Transvox - 2024 Highlights from the Archive

[00:00:07] Are you a person that makes resolutions? Are you one of those? Or do you not bother?

[00:00:11] No, because I know I wouldn't keep them. I don't think I've ever really... I have done things like

[00:00:17] started diets on New Year's Day, but I think that's more of anything of just after the Christmas

[00:00:21] period, after a blowout over Christmas. I've never really been one for resolutions. What about you?

[00:00:27] I think what happens is there's too much pressure on resolutions because then you need a lot of

[00:00:31] willpower to keep them through. However, like you say, it's a good gathering point.

[00:00:35] Yeah. And I will be starting a diet on the 6th of January, having said all that, but actually,

[00:00:40] it's really about health and fitness. I'm looking forward to some cold weather as well, because

[00:00:43] Christmas Day was, I have to say, it's the warmest Christmas day ever. I've known I was out there

[00:00:47] in my shorts and t-shirt, sunbathing myself, flip-flops on. Well, it doesn't take you, George,

[00:00:53] as much to get your tops off in the freezing weather. That is true, actually, I must admit.

[00:00:58] It was, but it was warm. It was very strange. I know we're going to be talking about transgender

[00:01:02] issues, but my god, climate issues are even more scary, I think. Yeah, I don't think so.

[00:01:07] Although, didn't one pope once, I don't know if it was this one, it was a couple of popes back

[00:01:12] on their Christmas speech, once said that they felt gender identity or transgender people were

[00:01:17] a bigger threat than global warming. That's right. I'm sure I read that, which made me feel quite

[00:01:22] powerful in a way. Well, okay. Well, let's have a think back over 2024 and think if there are any

[00:01:30] lessons to be learned before we turn our attention to 2025. Any thoughts about 2024?

[00:01:35] I suppose that the lesson to learn is we survived it, and that's always a good thing,

[00:01:39] because I think it's difficult now. Every year seems tricky for our community, doesn't it? It seems to be,

[00:01:44] and this year we were facing two general elections, and then we had the publication of the CAS report.

[00:01:51] It seemed a very difficult time, and the politics was very difficult around those elections,

[00:01:56] because suddenly our 1% of the population was being talked about constantly, and it got even

[00:02:04] more crazy in America. So it was good to have them over, and it was a one-on-all draw for my hopes and

[00:02:11] outcomes in this country, in America. But yeah, it's hard to think of much that was that positive for our

[00:02:19] community though.

[00:02:24] Yeah, I'm the kind of doctor that I hate inequality, unfairness. I worked a lot in sexual health,

[00:02:30] and when I was training it was in the 80s and 90s, when HIV was becoming really paramount, and sexually

[00:02:36] transmitted infections after that. So I worked a lot with that and saw a lot of discrimination there,

[00:02:42] obviously against homosexual men in particular, and also drug users and women in the sex industry.

[00:02:48] And I just hate it. I hate inequality. And then I was working in a GP practice in,

[00:02:53] up in a small valley in Wales. And I suppose that was my kind of, I don't expect it was,

[00:02:59] but it felt like my first transgender patients. And she was saying I'm a mature lady who'd never really

[00:03:05] been able to acknowledge her identity. It was always very hidden. And she asked me to help her,

[00:03:10] and I had no idea about it. No training, no experience, nothing.

[00:03:13] And so I looked into what to do. And what I was supposed to do was refer her to a clinic in London,

[00:03:20] where she had to get the train kind of wearing a dress. She'd never got the train out of Wales,

[00:03:24] and never mind to go to a clinic in London. And so I said, don't worry, I'll do it. I'm a doctor,

[00:03:29] I can, I'm sure I can look this up and learn how to do it. And so as I was looking it up and learning,

[00:03:35] I just came across so much awful, terrible stuff. It was, I was just shocked. And the worst thing was

[00:03:42] that it was my own profession that was dealing out the horribleness, this discrimination, the prejudice,

[00:03:48] the terrible things I was reading was being done by my own profession. And I was just shocked to the

[00:03:53] core. And actually, at the same time, I was, I'm very interested in digital and tech, technology,

[00:03:59] I just love it, always have done. And I was making my own website. And I made some pages on there

[00:04:04] dedicated to what I was learning about transgender healthcare. And that's how it took off, really.

[00:04:09] That's how my kind of work started. A simple couple of pages on a website,

[00:04:14] and a keen interest to learn more about this patient group. So there you go.

[00:04:19] So how would you characterize the difference between things that were going on back then

[00:04:22] and now? Because there are similarities because things are going, pendulum swings backwards and

[00:04:26] forwards. But I guess that was still the time of the real life experience, was it? Was that still

[00:04:30] going on at that stage? Yeah, sure. And that real life experience, and the kind of hoops that people

[00:04:36] were being expected to go through, in order to just simply be themselves, or to live their life as

[00:04:43] themselves, or even just to swap their hormone profile. When I started learning about it, it seemed

[00:04:49] like the most unnatural thing to do in the world to swap someone's hormone profile. But then as I

[00:04:54] learned, I'm like, you're simply like turning off testosterone and replacing it with estrogen, or

[00:04:59] turning off estrogen and replacing it with testosterone. And as I looked into it, I realized, actually,

[00:05:03] it's one of the most simplest things to do. It's just one or two black or white estrogen or

[00:05:08] testosterone. It was really very simple. But the hoops that people were being asked to go through,

[00:05:13] in terms of what have you done to live as a woman? How can you prove to the world that you are a woman?

[00:05:18] What steps have you taken? Who have you told? And then the other awful things like,

[00:05:22] what do you do in the bedroom? What do you watch privately on your computer? And I was like,

[00:05:27] hang on a minute, this is, what's this got to do with anything? And then the other side of it was

[00:05:32] the kind of, this must have come from somewhere. You must be feeling this because you were abused

[00:05:36] as a child or raped in the park. And I'm like, oh my goodness, this is just someone's identity.

[00:05:41] And I was just shocked at what I was reading. And the other thing I realized that it was just at

[00:05:46] that time that the Women Inequality Commission produced their report and they openly said that

[00:05:52] the NHS is failing transgender people. And I was like, now it's been acknowledged.

[00:05:56] Now we'll do something about it.

[00:05:58] We are much more on the cause of, cause of feminism than, than, than people really understand that,

[00:06:04] I think.

[00:06:05] I think if you talk to young people, they're, and the modern generations are going to be so

[00:06:10] much better. I can't, I almost can't wait for them to be the ones in absolute power, if you like.

[00:06:16] But if you speak to the younger generations, they're like, does it not bloody matter?

[00:06:18] Does it matter? Man, woman, trans woman, non-binary person. It doesn't matter. We're just people.

[00:06:25] We're just people. And whatever our identity is, whatever our body organs are, we're just equal.

[00:06:32] And maybe we made a very big mistake many years ago by segregating gender or even making this thing

[00:06:38] called gender. We're just people. And actually, and all people have hormones and those hormone profiles

[00:06:44] sometimes aren't quite right for how you feel and how you want to live your life and how you want your

[00:06:50] body to, to look in the mirror for you and to the outside world. And what's wrong with that?

[00:06:56] Nothing. So I do sometimes feel, I wish we hadn't done that whole gender thing. And then we wouldn't

[00:07:01] be in such a pickle. And then I live in, I like, I spent a lot of time in Spain and then the Spanish

[00:07:06] language is one of those ones where they have mail and field cups and plates and knives and forks.

[00:07:12] And then my old goodness. We've got a male plate of the female car.

[00:07:17] We should not forget about the beauty of diversity and the need for equality. And I think those two

[00:07:25] fundamental things, once you understand that diversity is beautiful and we don't all want to

[00:07:29] be the same, we don't want to be that white, male, cisgender, heterosexual person that you were just

[00:07:35] talking about. And we don't want to be that. I definitely don't want to be that. And then when we

[00:07:40] understand that people are beautifully diverse and beautifully different, and then we should,

[00:07:45] and everybody is equal and everybody should have the equal opportunity to live their life to the

[00:07:50] absolute fullest. And when they go to their grave, they should be able to look back and say,

[00:07:54] I had the best life I could possibly have had. Everybody is beautiful. And that there are minority

[00:08:01] groups, if you like, and they have been, as I said, labeled by the, by the Equality Act.

[00:08:05] And that we, we should be just aiming for embracing everybody as who they are. And I think that's where

[00:08:12] I'm trying to come from when the work that I do in, in increasing visibility, increasing education,

[00:08:18] just the ordinary person walking down the street who doesn't know anybody who lives their life in a

[00:08:23] wheelchair or doesn't know anybody who is trans or doesn't know anybody who's gay apart from that

[00:08:27] funny guy down the street. Do you know what I mean? And it's about bringing that normality,

[00:08:31] ordinary, and into the, into everyday lives. And that's what my work has been about, really.

[00:08:37] We're both agreeing. It's just how we get there. You see, my view is that you have to have leaders,

[00:08:40] you have to shape the, you have to shape the world, you have to shape the community,

[00:08:43] you have to have people that build a framework to allow that to happen.

[00:08:46] And I think showing people, ordinary trans people, is really important. They're not scary,

[00:08:52] they're just beautiful people like everybody else. And I think if we portray this vulnerability,

[00:08:57] vulnerability. And if you see NHS protocols and place protocols, education protocols,

[00:09:03] protect the vulnerable. And I'm like, they're not, maybe some of them are vulnerable.

[00:09:09] And maybe some cis people are vulnerable. And maybe some heterosexual people and homosexual

[00:09:13] people and black people and white people are vulnerable. But don't label trans people as vulnerable.

[00:09:18] But they are, there may be some that are vulnerable, but it's not because they're trans.

[00:09:23] It's because the world doesn't yet accept trans people fully. And the other...

[00:09:28] Can I jump in there? Because I think that's quite interesting. Two things. One, which is that

[00:09:32] we have this image of trans people, usually, as you say, trans women. And I think we, we forget that

[00:09:38] actually, there's a, I think the majority now is trans mask. And we, there isn't the fuss about that.

[00:09:43] There isn't, I know where the feminists just say they're misguided and that's just even more hateful

[00:09:47] argument than anything else really. But we forget that. And we also forget the non-binary community as well.

[00:09:53] Come back to non-binary issues as well, if you don't mind. But I think that's really important to say.

[00:09:57] And I like what you're saying there. I always say that we're not vulnerable. We're not special.

[00:10:01] We're a minority community and that's a different thing. And I think we have to be careful not to

[00:10:05] characterize ourselves as a vulnerable community. We are a minority community and that's it. And some

[00:10:10] of us are loud antsy and not the slightest bit vulnerable. And as you say, some people are,

[00:10:15] but we don't want to be special. I just want to live a life, have a great relationship,

[00:10:19] go on holidays, eat cake. They just want to live a normal life, I'm guessing.

[00:10:22] They just, well, don't we all? And that's the thing. We just all want to live our best life.

[00:10:29] And to persecute or be prejudiced or biased towards somebody because of their identity,

[00:10:36] if you do it for long enough, they hurt inside. And when you hurt inside, your mental health suffers,

[00:10:44] and your psychological health suffers, and your social ability suffers. And eventually it just goes

[00:10:51] down. And so the people that we see who have poor mental health or can't integrate into social

[00:10:57] society in the way that they've had the ability to do, it's because they've been battered for so long,

[00:11:03] ignored for so long, suppressed for so long.

[00:11:05] What's your message for the trans community?

[00:11:07] I think my message to the trans community is that I have never worked with a nicer, happier, better

[00:11:19] group of patients. If I put my doctor's hat on for a minute in the whole of my career,

[00:11:25] I've absolutely loved the people that I've met, that I've worked with. So undemanding, so humble,

[00:11:32] thankful. And in many ways, I feel sad that you have to be humble and so grateful for the tiniest

[00:11:38] bit of love or care that you're offered. And so undemanding. And I'm sorry that you're so

[00:11:43] undemanding. I want you to be more demanding and get what you deserve and get what you should have.

[00:11:48] But honestly, I've never worked with a better group of people. It really made my,

[00:11:53] my, the end of my career absolutely so rewarding. And just, I think, just keep,

[00:11:59] I don't say keep fighting, just keep on at achieving what you deserve, which is the same as

[00:12:07] what everybody else deserves for their health and for their life and their wellbeing, which is just to

[00:12:13] live your best life. You totally deserve it. You're totally beautiful. And just keep asking,

[00:12:19] because it's not a lot to ask for.

[00:12:21] Yeah. And the other thing that we talked about just briefly, and I'm just conscious of your time,

[00:12:24] because I've seen it rocketing past night. This is our 25 minute episode. This might be episode

[00:12:28] three. We didn't talk enough about non-binary people. I just wonder whether we say a few

[00:12:32] things. I often think the problem with that term is that it's not, it's neither, neither this nor

[00:12:36] that. It, it almost needs its own word. The wordsmiths need to create something, I think. I

[00:12:42] just wonder what your thoughts are on non-binary issues. Because I think they have a really awful

[00:12:48] place because at least we get victimized and abused and don't get any treatment. But that's invisible,

[00:12:55] aren't they? And it just strikes me that we need to raise the temperature on that for those people

[00:12:59] as well.

[00:13:00] Yeah. In many ways, they're not, that group of people aren't bullied as much as the trans women

[00:13:05] that we talked about. Trans women get bullied most, I feel. But like you said earlier, trans men are

[00:13:09] kind of ignored and they're just like, oh, that's stupid. If you want to do, if you want to negate your

[00:13:13] beautiful femininity, be a trans man, you're so stupid.

[00:13:16] Have all that power and wealth.

[00:13:17] Yeah, exactly. And then non-binary people are a bit scared, people are a bit not understanding.

[00:13:22] Some people are like, look, can't you just shut up for minutes while we just get used to the fact

[00:13:26] that you switch from one to the other. I can't cope with that in the middle bit. But you're right.

[00:13:31] And actually, it just makes me think that I've always, I hate boxes. I like, I hate saying gay

[00:13:36] people or homosexual people, even though I've said it a few times. I just think, just let everyone just be

[00:13:42] who they are. Why do we need all these labels? Are they helpful? Are they a hindrance? And I think in

[00:13:48] the future, with young people particularly, they'll be like, nothing to do with you. Just let me be.

[00:13:54] I don't need to tell you whether I'm male or female or non-binary or both or somewhere in the middle.

[00:13:59] Tomorrow I'm going to feel slightly different to the way I do today. Just absolutely nothing to do

[00:14:03] with you kind of thing. And I'm looking forward to that time. But in the meantime, we do need to

[00:14:08] understand gender identity better. And the fact that gender identity isn't one or the other.

[00:14:16] It's a whole spectrum. And I've seen the other beautiful thing that I've seen is trans, for

[00:14:21] example, trans women coming to me saying, I'm trans women, I'm female. And then a little way into

[00:14:25] their journey, they're like, do you know what? I still got a little bit of that masculinity to me

[00:14:31] that I'm missing a little bit. And everyone's like, oh my God, does that mean you're not trans?

[00:14:34] Oh my God. But it's like, oh, it's just a little bit further down the spectrum. And then in a few

[00:14:38] months time, you might feel a little bit differently. What's wrong with that? Nothing. So I hate these

[00:14:44] kind of labels, these boxes. Let's just make gender identities, sexuality, personality,

[00:14:50] all of those things. Let's just let us be fluid. Let us be who we are. And it might be different today

[00:14:55] and tomorrow. But just acceptance is what we need.

[00:15:00] On that note, I can't disagree with you anymore. So I'm just going to just surrender now and say,

[00:15:06] it's Helen rules. And that's absolutely fine. So look, thank you for spending so much time with us

[00:15:10] today. Maybe you can come back and record episode four with us sometime. I'd love that.

[00:15:15] I would love to. Let's put a date in the diary for next year, and we'll do that for sure.

[00:15:19] Thank you so much for having me on. I've really enjoyed chatting to you.

[00:15:22] Pleasure. You too.

[00:15:27] There needed to be a resource out there that just helped people when they're just starting to think

[00:15:32] about surgery, could be in their future, and they want to just have a clear overview of the options

[00:15:40] and the pros and cons to get them started. And so that's how I came to write the book,

[00:15:45] which is called Gender Confirmation Surgery, Guide for Trans and Non-Binary People. And it's a

[00:15:50] introduction to the main confirmation surgeries and just, yeah, the pros and cons. It's a starter.

[00:15:58] It's a place to start. It's not thorough kind of everything you'd need to know under the sun,

[00:16:03] because really I was finding when I was starting to look at surgery, I could find resources like that

[00:16:09] online and they were overwhelming to me. There was just too much information coming at me,

[00:16:14] too much for me to take in. And so that's why I kind of thought there needs to be something that is

[00:16:19] reliable, but also just stage one to thinking about it.

[00:16:24] So who is it for, would you say?

[00:16:27] Well, definitely for anyone who thinks surgery might be in their future.

[00:16:33] It doesn't have to be something that you're sure about yet. The book is definitely not

[00:16:40] implying that surgery is what all trans and non-binary people do. And it starts with a chapter which is

[00:16:47] just thinking about surgery. So if you're unsure, if you're thinking one of the surgeries might be

[00:16:52] right for you, but you don't feel 100% yet, there's an exercise in there for just teasing out for yourself

[00:16:59] to help you kind of sift through your thoughts. What do I want? What am I hoping for? What do I find

[00:17:06] difficult about this part of my body or that part of my body? And can surgery actually give me the thing

[00:17:12] that I want? Because it's very easy maybe to think. As certainly as I, I sort of dived into my transition

[00:17:20] and just sort of head down and just ploughed forward. And it was right for me, but I wasn't

[00:17:28] stopping very long to sort of really think about what I needed and wanted all the time. And I've

[00:17:34] certainly met other people who maybe rushed a little bit too fast and didn't have the time and space to

[00:17:40] think about what they wanted. And so surgeries has a lot of options. It's not always clear what those

[00:17:47] options are, but it can't solve everything either. It can't get necessarily solve everything that you

[00:17:53] find difficult about your body. It can't make you taller. Sorry? It can't make you taller.

[00:17:58] It can't make you taller. No. So I like the fact that you've got a sort of a thoughtful thing around

[00:18:06] whether surgery is right for you, because I think there is a risk with surgery and I've seen it

[00:18:11] on many programs and as a therapist myself, people get easily addicted to things and people can get

[00:18:17] addicted to surgeries, can't they? There's a sort of pursuit of something which can be, I guess,

[00:18:24] a risk which has to be mitigated in a way. Yeah. And I would hope that any surgeon that somebody

[00:18:32] goes for a consultation with would spend time talking to the prospective patient about what their hopes are

[00:18:40] for the surgery and whether that surgery itself can deliver that. But you don't get very long in a

[00:18:47] consultation. Maybe 45 minutes an hour. Wow, that's a long one. Yeah. Yeah. You know, maybe that,

[00:18:54] but maybe much less. And then maybe also you've been on the waiting list for several years to get to that

[00:18:59] point to have a consultation and you might have a lot of questions. You might also feel a lot of pressure

[00:19:05] on yourself to like, I've got to convince this surgeon that this is right for me because I'm never going to

[00:19:10] go back on the waiting list. So that's where like, I would always advocate, just spend time with

[00:19:17] yourself thinking about what you really need, what this surgery is going to give you, what it's going

[00:19:23] to affect in your social life, what it might affect in your sex life, what it's going to affect how you

[00:19:27] visualize your body and also really think about what it's not going to give you. And then just, yeah,

[00:19:33] if you can go in with those kind of realistic expectations of like, yeah, this surgery is right for

[00:19:37] me, but I also recognize it's not going to solve everything, then that can, that's a better

[00:19:43] chance that you're happy with the results. Hi. Yeah, I'm Dee. I use they learn pronouns and I am

[00:19:59] doing really good. I am a fostering recruitment officer from Southampton City Council and hopefully

[00:20:04] here to do a little bit of chatting about what that means and supporting people with kind of

[00:20:08] understanding the process of being assessed for foster care a bit more today. Great. And Carly, say hi.

[00:20:14] Hi, I'm Carly Arnold and I am the service lead for the fostering service in Southampton.

[00:20:22] So I manage the foster carers and the fostering team who look after kind of all of our vulnerable

[00:20:29] children in Southampton. Fantastic. Now, when you first started chatting, I was really quite,

[00:20:36] it hadn't crossed my imagination because I'm a little bit older than, you know, that fostering and

[00:20:41] adoption would be suitable, relevant, possible, practical for trans people, never mind the wider

[00:20:46] queer community. So when we first chatted about it, it sort of really opened my eyes. And so firstly,

[00:20:54] let's talk a little bit about fostering and adoption generally. And then let's talk a little bit about

[00:20:59] this world and what the specific challenges or pitfalls might be.

[00:21:03] So, I mean, what is the difference between a foster parent and an adoptive parent, for example,

[00:21:09] and why might you want to do it?

[00:21:12] I can answer that one, Dee. So obviously, so fostering is when we assess and have carers that work for the

[00:21:32] children, they support us in caring for those children. So Southampton City Council hold kind of parental

[00:21:42] responsibility for those children. Whereas if you were to adopt a child, the parental responsibility

[00:21:50] for those children would kind of transfer to those adopters. So they would then become that child's

[00:21:58] parents, if you like. And so that's kind of the difference, I suppose, between kind of fostering

[00:22:04] and adoption. And so we do have an adoption service in Southampton, and I don't manage that service as

[00:22:11] such. And so my kind of expertise around around the fostering aspect.

[00:22:17] I think also in an interesting way, kind of linking on to that point about self-actualization and self-identity,

[00:22:23] there's a really interesting strength, I think, that the trans community have in that we have often taken a

[00:22:30] very, very long process and a lot of deep self-reflection about our sense of self-identity.

[00:22:34] And we're often in, you know, certain places where actually we've kind of been there, done that and

[00:22:41] really kind of developed skills and strengths in having to do a lot of that work already that other

[00:22:47] people may not have ever encountered before. And it could be a really big strength for supporting

[00:22:52] young people in care who also need kind of support and development of their own sense of self and sense

[00:22:57] of identity and confidence in their lives. So I think that's a really interesting interplay that trans

[00:23:03] people have a unique perspective on.

[00:23:13] I think you wanted to kick the ball off by talking a little bit about trans-manicalization

[00:23:21] and some things around there. And also, I know we talk too infrequently about trans mask issues as

[00:23:28] well. So I don't know if there was something there you wanted to cover off. I can't remember what you

[00:23:31] said last time, but I'm sure as we get chatting, we'll be into all sorts of different issues. But

[00:23:36] where do you stand on trans-medicalization? What was your thought process there?

[00:23:44] Yeah, so I think it's probably a nice idea to summarize what trans-medicalization means.

[00:23:52] So basically, it's the idea that it's very much steeped in kind of

[00:23:59] cisgender ideals of what a man and a woman should look like. So there's this idea that trans people,

[00:24:12] in order to be actually legitimately 100% trans, that they have to either want or go through

[00:24:21] medical transition. And some people might call that full medical transition, where it's both top surgery

[00:24:29] and bottom surgery, and possibly middle surgery. So stuff like facial feminization and things like that.

[00:24:37] So there's a cohort of cisgender people, but also trans people as well, who are gatekeeping

[00:24:45] trans community, trans euphoria, trans joy for people who either can't access medical transition or

[00:24:54] don't want to in the first place. And I think that's pants. Basically, I feel like if trans and gender

[00:25:04] diverse people, if we've decided looking at colonial ideas of the gender binary is not for us,

[00:25:12] or what it is for us, but in our own certain roundabout, wiggly squiggly way, to then gatekeep

[00:25:20] other people away from that liberatory joy is, yeah, poor form.

[00:25:28] It's a peculiar argument, isn't it? Because I suppose, I mean, I came to this argument

[00:25:38] many, many years ago, because we were all called transsexuals in those days, because we didn't have

[00:25:43] the concept of transgenderism at that stage, perhaps. And so what happened was we had people who were

[00:25:50] having what we called, I'm doing the bunny ears at the moment, sex changes. And we were basically having

[00:25:55] people who were going through the operative processes. And, and of course, what happened

[00:26:00] is, was a massive kickback, because the government were then, of the day, were sort of fighting the

[00:26:04] case, why you would have all these people having sex changes, as it was said in the day, rather than

[00:26:10] funding cancer treatments. And so that age old argument came into practice. And so, and so, you know,

[00:26:18] it is a quite an interesting thing that the reason that we veered away from medicalization was this

[00:26:22] idea that we couldn't afford to do it, because actually the health budget for all these trans

[00:26:26] people, all, you know, there was going to be this wave of crashing wave of people who are going to

[00:26:31] want sex, sex changes, as it was said in the day. Of course, we never talked about trans men in those

[00:26:36] days, we only talked about trans women. That's where all the headlines are. And, and so I find it quite

[00:26:42] odd that in a sense that we, we were moved away from medicalization. Because actually going to be

[00:26:51] having a sort of a gender ideology and such like was quite convenient financially for the National

[00:26:55] Health Service at the time. But it's quite interesting that it's coming back that way now.

[00:26:59] But, but I'm fascinated by this idea that you said that it's coming from the trans community as well.

[00:27:03] So I often find that quite perplexing. So can you explore that a bit more?

[00:27:09] Yes. So I think there's a certain amount of gate, gatekeeping in queer and trans communities,

[00:27:16] spaces around legitimacy of queerness and transness, as if we need to do some tick box exercise in order

[00:27:32] for us to be queer enough or trans enough. And I think that's where it trips up a lot of people,

[00:27:40] people are being barred from community, but then are they communities that you want to be part of if,

[00:27:50] if, if, if they're exclusionary anyways. Yeah, I don't know. I find in queer spaces that I've been

[00:27:59] part of, there is still a hierarchy of gay men being the, the ideal queer person.

[00:28:12] You know, perhaps married with children. And there's still a hierarchy there and an idealism

[00:28:20] in some, in some spaces and for some queer people around what is an acceptable queer face.

[00:28:29] And that is around activism as well, you know, fighting for marriage equality and stuff like that.

[00:28:37] And absolutely, that's an important issue. But also, why, why would queer people say,

[00:28:45] say people who are polyamorous or asexual and stuff like that fight for the right to get married in a

[00:28:53] very, uh, heterosexual manner?

[00:29:00] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to

[00:29:06] make contact with us, you can contact us at Jillian at transvox.co.uk and all of our money goes to our

[00:29:14] nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you

[00:29:20] chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and

[00:29:26] counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK.

[00:29:32] An amazing charity doing some amazing work, really important. So please, if you can give.

[00:29:38] Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.

[00:29:43] And, uh, but as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we

[00:29:47] love to help the people who help us. Uh, again, if you've got ideas for, um, the show, things you'd

[00:29:52] like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or, um, brickbats, feel free to send it all in to

[00:29:58] Jillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.

[00:30:04] Bye-bye.

[00:30:05] Bye-bye.

[00:30:05] Thank you.