Transvox - Hopes and Fears for Trans Rights in 2025

[00:00:07] Hi and welcome back to Transvox and hi to Jenny. How are you, Jenny?

[00:00:13] I'm very well, Gill. I had a nice few days off over Christmas. I hope you've had a good Christmas too.

[00:00:18] I have. Actually, do you know what? I've had this flu thing for a little while. I think the last time we chatted I was still feeling the effects of it. It's been brutal.

[00:00:26] There's something called a hundred day cough or something which I've had.

[00:00:30] Is that right?

[00:00:30] There you are.

[00:00:31] That's a long cough that is.

[00:00:33] Bet you wish you had a nice now.

[00:00:34] No, look, I always think a couple of things you need in life is friends that are a bit fatter than you and friends that feel a bit lousier than you.

[00:00:42] Just makes me feel a bit... It's all relative, isn't it? I feel quite good today, Gill.

[00:00:46] Oh, good. Well, that's good. The last time we chatted, we were chatting just before Christmas and we decided to do a sort of a Christmas roundup and a bit of a chat around Christmas and what Christmas is like and how Christmas can be a lovely time.

[00:01:00] And because we said actually this episode might be a bit heavier, might be a bit more gloomy, but also it's not just... It's okay being gloomy in the world, but I think we have to have some solutions as well.

[00:01:11] So probably maybe we're going to have to think about what needs to happen in the world. I think that's it.

[00:01:17] Yeah, it's always a good time to take stock, I think, I guess. New Year? They're just days like any other days, but it always feels a time to reflect on the year that's gone and maybe what we can look forward to or dread for the year to come.

[00:01:32] And are you a person that makes resolutions? Are you one of those? No.

[00:01:35] Why don't you not bother? No, because I know I wouldn't keep them. So I don't think I've ever really...

[00:01:41] I have done things like started diets on New Year's Day, but I think that's more of anything of just after the Christmas period.

[00:01:47] After a blowout over Christmas, I've never really been one for resolutions. What about you?

[00:01:53] I think what happens is there's too much pressure on resolutions because then you need a lot of willpower to keep them through.

[00:01:58] However, like you say, it's a good gathering point. And I will be starting a diet on the 6th of January, having said all that. But actually, it's really about health and fitness.

[00:02:08] I'm looking forward to some cold weather as well because Christmas Day was, I have to say, it's the warmest Christmas Day ever.

[00:02:13] The known I was out there with my shorts and T-shirt, sunbathing myself, flip-flops on.

[00:02:18] Well, it doesn't take you, George, as much to get your tops off in the freezing weather.

[00:02:22] That is true, actually, I must admit. But it was warm. It was very strange.

[00:02:26] I know we're going to be talking about transgender issues, but my God, climate issues are even more scary, I think.

[00:02:31] Yeah, I think so. Although, didn't one pope once, I don't know if it was this one, it was a couple of popes back on their Christmas speech,

[00:02:40] once said that they felt gender identity or transgender people were a bigger threat than global warming.

[00:02:45] That's right.

[00:02:46] I'm sure I read that, which made me feel quite powerful in a way.

[00:02:52] Well, OK, well, let's have a think back over 2024 and think if there are any lessons to be learned before we turn our attention to 2025.

[00:02:59] Any thoughts about 2024?

[00:03:01] I suppose the lesson to learn is we survived it.

[00:03:03] And that's always a good thing because I think it's difficult.

[00:03:06] Every year seems tricky for our community, doesn't it?

[00:03:09] It seems to be. And this year we were facing two general elections and then we had the publication of the Cass report.

[00:03:17] It seemed very difficult time.

[00:03:19] The politics was very difficult around those elections because suddenly our 1% of the population was being talked about constantly.

[00:03:29] And it got even more crazy in America.

[00:03:32] So it was good to have them over.

[00:03:34] And it was a one-on-all draw for my hopes and outcomes in this country, in America.

[00:03:39] But yeah, it's hard to think of much that was that positive for our community.

[00:03:46] I don't know.

[00:03:47] The change of government was needed.

[00:03:48] And because the last Tory government, to my mind, was so overtly hostile towards our community.

[00:03:55] There were nothing else that needed to change.

[00:03:57] But I don't know.

[00:03:58] What about you?

[00:03:59] I think it's been a strange year.

[00:04:02] I think it's interesting, isn't it?

[00:04:04] I think, like you said, there's been a couple of elections.

[00:04:08] One here, one America.

[00:04:10] That's had a significant impact.

[00:04:12] Slightly less worse here than the UK.

[00:04:15] I think the surprise for me was that the incoming Labour government have done nothing to change the narrative on trans people.

[00:04:21] Really, they've carried on with what the Tories have been doing, but slightly less momentum.

[00:04:25] Slightly less attention to it, I think, which is probably a very good political strategy from them.

[00:04:30] And so it's allowed the sort of heat under the community to turn down a little bit.

[00:04:35] So it's allowed, I think, a lot of people to just be able to take a bit of a breath and relax a little bit.

[00:04:43] Because certainly it felt this time last year that there was quite a lot of momentum against the community.

[00:04:49] In a sense, what happened in the States was this thing where we were used as a sort of a wedge community.

[00:04:53] And in a way in the States, particularly a way of changing laws, which were against the interests and requirements of women and girls.

[00:05:01] And we were the excuse to change the law in the States because there was a religious context to that.

[00:05:06] I don't think that's been quite as obvious here, but definitely something's been going on.

[00:05:10] And I think actually there's two or three things.

[00:05:12] A couple of bits of learning for me.

[00:05:14] The first one is how vulnerable any marginalised group is to a well-organised, funded and consistent series of attacks from a hostile group of people.

[00:05:26] And what it actually shows is that we're extraordinarily fragmented as a group of people.

[00:05:32] We use the word community, but we're not a community.

[00:05:33] And that's part of the problem.

[00:05:35] We're a subset in a group of letters where I don't always think that the rest of the people within those letters are that keen on us being around.

[00:05:47] That's not really my perspective, but I get that.

[00:05:50] Definitely within any wider community, there will be people that have maybe more critical views on that.

[00:05:56] But I still think in the absolute main, the vast majority of our community support trans people.

[00:06:02] Likewise, we do about our fellow members.

[00:06:05] Yes, you're right.

[00:06:06] There's always in any community that there's margins.

[00:06:10] But a different perspective, I didn't really detect that myself.

[00:06:13] I work in LGBT plus networks, LGBTQ networks, and I've seen nothing but support.

[00:06:19] And actually, I've been prepared to have the focus on trans issues.

[00:06:24] But maybe that's just my perspective as an activist rather than...

[00:06:30] Because I just look at the conversations that we have around this within my union or within the NHS.

[00:06:35] And trans stories have dominated that narrative because that's what's in the news.

[00:06:40] And everybody's been really supportive from where I sit.

[00:06:43] So, yeah.

[00:06:45] But I think the whole...

[00:06:46] What you're writing, Jill, absolutely writing, is part of the plan that was dating back more than a decade now

[00:06:53] from the arts of the fundamental right in America was to separate their T off from the LGBT

[00:06:58] and then use that to then undermine the whole community.

[00:07:01] They talked about that.

[00:07:03] If it can start to break up LGBT as a community, as a cohort, that's what they would do.

[00:07:11] And that, to a degree, certainly has happened in America,

[00:07:14] where you're seeing far much more anti-LGBT as a whole, right?

[00:07:18] Right.

[00:07:19] And one of the big learning points for me this year is that we're not...

[00:07:24] No one's clear.

[00:07:25] No one's clear.

[00:07:26] No one seems to be clear in the trans community about what the advocacy point is,

[00:07:29] how to lobby, how to be a community, how to have a single voice moving forward,

[00:07:34] whether we should have a single voice moving forward.

[00:07:36] And I think this is the time and the place and the opportunity, really,

[00:07:40] to start really rethinking in our world what it is that we're trying to get to here.

[00:07:45] And there's a fight for survival, but there's also a fight for acceptance.

[00:07:48] There's a fight for regaining our rights, which I think is quite important.

[00:07:53] Well, I still think...

[00:07:55] I just wouldn't want the impression that in some ways we are a divided community.

[00:07:59] I think there's always parts of it.

[00:08:01] I think you're right.

[00:08:02] I think...

[00:08:03] I speak to a lot of friends in the community.

[00:08:05] They see what happens happening to us as what happened during the panic in the 80s,

[00:08:09] the anti-LGB, the anti-gay panic, the AIDS panic.

[00:08:12] You're seeing all those, Section 28.

[00:08:14] You're seeing all those tactics coming around again.

[00:08:17] Now they're targeting us as part of that community.

[00:08:20] And I do think we need to stick together.

[00:08:22] I do think we are stronger together.

[00:08:24] There are, of course, differences, but there's differences in every part of that rainbow.

[00:08:29] Well, yeah, as for how we do mobilise, we need to...

[00:08:34] One of the reasons we need to be part of that community

[00:08:35] is because we're too small as a group.

[00:08:38] There's 1% of the population or less, and we're disparate.

[00:08:43] We're dispersed.

[00:08:44] Most trans people aren't living next door to somebody else who's trans, are they?

[00:08:47] Or even on the same street.

[00:08:49] Yeah, we do need that big community.

[00:08:51] And I think the way you look at how that community rallied and fought for trans rights

[00:08:55] up until this point has been remarkable.

[00:09:00] But I do think we have to be vigilant because, yes, it would be easy for us to be divided

[00:09:07] because that's what we're trying to do.

[00:09:09] It's every other attack on any minority, as you said.

[00:09:12] We need to be there.

[00:09:13] We need to be there for the fight against racism.

[00:09:15] We need to be there for the fight against misogyny.

[00:09:17] We need to be there with each other for everybody.

[00:09:20] And you'll find that people are progressive in their equality thinking, are pro-trans as

[00:09:27] well as being anti-racist and everything else.

[00:09:30] I just think it's difficult because the powers that we're fighting have power, and we don't

[00:09:36] have power.

[00:09:36] That's the problem.

[00:09:37] We don't have levers in power.

[00:09:40] But I don't know.

[00:09:41] But my point is that it is time to rethink this.

[00:09:45] Because actually, where we are isn't working.

[00:09:50] The strategies we're using aren't working.

[00:09:53] And what we see in the States is what can happen over here.

[00:09:58] But certainly, we don't have the power and influence that's needed in this country at

[00:10:03] a political level, at a social level, and certainly at a financial level to be able to

[00:10:08] make change happen.

[00:10:09] And that's absolutely clear.

[00:10:10] That's just a given at the moment.

[00:10:11] And so for me, what we need to do next year is to be thinking about how do we lobby?

[00:10:16] How do we gain political power?

[00:10:19] How do we actually get enough money to lobby?

[00:10:23] Because actually, and that's the problem of being small.

[00:10:25] And it's also about saying we have a gender issue.

[00:10:28] And a lot of the other letters have sexuality issues.

[00:10:32] We have points of commonality, but we have different agenda.

[00:10:35] Let's find the strength in our differences as well as the strength of being together.

[00:10:39] And let's actually reconnect.

[00:10:41] Because I think what's happened is that as we've got complacent, as success came across

[00:10:47] the whole community, we've forgotten what made us strong in the first place.

[00:10:51] And I have to say, I went to an advocacy group quite recently when we're talking about

[00:10:55] what should be happening in terms of direct action over the course of the next six to nine

[00:11:00] months.

[00:11:01] And so I went away with my head on my hands because actually, the idea of just having

[00:11:05] demonstrations and women's bathrooms is, I think, one of the most depressing things I've

[00:11:10] ever heard.

[00:11:11] And we have to start.

[00:11:12] This is it.

[00:11:13] But this is what's happening in advocacy at the moment.

[00:11:15] I think that's still fringe, though.

[00:11:17] I think that is fringe.

[00:11:18] You will get in any community fringe ideas.

[00:11:20] And I think about the NHS, and there's a lot of work going on.

[00:11:23] Most trusts will have an LGBTQ plus network of some sorts.

[00:11:28] And we do get together at times on a national basis.

[00:11:31] And the focus this year, I've done a number of webinars and sessions with dozens of people

[00:11:36] in there from all around the country.

[00:11:37] The focus has been on trans and gender identity and improving that, trying to get training,

[00:11:42] trying to get policies.

[00:11:43] So the focus is still there.

[00:11:45] I think you're right about we need to be lobbying.

[00:11:49] I think that's definitely right.

[00:11:50] And I think that we have people that we can, because I know within, for instance, the Labour

[00:11:54] Party, there are far more people that will be supportive of our cause than would be in

[00:12:02] the Conservative Party.

[00:12:03] So we've got a better chance.

[00:12:04] I can lobby my local MPs now.

[00:12:06] I can speak to them, which I haven't done yet.

[00:12:08] But I can speak to them because they'll listen to me because they're Labour MPs.

[00:12:12] They'll listen to activists, in my view, from the left and progressive activists than

[00:12:17] previously.

[00:12:17] So I think there is hope for that to happen.

[00:12:20] And yeah, I think demonstrations and things are not.

[00:12:24] I like a rally.

[00:12:26] Don't get me wrong.

[00:12:26] I'm going on the Pride March.

[00:12:27] I've done so many rallies in London in the history of all sorts of political things.

[00:12:33] And I think they're great about, in a sense, you go away from that feeling a bit more positive

[00:12:38] and nothing else.

[00:12:39] That's great to be with a load of compatriots.

[00:12:42] But I don't think it really moves the needle that much.

[00:12:44] I mean, even the massive rally for the Iraq war didn't change because of that policy.

[00:12:48] No.

[00:12:49] And this is my point.

[00:12:51] But I don't think it means we should stop doing it.

[00:12:53] I don't absolutely think we should stop doing it just because it doesn't, because I tell

[00:12:58] you what, it doesn't change anything doing nothing.

[00:13:01] Correct.

[00:13:01] But I think we have to be smarter.

[00:13:03] We have to be smarter in this because the thing about being like any small community,

[00:13:07] you've got to think a lot more strategically than actually just saying, let's have rallies

[00:13:12] and demonstrations of trans kids standing outside the Department of Health and all that sort

[00:13:17] of stuff.

[00:13:17] Lovely stuff and all that sort of stuff.

[00:13:19] It doesn't move the dial.

[00:13:20] It doesn't make change happen.

[00:13:21] And you have to be very careful with direct action.

[00:13:23] You don't end up with an Extinction Rebellion situation where the direct action builds a

[00:13:29] lot of people against them.

[00:13:30] So a lot of the...

[00:13:31] I agree.

[00:13:32] I agree that that isn't the root for us.

[00:13:35] I think, personally, I think with Extinction Rebellion, I think there's a lot to be said

[00:13:39] for that sort of direct action.

[00:13:41] Yes, it might turn the public against you for a while, but I wouldn't criticise it.

[00:13:46] I think for our community, that's not the right approach.

[00:13:48] That's all.

[00:13:48] I don't think I've...

[00:13:50] I'm more than happy to consider things like direct non-violent action in any protest.

[00:13:55] Let's face it, the whole thing started off with the Stonewall riots.

[00:13:58] That was direct action.

[00:13:59] And ultimately, things spread from there.

[00:14:01] In the bigger picture, most of the riots we've fought have been fought by people preparing

[00:14:06] to take to the streets and express their views and take that sort of action.

[00:14:11] Yes, but, Jen, this is where...

[00:14:13] This is my point.

[00:14:14] Yeah.

[00:14:14] That's a long time ago.

[00:14:15] The world has significantly changed.

[00:14:17] It's completely changed.

[00:14:19] The methods and the need for direction has completely changed.

[00:14:22] We need to be different.

[00:14:23] You've got to think differently.

[00:14:25] You've got to think strategically.

[00:14:26] You've got to think about how do we get trans people into positions of power where they'll

[00:14:31] do something.

[00:14:31] We've got Health Secretary, who is supposedly in our community, but I would say is possibly

[00:14:37] the biggest blockage of trans rights that we have, who is listening and receiving

[00:14:41] lobbying from trans organisations, sits down with them, cries in the room when he hears

[00:14:46] the stories and then makes no changes happen.

[00:14:48] What we have to do is to think very differently about the way the trans community are going

[00:14:54] to work together rolling forward.

[00:14:55] And the problem is we're not a community.

[00:14:57] We're disparate groups of people.

[00:14:59] There's a...

[00:15:00] I see the rise of the evidence, the SEGM people at the heart of National Health Service starting

[00:15:05] to change that debate.

[00:15:07] Well, that stands for.

[00:15:07] The rise in the role of colleges changing guidance for doctors, being able to take away

[00:15:13] treatment for trans people.

[00:15:16] We're saying, all right, the BMA are trying to re-look at the CAS review, but that's gained

[00:15:22] too much traction now.

[00:15:23] But we haven't got anybody sitting down and actually say, let's launch, let's fund some

[00:15:28] research, which is actually authentically independent and really come back to the data.

[00:15:33] That research is out there, Jill.

[00:15:34] That research has been done.

[00:15:35] Research after research has shown the positive aspects.

[00:15:39] Maybe not...

[00:15:39] None of it matters.

[00:15:40] But none of it matters.

[00:15:42] I would argue, just saying we need money to fund research, I think you can't harm.

[00:15:47] But it can harm if it never hits the centre of power.

[00:15:51] And what we're not focused on here is, where does the power sit that makes the decisions?

[00:15:56] And how do we get to that power?

[00:15:58] There are CEOs of the large LGBT charities all get together and talk about these things.

[00:16:03] And there is no plan.

[00:16:05] None.

[00:16:06] Except it's moving very quickly against us and we don't really know what to do.

[00:16:10] And then we have a huge degree of disagreement about how to mobilise, how to do something

[00:16:16] about this.

[00:16:17] And you think, I either have to operate a sell approach like terrorists did in the 70s and

[00:16:22] 80s, or you have to get together with the people who are other trans charities.

[00:16:26] You have to fundraise and you have to pay the people who can lobby the people in power.

[00:16:31] If we had someone in Tufton Street at the moment, the way the Tories did, the way that

[00:16:36] the gender critical people did, they were hiring the Tufton Street-based organisations.

[00:16:42] And that's my point.

[00:16:44] The fundamental thing we should be doing is fundraising.

[00:16:48] We should be fundraising.

[00:16:50] The chance to be able to fundraise against Elon Musk, for instance, is pretty impossible.

[00:16:55] I'm not...

[00:16:55] But I'm not talking about Elon Musk.

[00:16:57] I'm not...

[00:16:58] Forget him.

[00:16:59] He's trying to fund politics in the UK.

[00:17:01] Of course.

[00:17:02] With reform.

[00:17:02] What I'm saying is, the place...

[00:17:04] You're absolutely right on that.

[00:17:06] But this is, in a sense, the wider problem of the progressive left.

[00:17:13] It's a wider problem.

[00:17:14] I think for the progressive left, those are being lost.

[00:17:17] The Labour Party's moved to the centre.

[00:17:19] It's centre or pretty centre-right.

[00:17:20] There's not a huge difference between the policies of this government and the Conservatives.

[00:17:24] Not a huge difference.

[00:17:25] Bit of nationalisation of rail aside.

[00:17:30] But that is a battle that's not just ours.

[00:17:32] It's a battle of the whole progressive left.

[00:17:34] My understanding, how much money has come from, for instance, the fundamental Christian movement in America,

[00:17:41] that's come over this way for decades to help fund some of those anti-trans groups like the LGB Alliance, etc.

[00:17:48] You're right.

[00:17:48] We do need to fund.

[00:17:49] But we...

[00:17:50] It doesn't need money to lobby.

[00:17:52] Because I don't think having think tanks might change one or two things.

[00:17:56] But actually, there are things we could do.

[00:17:59] We could organiserly go and speak to our local MPs.

[00:18:01] I think the power of visibility and the power of stories, individuals, is something we could do better at.

[00:18:10] Because the studies show that people end up...

[00:18:12] We get to know a trans person.

[00:18:14] They're much more positive about trans people.

[00:18:16] It's often that people who don't know us, right?

[00:18:18] I think that is something we could do better at.

[00:18:22] So, after the election, I said, I'm going to speak to all my local MPs because I have a chance to talk to them

[00:18:29] and talk to them just about issues of trans people, right?

[00:18:32] And I haven't done it.

[00:18:33] I haven't actually got round and done it.

[00:18:35] And that's...

[00:18:36] If I want to make a resolution, that's something I'm going to do.

[00:18:38] Because those are the people who will be voting.

[00:18:39] So, I know I've got people there I can talk to that I hope I can get some assurance that should any legislator come up,

[00:18:47] that they will be on our side.

[00:18:49] It's not easy.

[00:18:51] No activists like this is easy.

[00:18:53] I think you're right about we need to get together.

[00:18:56] We need to link up as organisations more, as charities, as campaign groups.

[00:19:00] We need to find a way of being more cohesive in our approach.

[00:19:04] I think you're dead right on that, Jill.

[00:19:06] I think that's a nature of, to a degree, a nature of the way the community is.

[00:19:11] Disparate and split.

[00:19:13] We're part of a charity.

[00:19:15] When do we get to actually talk to the other charities about what we can do?

[00:19:19] And other organisations.

[00:19:20] So, I think you're dead right on that.

[00:19:22] I think there's a fundamental problem here, which is that we are assuming that the current environment

[00:19:27] is the same as the environment that we've been operating in the last 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 years.

[00:19:32] So, once you start thinking, OK, what is power in the modern world?

[00:19:38] It is money.

[00:19:39] Simple as that.

[00:19:40] Money funds everything.

[00:19:42] Actually, you can lobby your MP as much as you absolutely want.

[00:19:46] And you can talk to your MPs.

[00:19:48] And the MPs will do absolutely nothing.

[00:19:51] So, I have written to my MP.

[00:19:53] And I have actually done that piece of work.

[00:19:55] And I had a lovely letter back.

[00:19:56] Because this is an area that's strongly Tory.

[00:19:59] It's been strongly Tory for many years.

[00:20:01] And Scott's first ever Labour MP for ages and ages.

[00:20:05] So, I've written to that person.

[00:20:06] And you get a strong sense of, yes, very important, all this sort of stuff.

[00:20:10] So, what are you actually going to do?

[00:20:11] Nothing.

[00:20:12] We're sticking to the cast report.

[00:20:14] We're doing this, that, and the other.

[00:20:15] And there you are.

[00:20:16] That's it.

[00:20:18] That's one MP.

[00:20:19] I'm not saying everything.

[00:20:20] I'm not saying that's be all end up.

[00:20:21] It's the very least that we can do.

[00:20:24] And I'm going to know two or three of our local MPs personally.

[00:20:27] So, I will speak to them.

[00:20:28] But I've been involved in lobbying before that has been successful.

[00:20:31] Not on this particular subject, but through the trade union.

[00:20:34] I remember when the Tories, we managed to get some of the anti-trade union bill changed

[00:20:38] through lobbying and indeed got support of a Conservative MP locally.

[00:20:42] Helped water down the bill or lobbying.

[00:20:45] It does work.

[00:20:46] It isn't a be all end all.

[00:20:48] I don't think money is...

[00:20:49] I think money is always helpful.

[00:20:51] But money is not the answer.

[00:20:52] Because I don't know where that's going to come from.

[00:20:54] There's just not going to be enough to match the power of the...

[00:20:59] At the moment, of the billionaires, right?

[00:21:01] Who are not on our side.

[00:21:02] We don't have...

[00:21:03] But you see this...

[00:21:03] Again, we don't have to match the power of the billions.

[00:21:06] No, no, but...

[00:21:07] We have to match the authority and the influence that comes from having some money.

[00:21:11] And that's where the lobbying, what I'm talking about,

[00:21:13] I'm not talking about the...

[00:21:14] It's because of the innocence that big.

[00:21:16] What I mean by lobbying is just engaging.

[00:21:18] Engaging with people.

[00:21:20] Engaging as much as we can.

[00:21:21] Not being cowed back into the shadows, which is a danger.

[00:21:25] I did a recent webinar where we were talking about training,

[00:21:28] delivering trans awareness training and things.

[00:21:30] And I heard from some people who were almost having to be apologetic in the training

[00:21:35] or give a different point of view.

[00:21:37] And it felt like they need to pull back a bit for fear of, I don't know,

[00:21:40] frightening the horses or something.

[00:21:41] I personally don't think...

[00:21:43] I think it's a real danger if we try and slinker back into the shadows

[00:21:46] and try and have the quiet life for me.

[00:21:48] I think we've still got to try and be visible.

[00:21:51] But you're right.

[00:21:52] It's going to be a long road to get to where...

[00:21:55] At the moment, we need to keep hold of the rights we've got at the moment.

[00:21:58] Personally, I think the aim should be to get back to that self-ID

[00:22:02] that was promised by...

[00:22:04] was offered by Theresa May's government, if you go back that far.

[00:22:08] And it feels like a long road away, that does.

[00:22:11] But you've seen it in other countries.

[00:22:12] We've seen some progressive laws in other countries.

[00:22:16] So it's...

[00:22:16] Which ones?

[00:22:17] I think Spain passed some more progressive laws in the last couple of years.

[00:22:22] I think we've had a rollback in Spain.

[00:22:24] I don't know if that's recently, but they definitely...

[00:22:26] I think Germany now introduced some form of self-ID that's an improvement.

[00:22:33] So you are seeing things happening differently.

[00:22:35] And some American states have been more progressive.

[00:22:38] America's not just one thing.

[00:22:39] They've reduced laws that more enshrine rights.

[00:22:43] We've got to find ways of influence, haven't we?

[00:22:46] And I think we need to...

[00:22:47] Whether there needs to be some big conference or some big get-together

[00:22:50] of like-minded groups...

[00:22:53] I'm just thinking the trade union movement.

[00:22:54] We've got really strong policy.

[00:22:57] We're the biggest union of women in this country.

[00:22:59] And we've got really strong policies supporting trans people

[00:23:03] and LGBT plus people.

[00:23:05] And most trade unions, there's a movement that we could start to use more, right?

[00:23:12] Maybe I need to do more of my part in that.

[00:23:15] So there are things that we can do.

[00:23:17] But I don't think it's not going to be easy.

[00:23:20] We're all living in the real world.

[00:23:22] And I think what our community need to do is to focus on practical things.

[00:23:27] So yes, you can write to your MP.

[00:23:28] That's really important.

[00:23:29] You can coalesce around some of the trans activist charities.

[00:23:33] There's a lot of good stuff coming at the NUS.

[00:23:36] And there's a lot of good work going on in universities and such.

[00:23:39] That's excellent.

[00:23:40] There is no one over-defining...

[00:23:42] My background has always been the corporate world.

[00:23:44] I've not worked in the public sector.

[00:23:45] And I know what happens in the corporate world.

[00:23:47] I know how to make money.

[00:23:48] I know how to raise money.

[00:23:49] I know how to create services which actually have value,

[00:23:52] which people pay for.

[00:23:54] And when you have that degree of money,

[00:23:56] you can fund an influence and lobby.

[00:23:58] And I suppose I'm coming from that background

[00:24:00] because I know if you want to get things done in the corporate world,

[00:24:03] which is actually where all the money sits,

[00:24:06] because there's no money in the National Health Service

[00:24:08] to pay for the sort of work we need to have done,

[00:24:11] you've got to create something that has value,

[00:24:13] that people will buy.

[00:24:14] And I think we need a whole fresh approach

[00:24:17] to thinking around the whole DEI subject,

[00:24:20] which has been, in the corporate world,

[00:24:22] has been not great.

[00:24:23] And I think it's caused a lot of the issues and challenges we have.

[00:24:26] And you're right about our rights being ruled backwards.

[00:24:30] My view is not to go back to self-ID at all.

[00:24:33] I think we should go back even further

[00:24:34] to where actually we get treatment.

[00:24:37] I think that's where we...

[00:24:38] We need treatment.

[00:24:40] So my view is...

[00:24:40] That is definitely true.

[00:24:41] That's definitely true.

[00:24:42] I think one of the worst things has happened...

[00:24:44] I was talking to someone quite recently,

[00:24:46] he was talking to me about what happens in prisons.

[00:24:48] And in their prison, it had 25 trans women.

[00:24:52] And it's not a massive prison,

[00:24:53] but the proportion of women, trans women,

[00:24:56] to the real community is astonishing.

[00:24:59] It's just bizarre how many trans women there were.

[00:25:01] And why are they allowed to...

[00:25:03] Why are there so many trans women?

[00:25:04] Because they get to prison,

[00:25:05] they announce they're transgender,

[00:25:07] and they get all sorts of rights.

[00:25:09] And it affects issues around...

[00:25:12] And it affects issues around...

[00:25:13] And that's self-ID.

[00:25:14] And this is the problem for me.

[00:25:16] As a trans person, I want it to be harder.

[00:25:19] I want there to be a harder...

[00:25:20] Well, that's...

[00:25:21] We mentally disagree.

[00:25:22] I want people who are genuinely trans

[00:25:24] to be treated as genuinely trans.

[00:25:27] And people who are doing it for the afternoon not to.

[00:25:29] Look, we're having a good, robust argument.

[00:25:30] I don't accept the idea of genuinely trans.

[00:25:33] We are either trans or we're not.

[00:25:34] And it's a spectrum.

[00:25:36] People who are trans, people who are not.

[00:25:37] There are a lot of people who aren't.

[00:25:41] It's not a lot.

[00:25:42] There's a tiny majority.

[00:25:44] It's a tiny majority.

[00:25:46] It's a minority.

[00:25:47] It's tiny.

[00:25:48] The scare stories about...

[00:25:50] Whatever.

[00:25:51] There's an issue for the prisons, right?

[00:25:52] The fact that Brianna Jai was not able to be more than buried in a true gender

[00:25:57] because somebody thinks she doesn't know who she is

[00:25:59] because of arbitrary rules

[00:26:01] is frankly cruel and ridiculous, in my view.

[00:26:05] And I think self-ID, the gatekeeping of it,

[00:26:08] there's a danger of gatekeeping of saying

[00:26:10] that somehow people are more trans than others.

[00:26:12] All we're talking about, right,

[00:26:13] it doesn't harm anybody else.

[00:26:15] Self-ID harms nobody.

[00:26:18] Let's just hang on a second.

[00:26:20] I think we're...

[00:26:21] And I think this is part of the problem here.

[00:26:23] I think you and different things when we mean self-ID.

[00:26:27] So what I mean by self-ID

[00:26:29] is legal protection for somebody who's transgender

[00:26:32] to make a legal declaration,

[00:26:35] like happens in Ireland,

[00:26:35] loads of countries,

[00:26:37] of self-ID that basically it's a legal declaration

[00:26:40] because nobody can tell you're trans

[00:26:42] other than yourself,

[00:26:43] you're men and women.

[00:26:44] And we know that detrans rates are tiny,

[00:26:46] so we know people do not do this on a whim.

[00:26:48] I'm not saying there isn't, of course,

[00:26:50] stories of individuals trying to...

[00:26:52] I don't know for whatever reason.

[00:26:54] I can't argue with that,

[00:26:55] but I certainly don't want laws arranged around that.

[00:26:58] I think the current system is cruel.

[00:27:01] To say that you've got to live without those rights

[00:27:04] for two or three years

[00:27:05] before you can be considered to have the rights

[00:27:08] is ridiculous, in my view.

[00:27:09] And there is provably no risk to anybody

[00:27:14] for having better ability

[00:27:17] for people to have legal protection

[00:27:20] who are men and women and non-binary.

[00:27:22] And we haven't even got to having proper respect

[00:27:26] for non-binary people

[00:27:27] in terms of the other countries do have now.

[00:27:30] There is no risk to it.

[00:27:32] It's a political...

[00:27:32] The self-ID law,

[00:27:34] 78% of people responded positively.

[00:27:37] It was those in power that got organised,

[00:27:40] that scared everybody,

[00:27:41] with scare stories like prisons.

[00:27:43] It works in Ireland.

[00:27:44] It's only over the water

[00:27:46] that they've got self-ID now.

[00:27:47] There's absolutely no reason

[00:27:50] why that shouldn't work.

[00:27:52] So let's hold on a second

[00:27:53] because I think there are different elements

[00:27:56] to what you said there.

[00:27:57] Yeah.

[00:27:58] A bit all over the place, isn't it?

[00:28:00] No, it's OK,

[00:28:00] because I think this is part...

[00:28:01] This is where I think we need to,

[00:28:03] as a group,

[00:28:04] all go back to sitting in a room

[00:28:06] and really thrashing out these issues.

[00:28:08] So you talked about a process there, OK?

[00:28:11] And what you said, first of all,

[00:28:13] was someone can declare themselves

[00:28:15] to be something.

[00:28:16] And that's absolutely true

[00:28:18] because the process of identity

[00:28:20] is self-ID

[00:28:21] from the moment you decide

[00:28:23] or you recognise

[00:28:25] or you stop pretending

[00:28:26] or whatever it is.

[00:28:27] And no one's challenging that, right?

[00:28:29] Because that exists in people's heads.

[00:28:31] It's the bit that comes next

[00:28:34] and it's the bit that comes next

[00:28:36] and the entitlement that goes with it.

[00:28:39] So let's say that self-ID

[00:28:41] in terms of making a decision

[00:28:42] and knowing who you are

[00:28:44] is right, OK?

[00:28:45] Then what comes after that

[00:28:47] are the rights that goes with that.

[00:28:49] OK, so hold your horses

[00:28:50] and then at some...

[00:28:51] So it's like you have it

[00:28:53] you're at the centre of a honeycomb, OK?

[00:28:55] So you have your self-ID

[00:28:57] and knowing your gender

[00:28:58] and knowing your...

[00:28:59] Yeah.

[00:28:59] ...lainable rights to be...

[00:29:01] You have your own identity.

[00:29:03] And then round this

[00:29:03] and this honeycomb

[00:29:04] are things like rights,

[00:29:06] equality,

[00:29:07] ability to access services,

[00:29:10] healthcare,

[00:29:11] all that sort of stuff.

[00:29:12] And I think there is something here

[00:29:15] where we have to think about

[00:29:16] at what stage

[00:29:18] and how do we get access

[00:29:20] to those things?

[00:29:21] And what is weaponised against us

[00:29:26] is the idea that if you say

[00:29:28] if you declare yourself

[00:29:29] to be something at one o'clock

[00:29:30] then you're wandering around

[00:29:32] at 20 past one

[00:29:33] and expecting to have the rights

[00:29:37] from a different gender

[00:29:38] which they have spent

[00:29:39] the last 30, 40, 50 years

[00:29:41] themselves desperate to acquire

[00:29:43] and then you're acquiring them

[00:29:45] in 20 minutes.

[00:29:46] And I think this is the bit

[00:29:48] which is...

[00:29:48] This is the problematical bit.

[00:29:50] It's taken cis women

[00:29:52] a long time

[00:29:53] to get a degree of parity

[00:29:54] and equality in the world

[00:29:55] and what they see

[00:29:57] is trans people

[00:29:57] getting that in five seconds.

[00:30:00] And actually...

[00:30:01] What's some, not they.

[00:30:02] Some...

[00:30:02] What we can do

[00:30:03] is you can recognise

[00:30:04] that situation

[00:30:05] and think pragmatically

[00:30:07] in the world

[00:30:08] if we're going to take our place

[00:30:10] in this world

[00:30:11] where there are a lot of people

[00:30:13] who struggle for a long time

[00:30:14] to get the rights

[00:30:15] of the cisgender female population

[00:30:17] it is actually

[00:30:18] something we need

[00:30:20] to just think pragmatically

[00:30:21] how do we fit in here?

[00:30:22] How do we fit in?

[00:30:23] How do we take our place?

[00:30:25] And we should...

[00:30:26] And recognising

[00:30:27] that the people

[00:30:29] who've had that fight

[00:30:30] in their community

[00:30:31] can create a degree

[00:30:33] of resistance

[00:30:34] when we automatically

[00:30:35] get the rights

[00:30:36] associated with our community.

[00:30:38] And you can see

[00:30:39] that's an issue

[00:30:40] for various members

[00:30:42] especially of the feminist

[00:30:44] communities

[00:30:44] and I get why

[00:30:45] because actually

[00:30:46] they're the people

[00:30:46] that fought long...

[00:30:47] I remember my mother

[00:30:48] fighting along and hard

[00:30:50] to have equal rights

[00:30:51] to have equal pay.

[00:30:53] In 1974

[00:30:54] she wanted to get

[00:30:55] a bank account

[00:30:56] and she couldn't

[00:30:56] get a bank account

[00:30:57] without my father

[00:30:58] going and signing

[00:30:58] the forms for her.

[00:30:59] Now I get that.

[00:31:00] I would...

[00:31:00] I'll just push back.

[00:31:01] I don't want

[00:31:02] to generalise statement.

[00:31:03] Many feminists

[00:31:04] support trans people, right?

[00:31:05] It's the trans

[00:31:06] excluding radical feminists

[00:31:07] that don't.

[00:31:08] That's true as well.

[00:31:10] I think I...

[00:31:11] Where I differ with you

[00:31:13] is you accept...

[00:31:14] In saying that somebody

[00:31:16] can do a legal declaration

[00:31:18] and change their gender

[00:31:19] and have that legal protection

[00:31:20] you're saying that harms

[00:31:22] anybody else's rights.

[00:31:24] It does not.

[00:31:24] And this is my point.

[00:31:26] What I think when you...

[00:31:27] So if we're saying

[00:31:28] at one o'clock

[00:31:29] you change your gender

[00:31:31] and announce the world

[00:31:31] and at five past one

[00:31:32] what you're saying

[00:31:33] is you have all the same rights

[00:31:34] as a cisgendered woman

[00:31:35] but you're...

[00:31:36] But we're not saying that actually.

[00:31:37] What we are saying

[00:31:38] is that there should be

[00:31:39] a process to go through

[00:31:40] in terms of maybe...

[00:31:42] I'm not saying that.

[00:31:43] I'm saying it's a legal declaration.

[00:31:45] I don't know

[00:31:46] exactly the details

[00:31:47] of what happens in other countries

[00:31:48] but I suspect it's quite

[00:31:49] a relatively short process.

[00:31:51] So what I'm talking about

[00:31:52] is a relatively short process

[00:31:54] of whatever it has to be

[00:31:55] to legally change your gender.

[00:31:57] And that shouldn't really

[00:31:58] be any more complicated

[00:31:59] than legally changing your name.

[00:32:00] It took me a couple of months

[00:32:01] to get the forms

[00:32:03] and do that.

[00:32:05] But that's what self-ID is.

[00:32:07] Nobody suggested

[00:32:08] it's not done without any...

[00:32:10] We've always suggested

[00:32:11] and I from the very point

[00:32:12] have said

[00:32:13] you would do

[00:32:14] a legal declaration

[00:32:14] but it would be

[00:32:15] a self-declaration.

[00:32:16] It wouldn't be

[00:32:17] a declaration of

[00:32:18] somebody else

[00:32:19] affirming your gender.

[00:32:20] It would be you

[00:32:21] because nobody tells me

[00:32:23] I'm a woman but me

[00:32:24] and that would be the same

[00:32:25] for trans men

[00:32:26] and non-binary people.

[00:32:27] You've been through that.

[00:32:28] So when I talk about

[00:32:29] a legal declaration

[00:32:30] there is a legal record

[00:32:31] of that change, right?

[00:32:33] Now,

[00:32:34] that is what self-ID is.

[00:32:35] That was the proposal.

[00:32:37] Nobody's suggesting

[00:32:37] you just say it

[00:32:38] in your own house

[00:32:39] and then go outside

[00:32:40] and you've got those rights.

[00:32:41] You do have to do something

[00:32:42] but that is so far

[00:32:44] from what we've got now

[00:32:45] where you have a...

[00:32:46] You have to live

[00:32:47] for a period

[00:32:48] and then you can do

[00:32:48] all the stuff

[00:32:49] and then a faceless panel

[00:32:51] can reject your application.

[00:32:52] It is absolutely cruel

[00:32:54] and ridiculous.

[00:32:55] A trans person,

[00:32:56] when I transitioned

[00:32:58] and from that moment

[00:33:00] I've lived as a woman

[00:33:01] every day

[00:33:02] from that Monday onwards,

[00:33:03] I should have had

[00:33:04] legal protection

[00:33:05] and I didn't

[00:33:06] because the law

[00:33:07] wasn't there then.

[00:33:08] And there is some protection

[00:33:09] against discrimination

[00:33:10] because of gender identity.

[00:33:11] I should be able to be

[00:33:13] if I'm buried

[00:33:15] in my gender

[00:33:17] without a gender recognition certificate,

[00:33:18] I should,

[00:33:19] without this lengthy process,

[00:33:21] the rights

[00:33:21] that we haven't got,

[00:33:22] the right

[00:33:22] when it comes

[00:33:23] to getting married,

[00:33:24] the rights to other things,

[00:33:26] it's those sort of things

[00:33:27] we're talking about.

[00:33:28] As long as what you're saying

[00:33:29] is there's a legal declaration

[00:33:30] and a name change.

[00:33:31] Yeah,

[00:33:32] but that's what...

[00:33:32] You don't have to change your name.

[00:33:34] That should never be the case

[00:33:36] because you shouldn't.

[00:33:37] No trans people

[00:33:38] have ever been made

[00:33:38] a name change.

[00:33:39] But there's always

[00:33:40] going to be a legal declaration.

[00:33:41] But that's a self-declaration

[00:33:42] through getting a lawyer

[00:33:44] and getting witnesses

[00:33:45] to sign something

[00:33:46] like you do

[00:33:47] with your name change.

[00:33:48] You have to have witnesses

[00:33:49] to sign for that.

[00:33:50] I had no problem with that.

[00:33:51] What I have a problem with

[00:33:52] is having to wait

[00:33:53] two years for somebody

[00:33:54] who's taken the big step

[00:33:56] of transitioning

[00:33:58] and probably really struggled

[00:33:59] to get to that point

[00:34:00] to be able to do that

[00:34:02] and get your passport,

[00:34:03] get all those things

[00:34:04] that you need

[00:34:05] that just make...

[00:34:06] And all to do

[00:34:06] is just make life

[00:34:07] a bit more bearable.

[00:34:09] Let's just say this.

[00:34:10] Here's a thought.

[00:34:11] Let's just say

[00:34:12] we agree on the idea

[00:34:13] that we can self-identify

[00:34:15] in the sense of

[00:34:16] making our minds up

[00:34:18] and understanding

[00:34:18] what our gender is.

[00:34:19] Okay, okay.

[00:34:20] And then how about

[00:34:21] if we said that

[00:34:22] in order to be...

[00:34:23] to get the rights

[00:34:27] to...

[00:34:27] of the other gender,

[00:34:29] whichever gender that is,

[00:34:30] which way we've gone.

[00:34:32] Let's not even go

[00:34:33] into non-binary for the minute

[00:34:34] because that's

[00:34:34] a whole level of chaos.

[00:34:36] But you get

[00:34:37] a gender recognition

[00:34:38] certificate.

[00:34:39] It gives you

[00:34:40] your new gender.

[00:34:41] It puts those things together.

[00:34:43] And for me,

[00:34:44] at that point,

[00:34:44] what you do

[00:34:45] is you say,

[00:34:46] now I am entitled

[00:34:47] to the rights

[00:34:48] of that gender.

[00:34:48] And now I'm entitled

[00:34:49] to the rights,

[00:34:50] the health rights,

[00:34:51] the legal rights

[00:34:52] of that gender.

[00:34:54] And that, for me,

[00:34:55] is what I've been saying

[00:34:56] for the whole time.

[00:34:57] What I've been talking about

[00:34:58] is the idea

[00:34:59] that you can actually

[00:35:00] at the moment

[00:35:00] declare yourself

[00:35:02] to be female or male

[00:35:03] without a gender

[00:35:04] recognition certificate.

[00:35:06] There should be

[00:35:07] a self-declaration

[00:35:08] and it is not

[00:35:09] to be gatekept

[00:35:10] by the medical community,

[00:35:13] psychiatrists,

[00:35:13] the medical community

[00:35:14] or a panel.

[00:35:16] They're not going

[00:35:16] to decide

[00:35:17] whether I'm my gender.

[00:35:18] Let's have a look

[00:35:19] at what happens

[00:35:19] in Ireland

[00:35:20] and Argentina

[00:35:20] and many other countries

[00:35:22] now that have

[00:35:23] a self-ID process.

[00:35:25] So it's simple enough.

[00:35:26] I think in Germany,

[00:35:27] they're talking about

[00:35:28] you have to present yourself

[00:35:29] at somewhere,

[00:35:30] I think.

[00:35:31] They're talking about

[00:35:31] you actually have to

[00:35:32] present yourself

[00:35:33] at a court or something

[00:35:34] to do it.

[00:35:35] I've no problem with those.

[00:35:36] So you could do that

[00:35:37] where you have to go

[00:35:38] and, I don't know,

[00:35:39] even attest in court.

[00:35:40] But it should be

[00:35:41] a very streamlined,

[00:35:42] quick process.

[00:35:43] And the key point,

[00:35:44] it is self-declaration,

[00:35:45] not at the hands

[00:35:47] of somebody else.

[00:35:48] OK, so I get that.

[00:35:50] And that's going to take

[00:35:51] longer than five minutes.

[00:35:52] So what happens

[00:35:52] is I don't declare myself

[00:35:55] my new gender

[00:35:55] at one o'clock

[00:35:56] and four minutes later

[00:35:57] I don't know

[00:35:57] why I have all those rights.

[00:35:59] Yes, but that is

[00:36:01] the narrative.

[00:36:02] That is the narrative

[00:36:03] used by

[00:36:05] non-trans people

[00:36:07] because people

[00:36:07] don't understand this.

[00:36:09] And that's where

[00:36:10] the whole process,

[00:36:12] the narrative

[00:36:12] needs to change

[00:36:13] because basically

[00:36:14] if we're saying that

[00:36:15] we should get the rights

[00:36:16] of the other gender

[00:36:18] once we have a gender

[00:36:19] recognition certificate,

[00:36:20] that is going to take,

[00:36:22] that's a process,

[00:36:22] it's going to take

[00:36:23] a degree of time

[00:36:24] and actually gives us

[00:36:26] credibility.

[00:36:27] You have to work

[00:36:28] in the real world

[00:36:29] and the real world today

[00:36:30] is that there's huge amounts

[00:36:31] of anti-trans rhetoric.

[00:36:34] No, exactly.

[00:36:35] But what's happening

[00:36:36] is we have to change tactics.

[00:36:38] We've got to change

[00:36:39] the strategy

[00:36:39] of how we get changed

[00:36:40] to happen

[00:36:41] because it won't happen.

[00:36:43] None of it's going

[00:36:44] to happen at the moment

[00:36:45] because what's happening

[00:36:45] is we're getting

[00:36:46] a wonderful template

[00:36:48] at the moment

[00:36:48] from Hungary,

[00:36:51] Eastern Europe,

[00:36:52] America now

[00:36:53] of how,

[00:36:53] about anti-trans rhetoric

[00:36:55] being able to give you

[00:36:56] power.

[00:36:57] I think what we have to,

[00:36:59] it's the thing in business

[00:37:01] we say,

[00:37:01] you can't keep hitting

[00:37:03] the same thing

[00:37:04] over the head

[00:37:05] and expecting

[00:37:06] different results.

[00:37:07] I get that.

[00:37:08] Maybe strategy,

[00:37:09] I don't quite know

[00:37:10] what the strategy is

[00:37:12] and I don't quite know

[00:37:12] what a strategy is now.

[00:37:14] I do know

[00:37:14] that rights

[00:37:15] have been won

[00:37:16] by campaigning,

[00:37:18] by...

[00:37:20] Throughout history

[00:37:20] we've won rights.

[00:37:23] We've lost

[00:37:23] a few rights recently

[00:37:24] but the general progress

[00:37:25] if you look

[00:37:26] going back

[00:37:26] to 100 years

[00:37:27] is we are...

[00:37:28] I am not going

[00:37:29] to give up on that.

[00:37:30] I think what we don't do

[00:37:31] is by ceding the arguments

[00:37:33] to those that want

[00:37:33] us not to exist.

[00:37:35] By starting to apologise

[00:37:36] for ourselves.

[00:37:37] By starting to say

[00:37:38] I'm sorry

[00:37:39] and so forth.

[00:37:40] The arguments need...

[00:37:41] I know but...

[00:37:42] What we're saying is

[00:37:43] we need to think

[00:37:45] of a new way

[00:37:46] to get the rights back

[00:37:48] that we have lost

[00:37:49] and we will never do it

[00:37:50] by doing it the same way

[00:37:52] as we always have.

[00:37:52] I think we're on the same page.

[00:37:53] I think you're right.

[00:37:54] I don't know what

[00:37:55] quite the answer is

[00:37:56] but I do think...

[00:37:57] I do think there's a danger

[00:37:58] with us trying to be apologetic

[00:38:00] and go back into the shadows.

[00:38:01] I still think there's

[00:38:02] enough people

[00:38:03] that support us.

[00:38:04] There are still enough

[00:38:05] people out there

[00:38:06] that support us

[00:38:06] that love trans people

[00:38:07] that we can get there

[00:38:09] and actually the truth

[00:38:10] of the matter is

[00:38:10] most people don't care

[00:38:12] much either way, right?

[00:38:13] Even though the election results

[00:38:15] have been a bit weird

[00:38:16] over it

[00:38:17] like in America

[00:38:17] it isn't actually

[00:38:19] the reason why people

[00:38:20] voted for the Republicans

[00:38:21] in any large number.

[00:38:23] They voted on the economy.

[00:38:25] That's what everybody

[00:38:25] votes on.

[00:38:26] Yeah, of course.

[00:38:27] It's been a tactic

[00:38:28] but I don't think

[00:38:30] it may be...

[00:38:31] We'll start to disappear.

[00:38:33] Just look about

[00:38:35] the portrayal

[00:38:36] of trans people

[00:38:37] in film and television drama.

[00:38:40] It is so much more positive

[00:38:42] than it was

[00:38:43] a decade or more ago.

[00:38:45] So much more positive.

[00:38:46] So you see areas

[00:38:47] and you've talked about

[00:38:48] this in the arts

[00:38:48] where trans people

[00:38:50] are being embraced

[00:38:51] and acceptance is there.

[00:38:53] So I think that's something

[00:38:55] we ought to be positive

[00:38:56] and that's something

[00:38:56] we can use

[00:38:57] because that soft power

[00:38:58] that helps.

[00:38:59] Oh God, this has been

[00:39:00] a heavy one, Jill.

[00:39:01] I told it was going to be.

[00:39:02] And actually...

[00:39:03] Yeah, I like a good

[00:39:05] semi-disagreement.

[00:39:07] I think, in a way,

[00:39:09] what you've solidified

[00:39:10] in my head is that

[00:39:12] the reason we have

[00:39:12] this podcast

[00:39:13] is to have a voice

[00:39:14] and the reason

[00:39:15] you've got a measure

[00:39:16] of power and influence

[00:39:17] is the National Health Service.

[00:39:18] I belong to an organisation

[00:39:19] that's a trade body

[00:39:20] for all engineering charities.

[00:39:22] I don't think I'm much power.

[00:39:23] Influence.

[00:39:24] And we've got different levels

[00:39:26] of power and influence

[00:39:26] in different places

[00:39:27] and I think it's time

[00:39:28] quite taken by the idea

[00:39:29] of having a conference actually.

[00:39:31] And because one of the things

[00:39:32] I did is I attended

[00:39:35] a relatively interesting

[00:39:37] fringe group.

[00:39:38] It was very left-wing.

[00:39:38] It was heavily unionised.

[00:39:40] It was a lot of left-wing bodies

[00:39:42] who had come together

[00:39:43] about, I think there were

[00:39:44] about 60 trans people

[00:39:46] on that call.

[00:39:48] And it was interesting

[00:39:50] because, of course,

[00:39:50] what they got themselves

[00:39:51] lost in is a similar degree

[00:39:53] to what we got lost in,

[00:39:55] which is an argument

[00:39:56] about the argument.

[00:39:58] That's true.

[00:39:59] That is true.

[00:40:02] That's probably not

[00:40:03] that productive

[00:40:04] at the end, is it?

[00:40:05] And what they never got to

[00:40:06] and I think is the risk

[00:40:07] for our world

[00:40:09] is that we won't get there.

[00:40:10] And I think part of that

[00:40:11] is there's a lot of us

[00:40:12] who work in the corporate world

[00:40:13] who are quite frustrated

[00:40:14] with the lack of action

[00:40:16] because, of course,

[00:40:17] we're corporate people

[00:40:18] and we're used to actually

[00:40:19] going to a meeting

[00:40:20] and something happening.

[00:40:21] But I'm not going to be

[00:40:22] sitting here

[00:40:23] and thinking that

[00:40:24] corporate capitalism

[00:40:25] is going to get to

[00:40:26] win our rights.

[00:40:27] It never has to.

[00:40:28] It will.

[00:40:28] It will.

[00:40:29] And this is the point.

[00:40:32] This is the point

[00:40:33] that people don't understand

[00:40:34] because what happens

[00:40:35] is people start

[00:40:35] with their relative ideologies

[00:40:37] and I accept

[00:40:38] I have my ideology as well.

[00:40:40] And instead of saying

[00:40:41] let's park those ideologies

[00:40:42] or let's figure out

[00:40:43] how to use those ideologies,

[00:40:45] capitalism supports

[00:40:46] the right to trans people

[00:40:47] because it's very simple.

[00:40:48] Basically,

[00:40:49] we spend quite a lot of money

[00:40:50] in the private sector

[00:40:51] at the moment

[00:40:52] as a community.

[00:40:53] We have more rights

[00:40:56] than we realise

[00:40:57] because of how much money

[00:40:58] we spend.

[00:40:59] And there are lots

[00:41:00] of trans people

[00:41:01] in the world

[00:41:01] who do spend a lot

[00:41:02] of money on operations

[00:41:03] who are funding

[00:41:04] some of the big

[00:41:05] gender-based

[00:41:07] medicalised organisations

[00:41:08] because there must be

[00:41:09] plenty of demand

[00:41:10] because there are

[00:41:11] more and more services

[00:41:12] springing up

[00:41:12] and this is the bit

[00:41:13] that's not mobilised.

[00:41:14] I was having a conversation

[00:41:15] with someone saying

[00:41:16] I wouldn't listen

[00:41:16] to what a Tory thought

[00:41:17] and thinking

[00:41:18] you've got to listen

[00:41:19] to what Tories think

[00:41:20] because they're part

[00:41:21] of the solution

[00:41:22] and we can't

[00:41:24] we've got to mobilise

[00:41:25] a community

[00:41:25] based on trans issues

[00:41:27] not on the other ideologies.

[00:41:29] I agree to you

[00:41:30] to agree with that

[00:41:31] we do have to listen

[00:41:31] and we have to persuade

[00:41:33] there are people

[00:41:33] I'm not going to listen to

[00:41:34] we can persuade

[00:41:35] and there are plenty

[00:41:36] of Conservatives

[00:41:37] who are pro-trans rights

[00:41:38] as well.

[00:41:39] Why aren't we putting

[00:41:40] trans people

[00:41:40] why aren't we putting

[00:41:41] trans people up

[00:41:41] to stand as members

[00:41:42] of Parliament?

[00:41:44] Exactly.

[00:41:45] Exactly.

[00:41:46] What do you mean

[00:41:46] we put up?

[00:41:47] The community.

[00:41:49] Because the community

[00:41:50] where's the next

[00:41:51] this is my point

[00:41:52] where are we sitting down

[00:41:54] saying how do we support

[00:41:55] the rights of trans people

[00:41:56] to be able to become MPs?

[00:41:58] They do

[00:41:59] but they haven't got

[00:42:00] at this point in time

[00:42:01] elected.

[00:42:02] Susie Izzard

[00:42:03] has stood

[00:42:04] three times

[00:42:05] and come second

[00:42:05] in the constituency

[00:42:06] in the primary

[00:42:07] and didn't get selected

[00:42:08] in the end

[00:42:09] but came very close.

[00:42:10] Ah there you are

[00:42:10] didn't get selected.

[00:42:12] That's right

[00:42:13] but we're a small

[00:42:14] we're 1% of the population

[00:42:15] right

[00:42:15] so we're never going to

[00:42:16] So why is that?

[00:42:16] The reason Susie Izzard

[00:42:18] wasn't selected

[00:42:18] is that we weren't smart

[00:42:19] enough in the way

[00:42:20] that Susie Izzard

[00:42:21] was proposed

[00:42:21] supported

[00:42:22] and lobbied

[00:42:23] and having power

[00:42:24] behind them

[00:42:24] to make change.

[00:42:25] What I'm saying is

[00:42:26] there are people

[00:42:26] that stand in

[00:42:27] there are people

[00:42:28] in local authority

[00:42:28] you're starting to see that

[00:42:29] I guess you're right

[00:42:30] but the answer is

[00:42:31] then me and you

[00:42:32] should stand

[00:42:34] because the way

[00:42:35] you make change happen

[00:42:36] is you go

[00:42:37] to the people

[00:42:38] who are against you

[00:42:39] and you infiltrate them

[00:42:41] that's how

[00:42:42] change happens

[00:42:43] it doesn't happen

[00:42:44] from the outside

[00:42:45] The old UKIP

[00:42:46] did have a trans woman

[00:42:48] in the European Parliament

[00:42:49] didn't they

[00:42:49] Exactly

[00:42:49] But that aside

[00:42:52] listen I'm never going to

[00:42:54] allow myself

[00:42:55] Would you

[00:42:56] accept a reformed government

[00:42:58] that actually gave

[00:42:59] full trans rights?

[00:43:01] No

[00:43:02] I would not say

[00:43:04] oh I'll have my rights

[00:43:06] where we've got a country

[00:43:07] that would

[00:43:07] hit every

[00:43:09] would be racist

[00:43:10] I regard Nigel Farage

[00:43:11] as a racist

[00:43:12] right

[00:43:12] so I would not

[00:43:15] look

[00:43:15] I would not

[00:43:16] sell my soul

[00:43:17] I can hear yourself

[00:43:18] being tied up

[00:43:19] on that one

[00:43:19] No not tied in knots

[00:43:21] there's no way

[00:43:21] I'm a

[00:43:23] listen I'm a socialist

[00:43:24] I'm a trade union

[00:43:25] I'm not going to

[00:43:26] it shouldn't be

[00:43:27] oh you can have your rights

[00:43:28] but then somebody else

[00:43:28] will be marginalised

[00:43:29] I don't care how

[00:43:30] I get trans rights

[00:43:31] I'll support the most

[00:43:33] horrendous people

[00:43:33] as long as I get my rights

[00:43:34] I get my drugs

[00:43:36] give me my drugs baby

[00:43:39] That's the problem people

[00:43:40] this is thatcherism

[00:43:42] writ large

[00:43:42] as long as you're alright

[00:43:43] it's all fact

[00:43:45] I'll still maintain that

[00:43:46] No we're just having fun

[00:43:48] I think you're right

[00:43:50] but the point about

[00:43:51] actually

[00:43:53] there's one thing

[00:43:54] I thought about

[00:43:54] is I had a chance

[00:43:55] to stand for council

[00:43:56] at one point

[00:43:57] I was asked

[00:43:59] within the local

[00:43:59] Labour Party

[00:44:00] and that could have been

[00:44:01] a route into politics

[00:44:02] I didn't have the confidence

[00:44:03] to do it

[00:44:04] stood for elections

[00:44:05] within my union

[00:44:06] as a woman

[00:44:07] in a women's only seat

[00:44:09] and been elected

[00:44:09] to a national

[00:44:12] representing

[00:44:13] 40,000 health workers

[00:44:14] in the West Midlands

[00:44:15] so I've done that

[00:44:17] I haven't

[00:44:18] followed that through

[00:44:20] or been successful

[00:44:21] and there are people

[00:44:22] doing that all over the place

[00:44:23] there are

[00:44:24] a number of people

[00:44:25] that stood

[00:44:25] with trans

[00:44:26] so that's happening

[00:44:27] more so than there was before

[00:44:29] so it is

[00:44:30] it may take time

[00:44:31] it may take time

[00:44:33] but I think you're right

[00:44:35] we've got to do things differently

[00:44:36] I think

[00:44:36] gosh we've probably

[00:44:38] tested everybody's patience

[00:44:39] Jill haven't we

[00:44:40] I think I'll be doing

[00:44:41] a severe release

[00:44:42] on this

[00:44:44] I'll say

[00:44:46] hello

[00:44:47] and then

[00:44:47] happy new year

[00:44:48] and then I'll say

[00:44:49] no look it's been fun

[00:44:50] the point is

[00:44:50] we do need to have

[00:44:51] these conversations

[00:44:52] we need to

[00:44:52] come out the other side

[00:44:54] with something

[00:44:55] more positive

[00:44:56] than

[00:44:56] just desperately hoping

[00:44:58] to keep where we are

[00:44:59] it's important to recognise

[00:45:00] there are different streams

[00:45:02] there are different ideologies

[00:45:03] there are different opinions

[00:45:04] in our world

[00:45:05] and that's part of the reason

[00:45:08] we're factionalised

[00:45:09] we don't come together

[00:45:10] because

[00:45:11] because actually

[00:45:12] we're all here

[00:45:13] with a vested interest

[00:45:14] to improve our trans rights

[00:45:15] I don't care

[00:45:16] whether you're

[00:45:17] anything else

[00:45:19] other than the fact

[00:45:20] you're trans

[00:45:20] because it's the only reason

[00:45:21] we're here

[00:45:21] and I think

[00:45:22] if we put those rights

[00:45:23] to the top

[00:45:24] that might exist

[00:45:26] more in the corporate world

[00:45:27] than it does

[00:45:28] in the world I live in

[00:45:29] because that's just

[00:45:29] not my experience

[00:45:30] that's a bit of hope

[00:45:32] when I see younger communities

[00:45:34] they're so much more relaxed

[00:45:36] about these issues

[00:45:37] and that's lovely

[00:45:39] but I'm a bit older than you

[00:45:40] and I can't

[00:45:41] I don't have the time

[00:45:42] to wait 30 years

[00:45:43] it might not happen

[00:45:44] in your lifetime

[00:45:45] or my lifetime

[00:45:46] it might not do

[00:45:47] but let's stop fighting

[00:45:49] you know

[00:45:49] let's stop fighting each other

[00:45:51] then and then turn our attention

[00:45:52] to the people

[00:45:53] that really need to be fought

[00:45:54] and I think that's

[00:45:54] and I think that's one

[00:45:55] of the important messages

[00:45:56] that's definitely true Jill

[00:45:57] I think it's time

[00:45:58] we as a bunch of trans people

[00:46:00] we need to wrap each

[00:46:00] our arms around each other

[00:46:02] and just

[00:46:02] if we can't reach out

[00:46:03] and help each other

[00:46:04] I think this is a really

[00:46:05] important thing

[00:46:06] that we all have to do

[00:46:07] I think your idea

[00:46:08] of the conference is great

[00:46:09] I think I'm going to get on

[00:46:10] and get organising

[00:46:11] with that through the trade body

[00:46:12] and I'm going to put

[00:46:14] something together

[00:46:14] in January on that

[00:46:15] yeah I think

[00:46:17] focused around

[00:46:17] what you're talking about

[00:46:18] is how

[00:46:18] rather than

[00:46:21] just shouting

[00:46:22] at people

[00:46:22] that we don't like

[00:46:24] actually say

[00:46:25] what can we do to

[00:46:26] I think

[00:46:26] there's something positive

[00:46:28] around that

[00:46:29] I'd just say

[00:46:29] the one group

[00:46:30] I always think

[00:46:31] of when you think

[00:46:31] about these issues

[00:46:32] there's a group

[00:46:32] that I've worked with

[00:46:34] called Hope Not Hate

[00:46:34] we've worked with

[00:46:35] in Stoke-on-Trent

[00:46:36] who were tackling

[00:46:38] far-right politics

[00:46:39] around the country

[00:46:40] but in Stoke-on-Trent

[00:46:41] we had these

[00:46:42] far-right councillors

[00:46:44] the BMP

[00:46:45] and their message

[00:46:46] was purely positive

[00:46:47] and they did

[00:46:48] no end

[00:46:49] we put concerts on

[00:46:50] in Stoke-on-Trent

[00:46:51] and that's the message

[00:46:52] a Hope Not Hate message

[00:46:54] is one that I think

[00:46:54] we should organise around

[00:46:56] I love that

[00:46:57] and that's a winning argument

[00:47:00] I think

[00:47:03] Hope Not Hate

[00:47:04] listen

[00:47:05] we need to stop

[00:47:05] we do

[00:47:07] I don't know how

[00:47:07] you're going to edit this

[00:47:08] and if any poor listeners

[00:47:09] listened

[00:47:09] the whole

[00:47:11] of that

[00:47:11] of that rambling

[00:47:12] well done you

[00:47:15] see you next time round

[00:47:16] and you take care

[00:47:17] bye bye

[00:47:22] thanks for listening

[00:47:24] to this episode

[00:47:25] of Transvox

[00:47:26] it's been a joy

[00:47:27] to have you with us

[00:47:27] if you want to

[00:47:28] make contact with us

[00:47:30] you can contact us

[00:47:31] at

[00:47:31] Gillian

[00:47:32] at

[00:47:32] transvox.co.uk

[00:47:34] and all of our money

[00:47:36] goes to our

[00:47:37] nominated charity

[00:47:38] and Jen

[00:47:39] you've chosen the charity

[00:47:40] for the next

[00:47:41] number of episodes

[00:47:42] which one have you chosen?

[00:47:43] our charity is called

[00:47:44] Beyond Reflections

[00:47:46] which is a charity

[00:47:47] that provides

[00:47:48] support

[00:47:48] and counselling

[00:47:49] to trans people

[00:47:50] non-binary people

[00:47:51] and their friends

[00:47:52] and their families

[00:47:53] across the UK

[00:47:54] an amazing charity

[00:47:56] doing some amazing work

[00:47:57] really important

[00:47:58] so pleased if you can give

[00:48:00] great

[00:48:01] and if you want to go

[00:48:01] and have a look

[00:48:02] at Beyond Reflections

[00:48:03] it's beyond-reflections.org.uk

[00:48:05] but as I say

[00:48:07] if you'd like to make

[00:48:07] a contribution

[00:48:08] to what we're doing

[00:48:09] because we love to help

[00:48:10] the people who help us

[00:48:11] again

[00:48:12] if you've got ideas

[00:48:12] for the show

[00:48:14] things you'd like to ask us

[00:48:15] questions, comments

[00:48:17] applause

[00:48:17] or brickbaths

[00:48:19] feel free to send it all in

[00:48:20] to Jillian

[00:48:21] at franzvox.co.uk

[00:48:24] until the next time

[00:48:25] goodbye

[00:48:26] bye bye