Transvox - Discussing Queerness, Transness and Inequality

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to Transvox. And this week, not Jenny, but somebody you've seen before. Hi, Katie Munday. How are you? Hello. Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Join the sunshine. The sunshine. Why? You've got some. We have. You've got sunshine.

[00:00:26] Yeah. Always sunny in the south of England. Don't you know? No, I'm sitting in the north and it's flipping horrible. It's always sunny in Philadelphia. I knew that. I didn't realize it was always sunny on the south coast.

[00:00:41] Well, it all shines on the righteous, doesn't it? So there we are. Well look, last time we chatted, you brought me, opened my eyes very much to other marginalized communities and such like, and it was absolutely fascinating. And at the time we said we

[00:00:56] must get back together and chat more about some of these, some of the more fine grained aspects of the things that you talked about. So here we are back again. And I think you wanted to kick the ball off by talking a little bit about transmedicalization and

[00:01:14] some things around there. And also, I know we talk too infrequently about transmask issues as well. So I don't know if there was something there you wanted to cover off the cotton member of what you said last time. But I'm sure, I'm sure as we

[00:01:26] get chatting, we'll be into all sorts of different issues. But where do you stand on transmedicalization? What was your thought process there? Yeah, so I think it's probably a nice idea to summarize what transmedicalization means.

[00:01:45] So basically it's the idea that it's very much steeped in kind of cisgender ideals of what a man and a woman should look like. So there's this idea that trans people, in order to be actually legitimately 100% trans, that they have to either want or go through medical transition.

[00:02:16] And some people might call that full medical transition where it's both top surgery and bottom surgery, and possibly middle surgery. So stuff like facial feminization and things like that. So there's a cohort of cisgender people, but also trans people as well, who are gatekeeping

[00:02:37] trans community, trans euphoria, trans joy for people who either can't access medical transition or don't want to in the first place. And I think that's pants. Basically, I feel like if trans and gender diverse people, if we've decided looking

[00:02:59] at colonial ideas of the gender binary is not for us, or what it is for us, but in our own certain roundabout wiggly squiggly way, to then gatekeep other people away from that liberatory joy is, yeah, poor form.

[00:03:21] It's a peculiar argument, isn't it? Because I suppose, I mean, I came to this argument many, many years ago, because we were called transsexuals in those days, because we didn't have the concept of transgenderism at that stage, perhaps. And so what happened was we

[00:03:41] had people who were having what we called, I'm doing the bunny ears at the moment, sex changes. And we were basically having people who are going through the operating processes. And of course, what happened is a massive kickback because the government within

[00:03:54] of the day was sort of fighting the case why you would have all these people having sex changes as it was said in the day, rather than funding cancer treatments. And so that age old argument came into practice. And so it is quite an interesting thing that

[00:04:12] the reason that we used to be away from medicalization was this idea that we couldn't afford to do it because actually the health budget for all these trans people, all found, you know,

[00:04:20] there was going to be this wave, thrashing wave of people who are going to want sex changes as it was said in the day. Of course, we never talked about trans men in those days. We only talked about trans women. That's where all the headlines are.

[00:04:34] And so I find it quite odd that in a sense that we were moved away from medicalization because actually going to be having a sort of agenda ideology and such like was quite convenient financially for the National Health Service at the time. But it's quite interesting

[00:04:49] that is coming back that way now. But I'm fascinated by this idea that you said that it's coming from the trans community as well. So I often find that quite perplexing. So can you explore that a bit more?

[00:05:00] Yeah. So I think there's a certain amount of gatekeeping in queer and trans communities, spaces around legitimacy of queerness and transness as if we need to do some tick box exercise in order for us to be queer enough or trans enough. And I think that's where

[00:05:28] it trips up a lot of people because then you're being barred from community. But then are they communities that you want to be part of if they're exclusionary anyways? Yeah, I don't know. I find in queer spaces that I've been part of there is still a hierarchy of

[00:05:51] gay men being the ideal queer person. Perhaps married with children and there's still a hierarchy there and an idealism in some spaces and for some queer people around what is an acceptable queer face. And I think that's where it's kind of

[00:06:18] acceptable queer face. And that is around activism as well, fighting for marriage equality and stuff like that. And absolutely, that's an important issue. But also, why would queer people say people who are polyamorous or asexual and stuff like that

[00:06:42] fight for the right to get married in a very heterosexual manner? So there's still this for some people and I don't know, it would be interesting actually to see your thoughts on this Gillian because I don't know if there's a difference in generations as well

[00:07:03] around basically queer assimilation, like being the good queer people. Like, oh we don't have any problems with you because you're white and you're thin and you're male and you go to work and you come home and you have your children and you have your husband.

[00:07:24] We're not too sure about that but that's okay. We can kind of wash over that particular bit that we actually don't like, this is society speaking, because you have basically assimilated into every other part of heteronormativity. So yeah, and unfortunately these are the voices

[00:07:45] that are still heard from within queer activism and stuff are still heralded as the most important prominent, if people want, we see this in autism activism as well, there will be a certain group of people or certain individuals who are known to,

[00:08:11] oh well if a gay man's saying that then this is a trustworthy person for me to talk to or if an autistic person is saying that then that's everyone's autistic experience and basically just trot along what I always call the good little altis or the good little

[00:08:27] queers who will just basically yes people to prop up whatever narrative charities, governmental departments, whatever want to prop up about marginalized people basically. And I'm assuming that's the same across other marginalized groups as well.

[00:08:53] So let me just unpack a few of those things if you've sort of scattered a few interesting points around those, I want to make sure that we do each of them justice. So the first thing

[00:09:01] you're sort of talking about is this, this is these are my words not yours, but hierarchy of queerness or a hierarchy of transness quite like that, this idea and you're right,

[00:09:12] am I queer enough, am I trans enough? And it was also and I've spoken to lots of trans people who transitioned many many years ago 20-25 years and what they've said in order to be accepted as trans people they have to be assimilated because they actually have to

[00:09:30] disappear. They have to no longer be trans, they have to be seen as part of the other gender in such a way that they've lost the transness and they have been assimilated into

[00:09:42] the other sort of side of the gender infinery. So I think that's quite interesting, so I wonder if what you're talking about, so let's say that's a theme, so let's unpack another theme

[00:09:52] because one of the things I think he said was interesting there, so I always find that those people are non-activist and I wonder if you're talking about activism in its sense because I wonder if most people who aren't interested in activism even think about this.

[00:10:08] I mean I do, we're not really interested, no let me rephrase that, so I just wonder, let me just ask the question, do you think that this is only an issue for people who are in

[00:10:17] the activist community? No, I would say it was an issue across all different areas in our lives as these things that don't tend to exist in a vacuum do they? But don't you think it's

[00:10:33] a feature of the human condition for example, I'm just devil's advocating this, so you know you listen to people talking and people will say am I blonde enough, am I brunette enough, am I tall enough, am I short enough, am I pretty enough, am I clever enough,

[00:10:43] you know and then we'll have other peoples in a group saying are they blonde enough, are they brunette enough, are they tall enough, are they short enough, are they pretty enough, but you know I think there's a part of human nature that although we talk

[00:10:53] about this non-judgmental thing, people are massively just judgmental all the time and it is part of the human condition to sit there and you know even in a community, in fact being part of a community as we all say that together, are we tall enough,

[00:11:07] are we short enough, are we brave enough, you know that's part of what creates an in-group. So I wonder if that we have this are we queer enough is actually a sign of a healthy community?

[00:11:22] I like that first of all I just want to say about the assimilation point as well and around the fact I didn't say about the fact that it causes safety for a lot of people

[00:11:31] and there's a lot of safety within that so probably should have all that up. Yeah like challenging queerness, I'm into it, yeah if we're I think when I say are we queer enough, are we trans enough, I think I'm talking about the perspective of do I belong here,

[00:12:00] yes am I allowed to be here, am I taking up the space of someone else who warrants it more or you know this kind of capitalist idea about the fact that we have to earn things,

[00:12:19] we can't just exist, we have to do, I have to prove myself over and over again by going to work and going to this space and doing education and blah blah blah and everyone

[00:12:29] judging me and my competencies and I think that's what I was getting at but yeah but it's also interesting that that would be yeah challenging queerness, like the queering of queerness. Yes and here's a thought meta queering, yes, here's a thought if someone on the

[00:12:55] announces through Self ID that they're trans two o'clock in the afternoon and they have all the same rights, all the same privileges everybody else in that community in the queer community and they pronounce and they opinionize and they pontificate and say my views are equally

[00:13:11] valid every single other person here because I've been here for five minutes and you may have been here for 25 years but I am now equal with you and I think this is where are you queer enough

[00:13:20] comes because actually I take these people who've been in the community for 25 years thinking themselves you've been here for three seconds, you haven't earned the right, you haven't fought the battles, you haven't been on the barricades. I remember interviewing

[00:13:33] Is it Shay from Transaction? Yeah really fascinating conversation we had and they had been on a barricade that weekend and I'd been talking about activism thinking you've been on the back of a lorry talking about activism and speaking in front of groups and crowds and

[00:13:49] literally facing physical and you know abuse and violence all sorts of things and I'm sitting here for the comfort of my podcast studio pontificating about activism and I wonder whether that this idea of are you queer enough or are you trans enough comes from this idea

[00:14:06] that actually when we first arrive on this scene it's like being newborns isn't it maybe we should maybe we should earn our stripes a little bit first I don't know. There's something perhaps I kind of get what you mean. I'm going to be really contentious now

[00:14:41] I'm going to because that wasn't contentious. Oh okay right okay. This is the heart of the big rouse that Gillian I know I call Gillian all the time because it's me basically this is the

[00:14:53] row I have with my other of my schizophrenic or schizophrenic other side Gillian too. I mean I think this is one of the problems with self-id being contentious for a second because I think people genetic women look at the idea that suddenly we've got thousands of rights

[00:15:09] all in one afternoon because we popped a wig on decided we're trans and then suddenly we have all these new rights that we've sort of not earned we've not suffered for we've not gone

[00:15:18] through and so I can see why someone would say I'm just being contentious and devil's advocate well you know okay you've been you've been trans for many years you've medicalized you've gone through treatments I can see you're serious your opinion does have

[00:15:33] heft now whereas before it was just you know announcing to the world that you were there and then suddenly you've got all the skills and attributes competencies rights privileges that everybody else had and I wouldn't and I know you link it back to capitalism but why shouldn't

[00:15:51] we earn our place in the queer community wouldn't that make it more fun actually if we had to earn that place because it would be I mean all right we'd have a hierarchy but we'd have an explicit hierarchy whether there's today we don't have any higher up

[00:16:03] well the hierarchy is there but it's not explicit so no one knows how to to challenge it the orthodoxy they don't know how to progress through they don't know how to make it work for them and I think that's part of the problem there's so much

[00:16:13] fighting in the trans community potentially because actually we're all we're all sort of rattling around in a vacuum looking for some sort of order to be able to cling onto now of course once we get that order we'll all fight against it but these are all fighting in

[00:16:26] the same direction so you're talking about organization as opposed to hierarchy because organization doesn't have to be hierarchical in a sense I think this would be like queer anarchy which I'm completely and utterly here for yeah I think I think there's also

[00:16:51] something there that I think because you've asked like two or three questions on the same guy I don't know what question I want anymore but there's something there around who gets to

[00:17:01] decide that's it who gets to decide what queer enough trans enough oh you've put in a certain amount of effort uh you haven't you know you've done this amount of you know you've put this

[00:17:18] amount of hours in or whatever like we need some kind of tick sheet or I've done my you know queer training and I'm allowed to be here now I'm certified so I'm allowed to be here now and I think also it's it's similar to

[00:17:38] forgiving student debts in the US that has been a big topic for the last couple of years and there's a lot of people that are very indignant that they still have student debt um and that uh young presumably younger people but mostly younger people who are coming through

[00:17:56] educational systems now in the US in some states um don't have that debt or it's very much reduced um and some people have been forgiven debt um altogether so it there's just a bitterness

[00:18:09] there from so I have a lot of student debt I'm very privileged to have been to university I have a lot of student debt um but if I was about to say my son but if anyone

[00:18:23] doesn't even have to be younger than me if tomorrow they said no we're not doing student debt anymore people who have student debt you've just gonna have to live through that with the rest of your life but we're not going to worry about student fees anymore

[00:18:34] it's not I don't know I'd have to be very very bitter about that to go oh but back in my day you know oh I had to see it's just really just just seems to be a bit better if I'm honest

[00:18:46] with you but I can also appreciate that from the side of stonewall riots HIV and AIDS like I can appreciate that modern queer struggle looks very different to 70s 80s 90s queer struggle and of course before that and across contexts and countries and times and all that

[00:19:14] so I can appreciate that as well but you might none of these questions have an easy answer but you might argue that the queer struggles worse today than it was in the 70s and 80s

[00:19:23] because actually it was a different fight altogether uh what we're doing so so you've raised again some brilliant questions there so what you get whenever you create a legislative change is you get so for example um with women's pensions ages what ends up happening is that it

[00:19:39] was said that actually everybody's pension age is going to go from 65 to 66 and 66 to 67 and then and then you know two days before the pension cut off I know someone who who was going to get their pension at 65 and now it's 67 and and then I also know someone

[00:19:53] who was the other way around so there's sort of swings and balances there but you know you said something really fascinating and I think this is the heart of it and let me let

[00:20:02] me explain if I may wait I remember seeing an article on Facebook and it said trans women oh no no you can't say trans women anymore you have to say trans women they're two separate

[00:20:14] words and and it should be w capital w and I was thinking who's decided that and I think this is and I think this is what's fascinating you see there's a process in biology called autopoiesis where a system self-organizes and self-regulates and that doesn't happen with us

[00:20:30] because somehow we've contrived to make a self-organizing system not come together so we never self-organize so what we end up with which is someone pontificating about what we can and can't do but not someone thinking about well actually what does it take to be

[00:20:45] seen as a legitimate person going through this process in the old days press for change used to do a little bit of that at christian burns and and some of those other people always back in the

[00:20:55] 70s and 80s they used to talk about there's a very famous clip on television at the moment going during the rounds about a bunch of trans women talking back in the 1970s about and it

[00:21:04] was really easy they said I've had bottom surgery there you are done I can prove I'm transsexual you may not like it but it was and then all the and all the not all of it but

[00:21:16] loads of the animosity loads of the problems fell away and I think what we have at the moment is we have these vague ideas and a government would say unprovable ideologies which are provable and sustainable and then actually what you're saying is if you want treatment if you

[00:21:35] want to be taken seriously in a world you know where it's tricky and and in a capitalist system then you have to have that organization I love this idea that we actually have like a

[00:21:45] competency grid of levels of transness you know but let's say we did it'd be a lot easier yeah but where would I sit on that grid but you'd have a place would I right in the bottom

[00:22:02] happy and dark board with all the different communities and the thing is you scrabble are so many you're just showing off now I'm right in the middle um yeah yeah it's an

[00:22:13] interesting thing but also if if the if the idea is that assimilation is is best you know whatever then why isn't gender identity health care more accessible I think is it but I think

[00:22:27] that's a different thing because I think because I think it always comes back to scarce but scarce budgets and I think politically the government will always be challenged on uh figured me if there's a name that's I don't mean the name but little Tommy's cancer treatment

[00:22:43] at the age of two and a half you know is that a more worthy cause than Gillian's post-op you know but then trans surgery at 30 and now we're in and so this is this is where

[00:22:54] everything is comparative in the medicalization of the world everything is because if you have a scarce budget it's always and so you come back to you know the classic thing which

[00:23:03] which is if you can afford to you go private and you do your own stuff and you get it and you can have it and you know I think I talk on the podcast about someone I know who was

[00:23:10] start finish in three years all the treatments everything hair face boobs spot surgery they're lots three years I mean you can imagine that I've got seven year wait for my first

[00:23:23] appointment yeah yeah so I know I don't know where I don't know where um I don't know we're sort of be getting a bit philosophical here but I don't think there's any problem because

[00:23:33] I think we have to start this debate about being queer enough and trans enough because I think it's actually much more important than we think because I think this is how we

[00:23:43] engage with the external world by self-organizing and I mean you know who are the big thinkers on trans ideology anymore where's it gone all I hear is people's story and as if that

[00:23:57] as if that's important what I want to know is where are we to I mean gender ideology was something at least we've clung on to what's the next thing I mean we're actually getting

[00:24:05] to a situation now with the cast report where people who are trans are actually being accused of just be just being autistic or just being neurodiverse you know solve the neurodiversity and all the trans stuff will go away well I I'm not neurodiverse and I'm trans so

[00:24:19] what's happened what's happened there then you know the outlier if I'm the exception approves the rule then I'm happy to be so about to try for that but it's but it's interesting I don't see people moving us forward and I thought what was interesting about neurodiversity

[00:24:39] was that would be it would be there would be a methodology a system of systematization a medicalization training all that sort which would move things forward and I don't think I've seen that yet in your and that community and I've definitely not seen it now is I think

[00:24:52] we're so embattled we haven't got anyone standing up saying look this is where we're trying to get sorry you skipped a little bit there and then I started talking as well yeah you might have to repeat yourself Julian sorry that's okay so going back to the so going

[00:25:10] back to the initial thing that are we queer enough are we trans enough if if we could have an organized system which allowed us to say well this is what queer is queer enough this

[00:25:22] is what is trans enough I mean get around the fact of who would who would organize that and I think I think that might be quite a nice idea don't you no go on tell me why no

[00:25:36] it goes completely and utterly against the idea of queerness because because queerness is anything all things no things all the stuff and nothing at the same time that's that's the niceness of it and and it looks different for different people and different cultures

[00:26:01] and I think that's that's the niceness and the excitement of it is um yeah is that it's not not controlled if that makes sense like it's not uh there isn't an arbitrary system of sorting people into worthy less worthy or a little bit

[00:26:30] bisexual or a little bit this or um you know I think that's really exciting but there is because we're already saying well you that's where you started your argument talking about the fact that are we queer enough because people in the queer communities are judging each

[00:26:45] oh I see yes yes yes yeah um yeah I don't know that we'll ever get away from judgment the thing is if if you organized it into a organized it sorry queer spaces trans spaces

[00:27:00] into who is worthy and not worthy that's what it comes down to and when we're talking about activism and who's um who's put in work and who hasn't um and the ageism that comes around that

[00:27:15] and the ableism that comes around that um and the class issues that come along from that as well um yeah it becomes a problem it becomes the same the same people who

[00:27:28] um have power in most situations yes so what I'm hearing is um there's a sort of process in chemistry called fluidic fluidic process where you get something which is solid to apply energy

[00:27:43] heat to it and it becomes fluid and then you apply heat or energy to that becomes gaseous so it's a sort of fluidic process and I think that's what's going on with our community I

[00:27:53] think we've got some things for a rock solid which are absolutely embedded and with and and what you talk about the queerness thing I think I love the way you describe that that's like that

[00:28:00] gaseous thing in the ether sort of floating around you know and that can become a hurricane it can become a storm can't it can do damage it can make change happen but there's this bit

[00:28:10] in the middle which is like a fluidity which is about how you adapt to the the external world and I don't know that we sorted out those three states and I think what we end up happening

[00:28:19] is we end up with the three states not coalescing so neither state adds a value to the other and I think I think that's what's needed here I think somehow we need to

[00:28:28] and maybe I should just apply this leadership approach that I use to the world of trans people and write a book and call it trans philosophy and there you go the trans agenda yeah that's

[00:28:39] cool let's stop the transgender that would be hilarious um I've already got a new book which is the genius gene which is all about neurodiversity how about that I thought you'd know um yeah I don't know trying to organize trying to organize a group of people is

[00:28:57] hard work yeah and then obviously we're separated from each other in a lot of different ways geographically financially you know having to work having families that you might not have any support with and stuff like that like there's just barriers to people connect

[00:29:17] with any people connecting with anybody yes um at the moment especially in kind of European kind of context and stuff just nobody has the time nobody has the energy like we're still we're still massive I'm not talking about covid not being around anymore because

[00:29:36] it most blatantly is but we're still feeling the aftershocks of lockdown bereavements based around covid based deaths and long-term disability and chronic illness from covid and stuff like that so um that stops a lot of people from um yeah being able to be present

[00:30:01] so I think we spoke about that with the um when you were being contentious then as well about um oh you don't see disabled people anymore yet because so many disabled people are you know still worried about leaving their homes and being unprotected whilst they're out there

[00:30:17] because of covid so it's all of those things that separate us from and we say and I say community because we say the queer community the LGBT community the what as if we all know

[00:30:29] each other and get on with each other so I think that's what that that's what separates us and stops us from being more organized and I also think from um a more intersectional perspective if if a lot of us are neurodivergent chronically ill disabled and other

[00:30:54] intersections aside from that like it it becomes harder to be taken seriously to be listened to to be seen in any kind of um light where you're taken seriously um so I can understand why people

[00:31:17] would want to uh fight oppression but have no idea where to start no time no energy no head space to even be able to say this is what I really believe in and I need to do something

[00:31:32] about it where do I go who do I who do I talk to like what you know um and what issue do you you know because we're in the middle of a uh crisis on living living expenses and stuff um

[00:31:46] things that are going on overseas I mean what you know pick and choose like what we what we what's the most important thing to all of us here and that's going to be different

[00:31:56] um from trans person to trans person and I think we often we often um conclude on this podcast in a sort of and I don't mean that in a slightly glib way but there is a there is a power in the

[00:32:09] community and if you if you only know one person just stand shoulder to shoulder with them because I think that's the that's the thing isn't it it's about it's about finding people

[00:32:17] you get on with and you like and whether it's an ally or another member of the queer community or a trans person does really matter but it's it's about reaching out isn't it in a

[00:32:24] slightly more um you know just accepting people where they are kind of thing because the the thing is you you can you can disagree with people but you don't have to actually argue with them um and that's that thing about having interesting conversations that as I've just

[00:32:42] enjoyed our conversation we're not trying to change each other's mind but just sort of kicking ideas around and I think we're both coming to the same sort of conclusion that it's it's a tough old world out there and for me you know being trans is the least

[00:32:53] interesting thing that I spend my time thinking about it's you know it's like you said paying the bills having relationships going to work you know making my my way in the world you know all

[00:33:03] that sort of stuff and I would love to be assimilated and I think that's the matter and I admire people who stand up and um and um can can fight and can you know sort of you know

[00:33:17] have that edge and that's why I've actually said at my age I can do a little bit more advocacy because actually you know the slings and arrows are a little bit easier I've got a

[00:33:26] thicker skin than a lot of people have I suppose just because it's a bit more leathery than so but I think it's I think that lovely idea of yours about the queer sort of you know that zeitgeist the queer zeitgeist just being in it it's enough sometimes to

[00:33:40] know that we are and if you're sitting at home lonely on your own there are still ways of getting in touch with people and communicating with people there are charities out there who are

[00:33:47] desperate to help and and I think it's about getting into that into that space and but also being supportive in that space as well because you need to pay forward to people who

[00:33:57] want to support you by helping them as well I think I always say this about activism as well that I've heard people especially in kind of autistic and neurodivergent spaces go on about compare themselves to other people which we all do to some level or another

[00:34:21] and about you know and oh and these great activists and these great advocates and these and they but activism doesn't have to be it certainly doesn't have to be big and showy but also it's everyday conversations it's coming on a podcast and talking to Gillian about

[00:34:39] yeah whatever we decide to talk about five minutes before and it's it's having conversations with people who are around you it's showing up places it's as much as you can being authentically you in the safety that in a safe way sorry so it's all these little things I

[00:35:01] think some people forget that that's activism too and that's advocacy too and just because it isn't going to marches and chaining yourself to a fence and it doesn't make it any less worthy

[00:35:16] which I think was a point I was perhaps going to get to earlier when we said about you know paying your Jews as as part of a you know if you were new to the trans and queer community like

[00:35:30] Jews will look different for different people anyways even if there was some kind of system such as that it just it is going to look different to different people yeah and I think you're right

[00:35:43] there's those micro things isn't it it's these smooth gestures it's it's you know I I took an American idea I think it's I thought it was so cheesy horrendous idea and I was just standing

[00:35:53] in the coffee queue once and I paid for somebody else's coffee I just did it and I didn't and then they got to the end they were in a state where they looked like they needed

[00:36:01] a bit of help I didn't do it to be patronizing I just thought it's a nice gesture because actually and I'm not going to say who it is and then the person came to the queue and said

[00:36:09] someone's bought your coffee already and they were you know genuinely touched and it was me nobody knew it was me and that was enough for me to think actually you know what there are

[00:36:18] simple acts we can all just take which make our lives different I guess really important 100% so it doesn't matter where you are in the community which community you're in it's enough to be in it and it doesn't matter if you're trans enough queer enough

[00:36:33] what matters is that you've got trans or queer somewhere in your somewhere in the zeitgeist around you because then you know we're all part of it and I think what we're all doing a little bit

[00:36:42] is thrashing around because we're we're just satisfying we want to be more and better and clever and cleaner and faster and in all those sorts of things and there's no and there's no harm about and there's also no harm in having conversations isn't it so hopefully what

[00:36:54] we've done today is we sort of aired a few of the different sort of corners nukes and crannies of the argument and people who might be thinking for themselves are thinking I violently disagree with that or I violently agree with it or oh that's interesting because

[00:37:06] that's what podcasts are for aren't they something to think about on that note we should be probably come to the end of this one because I've just noticed your notice of time and every time you

[00:37:17] and I sit down and chat I get so fascinated I get carried away and lose track of the time so thank you Katie that's been fascinating have you any any closing thoughts before we

[00:37:27] head off into the wild blue young day no just yeah activism in the everyday you're doing it already you just don't realize you're doing it just lean into it more if you want to and

[00:37:38] you're safe to do so that's a brilliant message to quality thank you so much so I'm just going thanks for listening to this episode of TransVox it's been a joy to have you with us

[00:37:53] um if you want to make contact with us you can contact us at Gillian at TransVox.co.uk and if you'd like to support the work we do please go to Patreon and go to page TransVox

[00:38:07] and all of our money goes to our nominated charity and Jen you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes which one have you chosen our charity is called Beyond Reflections which is a charity that provides support and counseling to trans people non-binary

[00:38:23] people and their friends and their families across the UK an amazing charity doing some amazing work really important so please if you can give great and if you want to go and have a

[00:38:34] look at Beyond Reflections it's beyond-reflections.org.uk and but as I say if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing because we love to help the people who help us

[00:38:43] again if you've got ideas for the show things you'd like to ask us questions comments applause or brick baths feel free to send it all in to Gillian at TransVox.co.uk until the next time goodbye bye bye