Transvox - Getting a Job as a Trans person - some thoughts!

[00:00:00] Hi and welcome back to Transvox and welcome to Jenny who's sitting in front of me, resplendent

[00:00:15] as always.

[00:00:16] I'm back by no public demand.

[00:00:20] Hi Gill.

[00:00:21] Resplendent in your Darth Vader outfit today.

[00:00:24] I thought that's very appropriate for the day.

[00:00:26] I'm feeling a bit hot to be honest, but you know, I do like to embrace my dark side.

[00:00:31] And he did get redemption in the end.

[00:00:34] He did and he found his son and daughter.

[00:00:40] I won't talk about needing to go to the second hand shop.

[00:00:43] So let's move right on immediately and start talking about, I tell you what, we want

[00:00:47] to talk today about something very practical and something really important because something

[00:00:53] I've noticed, I don't know what you think about this, but a lot of people when they

[00:00:57] transition have the stress of handling the whole process for themselves.

[00:01:01] Then they bump into the relationship issues and often that means they lose their relationships.

[00:01:06] Sometimes that means they have to get thrown out of their houses and housing and such

[00:01:10] like lose housing.

[00:01:11] And sometimes they lose jobs as well for all sorts of different reasons, whatever

[00:01:15] that might be.

[00:01:16] And therefore you can find yourself on benefits, sort of struggling around without when

[00:01:21] you're at work. Traditionally, what tends to happen is you can get depressed because

[00:01:24] you lack work, you lack that structured time, you lack money, you lack self-esteem.

[00:01:29] So what we want to talk about today is how do you get into the workplace?

[00:01:32] So either how do you get a job?

[00:01:34] And then on another episode, we might handle how you get promotion.

[00:01:37] But let's talk first of all about you don't have a job and you want to get a job.

[00:01:42] So I know the stats look pretty horrible on this, Jen, don't they?

[00:01:46] Yeah, I mean, we have high as a community, we have higher levels of levels of

[00:01:50] unemployment. And I remember reading a survey, it's a few years old now, maybe

[00:01:54] five, six, five years old that talked about how this, I think it was Solisters

[00:01:59] survey companies that admitted they wouldn't necessarily hire a trans person.

[00:02:03] Whether that's changed now, I'd like to hope.

[00:02:06] But I think for a lot of trans people, they can end up out of work just because

[00:02:11] the challenge of transitioning in the workplace, if you don't get accepted, I

[00:02:15] know for some people and I've spoken to it, they feel like having a fresh start,

[00:02:19] work was the last place I transitioned.

[00:02:22] So it was the last hurdle being accepted at work.

[00:02:25] So that can inevitably end up with maybe you leaving the job and saying, I want

[00:02:28] a fresh start where nobody knows my gender history and I can understand that.

[00:02:32] But then there's always a challenge, certainly in the UK right now,

[00:02:36] about anybody getting a job.

[00:02:37] So let alone if you're trans and maybe have some hurdles to get over.

[00:02:43] Yeah. And I think one of the things to bear in mind is that what employers

[00:02:47] don't always understand, and that's part of us to educate the community, isn't

[00:02:51] it? Which is if you have a trans person and you accept them, you probably

[00:02:55] have the most passionate, fiercely loyal, most committed person in your

[00:03:00] workforce because to be just accepted as accepted as trans is such an

[00:03:05] enabling thing. So if you go to hire someone who's trans and you're going

[00:03:08] to accept them, you're actually you're onto a pretty good thing, I

[00:03:11] always think. And I don't think that case is made well enough from time

[00:03:15] to time.

[00:03:16] No, I, you're absolutely right there.

[00:03:19] I mean, I am still grateful to this day that I was my employer supported me

[00:03:24] with that transition.

[00:03:25] And, you know, I'm loyal to my employer.

[00:03:29] But part of that is because when I needed them, they did.

[00:03:32] I mean, vice versa, if the employer doesn't manage it well, I can I can see

[00:03:36] I can see the other side of that.

[00:03:38] But if they do, absolutely, there are real benefits.

[00:03:41] And, you know, without going into the wider benefits of having a diverse

[00:03:45] workforce with diverse experience and how that is better for customers,

[00:03:49] better for patients in terms of the NHS and everything else.

[00:03:52] And the evidence is there.

[00:03:53] But you're absolutely right, Jill.

[00:03:56] So so it's and in a funny sort of way, a lot of the steps we're going

[00:04:00] to talk about today are don't matter whether you're trans or non-trans,

[00:04:03] but the trans creates a bit of wrinklage around the whole thing.

[00:04:07] So for so for for some people,

[00:04:10] one of the challenges they're going to have is the level of where they are

[00:04:13] in transition.

[00:04:14] So you may be the place, for example, where you have

[00:04:18] you've not begun to do the name change,

[00:04:21] but it hasn't fed through to all the legal places.

[00:04:24] So one of the things you're going to have to manage and I can be

[00:04:28] and it can be it can be a tricky process to deal with.

[00:04:32] Is you're going to have to handle your old dead name as well

[00:04:35] as your current name, because it may well be, for example,

[00:04:38] if you're going to be DBS checked, I don't know if that DBS is the right word.

[00:04:41] The disbar, disbarring and yes.

[00:04:45] Or if it's just going to be, you know,

[00:04:47] giving you a national insurance number or it's going to maybe

[00:04:50] give a reference for someone who doesn't know you're trans.

[00:04:52] I think it's it's the place where sometimes this is where your

[00:04:56] your previous and past your current and past life really hits you in the face.

[00:05:02] I don't know if you got any thoughts about that, Jill.

[00:05:04] Yeah, no, it is.

[00:05:04] And I mean, you know, it is.

[00:05:06] And it actually was actually the case for an extent for myself anyway.

[00:05:10] I didn't change employer, but I had to get me

[00:05:13] all my stuff changed within the employer and provide an ID

[00:05:16] when particularly when you're as chaotic as I am in your new identity

[00:05:21] and getting birth certificate things like that that employers need.

[00:05:25] These days can be difficult and and for a good while after I transitioned,

[00:05:31] although I was treated, I was genuine, everything at work.

[00:05:35] The some records had me listed in

[00:05:39] on my old name, so he's to get payslip coming through with my old name on

[00:05:43] and like it, but it was my own failings to not get that sorted.

[00:05:46] And you're absolutely right for new job.

[00:05:48] I think that

[00:05:51] I don't know if things have proven that.

[00:05:53] I think if you're intending on if you're in a transition

[00:05:55] and you're attending on working in your and your new improved gender.

[00:05:59] Right. If you if that's

[00:06:01] if that's what you're intending on doing, then that's you.

[00:06:04] You want as much of your ID and stuff in that name as well.

[00:06:08] But also, I think there's a responsibility on the employer

[00:06:11] if you haven't got all that.

[00:06:12] So if you want some employment database in your old name,

[00:06:16] that still shouldn't be disclosed because you should be known at work

[00:06:20] as you wish to be known. Does that I think that makes sense?

[00:06:23] And that certainly in big employers, that could happen.

[00:06:25] So even though my manager knew that

[00:06:29] my electronic record had a different name on it for a while.

[00:06:33] Nobody else could say that it was it was.

[00:06:37] And even if your credit check and you go back three years

[00:06:39] and you've, you know, if you moved house,

[00:06:41] you're going to run into this issue of your name change.

[00:06:44] And look, I think I listen to a lot of people moaning

[00:06:47] and whinging about this. The fact is, it's just a fact.

[00:06:50] You just have to it's like a cis woman changing her surname

[00:06:54] after a marriage, for example.

[00:06:56] It is it's most organizations are set up actually to handle changes

[00:07:00] of name pretty well because it's not unusual for someone to change,

[00:07:04] particularly the surnames.

[00:07:06] And therefore, their forenames are OK as well.

[00:07:09] And you can often have situations, can't you, where you end up

[00:07:11] with your using your female or your male name,

[00:07:14] but with the with the pronoun being wrong.

[00:07:16] So you might have Mr.

[00:07:18] Betty Crocker, for example.

[00:07:20] And it's one of them.

[00:07:21] And I think what you have to do is when you're applying for jobs,

[00:07:24] you have to slightly get over that and make the process

[00:07:26] as easy for the recruitment firms as possible.

[00:07:29] I get that.

[00:07:30] I think you're right.

[00:07:31] You're absolutely right in terms of the mechanisms can be the same

[00:07:33] if anybody's changing details and names and getting those rights.

[00:07:37] I think the impact can be different.

[00:07:38] And I think the employer,

[00:07:40] if I was going to go for a new job, I'd want to make sure if

[00:07:44] I want to make sure that even though those records were sitting there,

[00:07:47] that that wasn't divulged to the wider workforce, there's no reason for it.

[00:07:50] So if my if my record copy of my birth certificate

[00:07:54] has my birth certificate hasn't changed.

[00:07:56] So if they ask me to provide that, it's got my old details on

[00:07:59] because I haven't changed it.

[00:08:00] I haven't done that piece of the act.

[00:08:02] But I'd want assurances that that's not going to be shared with anybody.

[00:08:05] It doesn't need to be shared with so that my gender history

[00:08:08] can be kept confidential.

[00:08:09] So there is something I think you can do around that.

[00:08:11] If you can't, if you're not in a position to to manage that.

[00:08:15] Now, one of the biggest one of the biggest things comes about

[00:08:18] when does one disclose that one is trans?

[00:08:21] So, for example, I'm applying for a couple of jobs at the moment

[00:08:23] because you should meet with a challenge a few weeks ago

[00:08:26] outside of these podcasts about looking for jobs.

[00:08:29] And I was applying for jobs and because of where I am in my change,

[00:08:34] I've got all sorts of complexity as other people have.

[00:08:37] And I've applied for jobs both as as a trans person

[00:08:40] and as a male person.

[00:08:43] And I've actually had more success with my trans applications.

[00:08:46] Now, to be fair, I have focused my trans applications in areas

[00:08:50] which are much more welcoming into trans places.

[00:08:54] So so that's something.

[00:08:55] So I've gone with my female name, because of course, that is my name.

[00:08:59] My all my details aren't finished yet.

[00:09:01] It's just faffing about the amount of hooch and the flippery involved

[00:09:05] with that is a nightmare.

[00:09:06] And so what I've wrestled with is when do I declare

[00:09:10] I'm transgender as part of the process?

[00:09:12] So what I've done is when someone's come back to me and said,

[00:09:15] yeah, we're interested in taking it further.

[00:09:16] At that point, I've said, I just need to let you know that I'm transgender

[00:09:20] and you need to be aware of this as far as the process is going.

[00:09:24] Because what I don't want to do is to go all the way through to the end

[00:09:27] and then figure out I didn't get the job because I was because I was trans.

[00:09:32] I'd rather be I'd rather be knocked out, screened out

[00:09:34] the process earlier on.

[00:09:36] Now, I think that's contentious.

[00:09:37] But I'd be interested to hear you.

[00:09:39] I mean, as far as I'm concerned, you don't have any duty to declare you trans.

[00:09:44] I mean, if there's an issue with your ID, I get that that might not add up.

[00:09:47] So you need to explain that.

[00:09:49] So I think if I was applying for a job, I wouldn't declare I'm trans.

[00:09:52] And I'm applying as a woman.

[00:09:54] Now, they might figure out trans as soon as they meet me.

[00:09:56] But that's that's that's not I don't need to do that.

[00:10:00] I don't need to declare that it's not something that you need to declare.

[00:10:03] So I think you're right in terms of navigating

[00:10:06] some of those issues around IDs and things.

[00:10:09] I I I it's just the idea of saying

[00:10:14] I'm trans is not something because it's a you should be

[00:10:17] protected from that gender history.

[00:10:18] The employer doesn't need to know unless it needs to know.

[00:10:21] I guess I think this comes back to and the thing is,

[00:10:24] it's possible in this conversation for us both to have completely different views.

[00:10:28] But both of us being right, because actually,

[00:10:31] I do think it depends where you are in the process.

[00:10:34] So you're thinking I think it does.

[00:10:36] Yeah. And I think this is the thing is now I think you have to be more

[00:10:39] cautious at the beginning.

[00:10:40] So, for example, if I was through

[00:10:44] all my deep polling and everything else that I had to do all the surgeries,

[00:10:47] blah, blah, blah, blah, I wouldn't think I wouldn't think twice.

[00:10:49] I wouldn't be thinking about myself as transgender in that way.

[00:10:52] I'm proudly transgendered at the moment, so I'm happy to say it.

[00:10:56] And I'm also one of things I'm there's the two things

[00:11:00] if the psychology of job hunting is quite interesting,

[00:11:02] because when you first start out, you're like a little tiny minnow

[00:11:06] at the end of an enormous hook with a giant fishing

[00:11:09] fisher person and a massive rod.

[00:11:11] And as the process goes on and the more you impress people

[00:11:14] during the process, what happens is you become a much bigger fish

[00:11:17] and the hook gets smaller and the and the person on the other end

[00:11:20] has less power to the point where they make you a job offer.

[00:11:23] And actually, some people argue that if you have to make declarations,

[00:11:26] that's the point where you should make them because you have the most power

[00:11:29] because they have less interest in losing you at that stage.

[00:11:32] So negotiating wise, you can decide where you want to do it.

[00:11:36] I'm much more upfront and I'm not quite as militant as some people.

[00:11:42] Sorry, militants, not the word I really mean there.

[00:11:44] But I prefer just to be honest, just because I'm a bit older.

[00:11:47] I said, you know, I'm transgendered.

[00:11:50] And I'm absolutely not saying that.

[00:11:53] I absolutely agree.

[00:11:54] And it is completely personal.

[00:11:56] There's no duty.

[00:11:57] So I don't know there's any duty on anybody who's part of our community

[00:12:01] to either declare or not declare.

[00:12:04] You know, I don't you know, you know, my my position is

[00:12:08] will be different in the sense of I'm aware that people know I'm trans

[00:12:12] if they meet me.

[00:12:12] So I don't think I need to mention it.

[00:12:14] It's obvious.

[00:12:16] And I'm not applying for that unless it's relevant to the job.

[00:12:19] I'm applying as a woman. Right.

[00:12:20] You know, that's how it's better.

[00:12:22] But I entirely understand that if I was in it and that may be because

[00:12:26] nearly 20 years post transition, right.

[00:12:29] The truth of the matter is, if I look back about when I transitioned,

[00:12:32] I was much more relaxed about things, about when people mischanged

[00:12:36] and, you know, things in the workplace.

[00:12:38] But then again, you know, and I did go around telling

[00:12:41] and thinking every day, saying, by the way, I'm I'm transitioning.

[00:12:44] And, you know, I didn't inform people myself.

[00:12:48] I think, you know, I'm coming from the privilege of having now transitioned

[00:12:51] and living, you know, I'm not having to go through that, navigate that.

[00:12:55] So maybe it's easier for me to say, well, I'm a woman,

[00:12:57] so I don't care what you think, which is a sort of

[00:13:00] what I may be coming across as.

[00:13:02] And I think I think that's that's fine for me, if I want to.

[00:13:07] But it's not for me to impose on anybody else.

[00:13:09] We haven't all got to be.

[00:13:11] Yeah. And I think and I think it's interesting, is it?

[00:13:12] Because we are at the extremes of the process,

[00:13:14] which is the point of the podcast, isn't it?

[00:13:16] And it's encouraging for me to hear that you have that view.

[00:13:20] And I know that I will aim towards that view because I much prefer to be there.

[00:13:24] And maybe I'm overly pragmatic about these things.

[00:13:27] I mean, clearly, my CV says this is who I am.

[00:13:30] I don't make any reference to things.

[00:13:32] I think it's I think it's mostly when I begin to engage

[00:13:35] with the organization and say, yes, you know, this is just so you're aware.

[00:13:39] Because frankly, if they're going to scream me out, scream me out then.

[00:13:42] And let's not waste everybody's time, because the worst thing in the world

[00:13:45] is you get to the final stage of the interview, the suddenly realize what,

[00:13:48] you know, your gender status.

[00:13:50] And then they're scrabbling around trying to think of excuses.

[00:13:53] I'd much rather not do that.

[00:13:55] So I think I'll see these on our applications.

[00:13:58] I would just say who you will put your name down with your transmask,

[00:14:01] a trans family doesn't matter.

[00:14:02] Just you or your name, put it through.

[00:14:05] And and you know what you're going to have to do is

[00:14:07] you're going to have to go on LinkedIn.

[00:14:08] You're going to go LinkedIn and whatever your profile is,

[00:14:10] your agencies, your preschool.

[00:14:12] And it's it's that point at which when you start to engage

[00:14:14] with the actual end user, that's the point where you have the choice to make.

[00:14:19] Now, there are some I hate this term passing,

[00:14:22] but there are some people who feel completely comfortable.

[00:14:25] They're early in the process and they can pass, especially on a zoom lens.

[00:14:29] I mean, I know I don't.

[00:14:30] You say you don't.

[00:14:31] But they go voices, you know, despite our training haven't worked so well.

[00:14:37] But I think there comes a point where it is better to have this conversation.

[00:14:42] So when someone says to me, have you got any questions for me?

[00:14:45] I would always ask, what are your approach?

[00:14:47] What is your attitude to trans people?

[00:14:49] How will you handle a trans person?

[00:14:51] What is your policy?

[00:14:52] What you know, what is it going to be like as a trans person working there?

[00:14:56] What level of support will I get?

[00:14:58] You know, to what extent will managers disregard my transgender status

[00:15:02] and just treat me as a normal person coming to do a job?

[00:15:06] I think I think we have the right to ask those questions if you want.

[00:15:10] I think so. I mean, I think you need to judge the employee you're applying for.

[00:15:14] So, for instance, in a public sector, you know, and then it's just

[00:15:16] I think I think when the short list, they take names off them

[00:15:20] because, you know, all the other biases around non-anglicised names

[00:15:23] and things like that.

[00:15:24] So in all, in essence, again, a short list and an interview

[00:15:30] you know, they may not be aware. Right.

[00:15:32] And I think you may imagine, I mean, you talked about

[00:15:36] going on LinkedIn and things and many people wouldn't use

[00:15:39] that as a route to employment.

[00:15:40] It depends on the level of job you're going out again.

[00:15:43] You know, they tend to be better paying jobs

[00:15:46] that you might get through and using those those mechanisms.

[00:15:49] But I think you need to I think there's an element of judging

[00:15:52] judging the employer.

[00:15:53] Certainly, think if you're looking at bigger public sector employers,

[00:15:56] I would hope and expect they would have good policies

[00:15:59] and good recruitment policies and inclusion and may even embrace

[00:16:03] having more diversity in their workforce.

[00:16:07] Smaller employers made that more difficult.

[00:16:09] I think you need to and this is the same with the job.

[00:16:11] You need to make that

[00:16:14] that distinction.

[00:16:15] I mean, you know, if if I work in the NHS,

[00:16:18] if I was going for a nursing job,

[00:16:20] you know, I would be nervous about how patients would accept me

[00:16:24] and those other challenges.

[00:16:25] So I might want to ask some questions about that.

[00:16:27] I mean, an employer will give a positive message back.

[00:16:31] But I can see plenty of jobs away.

[00:16:33] You might be really nervous about that.

[00:16:35] I think you need to make that.

[00:16:38] I think your advice is absolutely right.

[00:16:40] And if you do wish to declare it, then you should.

[00:16:43] If you don't, I don't think you need to.

[00:16:45] You certainly shouldn't be criticised for not for not declaring your gender

[00:16:48] history. But in doing that, you really probably haven't to have.

[00:16:52] You have to have transitioned, really, in all honesty.

[00:16:55] So if you're in a position where you might be more fluid and attending work,

[00:16:59] maybe expressing yourself differently.

[00:17:04] That would be different, I think.

[00:17:06] And I also think the issue is,

[00:17:09] is if you haven't transitioned, but you are intending to very soon

[00:17:13] I guess is what point do you tell an employer?

[00:17:16] I don't think you have any proportion to tell them before you get the job.

[00:17:20] You might want to do that, I guess, to say, by the way,

[00:17:23] you know, if you I'm going to be transitioning in the next month.

[00:17:25] So, you know, so when I you know, you might recruit me

[00:17:29] and I'll be turning up and be different.

[00:17:31] I think it's a matter of judging the sort of employer.

[00:17:35] And I think and I think that's what interesting to see,

[00:17:37] because you started the conversation by saying it's hard to get jobs at the moment.

[00:17:40] But actually, it's pretty full employment at the moment.

[00:17:44] And I think it's although there's a tiny bit of environment.

[00:17:47] Yeah. But these are the times when it's easiest to get jobs.

[00:17:50] And if you go to a recruitment agency and you look for driving jobs,

[00:17:54] like hair jobs or hair jobs or the place

[00:17:58] for transgender people without skills to go, because all care

[00:18:01] organizations are really desperate to recruit.

[00:18:04] The challenge is just what you said with the NHS

[00:18:06] and the nurse's job is how is how the patients or the clients would react.

[00:18:10] I agree. That's the same in care jobs.

[00:18:12] But you're right in terms of there is more there is less

[00:18:16] numbers of employment, but there are less, you know, the jobs

[00:18:19] are becoming more part time and more gig economy type jobs.

[00:18:23] So, yes, you know, quality jobs are more hard to get.

[00:18:27] If we want to use that term quality, there's more insecurity,

[00:18:31] you know, and yes, you can get jobs.

[00:18:34] But those are many, you know, often very minimal.

[00:18:37] I represent people in the care in care homes and things.

[00:18:39] There's a minimum wage jobs and there's a pretty tough jobs.

[00:18:42] Tough jobs.

[00:18:42] And the thing is, if there is a there is something about.

[00:18:49] I've got to be careful to say, because I don't want to come across

[00:18:51] as being so preachy on this, but that the the the statistics

[00:18:56] around mental well-being and being at work are massive.

[00:19:00] It's such a positive correlation.

[00:19:02] I know a lot of people have burnout, such like when they're at work as well.

[00:19:04] But but actually it's much healthier for you to be at work

[00:19:07] than it is not to be at work.

[00:19:09] That structure, that routine, that that social influence,

[00:19:12] social glue that goes along.

[00:19:14] And I think one of the one of the things you have to be

[00:19:16] and I mean, people can bring beyond reflections

[00:19:18] and talk about their own situation and where, you know,

[00:19:21] the actual situation in front of them and the sort of practical help

[00:19:25] that they may need.

[00:19:26] But I was always say personally, I would always be fronting this out

[00:19:31] and saying, you know, because I'm proudly trans because I'm not

[00:19:35] pretending to be something I'm not.

[00:19:37] And I would go, I mean, I'd go further, I think, for trans people particularly.

[00:19:43] So in terms of gender when you're trans,

[00:19:46] it's all about how you relate to society, society relates to you.

[00:19:49] And the work is such a big part of that.

[00:19:52] So, you know, yes, I'm I'm a woman, but I really only I don't

[00:19:56] when I'm on my own in the house, I barely express it

[00:20:00] because I can't remember to put makeup on and, you know,

[00:20:02] I mean, I slouch around work, you know,

[00:20:05] I'm certainly that was the best part of transitioning was being able to attend

[00:20:09] work, being accepted at work as a woman member of staff with my colleagues.

[00:20:14] And that was so important to my transition because that helped validate me,

[00:20:18] you know, which is what I needed that, you know,

[00:20:21] I am accepted in this part of the world and work is in a huge part of that.

[00:20:25] So I think if you can, you know, if you can stay in your job

[00:20:29] and transition in your job or get a job when you're transitioning, it is so.

[00:20:35] Amazing, you know, it was the best part of my transition

[00:20:38] was being able to be accepted at work.

[00:20:40] I was already living my life outside of work.

[00:20:43] And I think I think the thing about the interview process,

[00:20:45] a lot of people agonize because they're not used to being socially

[00:20:47] constructed and such that I noticed on LinkedIn there was an article today

[00:20:51] saying that a senior exec had been denied a job

[00:20:55] because she'd gone through the interview process and hadn't worn makeup.

[00:20:59] And I think one of the things you is is this idea of how we fit in socially.

[00:21:03] You know, what do you want for interviews and such like?

[00:21:05] And I would always say you have to look at the organization and decide.

[00:21:08] So it's a bit like, you know, in my previous life,

[00:21:12] I used to go where I used to maybe in a day as a consultant,

[00:21:16] I used to have to go and see a merchant bank in the morning,

[00:21:19] a media company afternoon and then maybe meet

[00:21:23] a client in the evening to do some work with.

[00:21:25] It's like, what do you wear?

[00:21:27] And that and the same thing presents itself, whichever way you go,

[00:21:31] you're always going to have this struggle about how you fit in.

[00:21:34] And I think there's a difference between who you are and what you want

[00:21:37] to wear for yourself and actually fitting into and conforming

[00:21:40] to the work and work norms.

[00:21:42] And, you know, if you want to dress like a, I don't know.

[00:21:46] Well, you know, something in a really, really short skirt,

[00:21:49] dance around in an eight inch platform heels and you want to go

[00:21:51] for a job as a as a merchant banker.

[00:21:54] I mean, that's not it's not going to flush particularly well.

[00:21:56] So I think you have to you have to build.

[00:21:59] I always think it's fascinating watching people of my age

[00:22:03] in both genders and saying what they wear, a the degree to which

[00:22:06] the norms have changed, but be the degree to which is sort of acceptable

[00:22:11] and how you sort of fit in.

[00:22:14] Now, human beings sort of have a need to fit in.

[00:22:17] So it's sometimes sensible to go to a workshop.

[00:22:20] If you're going to work for the P.R. agency, I mean, where what you are,

[00:22:23] you know, green air, you know, dance around and whatever you want,

[00:22:27] because it's a different world.

[00:22:28] But I think where we have, you know, where we can have a disadvantage

[00:22:33] is when we're transitioning is we haven't had that chance growing up.

[00:22:37] There's a transition later of learning what looks

[00:22:41] suits us and learning those climate, loads of mistakes.

[00:22:44] So that that's an extra challenge where people do learn

[00:22:47] those social norms about how how what works.

[00:22:50] I mean, you can see you can you can generally gauge what what's appropriate.

[00:22:54] I mean, we have a dress code at work that is de-gendered.

[00:22:58] So you can wear, you know, you don't have to be trans or not.

[00:23:01] You know, as a as a as a cisgender man, you could wear a skirt

[00:23:05] and whatever our policy doesn't define that.

[00:23:09] All it says is we have to adhere to the codes, which is,

[00:23:12] you know, you have to look respect to us.

[00:23:14] We have a dress code sort of thing like most employers do.

[00:23:18] So but it's not gendered.

[00:23:19] You know, you as long as your clothes fit in with those norms,

[00:23:24] so because we do have a policy that allows people to be gender fluid,

[00:23:26] for instance, particularly in corporate roles, if they want to attend,

[00:23:29] as long as they're attending in in in what is appropriate.

[00:23:33] So, you know, you know,

[00:23:36] I think the code says that you would wear jeans to work right.

[00:23:39] So, you know, in in in the NHS in roles,

[00:23:43] I think the policy says that I can't remember the detail or dress.

[00:23:47] You'd expect to wear sort of those clothes.

[00:23:49] And I think that's the issue, whether whatever what the gender

[00:23:51] of your clothes is is less important than, you know, that you're adhering

[00:23:55] to those standards if there are standards.

[00:23:58] But but but it's and people forget this.

[00:24:01] And there's a there's a load of there's a tonne of research

[00:24:03] that supports this, that what you wear can generate confidence in yourself.

[00:24:07] So, you know, if you take your normal level of daywear

[00:24:11] and you just, you know, tweak it by five percent and be slightly more formal,

[00:24:14] you do feel better.

[00:24:16] And there's a huge amount of this that, you know,

[00:24:19] how you dress does affect your esteem.

[00:24:21] Does affect your confidence.

[00:24:23] And it's in that there are people who have interview clothes on there.

[00:24:27] And, you know, I remember somebody

[00:24:30] and you used to have a very bright red like blazer

[00:24:33] and used to wear that for interviews because it used to make it.

[00:24:35] It was like a statement piece.

[00:24:36] They used to go through and do their interviews and such like.

[00:24:38] And it was a person who was the least red blazer person

[00:24:41] he would ever meet in your life.

[00:24:42] You know, so she was selling herself as a as a false entity

[00:24:46] in the interview because she wasn't that person in real life.

[00:24:48] It was quite strange.

[00:24:50] So it's about being yourself, but being yourself at the best level of yourself.

[00:24:54] So you can feel really great.

[00:24:55] So if you're on Zoom, I mean, if you're on, I mean, someone once said to me,

[00:24:59] if you're on Zoom and you have an interview,

[00:25:01] make sure you dress from head to foot, even if the even if the temptation

[00:25:06] is to be, you know, in your way.

[00:25:08] Well, I'm not going to be interested in it.

[00:25:12] It is true.

[00:25:13] I don't know. We've got onto the other things.

[00:25:14] And when we all when we all went home and started the pandemic,

[00:25:18] those in corporate roles in the NHS and we all started working on on team straight away.

[00:25:23] I mean, I was I literally would make sure I put my work clothes on.

[00:25:28] I'd even put my lanyard on me.

[00:25:29] I felt like I felt like it was being sort of this is my workday now.

[00:25:33] These are my work clothes. Yeah.

[00:25:35] I pretty soon discovered nobody else was bothering.

[00:25:37] And then you can see now that we're doing a lot of work.

[00:25:41] And actually, you know, people men aren't wearing certain ties

[00:25:46] that we would have in the workplace.

[00:25:48] But I think that's just the way things have moved on. Right.

[00:25:50] But if they actually go into the workplace, it will.

[00:25:53] People will dress up more smartly, but generally.

[00:25:56] Yeah. So I did that.

[00:25:58] And I used to think, well, you still take that.

[00:26:00] I remember going to a board meeting and think I put my proper work,

[00:26:04] smarter work clothes, I think I put a suit on in a skirt, whatever.

[00:26:08] And the rest of the board weren't some of the wearings

[00:26:10] sort of more more casual sort of clothes.

[00:26:12] And I thought

[00:26:14] I was sort of thinking we should try to take this seriously.

[00:26:17] So when I was in college, I was a very smart person,

[00:26:20] but I would wear a dress, which I wasn't aware of.

[00:26:22] I think I had previously visited previously,

[00:26:25] but actually that's just not human nature.

[00:26:27] Yeah. But now, sorry, I'm slightly adrifted.

[00:26:30] But that bit about feeling fitting in is a great feeling.

[00:26:33] I mean, I know when I first felt like a fitted in

[00:26:36] like a dress, like my fellow women colleagues, you know,

[00:26:39] I remember first time wearing it,

[00:26:41] which I wouldn't have worn as a trans person out of work,

[00:26:44] a ballon. So there is something when you're early transitioning that just makes you feel

[00:26:51] so much more confident. The other tip that someone told me and I've always done because normally

[00:26:56] I am as you know but I'm sitting down today but whenever you do a job interview always do it

[00:26:59] standing up so make sure you can elevate your computer if you're on a team's call because it

[00:27:03] gives you a lot more status and authority to stand up, gives you a lot more confidence. Well

[00:27:07] it's lengthening your diaphragm and your voice box and such like and you're much less likely

[00:27:12] to crouch over a screen. So I mean simple things like that just things about just generating

[00:27:17] confidence are really important. I would always say if you can afford, that's where I think

[00:27:21] people make mistakes and you're going for jobs because lots of jobs are interviewed online now,

[00:27:26] it's get a good webcam, get a good microphone, get a good setup because it's worth if you can

[00:27:33] afford it it's worth the investment to make sure that you can make the best of yourself

[00:27:38] just as you would try to look your best if you're doing a physical.

[00:27:42] And if you happen to rock up for a job interview with an recruitment agency and you have to go

[00:27:47] there then you just go there and be yourself but if you have to rock up to an employer like if

[00:27:51] you're going to a manufacturing company that wants someone to be a you know someone on

[00:27:54] working on a line off, you want to be a driver or something again go dressed up,

[00:27:58] cool there's no point going in your party frock if you're going to get a job as a

[00:28:02] driver you know you want to dress appropriately don't you but it's cool but it sounds like really

[00:28:08] simple common sense but the trouble is simple common sense it's only common sense if you

[00:28:11] know already and I think a lot of people I mean I get you know I get stressed out still to

[00:28:17] this day if I'm like going in a place and I don't know who's there and I don't know what

[00:28:21] to wear. And what I've discovered is much easier for women is that you can wear like a

[00:28:27] simple like I'm wearing I've got a card you know and it takes three seconds to make your

[00:28:31] card look smart. You can do as women we do that and because I haven't asked that you know when

[00:28:36] we've been to I don't events or conferences things is so we say you know what you're

[00:28:41] wearing is it you know is it skirt or dress or okay in trousers whatever you know what's

[00:28:45] the vibe so you we do ask each other that we do do that and you know if you go into more

[00:28:50] you know so I think we naturally as women do that and talk to each other about if we're

[00:28:57] not sure because we do want to you know get the proper sort of what's expected dress

[00:29:04] because you have got more up you know for men it's a lot simpler but you've got more options

[00:29:08] right you know is it you know in terms of how smart or how fancy you look or not you know

[00:29:14] you don't want to over dress neither do you want to under dress if you see anything.

[00:29:18] I think one of the things that you it's possible now I mean there are all sorts of laws about what

[00:29:24] you can and can't ask in interviews but actually pretty well anyone can ask whatever they want

[00:29:28] in a certain way as long as you ask it in a fairly way a fairly sensible way. You can't ask

[00:29:33] someone's pregnancy or things like that because that's not the case but it may well be

[00:29:37] relevant if someone does ask you what accommodations may need to be made at work for you

[00:29:41] or it may well be that you're clear what accommodations might need to be made for you

[00:29:45] so things like you know the old the bathroom debate you know you might need to say things like

[00:29:51] you know my accommodation was I'd like to use the loo in my you know my my my current agenda.

[00:29:58] Fair enough I mean I still find that difficult because I shouldn't have to tell anybody what

[00:30:06] I want to use. This is where you are in your transition. I get that but if you are

[00:30:13] attending work and having transition then you know the law says you can you should lose it

[00:30:18] so you know I get that and it might be with certain employers but you're giving them the

[00:30:24] chance to say oh no we're awkward about that and that should not be the case. It should be

[00:30:27] a given. I'd rather you see this is where you and I are different you see because I

[00:30:32] wouldn't willingly go and work in a place that was non-transgender welcoming and I have

[00:30:38] a fight on my hands and then lose my job in a month's time because actually they weren't.

[00:30:42] I think part and I think part of what's happening here is we need to know that the organization

[00:30:48] we're going in is going to accept us as we are so I would ask questions like that and see what

[00:30:52] they say. I would expect to be asked what accommodations need to be made for me so it's

[00:30:57] not an unreasonable question I think for someone to say will you need a lot of time off for

[00:31:02] treatment. Now you yeah I don't think that's a terrible question to ask and actually I'd

[00:31:08] rather someone ask me because I'd be able to say no I don't so if someone has an idea in their head

[00:31:14] and they're so the thing is people ask you questions based on the objections that might have

[00:31:19] so what you're doing is by hearing those questions you're flushing out the objections

[00:31:22] so I'd much rather deal with those. I get your point that you'd want to know but it would worry

[00:31:27] me about an employer if they asked me things like that when I was going to job it would it

[00:31:31] would me I would go was this employer that really has any understanding of their responsibilities

[00:31:37] and the equality act and everything else if they're raising the issue of if an employer

[00:31:41] raised the issue of what bathroom I've used with me I would be horrified. That'd be the reverse

[00:31:46] I'd welcome it I think fantastic. It might be my privilege but if I think about when I

[00:31:54] transitioned and it was some time ago so there wasn't a law there would have been plenty

[00:31:59] or hundreds of occasions I would have been in different employers premises

[00:32:02] and you know I would be because that's my job I was in a lot of the place

[00:32:06] I never once give it any second thought that I would use the ladies and I wouldn't have

[00:32:13] asked permission it either but one of the things that's really fascinating about when

[00:32:17] you get into an organization you go for an interview yeah as you walk through the front door

[00:32:21] you've already bumped into the receptionist you've engaged the reactionary receptionist

[00:32:26] and you're probably going to say do you mind if I use the loo and you're going to use the

[00:32:29] loo which you think is appropriate and when and then when you so what you're doing is you're

[00:32:33] checking out the difference between the reality and the and the and the story that's being told

[00:32:38] so because I think what you're doing in a job interview is you're sussing them out and

[00:32:42] figuring out if you want to work there just remember what Lovers I Hate Us were a bunch

[00:32:47] of people with skills talents and capabilities so in an organization if they've got a vacancy

[00:32:53] needs those skills talents and talents and capabilities so it's a it's a negotiation

[00:32:58] between how that thing comes together and I think sometimes we see ourselves as the minnow

[00:33:03] on the end of a big hook and don't realize that as the process goes on once you're at interview

[00:33:07] you have a lot more power in the process because they've already started to commit to you

[00:33:11] it's like having a relationship you're on a second date when you've got to interview stage

[00:33:15] yeah you know third and world knows what happens at third date yeah I mean as I say

[00:33:20] and in a sense I'm coming from my privilege and biases working for a big public sector

[00:33:25] organization welcoming me as a trans person as somebody who trans you know the world was an

[00:33:32] easier place as well in 2005 nobody genuinely cared much I was I was asked once when I went

[00:33:38] to a conference I was once within my union I was going to a conference and I said to them

[00:33:42] by the way I hadn't transitioned then and it was the first time I was going to sort of appear

[00:33:46] in a work setting as Jenny and they I was asked what toilet are you going to use and

[00:33:51] I was a bit of I said I'm going to use the women's toilets I'm trans I'm sensitive woman

[00:33:55] I'm starting my transition and the colleague went oh okay that's the only time I've been asked

[00:34:01] in all my career really but I think 2005 was a simpler time I think yeah and I also

[00:34:07] freely accept that because I'm a bit older and a bit more how can I say I'm at one stage

[00:34:16] more susceptible and more worried about another stage much more bullish and much less scared so

[00:34:22] you know I'm quite prepared to have it out with people but actually if you don't want to work

[00:34:26] with someone I'll just tell them I don't want to work with you you can you know you can stick

[00:34:30] your job sort of thing yes because actually if you don't accept me I don't care I don't

[00:34:34] want to work here so you know and if I've got the skills and talents you need and if

[00:34:38] you do want them there I'll take them to your loss yeah and I think that and it doesn't

[00:34:42] matter which which line of work you're in from care to drive and the fruit pack into whatever it

[00:34:46] might be the old days of oh we need to we can treat this person like a commodity on your

[00:34:52] boat on your bike because there's another 50,000 behind you those days are over now

[00:34:56] and actually organizations are having to be a bit smarter I tell you what I am actually

[00:35:00] fascinated to apply for a job in the national health service and I did see a job in your

[00:35:06] trust quite recently and for a laugh I don't think I should definitely I was going to apply

[00:35:13] yeah can you imagine if I was an interview panel Jill I'd have to declare an interest I guess

[00:35:18] but you know I would have to declare an interest I have to declare the fact that I'm a

[00:35:23] trustee of charity to my employer but we'd start the interview and I'd be saying hello

[00:35:29] and welcome oh I would I would be asking you I would be yeah I'd be asking you the most

[00:35:34] I'd be horrible to you Jill we don't want to do that I'd be trying to trick you that's good

[00:35:39] I'd enjoy it no I wouldn't I wouldn't but yes it's um yes I think we come from very different

[00:35:44] perspectives both in where we are in our position I guess and also that the realms we work with

[00:35:49] you work in a very different area than I I've been so privileged just to work for the public

[00:35:54] sector for so long so I've never known anything else apart from driving an ice cream

[00:35:58] van for three weeks but I mean yeah that's the only work we've done and I and I do think

[00:36:03] a bit like in the states a lot of people apply to work for Starbucks because they pay for transition

[00:36:06] over there and which is amazing isn't it and but in here in this country there are jobs you can

[00:36:12] apply for in certain types of organizations are a lot more accepting now if you don't have a

[00:36:16] skill set if you're the if you used to be an engineer at a nuclear power plant and you've

[00:36:21] lost your job you know like any person in the world you're going to have to go through

[00:36:26] some sort of retraining and repurposing and recalibrating and all that might might be

[00:36:31] and it doesn't matter whether you used to work in a shop or in a restaurant whatever it is the

[00:36:35] thing is people with those sorts of skills are much more in demand if you remember I talked to

[00:36:39] you many many podcasts ago about working with a restaurant and they said they had

[00:36:44] um a transgender person working in their team and they were absolutely fantastic

[00:36:48] and they were the best person the problem we had was some of the customers

[00:36:52] and and that's the nature of life French people are better than cis people on every on

[00:36:57] any measurable level objectively but no joking aside you know you know we're navigating transition

[00:37:04] and doing that and having the bravery to be authentic you know when that can be difficult

[00:37:10] these are all things that employers should or to really grasp because it is it's a skill

[00:37:17] set in a weird way you know you learn a lot about life when you transition and it's

[00:37:20] resilience yeah when people talk about resilience and you meet the majority of trans people who've

[00:37:25] hit rock bottom and come back and the bounce forward because the bouncing forward in a way

[00:37:30] that's much more coherent with who they really are um you know it's it's and all I can say if

[00:37:37] there's any employers listening the opportunity to hire a trans person is is immense and and

[00:37:43] I know my friend of mine was recruiting in the northeast and in IT so needless to say

[00:37:48] there's quite a lot of trans people in IT because of the various bits and bobs of it

[00:37:52] and um and and he had three people applying and he wanted to hire the trans person

[00:37:57] I was saying I was desperate to hire that trans person any three of them could do the job but I

[00:38:01] wanted I wanted to positively discriminate yeah the trans person and he turned around the

[00:38:05] trans person said no because he got better off around the corner and that's the point

[00:38:09] we sometimes think because we're trans we're not worthy we have to be proud

[00:38:13] I think we have to be proud of who we are in our process

[00:38:17] I agree it's really it's trickier when you're even further behind me and your non-binary and

[00:38:22] your and you're really wrestling with things and you make a really good point about the

[00:38:27] lack of understanding for people with non-binary identities there's a real still deep lack of

[00:38:32] really um taking that seriously understanding that and I think there's a real challenge

[00:38:36] that we haven't talked about for people in who are non-binary and navigating that I mean

[00:38:41] you know I uh that is maybe for another podcast because I think we maybe get

[00:38:46] some who is non-binary to talk about that but I think I think you're right on that

[00:38:50] but that's still a positive note to end on I would have thought it is I think we've had a

[00:38:55] very positive um podcast and uh so I have a couple of job interviews to go to and um

[00:39:01] I mean one's a voluntary role so I mean you know goodness sake still there's a couple

[00:39:08] there's a couple who are there's a couple who are um who are non and uh one's a couple

[00:39:13] of entering contracts should I do like an interim contract and we'll see we'll see

[00:39:17] where it takes us and um indeed to um to mangle yosa hughes gives it gives it a job

[00:39:25] yeah is it job you see but the thing is what's really interesting for me is the reason

[00:39:29] I'm having to do all this I don't know if you realize this the reason I'm to do this is

[00:39:33] up until last year I used to work a lot on the African nation yeah and I used to work a lot with

[00:39:38] African politicians and used to do training leadership development all that sort of stuff

[00:39:42] and I declared back in whenever it was that I wouldn't go to I can't remember which country

[00:39:47] it was because they have the new legislation is anti-trans and what they're saying is if you

[00:39:52] go over there and you're even gay if you just if you're lesbian or bisexual I think it

[00:39:57] was Uganda it was I'm Uganda Rakenya and I said I wouldn't go and then every single bit

[00:40:02] of work dried up every single bit overnight wow and that was like 100 to 150 days working

[00:40:08] a year and that's why I'm suddenly having to do this because you have to recognize and it's

[00:40:13] their rights their country they can admit I mean am I not approve of it I might not like

[00:40:17] it but it's their country to do what they want and what they say is they don't want

[00:40:20] people like me going in the fact is if I wasn't dressed like me and I wasn't me and as

[00:40:25] I used to be they would be very very happy to have me and be paying me large sums of money

[00:40:30] the fact I've got a transgender tag against my name now is I've become a non-person

[00:40:36] that is it's definitely their loss and let's hope that does start to change that narrative

[00:40:42] I'm still hopeful it will but it will take some time it will take some time every pendulum

[00:40:47] swings its own swing yeah that's a famous quote from someone I think I'm going to say

[00:40:53] it's from me yes it's quite meaningless isn't it's like them's your onions which

[00:40:57] is my other favorite place yeah well I shall see you next next time and look forward to it

[00:41:03] I mean I think we've done I mean we've had a sensible podcast there's been no mention of

[00:41:07] Star Trek oops there's been no mention of the comic-con really pulled out much yet

[00:41:12] no stop let's stop this we're gonna have to find something else to disagree on

[00:41:18] week and I'm not going to mention that subject so I shall see you next time

[00:41:21] you take care thanks everyone bye

[00:41:28] thanks for listening to this episode of TransVox it's been a joy to have you with us

[00:41:34] if you want to make contact with us you can contact us at Gillian at transvox.co.uk

[00:41:42] and if you'd like to support the work we do please go to Patreon and go to the page TransVox

[00:41:47] and all of our money goes to our nominated charity and Jen you've chosen the charity

[00:41:52] for the next number of episodes which one have you chosen our charity is called Beyond

[00:41:57] Reflections which is a charity that provides support and counseling to trans people non-binary

[00:42:03] people and their friends and their families across the UK an amazing charity doing some

[00:42:08] amazing work really important so please if you can give great and if you want to go and

[00:42:13] have a look at Beyond Reflections it's beyond-reflections.org.uk and but as I say

[00:42:19] if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing because we love to help the people

[00:42:22] who help us again if you've got ideas for the show things you'd like to ask us questions

[00:42:28] comments applause or brick baths feel free to send it all in to Gillian at transvox.co.uk

[00:42:36] until the next time goodbye bye

[00:42:43] you