Transvox - Uniting for Trans Rights: Meeting Jude Guaitamacchi of Trans Solidarity Alliance

[00:00:08] Hi and welcome back to Transvox and it's my joy today to have not one but two windows open in front of me and Jenny is here but also delighted to be joined by Jude. Hi Jude. Hello. And not just any Jude, but let me just have a run up at this. So June Guaitamacchi, how's that? That was perfect pronunciation. Years have been in Italy, have not been wasted. I can hear Italians wincing all over the world.

[00:00:37] And Jude's from effectively the Trans Solidarity Alliance, which is an amazing organization that's been set up to campaign, to advocate on our behalf, to do some amazing work and most notably, created a mass lobby on 25th of June at Westminster, which I think June's going to talk to us all about. And we'll get into the nuts and bolts of it if that's all right. But first of all, Jude, tell us a bit about yourself.

[00:01:02] Jude Guaitamacchi, otherwise known as Becoming Jude on social media. My pronouns are they, them. I am a trans and non-binary keynote speaker, an award-winning campaigner, and I'm the founder of the Trans Solidarity Alliance. I've had about over 12 years experience of public speaking. So I've been traveling all corners of the planet, the world, delivering keynotes. Also do a lot of work online. But I'm very much involved with training organizations on LGBTQ plus and gender.

[00:01:31] And I've been working on LGBTQ plus and gender diversity awareness. I've had an extensive journey with my mental health as well, which I also incorporate into my work. And as well as working with organizations, I've been a campaigner for many years. So I've been behind some quite impactful trans solidarity campaigns. I was one of the organizers of the L with the T campaign back in 2018.

[00:01:56] And that was originally set up in response to the anti-trans group that disrupted the front of the Pride in London march. And we initiated this campaign, working with cis lesbians to amplify this message of support and solidarity for trans people to reflect that actually the majority of lesbians support and are allies. And it was wonderful to see that kind of snowball because all of a sudden we were seeing other groups form all over the world.

[00:02:25] And the hashtag actually went viral when we marched at the front of Pride in London in 2019. So we managed to really create this concept, this campaign that people could stand behind. So it proved that you could create something and you could hand that over to allies and allies would run with it. And they very much did just that. And then we saw the emergence of all these other hashtags with the T groups. And it was really interesting to watch because it inspired a lot of my activism, which is very much centered around solidarity.

[00:02:54] A lot of it positivity as well, the amplification of support and love for trans people online. There was the trans people are loved, but then the trans youth are loved campaign last year, where I believe we got over 60 celebrities to amplify messages of solidarity for trans youth at a time where trans youth were being stripped of their health care. We had the draft guidance that was implemented into education. So it was quite a tough time.

[00:03:19] And what we did is we made sure that we really amplified as much positivity as we could for them. I've also been involved in Trans Secret Santa, which again is trans youth centered. And of course, yeah, the Trans Solidarity Alliance was set up as an organization that could work in partnership with cis allies to drive positive change for trans people in the UK, at least try to. So that's my work. Fantastic. And what was behind the idea of Trans Solidarity Alliance when you set that up or part of that?

[00:03:48] Well, it stemmed from years of campaigning really and recognizing that lots of people wanted to support the trans community. And actually by creating one campaign, it would inspire another, for example, L with a T inspired G with a T, B with a T. There was D with a T, Pride with a T. But something I recognize is that a lot of these groups were their own groups doing the same thing. And I thought, wouldn't it be great if we had a platform for all of these groups, like a way of bringing more people together to work together?

[00:04:16] And so the Trans Solidarity Alliance was an idea that I came up with in 2019. And of course, by 2020, COVID hit. And therefore, I took a few years to out to focus on myself. But also, I didn't really pick up the Trans Solidarity Alliance idea again until I met my lovely friend, Nancy Kelly, who I don't know if you're aware, has done a lot of work in the space of support and solidarity for trans people.

[00:04:46] And I just had this idea of, I remember talking to her, of launching what would be this organization. And now we've got an incredible team. And I have to really, I have to credit them because they are working around the clock. They really are working really hard. And we're a trans-led organization, but we are also made up of volunteers, people giving their time. A lot of trans people giving their time to some of our initiatives. So final question for me before I let Jenny join in, in more of a general conversation.

[00:05:16] Just tell us about the event on the 25th, because actually, it's really important that we get that information out, get those details out. Let's make sure we give a suitable amount of time to that. Yeah. So we've also launched a political engagement program. We've been hosting briefings in Parliament for just over a year.

[00:05:35] And those briefings consist of trans experts informing politicians on issues affecting our community, such as trans healthcare, trans youth and education, hate crime, conversion practice. And we've been doing that for a period of time. We've hosted five briefings now. So we've been directly working in Parliament. And the mass lobby day is taking place on Wednesday between one until four in Westminster in Parliament.

[00:06:02] A few people have thought it's a protest outside Parliament. It's not. So a mass lobby is where lots of people contact their MP and book a meeting in Westminster all in the same day. So about an issue that they care about. In this case, we've asked people to contact them with regards to the EHRC draft guidance. So the idea is that they meet with their politician and they demand that they support and protect the rights of trans people.

[00:06:31] But the more of us that do that, the more people that book in those meetings with their MP, the louder we become and the harder we are to ignore. So the idea is that we create this big moment that really puts this issue on the map and also demonstrates the fact that the majority of people in this country support trans rights, which is the case. And the mass lobby is really about making those requests from our politicians, asking them to protect and support trans people.

[00:06:57] And so far, we've got over a thousand signups, which is enormous. It will be. It's very likely to be the biggest QBT plus mass lobby day since at least the late 80s when there was a mass lobby in response to Section 28. But it could also be the biggest in history. We don't know yet. It depends how many people attend. And what we want to do is encourage people to attend. So some people will have written to their MP and not heard back or perhaps their MP declined.

[00:07:27] But what they can do is they can still turn up and meet another politician, another MP. And that's something called green carding. We're encouraging everyone to attend, regardless of whether or not they've got a response. You said sign up. How do we do that? So in order to sign up, you can go through our website. All the information is there. www.transsolidarityalliance.com. There's on the front page, you can navigate to join the lobby and it will take you onto a page.

[00:07:56] And all the information you need to know is there, including a template for a letter to your MP. So all the information is included. What you need to know, we've also got, we have a small pot of money for those that can't afford to travel to Westminster. So we can also support travel. But even because we're quite short on time, it's taking place in five days. So even if people don't sign up, they can also just attend.

[00:08:23] So signing up isn't necessary, but it's just an easier way of going through the process. So if I just want to rock up and, you know, would I be able to get in or would I just be floating around outside looking helpless? So we'll have a check-in point. So on Parliament Square, look out because there will be a place where people will convene, come to and from. Because what we have is a team on the ground that will be facilitating the process of getting people into Parliament.

[00:08:50] We're letting everybody know not to wear logos or bring flags. There's a security that you have to go to get into Parliament. And unfortunately, they will turn anyone away that's wearing sort of colours and big logos. So we encourage people to dress down. This is really about presence. And it's really about being in that space, taking up that space and interacting with our politicians. People will be escorted onto the premises and supported through the process. And that's really what we're there to do.

[00:09:19] We're there to facilitate this process for people. And how do people stay safe? What advice would you have for trans people turning up other than the normal guidance? Yeah, come straight. There will be people in high vises. Look out for them. There will be people there on the ground there to support, to advise, to answer questions. So that's probably the best way to understand how to stay safe. There'll be lots of us as well. So I'm thinking that strength in numbers, sticking together.

[00:09:49] And if you want to bring somebody, please do. But really, this is just about we want to make the process as smooth as possible. But depending on numbers, it might be quite a chaotic day getting people. But we are going to be working people through in and out of parliament and that kind of thing. And we will be on hand to answer questions. So just find one of us and ask us anything you want to know. So any other sort of questions on the practical level before you? Yeah, no, but I think it's absolutely amazing.

[00:10:18] An organisation like yours, we've talked before, haven't we, Jill, about we're fractured as a community. And Tump's wanted to pull this together. And this seems like a great platform. Mass lobbies are brilliant and really effective. And you do really feel that you're taking part in democracy and influencing. I've done them in the past. All that advice is there. It can be quite a longish day at times because it's quite slow, isn't it? I think, is that right? Generally getting through the security. And sometimes, I don't know if that's arranged, sometimes groups of MPs will meet in committee rooms.

[00:10:46] Is that maybe what would happen? So you might not meet with your MP, I think, as you said. Yeah. But I do think, I mean, you said you've got some stewards and things. You're not expecting any anti-marches or anything. Because it's not a big protest, is it, from what you're describing? It's a gathering on college green type thing. And then people will walk their way through. So, yeah, it sounds like I wouldn't have, hopefully you wouldn't get much in the way of counter-protesting or anything on that. Absolutely. Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:16] You've got to think, we're in the parliamentary space. That's very unlikely to happen within that space. And, of course, if anything does happen, we've discussed various scenarios and potential concerns. But we believe that that will be managed. And actually, it's very unlikely that we're going to see, say, a protest. No. It's not guaranteed. But I'd say it's unlikely considering the nature of what we're doing. And on a weekday, that's, again, less likely. Just in terms of your organisation, it's a really impressive website.

[00:11:44] I've just been working through some great advice for the day on there. Is there any way or have you thought about that organisations can affiliate to Trans Solidarity Alliance? As part of the trade union movement, we do that quite a bit. We affiliate with campaigns that we support. Have you had any thought about that? So, yeah, we're working with quite a few of the organisations, trans prides, that are trans-led as well, especially. So, quite a lot of the LGBT plus slash trans organisations are getting involved and supporting.

[00:12:14] We would have loved to have done more of a partnership, but there was a lack of time to be able to actually do something like that. So, what we did instead is that we offered, we said, look, be a part of it. Be a part of it with us. Come and support. And so, that's what it's looking like. But, of course, what I like about what we're doing is that we're very much bringing people together at a time that's really needed. And we're doing something collectively, which you mentioned community being fractured.

[00:12:43] You mentioned that there is a lot of difficulty for us right now. And I think that something like this is just such a great way of bringing us together and working towards a shared goal. And actually in the space that it needs to happen, to take place. Sometimes we can feel so powerless because of everything that's going on, thinking that we don't have any, we can't have an impact.

[00:13:08] But actually, the more of us there are, the louder and the more that we put pressure on the government to make the kind of change that we need to see. And that's really where change is made. So, I believe that actions such as these need to be where a lot of our effort and attention is focused. And that was part of the reason that we launched our political engagement program, because we recognize that very rarely are our voices ever brought to the table.

[00:13:36] When is a trans person ever included around the discussion of the issues affecting us? Even in the Supreme Court ruling, there wasn't a trans person present. All of these decisions are being made without us. And so what we want to do is we want to start bringing trans voices into that space, ensure that they are being heard. I don't know if you've seen, but Kate Nash will also be joining us on the day as well. And we're so grateful. I personally thought her new song, I don't know if you've heard it, Germ, was phenomenal. It's an educational resource, if anything.

[00:14:06] She's included statistics in a song. She's talking about the anti-trans movement and she's educating people. And I was so blown away by such a creative way of demonstrating allyship. But she's also supporting the mass lobby on the day, which I think is great too, because what we need is we need those bigger public figures coming along and putting a spotlight on what's going on. Because what we want to do is we want to send a very solid message to people, which is that we, that people support trans rights. We want to see change.

[00:14:35] And actually, we're not going anywhere. Events such as these, we will continue to organise and facilitate them. This is the very beginning of a long and potentially difficult journey, but I'm confident that we can make a difference. If there's nothing that this terrible Supreme Court judgment hasn't done, it has brought, feels like it's bringing us more together as a community. And it does feel, first time, I feel like I've got some hope. You talked about big names.

[00:15:02] Have you had any indications with your political engagement with MPs? Or do you have people that you've committed to support what we're looking for? I know of one or two MPs that have shown some solidarity with our cause, but you don't often hear a lot from them. So have we had any indication yet? You know, what was, we launched our political engagement programme in 2000, in 2024, very early 2024. That was our first briefing.

[00:15:30] And we had a few MPs in the room, if we were lucky. Our last briefing, which was actually on the Supreme Court ruling. So we brought in legal experts to talk on the Supreme Court ruling and what that meant for our community. And we had over 60 people in the room. Wow, good. That was the biggest briefing I'd seen that we'd ever had, really. And that showed me that there is more, there's a want to understand, there is a want to support. And that gave me so much hope.

[00:16:00] And of course, yes, we are seeing MPs speak up. The obvious is Nadia Whittem. She's honestly just such an incredible ally. But we're also seeing people in the room that we wouldn't necessarily expect and attendance from certain MPs that we wouldn't necessarily expect. Interesting. And is that cross-party? Is this cross-party support, which is what we need? Certainly two major parties haven't been great recently on this, but to say the least.

[00:16:26] But we're seeing people that may be thinking, even if they've not been advocates, maybe on just the free speech rights of this, about the human rights aspect of it. Is that what you're seeing some engagement on when you said there were some surprising people there? And that's the thing. We've always operated on very much a cross-party position. We've never positioned ourselves politically.

[00:16:47] So what we're interested in is really to engage people and try and to empower them as much as we can to where we need them to be so they can better advocate for our community. So, yeah, we've seen engagement from people that we wouldn't necessarily expect. And I think that's really positive. That's, yeah, it's a win. It's definitely a win. And that's what we want to do. We've already got allies. But what we want to do is have more of them in the political space. And that's currently what we're working on.

[00:17:15] So for people who are doubtful about these sorts of processes, this sort of campaigning advocacy and such like, it's important that we actually represent their views as well. People say it's just a lot of noise. Nothing happens. Nothing changes. So tell us why this sort of campaigning works. And because not everyone's got to get there on the day. And it's like that. It's exclusive as well, isn't it? So how do other people help this cause if they can't make it, if it's worth the effort, if that makes sense?

[00:17:44] There's two different questions mixed in there, Jude. But you know where I'm coming from. I understand that there's scepticism. I also understand that people feel really disencouraged and let down and don't want anything to do with politicians. That there are people in our community that don't see this kind of thing as necessarily effective. And I completely understand.

[00:18:05] I believe that there are many different ways that we can conduct our activism, whether that be taking to the streets and protesting, whether that be educating people and moving them along their journey, whether that be representing trans people on our screens or even using social media as a tool. There are so many ways we can do it. And I believe that every method has its place. I don't think that one is more important than the other.

[00:18:34] And so that's my personal feeling when it comes to this kind of work. But I do see the value in making noise in the political space. I really do. And it wasn't necessarily something that I had ever set out to do, quite honestly. All of my campaigns were more along the lines of protesting. And I've also been involved in direct action and lots of different kind of other methods.

[00:19:00] But more than ever, and if you think back to, you know, a lot of the lobbying that was done around Section 28, how was set up in the early days and people lobbying and people frowned upon that. There were people in the community that frowned upon that method. And yet actually directly working in that space and pushing for change at a government level is exactly what we need to see. And just I can't stress enough that I just I think we need to be in the center of this in some way.

[00:19:29] And so the more of us that can be there, the better. And ways that people can support if they can't make it. Again, the amplification of this event is really important. So sharing this online, encouraging others that can make it to perhaps attend. But just amplifying it as much as possible is what we're really hoping to do. And the thing about it is we very rarely make the mainstream news, right? We see so much negativity.

[00:19:53] There's a very one-sided narrative, very much the kind of extremist right wing rhetoric that spreads out to the minds. Of people across the country. And actually, if we can amplify this enough, then perhaps we can get out a message that is more in support of our community rather than the other way around. I think that's what we need to see more of, quite honestly. And sometimes you can't help. You can't be there.

[00:20:22] You can't physically get there for whatever reason. And there are lots of trans organizations who aren't going. They need funding. We can always put hands in our pockets to help our colleagues in this area. And that's really important as well. Because it's often been said that it's actually quite effortful being an advocate. Yeah, I think you recognize that, Jude, that you do. Because I find it difficult. As I say, long-time campaigner, because I'm an old-fashioned trade unionist, I guess, from way back. And I've been involved in those sort of campaigns.

[00:20:49] And I think what I'm finding so difficult about this, and maybe it's something about the trans and non-binary experience. And I'm not saying other campaigns. It's also, at the same time, it's so hard, personally. I'm sure you have the same. We speak to a lot of people in the work we do. And I've not come across anybody in our community that's not the very best just exhausted by it. The very worst really struggling with it. And day to day, the amount of times I've tried to avoid the news, read something on the BBC website, my mood's gone down.

[00:21:18] And it's doing things to me, like talking to Jill on the podcast, being able to do activism, feel like, that can lift her spirits. And I think it's right. But you do give a piece of yourself up, right? I mean, I think in an ideal life, I would be living as a woman and wouldn't be necessarily involved in this activism. Because that's really what I'd like to do. But that's not a lot. But I do think that's right. And is that the case? Because it sounds like you've been an activist for a long time, Jude. Is it? Have you seen if you had those ups and downs, I presume? Yeah.

[00:21:48] Yeah, absolutely. The first year of my transition is when we organised Elle with a T. It was like, go straight away. And that was 2017, 2018. And that year, as my best friend has informed me, was when things really started amping up with the anti-trans movement. And she just said, you almost transitioned at the worst time because it's when it all started. And I was never, I wasn't really an activist before that. I was a mental health advocate. I've always been a huge empath.

[00:22:18] But I just almost fell into it. And being a part of a community as well that were collectively feeling all of this. And obviously friends of mine. And I just got really pulled into it, which of course has its pros and cons. Like on the one hand, you feel like you're doing something. You're fighting against it. And you're in a movement. And how can you not be involved with this? It's interesting because I feel that on the one hand,

[00:22:45] I have become my true self more than ever. I feel more connected to myself than I ever have. And yet I feel so inhuman at the same time. Like I've lost my sense of self through this because it can become all consuming. It can take over your life. All of a sudden you're still working at 10 o'clock at night and you're up at six o'clock in the morning. And this isn't paid work. This is campaigning, emailing, organizing. Like there is so much that goes on behind the scenes.

[00:23:13] And of course, yeah, time to have a relationship or friendships or a social life just all goes out of the window. And over the years, I've really recognized that. And also the burnouts as well. What this costs mental health wise as someone that's already got history with difficulties with my mental health, addiction, various other things. Like this can really hammer that hard. And of course, I've got a presence online, right? So the stuff that I get online is a very visible trans advocate.

[00:23:41] Hundreds of anti-trans comments when you see them, you can't unsee them. And all of that together can be really taxing. And I honestly, but I struggle with the injustice. I'm just somebody that really feels the injustice very deeply and almost probably carry more than what on my shoulders. Like I carry all of the collective trauma on my shoulders sometimes, which I know isn't my responsibility. But equally, I don't know how not to, if that makes sense. But it's interesting you say that.

[00:24:09] And a lot of people talk about this, but they also, we don't talk enough about the other side, which is the euphoria that comes from the process, isn't it? And there's been some recent research done around gender euphoria. It's one of the challenges in the Cass report, I believe. But it's significant, isn't it? And we have to remember this. We have to keep talking about it because otherwise it's just a grim and relentless treadmill, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and there is. I live for this work as well. Right? So as much as it's all-consuming, I also, it's who I am.

[00:24:39] And yeah, and when you feel like you're a part of something and you're pushing for change, and there are those moments where, really incredible moments where you think, wow, look at what's happened. Look who we've managed to bring together. The hard work pays off and you have moments of joy and a feeling of real accomplishment. And also a sense of community as well. I'm so fortunate. The Trans Solidarity Alliance has just blossomed by itself. So we've got just, I can't tell you, like, it's the team.

[00:25:07] I was the creator of the idea that could bring together the team. But honestly, it's the entire Trans Solidarity Alliance team that have been able to put this together. And me on my own, I wouldn't have the first clue. And I wouldn't even know where to start with something like this. They have honestly worked so hard. And we work so well together as well, which is really wonderful. And we've developed a really nice chosen family relationship. And it's just so nice. We even have a funny animals group.

[00:25:33] This is our timeout group where we just send each other, like, cute animal videos and just bring each other a bit of joy. All of them are funny cats. I think that's so right there, Joel. You talk about the positivity and euphoria about it. Yeah, in my darkest days, I wouldn't have it any other way. And there is, you know, we're a disparate community in many ways. One percent of the population at the most. Nobody else on my street that I know is part of my community. And finding a community, being part of that, is so amazing for the spirit.

[00:26:01] Some people say, when I've done loads of marches in my time, what does that do? It doesn't change anything overnight. But if nothing else, it gives you energy. It gives you, you feel part of a community that you haven't maybe got on your street or at home in that way. And it's, I, there's the best parts of my life have been involved in movements doing that. As it's what I live for as a mid-trader. But particularly in the last sort of 10 years over the LGBTQ plus work. And particularly now over trans work.

[00:26:31] And I think me and Jill both work in the charity sector as well. Or involved in the charity sector. And similarly to that, isn't it? You're finding kindred spirits. It's in the name, solidarity, comradeship. Finding that and finding that place when you can feel isolated is amazing. And I would, it's a point worth making, Jill, that we shouldn't lose sight of the positives that are going to come out of this. What a big market. It's time we flexed our spending power. Really. I actually think the, I don't think we talk enough about that as well.

[00:27:00] I think that's really important. So 25th is the big day. You can go online and trans solidarity alliance. You can register. And I think one of the key things that we talk about a lot is for people that can't rock up on the day. For people that can't travel, can't do this, can't do that. All these can'ts. Just existing is an act of defiance, isn't it? And I think we always have to remember that. And I think it's one of our key messages we talk about. Just being yourself, living your life is a sign of true defiance.

[00:27:27] And then finding your tribe or your posse online or Discord or wherever it might be with a trans charity, whatever. But I think people like yourself, you can illuminate the way a little bit more. You can actually talk to a wider sort of audience rather than trying to do it one person at a time. And that's what's so significant about what you've done here. Really awesome amount of work you've done. Superb. So we'll see how it all pans out. But I'm confident that if as a community, and it's tough, right?

[00:27:53] Because when you think about the sort of anti-trans movement, they've been well-coordinated, funded, strategic. It's been going on. The list goes on. But on the other side, we could do the same. It's about learning that strategy and trying to. And that's why I set up the Trans Solidarity Alliance as well. This is about using that strategy, like almost following that strategy in a way. Okay, so we need to step into political spaces. We need to utilize public figures with a platform. We can fundraise.

[00:28:22] There are so many things that we can do. And I think there's also an element of community building that needs to happen in order for us to achieve that, where we really understand what it means to actually come together. Because I've heard so many people say it. We need to come together. We need to come together. That's a very practical level. Somebody needs to do it. Somebody needs to do it, doesn't it? At a very practical level. Jill and I are involved with bringing three charities together at the moment to actually amplify those voices. And that's really important, isn't it? You have to be able to do that thing.

[00:28:48] But one of the things that really, it's a statement of the bleeding obvious, is that what our community has that perhaps other communities don't is we have imagination. We have creativity. We have curiosity. We have that ability, especially all those people in the arts. We have this ability to not just follow the other side, but actually be different and think of it around the corners, as it were. And I don't know whether, because we look how far we've come, how quickly. If only we had been doing this a year ago.

[00:29:14] But we probably just needed that hand grenade going off to actually galvanize this into action. And I think we have to remember this, that once you've got a right, you've got to fight to keep it. And I think we forget that, don't we? And I think whatever rights we get from this whole process now, I'm very confident that we'll get more. I think we've had a warning here. It's a warning from history. Never be complacent about your rights. Absolutely. And you made me think of Press for Change, Christine Burns.

[00:29:38] We're responsible for winning some of our rights, that those rights are now being stripped away from us. So what can we learn from that? Again, creating organizations like Press for Change doing a similar thing. We've got to hold on to those rights and understand how we do that. But you're absolutely right. And actually, when you were talking, I was thinking something we have is resilience. We've had to be resilient. And that, I think, gives us an extra kind of perspective. And also this idea that we don't always have to fight hate.

[00:30:07] Amplifying love, thinking about the love. Not to be a cliche. Love will prevail. Let's make it prevail. Yeah. No, absolutely. One of the, when we've done campaigning on racism as well, we worked a lot with Hope Not Hate. And that's their message. We've had to fight for politics in the city I live. And it was successful through that approach rather than just standing and shouting at them. That makes you feel better in the day. But actually, that message of love and support. And they may have the money. They may have the money. We've got the people. We've got the numbers.

[00:30:37] Ultimately, they may be well funded. But we will ultimately have the people on our side. And that's what I cling to. And resilience. We've all had to be resilient. All of us sitting. Three of us sitting here. And everybody that's been through whatever we call it. A journey. Whatever has to be in our own personal lives. That resilience to do and exist that we've all had to demonstrate. We bring that together as a community. And that is unstoppable. Agreed. I think a final chorus of Bring on the Love is needed.

[00:31:05] But I shall spare you my singing voice. Because my speaking voice is low enough as it is. So I'm growling out some sort of we are the world. We would not be appropriate. Jude, it's been an absolute joy to meet you for the first time. To listen to you. To hear you. And to whatever we can do to support you. We will do that. So thank you for spending time with us today. Yes. Thank you, Jude. Lovely to meet you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us.

[00:31:34] If you want to make contact with us. You can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections. Which is a charity that provides support and counselling. To trans people, non-binary people and their friends. And their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work.

[00:32:03] Really important. So please if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections. It's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say. If you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing. Because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show. Things you'd like to ask us. Questions, comments, applause or brickbats. Feel free to send it all in to gillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time. Goodbye. Bye-bye.