This week, Gillian and Jenny discuss the significance of Halloween and National Coming Out Day, particularly for the LGBTQ+ community, and the challenges faced by non-binary individuals in expressing their gender identity. They also explored the evolution of language and terminology, the role of online communities, and the importance of giving recognition to those doing something different.
They discuss the significance of Halloween and National Coming Out Day, both of which occur in October. They noted that Halloween parties and events can serve as a platform for people, particularly those in the LGBTQ+ community, to experiment with their identities and gain confidence in expressing themselves. Jenny mentioned that she had seen examples of trans people using Halloween as an opportunity to try out different presentations. They also touched upon the idea that coming out is a significant part of the transition process, and that events like Halloween and National Coming Out Day can serve as catalysts for people to take this step.
They also discuss the challenges faced by non-binary individuals in expressing their gender identity. They note that non-binary people often have to assert their identity more frequently than binary trans individuals, as their gender expression may not be as obvious.
Jenny shares her observations from working with non-binary colleagues, highlighting the exhaustion they experience in constantly reminding people of their preferred pronouns and gender identity. They both acknowledged the difficulty non-binary individuals face in navigating their identity, especially when it differs from the more obvious expressions of binary trans individuals. Jenny highlights that these identities are often misunderstood as being synonymous with trans men and women, but in reality, they represent a more diverse and growing community. The conversation also touches on the potential limitations of the term "non-binary" and the need for more inclusive language.
Hope you enjoy and find this useful.
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You can submit questions to gillian@transvox.co.uk
[00:00:07] Hi and welcome back to Transvox and hi and welcome back to Jenny. How are you, Jenny?
[00:00:13] I'm very well, Gill. How are you?
[00:00:15] I'm good, actually. I'm good. And I'm not making any reference to your current outfit today on purpose because, of course, we're going to talk a little bit about the significance of what's happening on Tuesday, which is the soul of All Hallows' Eve.
[00:00:29] Oh, that sounds...
[00:00:30] Halloween.
[00:00:32] Oh, Halloween. Yes, indeed. Halloween. Very interesting Halloween, isn't it, I guess?
[00:00:36] It is. And there's two things about it. One which is, I don't know, I mean, we're ancient, aren't we? So this is something we didn't celebrate as kids.
[00:00:46] No, not really. Not as a kid. No. Second treaty passed me by. I think it came sort of not long after I sort of left that age. It was all bonfire night, really, wasn't it? When I was growing up in the 70s, that was the big deal, bonfire night, I think.
[00:01:02] We used to have some terrible thing that people used to walk around with on a scooter or something shouting penny for the guy and used to have tons and tons of wood and there'd be a massive bonfire and tons of fireworks.
[00:01:16] Yeah, yeah.
[00:01:17] No one talks about Halloween. But what's interesting for our community is that there's two particular days in October which are really interesting. One which is National Coming Out Day on the 11th.
[00:01:26] And the other one which is Halloween. And for a lot of people, Halloween, Halloween parties, Halloween events are a place that they can sort of experiment with, practice with.
[00:01:38] So is that something you've heard about as well?
[00:01:41] Well, definitely. I've seen that. Definitely. Yeah, it's definitely. It's interesting to it because that sort of that dressing up in costume, fancy dressing.
[00:01:47] I've seen that. I've read many accounts and videos of trans people who that might be their first steps out in public because it seems to be particularly for trans women is that men, that people, you know, trans women before they're able to transition or come out may use that as an opportunity in public to dress more feminine, for instance, or some sort of costume that is more female presenting.
[00:02:11] I think that's really interesting because people have seen that. I mean, I remember growing up, it's interesting because people ask me this, I'd have run a mile from a fancy dress party, even though it would have given me the opportunity.
[00:02:21] Because I thought, what if people discover who I am, you know? So I didn't do that.
[00:02:26] But I certainly see lots of examples of people who maybe their first steps out in public have been out in Halloween.
[00:02:35] So I don't know what my, I was thinking about dressing as a sexy podcast host, but I don't know quite what that costume looks like.
[00:02:44] A glittery microphone or something, I don't know. But yeah, how about you? It's not something I've sort of engaged in, but I know our community does.
[00:02:53] Well, because we have the same problem, don't we? Because we're slightly similar age groups.
[00:02:57] And of course, it wasn't really a thing. But I know someone who, I remember there being someone I was at college with.
[00:03:08] And so that must have been in the 80s sometime. And they did this thing where there was a Halloween party because they were around then.
[00:03:15] And this is at college. It was music college. So it was, you know, it was much more accepting of different sexualities and orientations and such like.
[00:03:24] And I remember him pitching up and having a nail varnish on and black lipstick.
[00:03:29] Yes.
[00:03:29] And, you know, sort of very androgynous clothing and such like.
[00:03:36] And he was sort of rocking around. And what was fascinating was the reaction of all the, I suppose we call them cis girls now.
[00:03:44] Because, of course, they were fussing over and petting over them and such like.
[00:03:47] And, you know, there was a real, there's a lot of interest and such like. I mean, there was not really that much negativity.
[00:03:53] And it wasn't much longer after that that he actually announced he was gay and came out.
[00:03:59] And he had definitely used it as a way of gauging the water.
[00:04:03] Now, you know, the arts.
[00:04:04] It was interesting.
[00:04:05] Yeah. I mean, I've always said that the arts are a great community to be in because we don't really think that much about it.
[00:04:11] Because we're used to talking about feelings and emotions.
[00:04:14] Actually, orientation is not so much of a stretch, as it were.
[00:04:19] But I think it's definitely the place.
[00:04:21] And I've heard other people say this as well.
[00:04:22] When you read forums.
[00:04:23] Oops, I just dropped something on the floor.
[00:04:25] When you read forums and such like.
[00:04:27] Lots of people say this is the opportunity to try it.
[00:04:29] I mean, a lot of people, a lot of people who are a bit younger than us, to say the least, are dressing like that all the time.
[00:04:36] So it's actually they don't need Halloween to do it.
[00:04:39] But sometimes, again, it's a pushing thing a little bit further, you know, because there's the whole Rocky Horror Show thing that you can dress around as well.
[00:04:46] And I know that's a major trope as well, isn't it?
[00:04:49] Well, I think that's really interesting, isn't it?
[00:04:52] Because it's that.
[00:04:54] It's all about coming out.
[00:04:56] We talk about transition, but often transition, first part of transition is coming out, isn't it?
[00:05:00] And that coming out for the whole community, not just trans people, but the whole LGBT community.
[00:05:05] It's that.
[00:05:07] It's those things, the catalysts almost.
[00:05:09] Those little things that can push you and put you in that position where you start to get the confidence to do that or dip your toe in that, you know?
[00:05:17] So Halloween, yeah, is one of those things, those events that, you know, where expression is not the day-to-day hon drum expression.
[00:05:26] And it can be something that the test says what.
[00:05:28] I think it's very interesting.
[00:05:31] I think it was, was it?
[00:05:32] Is it?
[00:05:33] I don't know if I'm right.
[00:05:33] Is it National?
[00:05:34] Was it National coming out day recently?
[00:05:36] Is that something in October?
[00:05:37] I can't remember.
[00:05:38] October 11th, yeah.
[00:05:39] October 11th, yeah, which is, you know, the idea of coming out.
[00:05:43] And I think Halloween has that, yeah, this time of year, maybe be interesting if it's statistics to what, what time of the year people are most likely to come out.
[00:05:53] I don't know.
[00:05:55] It is fascinating, isn't it?
[00:05:56] And I wonder, I wonder, there's a couple of things.
[00:05:58] Because, of course, obviously your gender has nothing to do with the way that you express your gender.
[00:06:03] But, I mean, it's, well, but it's a, it's a useful thing to be able to, to experiment with and such like.
[00:06:09] And you can, you, but also you can, you can experiment with different sorts of fashion and such like.
[00:06:14] But it does, it does make me think that we often think of the expression thing as being particularly about trans women, trans men, because actually, especially trans women, because there's a suspect, there's a degree more risk about that process.
[00:06:28] But I just wonder how that works for, and I can see how that would work for gender fluid people.
[00:06:34] But I wonder how it works for non-binary people.
[00:06:36] Well, it is, it is interesting this.
[00:06:39] I mean, I've been talking to some friends and colleagues around this.
[00:06:41] Because I touch on this when I'm delivering training.
[00:06:44] Because you're absolutely right.
[00:06:45] For, if you think of binary trans people ourselves, I'm a woman, binary.
[00:06:51] And I see myself a woman who happens to be trans.
[00:06:54] That's the binary.
[00:06:55] So when I came out, the coming out bit was telling people and showing people photos.
[00:07:00] The transition was, you know, living my life out there.
[00:07:04] In many ways, although there are challenges, as you said, risks at times, it's also, you don't need to explain to people in some ways.
[00:07:13] Even in 2005, people, there was enough awareness of trans to go, okay, you can see what's happening with, I'm not going to tell you me all day, but with Jenny, right?
[00:07:22] They go, oh, okay.
[00:07:23] I think what's interesting for non-binary people, and I've spoken to them about this, is because I'm supporting people at work who are non-binary.
[00:07:32] And taking that, and, you know, using the word transitional or coming out, is that if you haven't got, if you're not, if your expression isn't changing how you present, and it might do or it might not do, or your name isn't changing.
[00:07:45] Because it might do or it might not do.
[00:07:47] Then you've got to assert it more, haven't you?
[00:07:51] Because you've got to explain to people.
[00:07:52] It means that declaration that sort of isn't necessary.
[00:07:57] It wasn't sort of so necessary for me once I've taken the step.
[00:08:00] So I think, because not, I think there were some challenges in that, because, you know, I've spoken to non-binary colleagues I have who I work with, who are so constantly having to remind people that they are non-binary.
[00:08:15] This is how I need to be referred to.
[00:08:17] This is how I want you to think of me.
[00:08:19] You know, I'm not a man or a woman.
[00:08:21] Please refer to think of me now.
[00:08:22] And what I've got to the impression is it can be quite exhausting.
[00:08:27] Yes.
[00:08:27] Because people aren't taking it seriously enough, because they don't see, they don't have those visual clues for her, for instance.
[00:08:36] So I'd start to think about that, because it's all transition.
[00:08:39] I think about this as a trans woman.
[00:08:41] But that's a real challenge, I think.
[00:08:44] And I think it's fascinating, isn't it?
[00:08:46] Because you, you know, I, just like you, we spend a lot of time with different people within the community.
[00:08:52] And it is often quite difficult, because it's not like, I think trans women particularly are more obvious.
[00:08:59] I'm speaking for myself anyway.
[00:09:01] I know I'm more obvious.
[00:09:02] But you're right, often with non-binary people, I mean, you know, the idea of them experimenting with coming out on Halloween is irrelevant in a funny sort of way,
[00:09:12] because they can, they're sort of, we sort of know that people are out all the time.
[00:09:17] It's just that expression that changes.
[00:09:19] And sometimes, sometimes National Coming Out Day can be an excuse just to change your pronouns.
[00:09:24] And sometimes that's enough to be able to start the process.
[00:09:27] But you're right in terms of that commentary about being exhausting, because it's bad enough with, it's bad enough for us, because it is obvious.
[00:09:38] But for them, when it's not obvious, and you often see people who are non-binary changing haircuts or, you know, status of dress and the way they dress, not the article of dress.
[00:09:50] And it is interesting to make that thing so it's obvious enough for people to remember.
[00:09:55] And there are a lot of people who want to remember.
[00:09:57] And they're very well-meaning, such like, but the non-binary thing is, I think, is the next leap in evolution of the language that we have around us, isn't it?
[00:10:08] Absolutely agree.
[00:10:08] It seems to be much harder to understand.
[00:10:11] I think if you are trans, you understand it.
[00:10:13] You have no problem with it.
[00:10:14] And agender, non-binary, it's absolutely fine.
[00:10:17] Because we're moving across the binaries.
[00:10:19] We understand that portion, maybe, of the spectrum where there is, you know, you're neither one thing nor the other.
[00:10:26] And it makes sense to be either fluid or agender or non-binary.
[00:10:30] But I guess if you've always been on the binary and you're cis, it must just be such an extraordinary thing to wrestle with.
[00:10:37] Trans is hard enough, but non-binary must be a real challenge.
[00:10:40] Well, I don't know.
[00:10:41] Yeah, I think you're going to be right.
[00:10:43] I don't really want to speak because I don't have that lived experience.
[00:10:46] But I certainly know from the people, my friends and colleagues, I believe I'm more like, within the trust,
[00:10:53] I know more colleagues in our religious trust that are non-binary and gender fluid than they are to what people traditionally see or stereotypically see as trans people, which is trans men and women.
[00:11:05] You know, so when people talk about being trans, that's what people think about.
[00:11:09] But actually, it may be we're becoming more of a minority in the whole of our community.
[00:11:16] And there are more people who are saying because, of course, non-binary gender fluid terms are literally decade old, maybe a bit longer.
[00:11:27] Yet people have been around forever.
[00:11:31] So, you know, so there's everybody with non-binary people around, which genuinely didn't have the language to use.
[00:11:39] And now we've started to get that, which I think is amazing.
[00:11:43] But I think the community is starting to understand that because and that.
[00:11:48] So you're absolutely right on that.
[00:11:50] I can't say what life's easy.
[00:11:52] I just know from talking to colleagues, particularly talking about pronoun use, I think it's much harder for us to get that embedded because that's why, you know,
[00:12:03] getting used to sharing pronouns, getting used to the idea that pronouns are given.
[00:12:06] And it's so important for non-binary people, those that wish not to use the binary he and she pronouns.
[00:12:14] You know, and that's where a lot of our work is.
[00:12:18] You know, we've done work in our trust with our staff network.
[00:12:21] We've done a video on pronoun use to get everybody to share the pronouns.
[00:12:26] I've got a colleague, CJ, that hopefully will be on a podcast in the future while we're with.
[00:12:31] We did brilliant pieces just about their pronouns on there.
[00:12:34] Yeah. And so I think there's a lot.
[00:12:38] I think that's that step of work that we're trying to do.
[00:12:43] And as a charity, you know, being new, that's not my lived experience.
[00:12:48] No.
[00:12:48] I do wonder. I find this interesting.
[00:12:50] I always feel I'd be careful when I say this about the term because it's certainly not for me to come up with that terms.
[00:12:55] But I wonder about the term non-binary, whether that will find, because it's an identity of ruling things out.
[00:13:04] You know, you're ruling out the binary.
[00:13:06] But whether there's a term that could actually describe, because the cultures that didn't have the binary around the world,
[00:13:13] like Native American cultures, South Britain Islands, who've always had more genders than just two genders,
[00:13:18] they don't use that term.
[00:13:20] I think it's spirit gender is used in some Native American cultures.
[00:13:25] And we've come up with the term non-binary, sort of not the binary.
[00:13:30] But that implies that the binary, you know, that gives status to the binary that maybe it shouldn't have, you know.
[00:13:37] That's very interesting.
[00:13:38] If we accept gender is a spectrum, then, you know, that's...
[00:13:45] So I don't know. I mean, that's not for me to come up with these terms.
[00:13:48] I think this is very interesting.
[00:13:49] But that whole thing about coming out...
[00:13:52] And I suppose it goes...
[00:13:54] The whole community doesn't...
[00:13:55] Oh, I'm getting very loud, then.
[00:13:58] It goes from the community, doesn't it?
[00:14:00] That everybody's coming out as different anyway, in a way, isn't it?
[00:14:04] Everybody's transition is no two are the same, are they?
[00:14:07] You know?
[00:14:07] Yeah.
[00:14:09] And I think one of the challenges here, because, I mean, you know, there's this idea of two-gender or three-gender, two-spirit gender, pan-gender, all that sort of stuff, which are some of the alternatives, I think, to non-binary.
[00:14:23] Because I think you make a really interesting point here.
[00:14:25] But we also get into this place where this...
[00:14:29] The fact that we don't have a really useful term for...
[00:14:33] And this is only our own personal view, and this is only my own personal view.
[00:14:37] So, and, you know, there's no commentary.
[00:14:38] It's not...
[00:14:39] I'm not someone to comment on it.
[00:14:41] But, yeah, I think you make a really interesting point about that, that not having that specific term.
[00:14:47] Because then you end up with this sort of idea that, oh, you know, you hear sort of more right-wing people yapping on about, you know, 97 genders thing.
[00:14:56] And I think sometimes, yeah, or whatever it is, you know, you do hear this sort of rhetoric because actually we're still playing with the language and trying to figure out what this thing means.
[00:15:07] And if you're not liberal, you're not prepared to listen, you're not prepared to think about the fact that people can be different without actually having to be a threat, then, you know, people see this sort of dialogue as somehow being difficult or offensive or woke or whatever that phrase might be.
[00:15:25] Yeah, I absolutely agree.
[00:15:27] I mean, I was talking about this this week, and in the session I did, I said, I think...
[00:15:31] Because I think the binary approach, I would say, is quite a Western European concept, isn't it?
[00:15:38] You know, that's where it's going.
[00:15:39] It's what we were taught growing up at school, boys, girls, nobody else.
[00:15:42] And I think our culture is catching up with the rest of the world.
[00:15:46] So I think those cultures that for a long time have understood that gender is not binary.
[00:15:52] And we're as a culture catching up on that in the last 12 years.
[00:15:57] And it's enabled people to say, actually, that is who I am.
[00:16:00] I'm not a man or woman.
[00:16:01] I never have been, right?
[00:16:03] So I think that's really interesting.
[00:16:05] But, yeah, it's amazing we've come from Halloween to this slightly more deeper.
[00:16:10] But it is that thing, isn't it?
[00:16:12] These things about coming out and then what does that actually mean?
[00:16:16] I think it's something...
[00:16:17] I mean, we've got, you know, maybe some podcasts in the future.
[00:16:20] We can get some of my colleagues who are non-binary and fluid to come and talk about it.
[00:16:25] Because I think that's really interesting, actually, what that means and how that's been.
[00:16:40] I think it's really interesting.
[00:16:59] For them.
[00:17:00] But I just know at the workplace, it can be difficult.
[00:17:01] It can be really difficult.
[00:17:01] Because actually, yeah.
[00:17:02] Yeah.
[00:17:02] It seems a disservice to their contribution that we're not referring to.
[00:17:05] A good shout out.
[00:17:06] I like the term envy.
[00:17:08] I like the way it's...
[00:17:08] Yeah, it's a good way of doing it.
[00:17:10] Sort of starting off with the non.
[00:17:13] It's envy.
[00:17:13] But yeah, I think it's a good shout out, Jill, that this time of year and that Halloween.
[00:17:19] But that thing about coming out, I didn't ever really...
[00:17:24] I didn't have a...
[00:17:26] See, my coming out was a bit odd because I didn't really come out, even though I shot in a normal way.
[00:17:33] Because I was sort of outed to my family, which was not what I wanted, but did me a favour in the end.
[00:17:41] And then I didn't find any problem in telling colleagues.
[00:17:44] So it was family I would have struggled with.
[00:17:48] And I don't know when I've ever done that.
[00:17:51] It's funny, isn't it?
[00:17:52] And coming out, I think, is often associated, rightly or wrongly, I don't know, it doesn't really matter, with the sort of sexual orientation rather than...
[00:18:02] Yeah, we don't always talk about it as trans.
[00:18:07] Because the way I...
[00:18:08] I don't know if you agree.
[00:18:09] Transition is when we are living authentically and doing that.
[00:18:14] Back in the day, we used to call it going full-time.
[00:18:17] I remember.
[00:18:17] Yes.
[00:18:18] You say people, oh, we're going full-time.
[00:18:20] It's a weird way of putting it.
[00:18:22] But the coming out is telling people that you belong to this community, you know?
[00:18:27] And there is that, you know?
[00:18:30] And yeah.
[00:18:32] So yes, it's more often people think about sexuality, don't they, in terms of...
[00:18:38] Maybe it does relate more to people than they are by Jenna Fluid.
[00:18:40] Because as I said, you know, when Sam Smith, I suppose the first famous...
[00:18:44] The singer Sam Smith, the first famous non-binary person in the UK, they came out about...
[00:18:51] I don't know, it was about five years ago, maybe?
[00:18:54] That was more of a sort of...
[00:18:56] It felt more in the press and stuff, like somebody was used to, in the 80s, come out with a sexuality.
[00:19:01] In terms of the mechanisms.
[00:19:05] Yeah, it is absolutely fascinating.
[00:19:07] I'm just looking for that episode as we're chatting.
[00:19:10] I can't find it.
[00:19:11] But anyway, look, we've certainly wandered around the subject area.
[00:19:16] So we start with...
[00:19:17] We've done philosophy again, by mistake.
[00:19:21] And we haven't got...
[00:19:22] The accidental philosophists.
[00:19:23] And I think what's interesting is that you often hear this expression about your egg being cracked.
[00:19:28] Oh, yes.
[00:19:29] The egg meme.
[00:19:30] Yeah, the egg being cracked.
[00:19:32] There's a...
[00:19:33] Do you know Reddit?
[00:19:34] It's a Reddit in the communities you have a lot.
[00:19:37] I'm not that ancient.
[00:19:39] I don't know.
[00:19:40] So there's a Reddit group called Egg IRL.
[00:19:43] IRL.
[00:19:45] It's in real life, right?
[00:19:48] And it's that thing of you crack your egg when you come out as trans.
[00:19:52] And so people who are eggs are trans people but haven't recognised.
[00:19:58] I don't know whether it's a good concept or not.
[00:20:00] But certainly there's one streamer I've followed that everybody used to say they were an egg and they're an egg.
[00:20:05] And they say, no, no, I'm cis.
[00:20:06] I'm not trans.
[00:20:07] And now that was trans, you know?
[00:20:09] So, yeah.
[00:20:11] Egg.
[00:20:11] I forgot about eggs.
[00:20:14] Is that...
[00:20:15] Do you feel that's the right term or not?
[00:20:17] It seems...
[00:20:18] Well, I don't know.
[00:20:19] I don't know.
[00:20:20] It doesn't work for me, but that doesn't mean it's right for other people.
[00:20:22] And I think the problem is that the language takes a long time to catch up.
[00:20:27] And then the language goes faster.
[00:20:29] And then we all sort of rebel a little bit about the idea that somebody somewhere is inventing a language for us all to join in with.
[00:20:37] And then we sort of adopt the language.
[00:20:38] And then we go ahead of the language again.
[00:20:41] So this is sort of like a...
[00:20:42] I was going to call it an arms race, but it's the wrong sort of analogy.
[00:20:45] It's like a tortoise and a hare thing between experience and language, isn't it?
[00:20:49] It is.
[00:20:50] I think I'm fascinated by it.
[00:20:52] And then just the language and terms we use in the community and how they've changed and how it developed.
[00:20:57] And the language we use now that we weren't using literally a decade ago, we were using some of those terms.
[00:21:04] And how they...
[00:21:05] My instinct is a lot of these now, this language and these terms develop through the online space and through younger people.
[00:21:12] My instinct is that's why, you know, how these terms are changing.
[00:21:16] Yeah.
[00:21:17] Yeah.
[00:21:17] Well, we've had a couple of younger people on quite recently, and it's been quite scary listening to their experience.
[00:21:21] Because it's...
[00:21:22] And again, it's that similar thing, isn't it?
[00:21:24] It's that in many ways they are so far ahead of us and many ways so far behind because actually they face just different challenges.
[00:21:32] And the things that we take for granted, they don't and vice versa.
[00:21:35] And I think the thing we just never had, which was a massive issue for us, was social media.
[00:21:40] But it's sort of a poison chalice for...
[00:21:45] I suppose, you know, I can ignore social media.
[00:21:47] I don't give much of a monkeys about it because I'm not on it all the time.
[00:21:50] But you see people whose entire lives are on social media and their social constructs are there.
[00:21:56] And even the sense of belonging sits in social media.
[00:22:01] And I think we're creating a different problem there.
[00:22:04] That's true.
[00:22:05] But, I mean, although it wasn't called social media there, it was...
[00:22:09] When I found a community online, so I found a community through chat rooms and through blogging, our blogs.
[00:22:16] And it wasn't the social media platforms we have now, but the mechanism was people sharing their life experiences and connecting.
[00:22:24] So I made friends through blogging, which was, you could argue, an early form of social media in certain ways.
[00:22:31] And it's now been bypassed by that.
[00:22:33] And when you're a disparate community, having been able to find a community is the biggest thing.
[00:22:38] So I know that all the downsides, without social media, most or the internet's ability, many of us would never found a community in the confidence.
[00:22:49] I'm not sure without finding a community, I would be where I am.
[00:22:53] And I did, which I wouldn't have found until the late 90s.
[00:22:58] Well, if anyone's wandering around on Tuesday night and you see someone who normally is, I don't know, it looks very different.
[00:23:07] And give them tons of encouragement.
[00:23:09] I think that's the thing, because you just never know.
[00:23:11] You might be seeing...
[00:23:11] You do.
[00:23:12] That is so true.
[00:23:12] You might be seeing an egg being prepared.
[00:23:16] Yes.
[00:23:17] Maybe that's the way to put it.
[00:23:19] Yeah, I like that.
[00:23:20] I like that.
[00:23:20] But yes.
[00:23:22] Yes.
[00:23:23] If that's the thing, seize that opportunity, I guess.
[00:23:26] Yeah.
[00:23:27] Yeah.
[00:23:28] It's never harms, is it, just to see someone who is doing something different, just to give a, you know, some sort of recognition.
[00:23:34] And people don't need recognition, but sometimes people do need it.
[00:23:38] And that's great as well.
[00:23:38] So are the people at Newcastle going to see you trick-or-treating, Jill?
[00:23:42] Honestly, I have no desire to.
[00:23:44] We have to be honest.
[00:23:47] The lights go off at 5pm.
[00:23:49] And there's quite a lot of hiding behind closed doors or going out.
[00:23:54] So there's no...
[00:23:55] Otherwise, there's thousands of small humans wandering up and down, throwing things with their hands out, looking for sweeties.
[00:24:02] So I'm off, because I just eat them all myself.
[00:24:05] That sounds like a very good plan, that does.
[00:24:08] Yeah.
[00:24:09] Well, look, enjoy yourself.
[00:24:10] And I shall see you next week.
[00:24:13] And we'll muse on something else, hopefully, that's of interest to people.
[00:24:17] So...
[00:24:18] Absolutely.
[00:24:19] Well, look forward to it.
[00:24:19] Have a good week, Jill.
[00:24:20] And you.
[00:24:21] And if anyone's got any questions, you, of course, can submit them at jillianrussell77 at yahoo.com.
[00:24:27] Oh, please do.
[00:24:28] We're still there at transvox.co.uk.
[00:24:30] Speak soon.
[00:24:31] Thanks, everyone.
[00:24:32] Bye.
[00:24:32] Bye.
[00:24:36] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox.
[00:24:39] It's been a joy to have you with us.
[00:24:41] If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at jillian at transvox.co.uk.
[00:24:49] And if you'd like to support the work we do, please go to Patreon and go to page Transvox.
[00:24:55] And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.
[00:24:58] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes.
[00:25:02] Which one have you chosen?
[00:25:03] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK.
[00:25:15] An amazing charity doing some amazing work.
[00:25:17] Really important.
[00:25:18] So please, if you can, give.
[00:25:20] Great.
[00:25:21] And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.
[00:25:26] But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us.
[00:25:31] Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to jillian at transvox.co.uk.
[00:25:44] Until the next time, goodbye.
[00:25:46] Bye-bye.