Transvox - Exploring Trans Rights Across Europe

[00:00:06] Hello and welcome to Transvox and welcome to my erstwhile colleague Jenny Harvey, who's sitting across me with Brandon again in her very exciting pointy rainbow hat with a red tassel on the end. You look very fetching. It's good, but we're near the end of LGBT plus history month, so I thought I'd mark it with that.

[00:00:29] Actually, you said to me on another episode, in a sort of really interesting way, you said to me, do we pay enough attention to other people in the world and our American sisters and brothers and such? And actually what was interesting is we very rarely talk about Europe. And I know we sometimes recognize we're actually on the edge of the European continent, much, much closer geographically to Europe than we are to America.

[00:00:53] We talk a heck of a lot about America. So perhaps it's time to talk about our European cousins just over the English Channel and the North Sea and places like that. Let's talk all things trans in Europe. And I know you've been doing extensive research on this, Jenny, to be able to entertain, inform and delight our listener. And let's see what you've come up with. That's the very definition of landing me in it to say I've done extensive research.

[00:01:22] Let's start, Jenny. If we were going to leave the UK for whatever reason, where do we think we'd head to have some of the best trans experiences, the most inclusive places? I'm guessing I know the answer to this, but I'd be fascinated to see if you've got anything different to say. So if you're looking at what's the best place in terms of trans rights, which might not be the same as in terms of everyday experience within communities, because it's not always about the law.

[00:01:49] I think some of the Scandinavia, I think Norway, Iceland. Yeah. Spain seems to me to have some progressive laws and Portugal certainly are in a better position than maybe the UK, certainly. So I think those would be my first. If you're looking at places that it's the best place to be for trans person in terms of legal rights, et cetera. Would that be a good starting point? What would you think?

[00:02:16] It's interesting. I was doing some extensive research myself on this, which is basically asking Chachi BT. And the two highest places to go are quite specific. One's Malta and the other is Iceland. Yeah. And that's because it's not just the progressive legislation, but access to healthcare and the strong legal protections in Iceland. And I don't know if you've been to Iceland. I have. They've got something called the Blue Lagoon and it is absolutely fantastic place. So what a place to be trans.

[00:02:45] Other places, like you said, Spain, Portugal, and then the sort of Benelux countries, not so much the Netherlands anymore, but... Is that right? Because Netherlands led so much of this, didn't they? I think they've got quite a right wing government at the moment. They used to be extraordinarily progressive nonetheless, but I think less so now. But Denmark's a great place to be trans. And of course, you could also be joining up to fight the Americans soon in Greenland. So that would be a great place to go.

[00:03:14] Yes. No, that's really interesting. Yeah. I'd heard Malta got really progressive rules around this. I think it's interesting because I don't know if I'm right. Is Malta quite a religious island? Am I right in that? I've never been to Malta. I think there's a lot of people there who are quite into telling jokes and such because they're Maltesers. Oh, for God's sake. I think you've only wanted to do this podcast for the purpose of telling that joke.

[00:03:42] I genuinely believe that, Jill. But it is true that you've completely thrown me off there. It's definitely... It is interesting though that a small island like that has been so progressive. I can't stop thinking about Maltesers now. You've just made me hungry, which is the worst. But... Yeah. Yeah. There's something I read here. It says, you mentioned Iceland and Malta are the only countries to have depathologized trans identities.

[00:04:12] You want to run at that word again? Depathologized. There, I got it right a second time. I think they've, in a sense, they've got healthcare, but they've taken out any of the idea that it's a pathological medical condition and just accepted people identifying as and their identities. So those are the two countries. I think Iceland is really interesting. You said you've been to Iceland. I have, yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. Very volcanic. Yes. Yes, it is.

[00:04:42] I remember the Cod Wars. Do you remember the Cod Wars? I do. I don't know why I actually thought of the Cod Wars. Yeah. That'll age us as well. That's late 70s, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. But it is really interesting. There's other countries where they've, as I say, I think Norway is quite good. I'm particularly aware of Spain and Portugal have recently improved rights. So it is good to see some countries doing better, but you're also seeing other countries becoming worse, haven't you?

[00:05:09] You're also seeing some pushback, I think, which is, you know, what is scary. I was going to, yeah. I was very surprised to see. It's interesting. I remember someone telling me about this, that often having very strong trans rights is a sign of pushing against a different regime. And there's a list published on the 18th of January this year. And I see Croatia is very strong, which is interesting because they're next to Serbia, who are very anti-trans.

[00:05:32] And apparently Taiwan is, I don't know, that's not Europe, but they're massively supportive of trans people because of the issue of China. But it's interesting on this list, which has all of Europe, but talk about Switzerland as well being great and Germany, France. And the UK is number 15. Now, it's probably 10, 15 years ago, then we probably would have been really up the top there. So it's quite, there's lots of places we can go from the UK as well. I think Denmark sounds great, especially if you know how to cycle.

[00:06:01] I know how to cycle, whether I've physically fit enough to do it. But yeah, it is interesting. I think around about 2015, there was an organisation called ILGA, the International Lesbian and Gay Association, although they are clan trans inclusive, and they ranked European countries. And the UK was ranked first for overall LGBTQ plus rights in 2015. And I think you're right, we're now 15th or even lower.

[00:06:25] And then in their report, they've said the reason for that in the main is failure to progress trans rights and transphobia in the media. So the reputation of this country of being a progressive nation, which we've always thought to be, I think, I hope we should be. We are slipping well down that list now. In other countries. But it is really fluid in flux, isn't it? You're seeing a push and pull on legislation and rights and things.

[00:06:51] Germany have recently taken a step forward in a form of self-ID, self-determination. But other countries are pulling back on that, it seems. I think it depends on where you are on the political spectrum. What's interesting about Portugal, you mentioned there, 18 year olds can get a legal gender ID change with no requirements. But 16 year olds need a psych evaluation parental consent. So that's 18 year olds are up. That's proper self-ID. And that's treatment as well.

[00:07:18] You get worker protections, constitutional protections, prosecute hate crimes. It shows 0.2% trans murders per million people. Point, sorry, not 2%, 0.2% trans murders per million people. Look, think about what's going on in the States. I think it'll be somewhat higher than that. That I think is great. Obviously, Sweden is one of those people, one of those organizations. But again, Sweden is swinging a little further to the right at the moment.

[00:07:44] But I'd still think even swinging a little bit further to the right would probably still be more progressive than lots of other places in Europe. It's interesting, though, about the politics of this, that it tends to be countries that are moving to the right for probably, for instance, for Brexit reasons or whatever reasons. And why that should correlate in any way with trans rights. In many ways, it seems odd.

[00:08:09] I think, you know, different countries, outside of Europe, I always remember reading that Iran, for instance, had horrible anti-homosexuality, anti-gay laws, but was quite inclusive of trans people and recognized people could change gender. So there is a lot of dissonance with some countries' approach. I think it seems to be Europe is generally coming together on a degree of legal protections for trans people. The western part of Europe is Scandinavia. The western part of Europe is Scandinavia.

[00:08:39] But you are having these pockets, yeah. And I think it's the point, at places like Switzerland, and such like Greece, you can change your gender identity without surgery. So that's the deep path that lies that word you said earlier. It's not linked to surgery. And actually, what you also see in some of these countries, there's no trans murders. And I think that's quite interesting in itself, because that indicates something in the general population where people are not being specifically. And oddly enough on this list, Spain is probably at the same sort of level as us.

[00:09:09] Now, Spain is ahead of us, I think it's got self-ID. This is 14 on this list. This globalist is Spain's 14 and we're 15. Oh, is there right? So they're not much ahead of us. I do know they've got... I think it collates a lot of things. I'm probably focusing on things like legal self-ID, which is only one aspect. The other aspects are how much hate speech is out there, how much discrimination day to day in the street is out there.

[00:09:34] So I think I can sometimes get a bit blinded by the legal parts of it, maybe. So you could certainly say that we haven't progressed our laws, but whether there's... I don't know. The murder... I think in terms of if you're talking about violence, it depends if you're collating statistics and what those statistics are. If you don't collect data whether that somebody has been murdered is trans or not, then how are you going to know? So I think that can... I think that...

[00:10:01] It does show something in terms of level of violence and hate speech, but yeah, it does sound like there are better places in Europe to run to. Where would you go, Jill? Where would you go to Iceland then? You're used to the cold weather, so that would be all right for you. Yeah, for me it would be quite nice. No, I like the heat. Portugal's nice. I used to live in Spain because I used to have a place out there. Oh, wow. And I'm absolutely fluent in the language. I can say at least three things in Spanish. Italy I'd love to go to, but sadly Italy's not on this list because of course they've got a right-wing government now.

[00:10:31] I think I'd go... Yeah, I like the Nordic countries because I just think the rest of life is well looked after. I've worked in Oslo and some of the other Baltic countries and it's fascinating working next to a very different culture. Obviously, it's very high tax, but you get huge amounts of services, but the services tend to work. It's... Do you know what? I think it's a lot about your own personal choice about where you want to go. Interesting on this particular list, number three in the world is Canada. And I've got some good friends that live in Canada.

[00:10:59] And I think Canada is a fantastic country. But where would you go? Oh, I don't know. I'm not a brave traveller, but in a broad half a dozen times. I would tend to want to go to... For many reasons. I think the Scandinavian way of life, the happiness index, their general socialised, as Americans call it, free healthcare and countries. That would always attract me. And if they have also got rights, I would feel protected. I think it's more about where I wouldn't want to go at the moment, where you would feel vulnerable.

[00:11:29] And you're right, it's sad that Italy seems to be going in that opposite direction to a lot of Europe. And of course, you go to Russia and it's downright a dangerous place to be a trans person in many ways. Not that I was intending on going to Russia. But yeah, weirdly, I think there are parts of the US that would be not unattractive. California and states that are welcoming and have some strong laws. But in Europe, I think it's... I think there's probably other considerations.

[00:11:58] But I have heard anecdotally of people leaving the UK, particularly I've heard of families with young trans people because they can get healthcare in other countries. Especially kids. And we can't get healthcare in the countries. And I can absolutely understand that. If I've got a child and they needed some help and support and they can't get in this country, you might go abroad. But yeah, I think it's a... I think one thing that sort of worries me in this sort of the flux of these trans rights, because I know it's...

[00:12:23] I know what's happened in this country has influenced other countries' politics on this matter. So for instance, the CAST report, which I think is a... Such a terrible piece of work that is damaging young trans people, is being cited elsewhere. They've... I think I read somewhere that in Sweden it had been cited in them trying to clamp down on healthcare for young trans people. So what happens in... We're not... No countries are islands anymore, are they? In that respect.

[00:12:52] That what happens gets used elsewhere. But yeah, it is interesting. I think I'll probably stay put for the moment. Me too. But I know you like cruising, Jill. How about going on a... Just going on a worldwide, lifelong cruise and just staying at sea? Is that the solution, do you think? That is the solution. In fact, a lot of people who are older have now taken to doing these long six to seven month cruises because it's cheaper than a care home. Yeah. Keep moving.

[00:13:22] That's a good thing. Keep moving. Keep moving target. Yeah. But yeah, so that's an option for you, Jill, just to stay at sea. Perhaps we should create our own... I think I read somewhere that some of these tech billionaires are trying to have this idea of trying to create their own state where they can all live and do the stuff they like to do. Maybe we should create an island of trans people somewhere. I don't know. We can all go in. What a thought. Or whatever. It's just... Transylvania. Transylvania. Transylvania.

[00:13:51] That would be a great name for it. So we want to do a big shout out to Europe and say, Europe, we salute you. We really do. And in many ways, there are all sorts of things that happened in 2016 that created maybe false differences between us. But for many of us in the world, we particularly love Europe, love the Europeans, and very much envy the state of progressive politics that you have on there. For goodness sake, hang on to it because, as you can see in other parts of the world, once you lose it, it's very hard to get it back again.

[00:14:21] No. And it was. Equal marriage really started the movement for it in the Netherlands, didn't it? They were the first country of Western Europe, and it's spread across so many countries now I've got equal marriage. Not everywhere. It's not perfect. But you can see that spread. Yeah. So maybe we, I think it's important we look beyond our borders and look to where things are working and maybe learn from them.

[00:14:42] It'd be interesting to learn more about Malta and Iceland, about what debates and conversations they had that led them to such a progressive place. I think it'd be interesting. Yes. And now you've made me think of the joke again, so I'm going to start snickering again and snickering about Maltesers. Maltesers. I don't know how long you've been keeping that one up your sleeve. I like a Malteser though, they are my favourite. Always favourite in them. Really? In selection, as if they've got more.

[00:15:12] I like it. I like it. I'm just making me hungry now, Jill. Yeah, I think I am a bit. And on that note, I think I'm going to head down and have a cup of tea. And I'm on a diet, so I can't have a nice choccy biscuit, so I'm going to just have a bit of celery and hit myself with it. So I'll see you next time around. Please don't have some Maltesers. Take care, everyone. See you next week. Bye. Take care. Bye.

[00:15:41] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk and all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen?

[00:16:01] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work, really important. So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us.

[00:16:29] Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to gillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.