Transvox - Can Religious Belief be Compatabile with being Trans+

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to Transvox. It's been a funny old week. How's your week been? I'm calling you Gill.

[00:00:16] You're Gill, I'm Jen, but that's how funny a week it is. Hi everyone. Yeah, it's been a bit strange, but everything's a bit strange now.

[00:00:25] Election and all that and yeah, work's been a bit weird for me, but yeah, we got to the Friday anyway. It's the week in the head of us.

[00:00:34] It does. I think the trouble is it doesn't feel like June is it because actually looking outside, I've got some guy in a big wooden boat floating down outside with all these animals inside because we've been having biblical torrential downpours.

[00:00:50] And actually strange enough. I wonder what's made me think that because we have a strange question this week.

[00:00:56] But anyway, before I get distracted, how's the weather down in Stoke? It's actually quite sunny here, if I'm being honest. But I refuse to believe it's June.

[00:01:04] I refuse to believe it's halfway through the year. That's never right. It was Christmas just a couple of weeks ago, I'm sure. But the weather's not bad down here, actually.

[00:01:15] Well, you know, there must have been something in the zeitgeist because we had a listener's question this week.

[00:01:24] And it was Carol-Ann from Pennsylvania, which is our mannish imagine, I assume is the Pennsylvania across Bond.

[00:01:34] And what Carol-Ann wants to ask was something around, well not something around. Her question is, is being transgender incompatible with having a faith? Does the fact that you have a faith and believe in religion and God mean that it cannot be transgender?

[00:01:50] Gosh, that's a big old question, isn't it?

[00:01:53] And I thought that's a big old question. And I suppose that's what got me thinking about it.

[00:01:56] I needed a big old trans chance of that, so you thought of me.

[00:01:59] I did. I thought, who can I get that can offend every single audience all in one podcast? And I thought, it's my old mate, Jenny.

[00:02:09] It is an interesting question, isn't it, religion and faith. There's sort of two parts of it. I think you can separate. Let's look at religion first, I guess, because you can separate, I think, faith and religion.

[00:02:24] Yes, there's obviously a close crossover. But I think there are some differences because obviously religion is the organized part of faith, isn't it?

[00:02:32] And for most of the organized religions, there isn't really a great track record for supporting LGBTQ people.

[00:02:42] Well, it's a really low trans people. I mean, that's my instinct.

[00:02:47] Certainly, certainly some of the big organized religions have there will be trans people within those religions.

[00:02:54] So I guess it's compatible. But the doctrine is pretty against trans generally, it seems, doesn't it?

[00:03:04] I mean, the Catholic Church of, I think this pope was supposed to be a more liberal pope, I think, than the previous.

[00:03:11] But that's a low bar, I think, in terms of progression.

[00:03:16] I think he was recently sanctioned for using a very offensive term.

[00:03:23] Yeah, he used to, in Italian or Latin, he used an offensive term.

[00:03:30] Yeah. Yeah. So what do you expect?

[00:03:33] I think there's three things, isn't it? There's religion, there's faith and there's spirituality.

[00:03:37] And I think that's quite a challenge, that, isn't it? Because I think the three things are different because you've got this modern idea of spirituality,

[00:03:46] which is that there's something bigger than us. But it doesn't have to be an organized religion, nor does it have to have a specific belief system.

[00:03:56] It's just this sort of sense that we're just specks in the dust and all that sort of blah, and all the Dalai Lama stuff and sense of being in consciousness.

[00:04:07] And we're part of the 45 Hertz field and all that sort of stuff.

[00:04:12] I mean, many, many years ago, I studied energy psychology and looked at all this and how you read people's auras and all these sorts of things.

[00:04:21] That was fascinating and very fascinating.

[00:04:27] I don't think air quotes work that well on an old year medium, Gilles, if I'm being honest.

[00:04:33] You've just outed me.

[00:04:37] No, but I think it's interesting. I mean, I have met people who are religious and are transgender. It's really interesting.

[00:04:44] I was chatting to them. We had a podcast quite a while ago with someone from the CEO of Transactual, which is quite a big trans organization.

[00:04:53] And they said something that was really fascinating. And I was surprised actually at the time.

[00:04:58] They said that they had trans people they knew or in their purview or whatever you call it.

[00:05:03] Some of them religious, some of them are very evangelical type religion and some were non-religious at all, true to atheist.

[00:05:11] And they also said they had people who were members of the far left political spectrum through to the far right political spectrum as well.

[00:05:19] And there's that thing about we risked, don't we, forgetting that just being trans is something rather than everything, I suppose.

[00:05:25] And so it's possible to have a faith and it doesn't have to be incompatible with being trans, is it?

[00:05:34] I don't see how it is. If there's a loving God in a form of organized religion.

[00:05:39] Why is that a problem? Yeah, I think it's you're absolutely right.

[00:05:43] I agree. I think I think I think there won't be a religion that doesn't have I don't know maybe some of the evangelical Christian churches would offer people to come out.

[00:05:52] But in most major religions there are people that are out as trans people and non-binary people in some religions.

[00:05:59] I think Hinduism, I understand, absolutely embraces third gender.

[00:06:04] Their approach to gender is inclusive for instance of more non-binary or a third gender and others other faiths and religions.

[00:06:13] But I think it's the organized part of that.

[00:06:15] So, for instance, you know, I'm not religious, you know, declared on the table.

[00:06:20] I'm not. I guess I'm agnostic slash atheist sort of in that not sure, certainly don't believe in it.

[00:06:31] But I know lots of people who do. So it clearly isn't incompatible because people exist.

[00:06:37] And if religion is about people being part of that of that faith and they are trans, therefore ergo they exist.

[00:06:45] So the incompatible bit is perhaps the wrong way.

[00:06:48] How easy it is for somebody to practice a religion that doesn't want to accept them must be really tough.

[00:06:56] I think I think I'm going to be careful not just to discuss one religion, which is the sort of Judeo-Christian thing.

[00:07:02] But but looking at that, I mean, I was often I'm quite interested in religion only in some ways I'm interested in politics because I find it quite fascinating and I have very strong views.

[00:07:12] And I'm sure they'll leak out during the course of our podcast.

[00:07:16] But I often think in the old the Old Testament God Leviticus and all that sort of stuff is very judgmental.

[00:07:23] It's the whole Yahweh sort of idea of death and damnation, all that sort of stuff.

[00:07:27] And it's more than New Testament, which is about Jesus Christ and loving and accepting and such like.

[00:07:32] And the thing is, if I think it's the guy called Dan McCallan on TikTok who actually does quite a lot of work really sort of dispelling some of the myths of religion.

[00:07:41] And and actually he actually is quite specific that there is nothing in the New Testament that talks about hell and damnation for trans people or gay people.

[00:07:50] In fact, he says there's actually no such thing as hell in the New Testament at all.

[00:07:54] It is the sense of as a loving treat your brother as if you are yourself, all that sort of stuff.

[00:08:01] Now, I'm not I'm not as fair with Buddhism, but my understanding of Buddhism is very similar.

[00:08:06] It's very accepting. It's very inclusive.

[00:08:09] It's very it's very actually agender in a strange sort of way.

[00:08:14] And then I know very little about the Muslim religion, so probably don't want to stray too much into that.

[00:08:19] Well, no, I mean, I know that's true and I don't.

[00:08:22] But mostly, I guess the difference with Islam is there's no that central hierarchy is different.

[00:08:28] I think I think I read somewhere about, for instance, religiously in Iran has said it's OK for people to change gender.

[00:08:35] And the other parts of I think I read that I might have got you wrong on that.

[00:08:38] I'm not saying that the positive across the board LGBT inclusivity, I think, but they certainly on that issue and there's other parts of Islam.

[00:08:46] The harm because they don't have that hierarchy like some of the other other religions.

[00:08:50] I think I don't know. Yeah, I get my instinct is there are other there's always there are space in religions.

[00:08:56] But I guess it depends with you and your faith about whether the space in your church is sort of locally.

[00:09:01] I have a I have a good friend who I work with, who is part who I work with, who longs to very inclusive, explicitly inclusive LGBT future church.

[00:09:11] So there are there are places out there.

[00:09:14] So that overall compatibility, but you're right on individual religions.

[00:09:19] There are different. I guess it comes down to how much you get fundamental about your religion and orthodox about your religion.

[00:09:26] That's where it might be more.

[00:09:28] Yeah, I don't adhere into an old text, which of course, you know, and can I guess be interpreted in ways aren't inclusive.

[00:09:39] But yeah, I think it is interesting, though.

[00:09:42] You know, I've had to learn not to be judgmental of religious people because there was a time that if somebody said to me, you know,

[00:09:51] And a Catholic or something, my instinct would be because I've read some stuff in the news about the church being answered.

[00:09:57] Then they are not as supportive of me and my life, you know, and actually that's sort of my biases.

[00:10:04] And actually, I've learned there's plenty of people who are religion who say, well, I don't care if our leaders say that this is what I believe in.

[00:10:12] And I am happy to accept and love you in that respect.

[00:10:16] Yeah, it is. It is interesting, isn't that there's the because if you look at this, of course, we'll go be careful that looking at America because we're a long way from it.

[00:10:23] We don't have to confess that I have many opinions based on talking to lots of Americans interviewing them for podcasts, but also having been there a bit.

[00:10:31] But still, you know, America is a very big and complex country.

[00:10:35] But it just strikes me that they do the thing that a lot of the populist politicians do, which is to weaponize anti queer sentiment, including anti-trans sentiment.

[00:10:44] It seems to be a unifying force and evangelicals are quite happy to hold them one hand.

[00:10:52] I've seen from interviews, which isn't representative, understand that.

[00:10:55] But I've seen people saying, I hate transgender people and at the same breath.

[00:11:00] But we all have to love each other and transgender people.

[00:11:03] So there's a that there's a there's a sort of dichotomy in the way that people think about.

[00:11:10] Yeah, I mean, I think this I agree there's plenty and you can you've got to be careful of say this.

[00:11:16] There's always outliers in all religions, but you know, you'll have people who claim to have a religious faith, who are anti-abortion, but pro death penalty.

[00:11:26] I find those things harder.

[00:11:28] You know, there's a dissonance and contradiction in some of those.

[00:11:32] But I guess, you know, people, I guess could find some hypocrisy and some of I don't know what I believe or stand for.

[00:11:39] So I think it's I think it's important not to be because I can be judgmental in my brain.

[00:11:45] I think I'm trying not to be, you know, because I've met many people who are religious and have just been very supportive.

[00:11:51] But I think it's the organized where it's used and weaponized, as you said, you know, is where it falls down.

[00:12:01] And I think it was really difficult if you have a faith or belong to religion that where you are, that can't be accepted.

[00:12:09] And I guess many people are in the closet and so forth.

[00:12:13] What what what what I do find interesting is one of my colleagues is Daoist.

[00:12:21] I thought we used to be called Taoists, but anyway, it's Daoist.

[00:12:24] I don't know that.

[00:12:25] Yeah. And they they don't they don't believe in a fixed gender identity at all.

[00:12:33] Right. So the call they had this I this sense of cultural gender equality.

[00:12:39] And the only thing that matters is not a person's gender, but the cultural interaction they have the Daoist has with a person, which should always be civilized, polite and respectful.

[00:12:48] So so so in other words, they don't worry about the use of pronouns because actually they're dealing with an individual and not a concept.

[00:12:56] They're not using the social concept.

[00:12:58] They're just dealing with a human being.

[00:13:00] And it doesn't matter what gender that human being is because what matters first is a human being.

[00:13:04] And I found that quite a I find that quite an actually the more I looked into Daoism, the more I find it is actually quite.

[00:13:11] Forgive my ignorance where Daoism is.

[00:13:14] It's part of the Chinese part of the Chinese thing.

[00:13:17] There's Daoism.

[00:13:18] There's I used to know all these years ago.

[00:13:21] There's another one.

[00:13:22] There's Buddhism.

[00:13:23] They're all sort of far east.

[00:13:25] There's sort of the groundwork of what we call sort of Eastern spirituality.

[00:13:31] And of course, we we think of Eastern spirituality in terms of meditation and mindfulness and blah, blah, blah.

[00:13:36] But actually, you know, these are these are these are states on this on the way to enlightenment.

[00:13:43] In fact, one of my businesses is called by one of those names.

[00:13:48] One of my therapy business is one of the states of enlightenment, which I which I picked out.

[00:13:52] And and I think it's quite it's quite fascinating that those religiously human beings is just part of a transcendence process towards finding themselves within the greater within a greater spiritual.

[00:14:04] And there's no sort of concept of time in the sense of, you know, stopping and going somewhere afterwards because there's just a there's just a sort of continuum of existence.

[00:14:13] It's it's quite a nice idea, really.

[00:14:15] So interesting, isn't it?

[00:14:17] I mean, I mean, you sort of mentioned that their approach to gender just doesn't see it doesn't see it in the same the way that we do maybe in Western Europe.

[00:14:27] I mean, you know, it's interesting because, you know, some languages don't have gendered pronouns.

[00:14:31] So my understanding Finnish doesn't have any gender pronouns.

[00:14:35] I think Japanese doesn't think of what they're I know finishes.

[00:14:38] They've met someone in Finland.

[00:14:39] So when they refer to each other, they don't refer to people's gender.

[00:14:42] And in some sense, we don't refer to lots of things when we refer to each other.

[00:14:46] So I think there's a lot wrapped up in sort of, you know, the cultures as well that penjom and religion.

[00:14:53] I mean, the one thing I'd say, though, there's so many of the organized religion, the very top and not inclusive of women.

[00:14:58] Right. They just not got the equality.

[00:15:01] You know, so many even in this country, you know, that supposedly the country we have religions that don't have equal rights for women.

[00:15:10] So I want to expect them to to go beyond that when they can't even even have that level of equality.

[00:15:17] I think is I find that so hard to understand.

[00:15:21] Well, yeah. So it's a difficult one for our question about whether it's compatible.

[00:15:26] I think it's a I think this I guess the issue, the difference of religion and faith is faith is more personal.

[00:15:34] And it's certainly not incompatible with your own personal faith.

[00:15:38] Yes. It's you know, it's that wider question, spirituality or faith.

[00:15:43] It just might be tricky when you actually want to be authentic within your practice in church or.

[00:15:52] And so it's terrible. It always seems like a terrible cop out when someone asks us a question, we say, and we always conclude it depends.

[00:16:01] But I suppose this is such a personal issue.

[00:16:04] I suppose if someone's asking, is this is does this preclude that?

[00:16:10] I think what we're saying in our opinion is it doesn't.

[00:16:13] So in other words, you can be transgender and have any as far as we're aware.

[00:16:17] There's no rule that says you can't be transgender and have any form of faith or spirituality.

[00:16:22] In fact, I would suggest that looking at some of those ideas that some faiths are positively welcoming of the idea of gender diversity.

[00:16:32] It does make me think when you raise this question, because I've never considered myself.

[00:16:40] I've never considered myself as having a faith.

[00:16:42] I thought it gives us the group be studying science and stuff.

[00:16:48] I just never considered I don't have a religion or faith.

[00:16:51] You know, when I think about being trans.

[00:16:56] There's almost this maybe some people may disagree with this almost as an essence of of faith in just being trans, being authentic to who you are,

[00:17:06] because I'm trans against all the evidence when I was growing up that I was, you know, my faith was challenged because I knew who I was.

[00:17:14] But everything everybody was telling me that's not who I am.

[00:17:17] I have yet to meet a trans person who knows why they're trans or knows why they're a man, knows whether one knows why they're non binary.

[00:17:26] It's an innate sense of being and surely that to me links in with faith is spirituality.

[00:17:33] I know I'm I know I'm a woman, but I can't you know, I'm I the evidence I can give is how I live my life and how society accepts me and I society.

[00:17:45] But I can't I don't have any scientific proof for it.

[00:17:48] I can't bring something out and say this is you know, so yeah, I did wonder when you did stop me thinking when you raise this really good question when you listen to 10 is whether part of being able to assert myself as a woman has been trans.

[00:18:05] It's part of me asserting my faith in who I actually am.

[00:18:09] I never really thought about those terms whether in of itself, there's a matter of faith because it certainly if faith and religion is something that can be tested.

[00:18:17] We are certainly be tested by society at the moment who wants to attack us.

[00:18:21] You know, they're trying to attack our validity and we're you know, our faith is no, you are wrong.

[00:18:26] We know who we are.

[00:18:28] I think, I think one of the things that always informs this for me is this idea of levels of personality.

[00:18:37] So in psychology we talk about one of the most basic levels of psychology being identity.

[00:18:43] So identity is and then and then above that you have things like values and beliefs.

[00:18:48] So I would see values and beliefs being slightly very important to people.

[00:18:52] But I think it's very easy.

[00:18:54] It's very easy.

[00:18:55] It's possible to be a common non believer.

[00:18:58] I don't think it's possible to become a non identity to chip.

[00:19:01] Now you can change your social identity, but it takes a lot.

[00:19:04] It takes a lot of effort, a lot of choice.

[00:19:07] Now I lost my belief because of what happened to me in the church.

[00:19:10] And you know, so that's a that's a very simple thing.

[00:19:13] If you see something hideous or something hideous happens to you, it's very hard to keep that a faith or belief going because of the your own personal experience.

[00:19:21] That was a very easy change for me to make.

[00:19:24] But I couldn't, you know, however much I tried to squash this identity who I really am and I've tried very, very hard over the years.

[00:19:33] It just always comes back.

[00:19:35] It always comes back.

[00:19:36] However much I hide from it, run away from it, however much I have denied it.

[00:19:40] I've worked extraordinarily hard not to be this.

[00:19:45] And at the end of the day, I just can't not be.

[00:19:48] And that's the difference.

[00:19:50] That's that's so true for many of us.

[00:19:53] And certainly I think I think sort of in a sense as well our generation of trans people who didn't have.

[00:20:00] I'm not this is sounds like it's easy for young people now.

[00:20:04] It's not, you know, every, you know, I had to fight against everything telling me.

[00:20:09] I couldn't be.

[00:20:10] Live as a woman.

[00:20:12] Well, I couldn't be accepted.

[00:20:13] I wasn't because everybody was telling me, yeah, everybody treated me in the wrong way.

[00:20:17] And it is that self discovery.

[00:20:19] So say your identity sort of, I think when you say you say you sort of it's more innate.

[00:20:26] It does grow.

[00:20:27] You come to terms with it.

[00:20:28] We come out to ourselves before we come out to anybody else.

[00:20:31] And I think and I think that can be a struggle.

[00:20:33] And I think that can be, you know, that is challenging.

[00:20:36] And that is a faith.

[00:20:37] And, you know, I had a faith that at some point I came to the face that I could live as a woman and I took the steps.

[00:20:46] But those first steps out there at the door were terrifying.

[00:20:50] Yeah.

[00:20:51] And if that's not me having some faith that I could make this work and that I would be accepted, I don't know what it is.

[00:20:58] But if you had asked me before we started this podcast, you have faith and I sort of said no, I don't have faith.

[00:21:05] Yeah.

[00:21:06] It's fascinating that it is interesting, you know, because as I sit in chatting and you're chatting away, I suppose listening to myself talking earlier, I've always believed myself to be a complete atheist.

[00:21:17] And I and I and I think I am but I do but I do agree in spirituality.

[00:21:21] I do think there is something in spirituality.

[00:21:24] I do think there is something in the, you know, in this idea there's something different from us.

[00:21:31] There's something in energy.

[00:21:33] I mean, we do know that if you put you to put two things together over the course of time, the molecules will move together.

[00:21:40] It's just physics.

[00:21:42] So there is something about energy and the way that energy works and the way that that moves around the universe and all that sort of stuff, not the universe, but you know, our physical universe.

[00:21:51] So so I'm quite prepared to I think and I think this does change over time.

[00:21:56] I've never changed my identity.

[00:21:57] There's no doubt about that.

[00:21:58] I've had to manage how I express it.

[00:22:00] But I think as I'm getting older and more more what's the word?

[00:22:07] I don't know.

[00:22:09] I was going to say wise, but I don't know if it's wise.

[00:22:11] I just think it's defeated.

[00:22:14] Certainly not defeated, Gilles.

[00:22:16] It's never defeated.

[00:22:17] I think it's a matter of.

[00:22:19] Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[00:22:21] I think I'm not dissimilar in sort of where I am.

[00:22:24] You can become more.

[00:22:25] I mean, less strident.

[00:22:27] I was more strident in some of my views and beliefs than I am now as I've grown older.

[00:22:31] I think I think I've been more prepared to hopefully more prepared to be accepting that I don't have all the right answers.

[00:22:39] And so I think I think I am more sanguine about it.

[00:22:44] I tend to see myself more as agnostic, I guess, than atheist because I just don't know.

[00:22:49] And I think embracing the fact I don't know everything is a good thing and there might be a higher power or we might all be, I don't know, ones and zeros in some computer simulation.

[00:23:01] I can't prove anything either way.

[00:23:03] But you know, that's fundamentally I don't see that as any difference in saying there's a God creator or whatever.

[00:23:12] You know, I think what's interesting about the questions when I was looking at it and it is quite a short question.

[00:23:18] And it's given a very long answer.

[00:23:20] Well, it's not that so much as it's more the sense that there's a lot unsaid in the question because I wonder if actually something has been said to because my obvious response was go and ask your pastor or your priest or whatever it is.

[00:23:32] Minister. But of course, if some of that negative and vective is coming from the the priest, the people that represent the faith or the religion that would give people cause to doubt themselves.

[00:23:46] So if you if you're in a church and a pastor standing up, you know, showering fire and brimstone on trans people and that's terrible and this not the other.

[00:23:54] It's very hard to to be able to to socially separate yourself from your community because there's enough to make us what's the word lonely and isolated as it is.

[00:24:06] And so I suppose losing that losing a church must be really, really tricky as well.

[00:24:12] Yeah, being cast as an outside, you know, being is horrible.

[00:24:16] It must be so tough.

[00:24:18] It's the same as any, you know, you're part of the in group and then you cast aside because you don't conform.

[00:24:24] And, you know, with that happens within families, it happens within religions, it happens within friendship groups and all sorts of things.

[00:24:32] And there's nothing I can't see this.

[00:24:35] There's anything more cruel than being cast outside.

[00:24:38] You are because somebody just doesn't want to accept who you are.

[00:24:41] I mean, I don't know.

[00:24:42] I mean, I'm you know, maybe organized religions will come around to it a bit more because we exist.

[00:24:49] The ergo we exist.

[00:24:50] And if you if somebody thinks well, somebody created a god or some or some being created us and he created us as trans people.

[00:24:59] You know exactly.

[00:25:01] You know, you know, or as I say, we're just still part of the simulation.

[00:25:05] But either way, you know, we exist.

[00:25:08] So I don't know if we've answered our dear listeners question very well.

[00:25:12] We have certainly.

[00:25:13] But it's very interesting subject the more you think about it.

[00:25:16] And yeah, you know, I don't know.

[00:25:18] The more I think I'm persuading myself that I don't see the two things as being incompatible.

[00:25:22] I think it's possible to have beliefs and faiths and religion.

[00:25:25] And like all I mean, the Bible is an interesting book because she can.

[00:25:30] Without being too contentious, there is a lot of there's a lot of stuff that's read into a document that's been translated four or five times and edited and curated.

[00:25:40] I mean, the there's a lot of who are in America at the moment because what we've done is they've linked the Constitution and put it into the Bible.

[00:25:47] And some people because some of the evangelicals are saying that's a wonderful thing.

[00:25:51] But there's priests who are going absolutely mad saying the Bible is the word of the Lord and Constitution is the word of God.

[00:25:58] And that's fascinating.

[00:25:59] That is it because because a religion itself allows for interpretation.

[00:26:05] And that's why we have priests and ayatollahs.

[00:26:09] And, you know, they interpret the text, don't they?

[00:26:12] And they they make they make sense of it for people in the world.

[00:26:16] And they made their own sense of it.

[00:26:19] They make their own sense of it.

[00:26:21] They are just more people.

[00:26:24] Well, yes, that was that Donald Trump Bible that he was touting himself.

[00:26:29] Yeah, there is one.

[00:26:30] And it included the Constitution, which explicitly separates church and state.

[00:26:34] So there's a real weirdness in the American situation where the Constitution says religion doesn't form part of the state.

[00:26:41] And yet their formal religious as a nation in that in their politics.

[00:26:46] And we are in our country where the church is part of our state and indeed.

[00:26:51] They're just people sitting in House of Lords.

[00:26:53] It's really odd, isn't it?

[00:26:54] Those two.

[00:26:55] But yeah, I mean, people who interpreted our human beings are interpreted with their own biases and their own brought up.

[00:27:03] But yeah, I don't know if we've answered the question other than saying it is compatible.

[00:27:11] I don't know if we've answered the question other than saying it is compatible.

[00:27:15] Yes, I think it is.

[00:27:16] Those that don't think it is there.

[00:27:18] I mean, I would regard those people who hate on friends, people or hate anybody because of who they are, are not compatible religion.

[00:27:25] Now, I would argue if you hate LGBTQ people and you call yourself a Christian, my version of that.

[00:27:32] So, well, you're not really a Christian because you're hating people because of who they are.

[00:27:36] And that is not compatible with your religion.

[00:27:41] I'm sure they would argue with me.

[00:27:45] I think for anybody who wants to know more about this whole subject, I'd go and have a look at Dan McLennan on TikTok because I've learned a lot from his rantings.

[00:27:57] And I think it's sometimes quite interesting to listen to an actual biblical scholar who analyzes the Bible and goes back and says, this is the original meaning in Aramaic and the other ancient languages.

[00:28:11] And this is how words have been not deliberately mistranslated but mistranslated.

[00:28:17] And of course, we have a version of the Bible that was authorized by the Catholic Church in the 1600s or whatever it was with lots of books taken out.

[00:28:26] I mean, some of the maddest books have been cut from the Bible.

[00:28:32] So again, I don't want to get into religious hot water.

[00:28:38] But I think it's good to listen to people who are doing this from the point of scholarly research rather than from the point of holding a position.

[00:28:46] And I think that's always interesting.

[00:28:48] Yeah, I shall check that out.

[00:28:50] Was that name again? Sorry, what was it?

[00:28:52] Well, I'm saying Dan McLennan.

[00:28:54] I'm trying to say that as if I was because you know what I'm like with names.

[00:29:01] So I'm just I'm just going to have a quick look on TikTok.

[00:29:05] This is even worse than anything else when someone's actually looking on TikTok for a name.

[00:29:14] On an audio, just quietly waiting for you to find it.

[00:29:18] But I'm sure I'm sure people can search it out if you put a couple of Google the right Google search.

[00:29:24] And yeah, I think I think one gel, I have faith in you.

[00:29:30] I think there's a lot of I think there's a really interesting people on TikTok.

[00:29:33] I've listened to what you're talking about Abigail Thorne last time.

[00:29:36] And I have a philosophy tube. Yeah, very interesting.

[00:29:41] Big brain. Very interesting.

[00:29:44] Ah, here we are. Yeah, Dan McLennan.

[00:29:47] Yeah, yeah. And it's and so the hashtag is hashtag Mac Lennon 1949.

[00:29:54] And he's very interesting because he wears weird T shirts and gets into trouble from religious scholars for wearing like a flash T shirt who says disrespectful.

[00:30:04] He says, you know, it's just a different part of belief.

[00:30:07] So there you are. Yes.

[00:30:09] Enjoy people.

[00:30:10] Do your research.

[00:30:12] But from our perspective, we are we are people that one with the Christian universe and we believe in love for all people.

[00:30:19] And there you are.

[00:30:22] And why would you love trans people? Because blimey, we are inherently lovable.

[00:30:27] We are inherently lovely. Yes, absolutely.

[00:30:29] I was actually looking some stats now and this morning, by the way, and the trans male trans

[00:30:37] mask, trans transfer numbers are almost exactly 50-50.

[00:30:43] And it's interesting with recent legislation now that all of the legislation has geared around

[00:30:50] trans women.

[00:30:53] Yeah, but that's the view.

[00:30:55] They want to maybe all easier for them to attack or whatever, you know, it's

[00:31:03] You found that within LGBT didn't you whether was more home effect a bit directed at sometimes towards gay men

[00:31:10] Yeah

[00:31:11] Anyway, we should we shouldn't unpack that subject. We are we are we are

[00:31:16] Straying I'm being very ambitious. I said I wasn't a funny mood. What's happening?

[00:31:20] So I do apologize

[00:31:22] Thoughtful mood today. It's been a

[00:31:24] unusually thoughtful and studied podcast rather than unusual. We'll have to go back to

[00:31:30] Someone I was talking to

[00:31:32] Someone midweek a very very lovely person and and saying that we were we do this podcast together and that

[00:31:40] we often have references like Mick Matt Manus and

[00:31:43] Various other people like that and and she said that's great. That's my era as well

[00:31:48] So if she's listening today, I thought I'd mention it Matt man is just for you

[00:31:52] So anyway, I know our demographic a yeah

[00:31:58] It's great to see you Jill

[00:32:02] They safe and stay and I have faith everyone

[00:32:05] if anyone wants to send us any other questions, it's Jillian Russell 77 art yahoo.com and

[00:32:12] you can find out more about us at trans Vox dot-co.uk and

[00:32:17] Other links appear on the website. You'll keep in faith for their yahoo email

[00:32:23] See you next time you take care

[00:32:25] Bye-bye

[00:32:30] Thanks for listening to this episode of trans Vox it's been a joy to have you with us

[00:32:35] if you want to

[00:32:37] Make contact with us. You can contact us at Jillian at trans Vox dot-co.uk

[00:32:43] And if you'd like to support the work we do, please go to patreon and go to page trans Vox

[00:32:49] And all of our money goes to our nominator charity and Jen

[00:32:53] You've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes which one of you chose our charity is called Beyond Reflections

[00:33:00] Which is a charity that provides support and counseling to trans people non-binary people and their friends and their families

[00:33:07] Across the UK an amazing charity doing some amazing work really important. So please if you can give

[00:33:14] Great, and if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk

[00:33:20] But as I say if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing because we love to help the people who help us

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[00:33:37] Trans Vox dot-co.uk until the next time. Goodbye. Bye. Bye