Transvox - Understanding Dog Whistles in Anti-Trans Discourse

[00:00:07] Hello and welcome back to Transvox and welcome back to the right honourable JennyHarvey.com. How are you Jenny? Right honourable, I'm very well thank you. I'm mostly neither right nor honourable but I'll take it for today. I'm very well thanks Gill, how are you? Good, good and today, this is exciting, I always like a listener's question. Oh right, okay, me too.

[00:00:31] Now someone's actually left a message on the website on our, what's it called, on our voice notes but sadly the voice note technology has done the transcription but hasn't saved the voice. Joseph has contacted us from Edinburgh and has asked a question and sadly I'm going to have to read it out and I'm going to respect Joseph's integrity here by not attempting a Scottish accent. Oh, what a shame. I know. Bergora. I've already gone the wrong country.

[00:00:58] We've offended so many people over the pods but why not because it's got such a chance. So Joseph's question is quite a nice interesting one really and a few series ago we talked about this how do you defend yourselves against some of the big arguments which go on in the anti-trans world. This is a question along those lines so what Joseph said is this, he said he's heard the phrase dog whistles use with regard to anti-gender or anti-transgender issues.

[00:01:27] Could he, could we have a think about the issue, give him some advice and guidance and tell him what to look out for and what the term's all about. Good question. Interesting I think. And do you want to start off by talking about what you think a dog whistle is other than the obvious? Yeah, because, yes, because yeah I think it's a really interesting, it's an interesting question and subject. So this is what I think, I might be wrong on this, my interpretation of dog whistle is when we're talking about trust or even politics.

[00:01:55] It's dog whistles are phrases and language I think, this is where I read it, that people use that conveys opinion over a subject, often over a culture subject, that a lot of the general listening public would not necessarily get, but almost speaks out to their tribe.

[00:02:17] It's not overt, maybe sometimes it's not overt hateful language or using slurs, but using coded language that might sound reasonable to most, to lots of people, but to people who know, it indicates a more extreme point of view. I think I'm describing that sort of right, is that something that only some people can hear?

[00:02:44] I think it comes from the fact that dogs can hear frequencies that most people, that people can't. Is that, I think I've got that right? Yeah, I mean, as I understood it, it comes, it is actually, the concept is actually named after ultrasolic dog whistles, which is that the audience that you intend the message to be heard can hear the message and everybody else doesn't hear it. What a more succinct way of putting it than I did. Yeah, I know, what can I say?

[00:03:11] Look, let's, I mean, there's some really obvious ones, aren't there? Shall I kick the ball off? Yes. I guess the one that always raises my attention is women and girls. Yes. Yes, so you hear that a lot, I think, with politicians. Correct. I think when you're talking about it in terms of when you're alluding to gender identity subjects, I think you mean not just talking about women and girls. Yeah.

[00:03:40] I think you hear it in some context that people are concerned for the safety of women and girls, which everybody would be. Violence against women across society has gone on for centuries and is a massive, huge problem. But in context of that, what it says to me is it is code because you've heard it from everybody, from J.K.

[00:03:59] Rowling through to the most right wing American politician, is they're basically saying protecting women and girls from these potential threats from trans people, basically trans women. That's the way I read that in context, when, for instance, yes. And I think it's interesting, isn't it, the way you describe that, because context is actually quite important here, isn't it? Yes.

[00:04:25] So, yes, if you're talking in the pub and you're talking about you've been going down, you've seen something that's really nice for women and girls, or everyone should be cautious about women and girls' safety, that's absolutely fine. But when you've got someone in power talking about this, or someone talking to an anti-trans audience, or the context is critical here, someone maybe talking about it in a work setting, really. I think you have to be a bit more. And it's not something where you listen to the phrase and you think, ooh, I need to react to that.

[00:04:54] What you have to do is to almost prick up your ears, don't you, and just think, ooh, is this actually an indicator of something I need to be careful about or something I can just ignore? But it's just hearing these little phrases and thinking to yourself, is this a clue of where someone might be? I've been, I've, so there's somebody in other contexts that I think has an anti-trans views. And I'm not going to say what part of my life, but I've been very aware of.

[00:05:18] And obviously doing a bit of Googling and looking at things they've written and who they've written them to. So in context, talking about gender identity, and somebody says, I've been a campaigner for women and girls for the last three years, when they're writing questions on the gender, answering questions on the gender format says to me, you're using that phrase to say, I'm trying to protect women and girls from trans women, effectively.

[00:05:45] Because I don't believe for the moment the person has been a long time feminist and has been supporting women's rights and girls rights for decades. And that I don't believe that for a moment in the context. And it is the way these women and girls, because they want to, obviously it's about safety, but it's also about young trans health care, because that's often the girls bit as well, in terms of trying to stop and end support for young trans people.

[00:06:14] So I think that does always say, reach out to me, I hear that. It's not intended for me, when you use that phrase intended, but I'm attuned to that dog whistle. So I certainly read something this person had written to a policy committee and said they were a long time campaigner for women and girls. And that to me, if I'm one of the dogs that can hear that language or, yeah.

[00:06:39] Whereas I think a lot of people would just hear it on its own and would go, of course, there's terrible violence against across the world. And I think we all hear the phrase, the trans or gay agenda, sometimes linked to that, don't you? Because it's the, I am a defender for women and girls, and I'm defending ourselves against the trans agenda or gay agenda. And I think those two things often, when they're coming together, you know, you've got someone here who is dog whistling and they are appealing to people.

[00:07:07] And they're seeding, they're sort of seeding language into the wider population, which they can start using without really understanding what it means. And of course, for us, we hear the dog whistle and we're alert to it. And I think sometimes people use these terms without knowing what they mean. And there's a little bit of education by saying, you know, make sure you don't use these phrases carelessly, because they mean something to people, don't they? I think so. Although, as I say, it's context. So if I heard it and it wasn't in that context, it's less of a problem.

[00:07:35] Where it's clever using that is because you're forced, if you're in that debate or you're forced, you're then forced to say, I too, of course, am in favour of, I find myself doing this. When I've talked about, when I've tried to explain to somebody the term TERF, trans-excluding radical feminist, is that has now gone beyond what the original sort of more narrower group it was referring to. When I talk about that, I always have to have a code it, because I have been.

[00:08:04] I've been a feminist for all my political life. And I am a feminist, and all the causes. But it's the same with that. You have to stop by saying, but of course, yes, I am concerned about that. So it forces you as somebody in that debate where you know they're basically saying, I'm concerned about trans women. That's what they're saying and using that phrase. You have to start off when you're countering that, because the general audience says, why don't you care about safety of women and girls?

[00:08:32] Women are so much more likely to suffer domestic violence. Why aren't you concerned? So it does force us down that route, rather than what they're actually saying is, off the bat is, I think trans women are dangerous to women and girls, which, of course, not. But that's their argument, which is just more easy to scope when they know you're wrong, empirically and evidentiary. But yeah, so that's how these dog vessels are really effective, I think.

[00:08:58] Another one I've heard quite a bit, especially politically, but also you hear it in the language, is this idea of biological sex or sex matters or sex is the only thing that matters or that we have to protect single sex spaces. And I think the word sex matters is actually a campaign as well. Yeah, that's really something to listen out for. Yeah, I think Maya Forstater's involved in sex matters and some of those. Yeah, they fund some of these cases.

[00:09:25] Yeah, I think I'd say only sex matters is not a dog whistle because they are narrowing that term. But when they say sex matters, I think this all started off when the big example of this is when J.K. Rowland started her tirade by saying that this Maya Forstater, this famous case, had lost the job. For saying sex is real. That's the one they say, sex is real. That wasn't the case.

[00:09:53] What they're actually saying is when they talk about sex matters, is it saying sex matters far more than gender. That's what they're saying. Because nobody in my world and in trans actors have ever heard anybody say sex doesn't matter. All they're saying is everything matters. But in terms of everyday life, gender is the thing that's in the way we live our lives. It's far more important, right? Biological sex at birth never comes into my life except when I'm talking about the subject.

[00:10:22] When they say sex matters, what they're saying in the dog whistle is gender doesn't. That's what they're saying, effectively. Sex matters and that's the only thing that matters. And I think you hear it a lot from, this is where that dog whistle, a lot from the politicians. And that's where I've been disappointed with the Labour Party who start to use that. And Keir Starmer has used that, talking about biological sex, which when you use the phrase biological sex, you mean cisgendered.

[00:10:51] That's what you mean by biological sex. That's what you're saying, cisgender matters. And transgender doesn't. Cisgender. So it is an absolute dog whistle. Because I don't think anybody's, in my view, nobody's ever said sex doesn't exist. Sex does exist. Of course. But it's a narrower term. It's a biological matter. And for the vast majority of trans people, it's not part of anybody's lives. It's gender is. So yes, I think that's a really good one, Jill.

[00:11:21] That idea that they say, you keep using the term biological sex in meaning. And I've definitely heard Keir Starmer use that before the election and our current health secretary. And what they're saying is they think it matters more than trans people's lives. Yes. I would argue. Yes, no, I agree with you. I listen to Wes Streeting talking about this constantly. He, of course, is our famous, is our favourite bad boy at the moment.

[00:11:49] Another one, this is particularly in the States, is family values. Oh, yeah, that's. Oh, yeah. Molo panic. Yeah, we do. It tends to be attack on the whole of the LGBTQ plus community, doesn't it? Family values in that. I think, yes, it's used in terms of trans, but it gets used a lot about the whole community. Even John Major got in trouble, didn't he, about talking about getting back to basics of family values and all that.

[00:12:17] It seems to me it tends so much to come from politicians who go on about family values and they're not leaving their wife because they've had secret home effects of sexual affairs. That seems to be the trope that happens. Those people talk about family values all the time and then it turns out they're far from it. But, yeah, I think those are the sort of things that abuse attack everybody. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Do we still hear it so much now? Yeah. Oh, yeah, especially in the States. Yeah, not in this country though. It's part of Project 2025.

[00:12:48] The other thing I thought was interesting is, what's that phrase I heard recently? It was quite a good one. Forget the predatory. Gender ideology. Oh, God, yeah. Because that's very important, that one, because it's not ideology. Gender's not an ideology. Gender is a thing. If you understand the concept of social identity, which, interestingly enough, you'll have people who will talk about their own identity, but then will deny gender identity.

[00:13:15] But it is quite interesting how this gender ideology is passed. So that's something to absolutely listen to. Do you think it's similar to when they used to talk in the 80s and 90s about the gay agenda? Like, rather it's not about people being a thing who they are, but like some sort of... And you're almost... I wonder if it's even similar to the way they've started using critical race theory. Some idea that this is like this movement to be...

[00:13:41] But, yeah, I've not heard sort of family values that much in this country since we had equal marriage, I think. Some less... But definitely it betrays a viewpoint, doesn't it? Family values or... I think I've heard that probably more than I realised once I start thinking about it. Yeah? I do think... I don't know if... I'm not sure I've picked... Maybe my dog whistle... I haven't picked it up so much in the trans discourse, more of the wider. But I might be because I've missed it.

[00:14:11] Because sometimes I don't hear the dog whistle because I've got a bit of wax in my ear as I get older. The thing is, it's interesting as well. It's actually how can you tell if someone's dog whistling transphobia rather than just saying stuff? And often it's... The point of dog whistling is that they're talking to the audience. So who is the audience they're talking to? So if they're addressing an anti-trans audience, it's a good chance they're anti-trans. Unless they're standing up to an anti-trans audience. You're right. It's a context.

[00:14:40] It's what everything else they've done. Somebody uses a phrase just, in a sense, once and hasn't. And they're using it as everyday language. It's less. But then you look to what they've done in the context. Like I said on the first one, you realise... Or they keep using it. Yeah, they keep using it. Or they keep using this. I think you mentioned something about that. That one, that adult human female trope. Woman. There was a t-shirt. Kelly G. Minshaw goes by the name Pokey Parker.

[00:15:10] She's that horrible trans activist that went around the world. Yeah, Posey Parker is, I think, their online name. And I know they've got links to... Or got... This could be liable. But I understood that some more far-right groups in America have funded some of their online content. And they were sharing... I remember they had some trouble in Australia and New Zealand sharing a platform with white supremacists. Or... But they... You'd see these signs.

[00:15:40] It's adult human female. Like, written as a definition in the dictionary, wasn't it? And it's woman, adult human female. Basically saying women are not... Trans women are not women. Because I remember this. I remember going to speak at a conference in Liverpool. A unison conference where trans issues were on the agenda. As they are in a union of a million women. And she'd got some posters put up in Liverpool. Billboard was put up. That's right.

[00:16:08] With woman, colon, adult human female up there. And that was an epitome of a dog whistle. Because I think a lot of people walk past and go, what the hell does that mean? Why is that? That doesn't seem odd. But everybody in the debate knows that's her slogan. Yeah, such a... I remember that. I remember reading that and seeing that. I think the poster got taken down the billboard. Because the people that owned the wall it was on were told that it was a horrible... It was an attack on our community.

[00:16:39] God, yeah. I forgot about that one. I don't see it quite so much now. Because I think she's slightly disappeared off the radar for the moment. She's a big fan of Tommy. Plus, apparently, she praised Tommy Robinson. Oh, they are. 2019. No doubt she'll be coming back to sponsor. They'll allow himself. Rowling does that. She'll ally herself. Checker Rowling will ally herself with some of the most horrible people in America, as long as they say something anti-trans. Yeah. They're not. They're not.

[00:17:09] But, yeah, the adult human female, that was the one. I've forgotten about that one, yeah. Yeah. And she's had a stellar career. She's built a career in being anti-trans. Good to see someone making money out of our distress. It's lovely, isn't it? Well, then that trans, yeah, going back to that point, because I don't think it's a good answer to that. Trans ideology. All the term, and I came across, somebody said this, used the term transgenderism. I find that's, I know it's less of a dog whistle, but I find that awkward.

[00:17:38] It's like when you say it's an ism, you're like saying it's an ideology, like it's a political ideology, like socialism. I'm a socialist. I don't find that, but when you say, I don't regard myself as a transgenderist, I don't regard myself as an ism. I don't think it's, I don't see it as a political belief. I think, as you said, it's an identity. It's about myself. It's not a, I don't want to oppose it on anybody.

[00:18:05] Last thing I'm interested in, if I could ever have the power to make other people trans, I'm certainly not interested in doing that. It is interesting that, that people talk about their social identity as being an anti-trans campaigner, which is an identity. It's an identity they wear without it, they'd be lost and that they don't accept national identities or social identities or work identities. They accept all those, but they want to accept gender identity.

[00:18:34] What is very funny about this person who set up the party of women, they stood, she ran for the Bristol central seat to get into parliament and came in last with 196 votes, equating to 0.5% of the vote and lost their deposit. So that's good. Oh, well, that's something. Good people in Bristol. Bristol, it seems a great place.

[00:19:03] Is it a Green MP now in Bristol? Yeah, I think they've had a second Green MP was elected because I think there was a prominent Labour MP who got beaten by a Green MP. So I would say Bristol's a little bit like Brighton in that respect, a little bit of an outlier compared to other areas, just the politics. So I think the point of dog whistles is they're not meant to be, they are meant to be subtle. And if you hear them, you've got to check them out. They may sound reasonable.

[00:19:30] And sometimes you have to just pick the person out and say, what do you mean by that? So I saw something in a meeting recently talking about the dark side of trans activism. Oh, God, yes. And that's interesting. And if that's in an audience of people talking about, there's a bunch of trans people talking about that stuff, you can talk about it. But if you're saying that to trans people or you're saying that about trans people when trans people are present, that's a challenge.

[00:19:57] Because what you're doing is you're signalling to other people who are in the place to gather around that sort of idea. Yeah. And what we know, I don't know if there's any truth in this, but let's just, it seems common sense. Dog whistles are bigotry. And bigotries intersect and interact with other bigotries. And that's what we have to be careful for here. If you've got Tommy Robinson and other anti-gender people getting together, you start to see that there's a reason why people,

[00:20:24] there are some people who genuinely believe that trans people shouldn't have the same rights as cisgendered women. That's fine. Everyone's entitled to that fact. But there comes a point where people are jumping on a bandwagon or they're saying these things because it's fashionable to suit. I was listening to Talk Sport recently, I think I was telling you this, not by, purely by accident, listening to some guy talking about, oh yes, trans people in sport. It's terrible. It's a shocker. It's a disgrace. It's a threat to the show.

[00:20:50] Sharon What's-Her-Face says it's biological sex. That's all that matters, biological sex. Yeah. And I'm thinking, yeah, interesting that. It'd be interesting to look at when they look at these sort of athletes who are intersex and you look at the fact that intersex people are measured on the hormones. And you look at me probably and I probably got more oestrogen in my system than any woman who's post-menopause. And it becomes complicated, doesn't it?

[00:21:18] And the thing is, of course, we all want very simple ways of handling things. And dog whistles aren't simple. But it's, I think, in response to Joseph, it's just listening out for those little keys. And if you notice them, I think the thing is not to leap into some sort of defensive position and start striking back. It's about having your antennae raised and being prepared to ask the question, what do you mean by that? What does it really mean by that? It does. I am. Yeah, it does. Because there's a danger that you're over-attuned to it. I think I am.

[00:21:47] Because I've been in this, it feels like I've been in the middle of this culture war for my validity for 10 years now. I overthink things and oversee things. So you can get a bit too attuned to it, I think. But it is useful to have that understanding and awareness politically so that you can see whether, for instance, when people are raising things in certain forums, whether actually it has been done in good faith or not.

[00:22:14] So are they actually considering that question about use of single-sex spaces? Is that genuinely part of a concern that is genuinely felt and coming from a place of trying to understand a concern? Or is actually when you get that dog whistle going, you get those phrases, those little red flags. Actually, is it really because the bigger picture is they don't think trans people are valid or should exist?

[00:22:42] And you do hear that a lot when you're talking about that debate about protecting single-sex spaces and things. I often don't think there is good faith in those questions. And then you do a bit of digging and you find out they've been an activist for five years and been involved in campaigns. And you go, well, OK, at least I know where you're coming from.

[00:23:05] So don't pretend to be just, in a sense, almost sometimes feigning ignorance on a subject to ask questions as if you really need an answer when actually you're fishing for something. I think to answer, finally, Joseph's question, and I don't know what Joseph is or isn't how he identifies or how he doesn't identify. Or whatever. But the vast majority of these dog whistling is against trans women.

[00:23:30] And there's virtually, there may be something against trans men, but I can't think of a single dog's woman against a trans man. They're not specifically, but they are about anti-trans as a whole. So it's just the culture war. So when they are saying sex matters or actually when they say they're concerned about girls, if you look back at people like Graham Lennon who got very obsessed with this,

[00:23:52] it's the concern about letting, they're not, they're against particularly young trans people, young girls who are actually trans boys or trans men. That's where that's targeted. The horrible language that you talk about when they talk about people being mutilated and all this sort of stuff that Graham Lennon talked about. Because he would talk about girls being mutilated, which was actually just talking about trans men, young trans men.

[00:24:19] And it wouldn't be, girls wouldn't be under 18s at some point having surgery for breast removal. And they use it in those phrase. So they do, you do get those attacks in that respect, I think are aimed just as much as particularly when you talk about young people about, and all the people, they talk about people mutilating themselves and things like that. And it is often blamed.

[00:24:40] And it's often men talking about that because cisgendered men often are using that attack line of saying, oh God, I'm protecting women and women shouldn't be mutilating themselves. So I think there is, but because the cultural war is so much easier to focus and attack trans women, and you put the key point, the line into using sport as a wedge issue has been so successful in America because that's built upon, that's gone from sport,

[00:25:07] which some people found a reasonable argument in some circumstances. I think I can see some arguments around sport, but that's a wedge into then basically attacking everybody who's trans. I think you do that. You see them in other contexts. When people talk about globalists, they're very often anti-Semitic in background, isn't it?

[00:25:29] When they talk about globalist bankers, that's historically, these are quite historical dog whistles that are anti-Semitic and other races. So there's definitely in other contexts, you see them and notice them and hear them. There was another one. Interesting question, Joseph. Yeah. There was one that sprang to my mind when we were talking about trans men, a really big one, which we've forgotten about.

[00:25:55] I can't find something, a thought springs into your mind and drops straight out. Yeah, or they'll come to you at three o'clock in the morning. Yes. There's a big one we've missed, but I can't think what it is at the moment. And forgive me. So anybody can remember it. Please feel free to send it in the email. We'll just address it all the time. But hopefully, Drew, so that answers your question. I hope so. Are we okay to leave it there, Jen? Yeah, I think so. We've done a couple of pods where we've basically bargained with this brother for an hour.

[00:26:23] So maybe a shorter one is good for all involved, Jill. Yeah. But interesting. It's an interesting subject. And it's about... I'll just turn it up. To understand dog whistles and understand... Ultimately, it's about being... And this is what's become the sort of... It's about being... Woke was being about being socially aware, wasn't it? That was where it came from. People understanding the language, understanding the social injustices. And being able to spot dog whistle. And it's all to most...

[00:26:53] That, isn't it? Being aware enough of the language and the debate and the discourse. So you can see where somebody's trying to use these terms to oppress a minority, which is what they are. Interesting. This is very sober, Jill. This was very sober. Interesting. But it makes you wonder there must be a lot of pro-trans dog whistling. I suppose we do. I suppose that's a really interesting point. Whether we use language ourselves. I don't know. Because some of them...

[00:27:20] Your dog would, using the term trans-excluding radical feminist, be a dog whistle. I don't know. I think it's quite descriptive and explicit, though. I don't know if it's a dog whistle. Because it's quite explicitly that it became used for TERF, the term TERF. There are people that would... There are definitely people who are... And the anti-trans movement would see terms like cisgender as problematic. I don't. It is in the dictionary. It is not a... Absolute... It is not a...

[00:27:48] It is just a use of Latin terminology, really. So I suppose it may well be that we use things. I forgot that... I've remembered that dog whistle. Go on, then. It's identifying as a penguin. Put in set your own... Oh, it's... Yeah, that trope. Yeah. It's that trope. It's... Yes. It's what... Ricky Gervais and Dave... It's that thing. I think what originally came up, they go, if you can identify...

[00:28:14] If people can identify as man or woman, then I can identify as an attack helicopter. It's such a nonsense. It got used so... So boring. It was such a boring point and joke. I think the word trans identifying is a dog whistle term. I've never used it. I object to the firm I don't identify as trans. I identify as a woman. I am trans. I'm part of the trans community. So I suppose... But when people say jet trans identifying, they tend to be not using that in a positive way.

[00:28:44] But that's just me. Maybe that's less of a dog whistle. Maybe that's my own biases. But I always say I identify as a woman. And I happen to be trans. I always say that trans is a descriptive term. I'm tall. I'm a trans woman and I'm a tall woman. But maybe that's, again, my own hang-ups a bit. I don't know. And probably in the next three weeks, all the language is likely to change again. Listen out for dog whistles.

[00:29:08] And the reason our community talks about them is it's a coded way for us to think about whether someone might be a potential threat. Because we're always on edge. And especially in these words, it's good to know that these people are using these phrases so we can protect ourselves. Because if you find yourself in a room full of anti-trans people and you have a right to walk out or to do anything that protects yourself.

[00:29:32] Or indeed, if it's only one person in there that's using language that's trying to persuade others of a view that would harm us. Which I think is where it's often used as well. That using dog whistles as softer language as if somehow it can bring people in. But, yeah, I think being aware of it and understanding it is really useful, I think. Look, we've come to the end three times now. We must stop thinking about other things to add in. Because otherwise we'll be here for another two hours.

[00:29:59] We're like a, yeah, like a, like a Columbo. Just one more thing, aren't you, as you go out the door there. There's a modern reference. I see you're hitting exactly our age group reference again. Just one more thing. Yes. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that discourse. It's quite interesting thinking about it. Because you don't often stop and think. So thank you, Joseph, for the question. Yeah. I'll see you next time when we're no doubt going to one day do the very famous Star Trek episode. So far my notes go to 15 pages on it.

[00:30:29] So it's going to be a treat for everybody. It is. Thanks, Jill. Bye. Great to see you. You take care. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen?

[00:30:59] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us.

[00:31:27] Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brickbats, feel free to send it all in to Jillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.