicle somebody saying... A voice came out, is there a man in the toilets? And I said, no, I'm a woman. And she shut up and she's fine with that. So that's the only occasion I could think where... Because they weren't seeing me, so they didn't know that it was when people see me, they realise I'm essentially a woman and that's how I need to be seen.

[00:39:38] Many people will make that very clear assumption. So I think you're right about it's a bit scaremongering at the moment. And I think as a community, we can build up that fear. Because I think there's always a danger. We start to lose the argument by ourselves retreating. The issue about confidence is so very key, Jill. I remember when I first stepped out, once I became relaxed, people stopped noticing me.

[00:40:01] But when I first went to a supermarket and was slightly hiding behind the aisles and just once I realised and relaxed, everything became easier. And so I really relate to that idea of how you... It's not about how you look, but actually just your confidence of saying, I belong here. And that's always been how I've tried to persuade it. But yeah, whether things get worse on this, Jill, about seeing more challenges and everything else, I don't know. Yeah, I don't think that's bad advice.

[00:40:30] I don't think that is bad advice. And I would also encourage people, if they feel that I have been threatened or abused in any premises, to report that to their own supremacists. If they've not felt safe. If I still think we should do that, if I was in a premises and somebody abused me and said, oh, you're not a woman. I think I would make that complaint. Whether it would be getting taken so seriously now, I don't know. But I would still want to do that. Good. And I think that's the point.

[00:40:58] But let's dial things down. Because there's a lot of trans people who are professional speakers who are out there. And they're almost pushing a narrative of fear. And I just want us to make sure that, as we've always said, make sure you've got support. Maybe you've got people around you. There are lots of charities out there who will help. There are lots of charities. I know our own does accompanied visits to places. And if you want help, if you want health care advocacy, there's tons of help and support. You're not on your own.

[00:41:28] You don't have to be on your own. I know it might feel like you're on your own. But the thing about lots of individual people are on their own. When they come together, they're no longer on their own. And that's where you get a bit of perspective, I think. Yeah, that's a very wise word, Jill. And I think there is, it's been a dark all the weeks. But I think we need to start finding some hope. I'll tell you what. Here's a thought. Because clearly I was listening to every single word you were saying when you were chatting away there. But my email did it inadvertently open.

[00:41:54] And I saw a communication from that Labour MP I was telling about this morning. Saying that she was immensely proud and privileged to have come and met such a passionate group of people. How they're going to make a public statement of support. And I think that's, because I've said if you don't want to make a public statement, we'll make it. And you can just join in. Well, you do go away now. You won't wait. You left us for a moment there, Jill. What was that? Oh, yes. I dropped something. Sorry, I dropped something on the floor. I didn't realise the microphone's up on the table. So I am credit to them.

[00:42:24] I think it's lovely. I'm not going to say their name because it's not appropriate. Fair enough. But I think what you have to remember is that there are people out there and they're on our side. And let's stick together. Find other trans people. Find audiences. Get together. It's that thing about seeing your smartly glasses. It's very motivational. Look, we managed to say we want to do a short 15-minute podcast. And an hour and a quarter later, here we are still jabbering away.

[00:42:46] So for the three people that might be left who have fallen asleep to the noise of our witterings and jabberings, sleep well for the first one. And for you, Jen, have a good week. And you. I will. And you. Have a great, make the most of the bank holiday weekend and hope no good weather. And we'll see you soon. We know it's bad weather because apparently there's a threat in Scotland of snow this weekend. Lovely. Yeah. And I don't know what it's like down in your neck of the woods, but it's been a wonderful day. It's been beautiful.

[00:43:16] It's a lovely night. I can't believe we're doing weather. This really is a sign of old biddies again, aren't we? Bye-bye, everyone. Take care. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.

[00:43:43] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.

[00:44:11] But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brick baths, feel free to send it all in to gillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.