Transvox - The Olympics and Trans+ Sports Issues

[00:00:00] Hey, I'm welcome back to Transvox. How are you, Jenny? How are you doing? I'm very well, thank you, Jill. How are you? I'm good, I'm good. I can't wait to talk about our subject

[00:00:17] today but first of all, I have to say I'm looking out the window and there's something peculiar in the sky and it's apparently it's been 20.5 degrees in the northeast for three days. We've not had any rain. That's got to be a sign of the popular

[00:00:35] Olympics, if it's like that in the UK. I think the arc that was going down North Umbland High Street quite recently has got grounded because now we've got to we've got a drought. That's lovely hearing Stote too, it's very nice to do it here and thinking

[00:00:53] of a torrential weather, I'm drawn to the fact that I'm slightly obsessed with the Olympics and I thought we've talked about trans issues and sports a bit before but I thought we're interesting just to have a bit of gossip about what's going on in the world and

[00:01:07] think about sport generally but maybe just start with the Olympics first of all I mean are you watching it? I have it, it's ever as a strange because I love the Olympics.

[00:01:17] I love sport. I watch anything that sort of causes sport and I was sort of wasn't quite completely the Olympics coming up to it. I wasn't like in fact I hadn't realized when it was started

[00:01:28] and then I suddenly get very drawn in and I've spent an hour because of my leave today. Watching a Guatemalan archer win the first gold for Guatemala and then you've never watched an archer before but I love watching those sports that you never see otherwise,

[00:01:45] you know? I'm quite obsessed and now I'll start getting obsessed with the metal table now which is not healthy because that's where I get all jingoistic and start and start cheering against and cheering against our competitors like Australia and the metal table.

[00:02:05] There was a I was listening to something I was the dentist at the day of Monday and it's always exciting, isn't it when you go to any healthcare provider when you're trans because you have to go have to negotiate all that name changing and all that stuff

[00:02:17] that you have to get through but that's one of the day and but on the way then on the way back it was on the radio they were talking that they were doing that cross-country writing with

[00:02:27] the party. The time they'd cock that's right who had a puncture we did have a puncture he's amazing unbelievable. I know about him anyway because I follow him a lot anyways and

[00:02:40] amazing he's wanted to mount his stage in the tour of France and then he also does the mountain bike and it was 40 seconds behind and he got back up and then the last that was so

[00:02:51] excited and then he down I've bombed in and won and all the French funds booted both of the live which was quite fun. It was quite fun in a way. The thing is I think there's this

[00:03:03] quite a lot of mutual dislike that's quite well hidden between Britain and France and it's sort of it's in good sport really but there's a ledge to it every now and then isn't it?

[00:03:14] I think it was because he was up against his French guy and he pretty much almost not too me it was a pretty risky move to take the lead. It was brilliant really to watch I love that.

[00:03:25] I mean you know I got really into that and I've watched it now. I have so sad this is I've watched it twice one of the BBC commentator and then we then I rewatched it with the

[00:03:37] U-RUS sport on the prime thing with their commentator to see if that was a better commentary more excited. That's weird isn't it? That is a little bit weird. Well yeah no lawful that was interesting I thought was having this because I'm a bit

[00:03:52] similar so I listened to the radio and I'm watching on TV and at one of those half as exciting on TV is it was on the radio because the BBC got away so they didn't film where he got the

[00:04:06] so the big drama beds they didn't show it because they some reason didn't overlap it they were changing channels and the BBC I love the BBC but this is to keep going back to the

[00:04:16] studio I don't want to see the studio I want to see or Andy Murray. Andy Murray was amazing I loved watching Andy Murray but there were there was showing the swimming and the cut away from

[00:04:27] the end of the almost the end of one good asswimming or something it showed you is Andy Murray doing a break point in the second round this was the final of something it was hard to know what it was

[00:04:36] it was the message yeah that's right and we won we won gold in there so it's been really so it's been it's been really interesting and I think there's two issues that we need to discuss obviously trans people in sport because they're absolutely noticeable by their

[00:04:55] absence all of us surely if you listen to trans people when you know the events surely that's right they seem to think yeah well actually and I'm gonna be slightly politically on

[00:05:08] correcty and do forgive me so and I know I shouldn't say this but I was watching and I walked in the other day to my other half was watching the female swimming and I didn't know what it was

[00:05:19] and I just walked in I saw a bunch of people walking out and hats all of whom were about 8 for 6 tall and I said oh which guys event is this then and my partner said these are the females

[00:05:32] and it's really interesting when you see people who are in that in that slightly middle position where you've got a lot of female athletes who are in a high testosterone such like and

[00:05:44] you know they've got the builds of what you might call a you know sort of biological man and all it is quite fascinating how you get these mixes between the biology which of course you know

[00:05:56] a man as a man as a woman as we know because we've been told that by people that no better than us but it is interesting that even within the sort of the traditional genders there's a huge

[00:06:06] degree difference actually that's where I definitely I was not quite sure we were going with that I don't think the female swimming is necessarily a bit of higher testosterone and another women that is a case but physiologically sports you know the differences within the genders I'll

[00:06:23] bigger than the differences in some respects between the genders so you know that's right you know swimmers are generally all really tall and long wings bands aren't they so because that works for basketball players are not generous small anymore you know so most sports you know even tennis

[00:06:42] players now the sort of the male tennis players are all 6-4 there's no room for a 5-4 8 tennis player really so there's always going to be physical physicality bit and gymnasts you

[00:06:58] know like some of your biles is really short you know that's not good you know so I wasn't quite sure were you okay with the description of the really swimmers but yeah yeah I think that's I think

[00:07:11] and then so of course by all the genders I think with the trend when the people talk about trends people in sport you know there's all sorts of physiology and differences and you know

[00:07:24] it's that go beyond that idea of just trends people have an advantage well the thing is if you you're doing gymnastics on the floor and you're 6 but 5 you have a disadvantage so you know yes there are there are physical there's exactly what you're saying there are better

[00:07:46] physicals for different types of sports and that is a risk they respect them of gender and some of us just about skill as well as being really honest but of course the the

[00:07:56] famous shot that's used to illustrate this is the shot with a very tall trans woman standing next to three of the smallest cisgendered female as well as you've ever seen in America this is American college sports but I think there was some deception on on the film but

[00:08:14] they're hysteria over that which is still happening today when I'm only listening to what you're youtubers from America and the Republicans they are just turning again on this issue and as I've been clear quite there are hardly any trans people do you even sport

[00:08:29] to such a non-esuing the big field of sport you know all honesty yeah to not warrant anywhere near the coverage against but it's obviously this is Thomas yeah Leo Thomas that's right you know and I think it was all being managed well by individual sports until the recent

[00:08:51] trans panic by saying you know that you know there were checking levels of testosterone and so forth and some sports you know that I think I think boxing had a rule that you know

[00:09:03] that they got the evidence if you'd been through puberty that would give you so I think I think they didn't allow trans women who have been through puberty of course in other countries trans people don't have to go through puberty it's just in the UK

[00:09:19] at the moment they do because of that was stupid laws but so I think sports were managed in it fine because as still to this day there's hardly if any any trans participation in the Olympics

[00:09:33] the last person that was aware of was the weight lift and she came last Laura Hogan I think and from New Zealand she was brave and got a lot of stick and she came last yeah so it's quite

[00:09:44] hard so it is just not an issue but it's just been used to make an issue because it's as because they chose to do that because they failed to ban and I think it's all okay

[00:09:55] about because they failed to ban trans people from using the bathrooms in America and all those laws they tried to do and they were all struck down on so they moved on to sport and then

[00:10:05] interested in what was on sport because they felt that was an easier sale than it was. Yes yeah yeah what's interesting is the rules are quite fascinating because there's international Olympic committee have a bunch of rules and they say that guidelines

[00:10:22] of course the rules about trans mask people but they're all about trans trans trans women really yeah so maybe some maybe but what they're saying is each and the fact international Federation of Responsible, Responsible, Sessing, Energy Billity was for sport and what

[00:10:40] they're saying is they require transgender women to a transition before the age of 12 to be eligible for the women's categories to prevent any potential biological advantage from male puberty. However some do some don't and then some have different categories and such like

[00:10:57] world-rowing stick to that. I'm triathlon stick to that but actually testosterone levels have got to be below a certain case and you've even got someone who is a BMX rider Chelsea Wolf

[00:11:12] who has a trans and hasn't been allowed to compete. I mean a BMX rider you know I don't see advantage though but so I imagine there's a physical advantage maybe but the point was I mean

[00:11:26] that's sort of slightly changed in the Olympics. If it's the IOC rules before then individual sports and outside of the Olympics these sports all have these individual sports all have their own sort of rules they've all just been hardened and gone more that way because of the

[00:11:43] trans panic drummed up in the US and now over here and the hatreded belongs like so of Sharon Davis etc and this country and I will inject you role you know clearly and they've all

[00:11:56] jumped on that but there was never any demonstrated need or problem that I saw that yes there's potential for some people to have an advantage well there's all the disadvantages that go with being

[00:12:11] trans just as there's advantage and disadvantage is with privilege of class what did you know I was I was so reading the percentage of medallist school medallists that have been state educated in the

[00:12:25] UK yeah it's well out of step so you far more likely to have got a gold medal in Olympics if you know in terms of if you've gone through private education so there's this advantage

[00:12:38] privilege across everything and it seems this is the only thing that people want to jump on because it's an easier attack that's why I get sort of frustrated about the whole debate I can see

[00:12:50] some of the arguments but you've even got I've just reading and then used today you've even got the siege and I can see I could see some physical physical I guess a physical advantage

[00:13:00] maybe it be a mix in that that might need to deal with but today there's been there's a a British dance player a woman a cisgender dance player who's refused to play an atonement

[00:13:12] and a women's tournament because there's a trans woman in dance well there is no you know there's not really identified physical benefit in dance from having you know having had a gender history is a it's like chess yeah it's just it all that becomes sense

[00:13:37] that one argument falls away and it just becomes about well we think trans people are weird and we need to get them away from women's faces that's where it boils down to you know women dance players I've competed alongside men at the World Championship

[00:13:54] my dad's and the philanthropist in the gender law woman so it's when when those things happen you're like in chess that demonstrates to me how this is not about really evidence based we need to be fair and and actually more about an agenda to just

[00:14:14] other marginalized trans people and there are it is crazy there's some states in America have more laws about trans people in sport than there are trans people taken by a sports yes I like I read that one of the states it's ridiculous religious laws and there's nobody really

[00:14:33] competitive you know competing at a level that it's an issue no it is just a non-issue to make us are and it should only be addressed to the extent is if it does start to become some sort of issue but

[00:14:46] you know and I think it's fair and it's the thing I find more troubling yeah actually an un and more unfair than the situation with trans women it's actually people who are intersex because well these are people who and another four within the trans plus and

[00:15:05] Brella and that's how we find that's why I think we should talk about because these people who are you know have all the physiology of one gender but it's not that the presenters

[00:15:16] not this is that the other and all they might have a problem processing testosterone so they might have sexual organs and everything might be peculiar or the sexual organs drop to the

[00:15:25] different way later and there were myths that were misgented at birth and I think that and I think we trivial I mean the sport bodies trivialize I mean cluster cluster so many was one might

[00:15:36] this one term I mean this isn't that some of the vagina who's not allowed to be a woman and I mean this is where it becomes well she there she is a woman bizarre I know she is but I mean she's

[00:15:43] not treated as a woman and a woman's woman she's a terrible cruel I know it's like it's a that's what I mean the fact that she's holding to the trans debate is and for being intersex

[00:15:55] which you know you argue that okay some people argue there's no such thing as gender identity okay let's put that aside and say that all it exists is biology well intersex people is a biological situation it's not a gender identity is purely biological and and that's

[00:16:11] where I think it's so much. So I think it's a really good so faster to men yeah I absolutely agree she's a woman with an intersex condition that means she has higher levels of testosterone

[00:16:22] so basically she's a woman in all aspects she just has a higher level of testosterone due to an intersex condition now that fundamentally in terms of biological difference to me is no difference in the fact that Michael Phelps my understanding this women that won more got medals

[00:16:39] than anybody in history has a difference in biology my understanding that doesn't produce the same levels of that take acid in the same way as other people so you know it is a biological

[00:16:51] difference if I'm wrong on this but I certainly I'm one of the reading and article and then figure it's true but I certainly read somewhere that maybe the case it helped and allow him to win

[00:17:02] so many medals right that's just a different in biology some people have a difference cast as is just a higher level testosterone but she's a woman with higher levels of levels of testosterone

[00:17:12] yeah and and they made her either not compete or take drugs yeah do you know it's just better and I think let's lack the acid that he's rivals with shortens as we go between yeah

[00:17:21] yeah exactly which which allows him well how's that any difference than a woman who has higher testosterone it's a difference in biology and we accept that except if it's anything to do with

[00:17:37] gender of trans and and insects people do fall into the trans or breler yeah you know some people individuals might not recognize that but I tend to I think that's the case I don't see

[00:17:47] that there's any difference there apart from the fact that at the moment there's you know there's that all the has been that and it's been some time I mean I know there was a sort of I think there

[00:17:56] are some of that stems in athletics from sort of your eastern idea that there was doping drugs maybe the female runners were given testosterone as doping a strokes and doping

[00:18:11] in the 80s you know when you got those records set by your male and the touch below there's a name of drug doctor watching athletics in the 80s I loved to me at his course was I think an eight

[00:18:24] hundred meter set in the record that wasn't broken for decades or whatever and or I was at 400 or 800 and there's lots of suspicion in these Germany about doping things like that so you get those sort of silicaments around that and I think that's blood into what's happened to

[00:18:40] cast so which I don't think is awful really she's been treated awfully in my view on the back of the trans panic I think it's much as anything and it is and it's the history here and

[00:18:54] it is you're right it is cold water is Germany your female athletes were injected with male hormones and metabolic steroids and and apparently there was some sort of there was a program called international prestige through success and sports they were you see and and

[00:19:12] that was that was it and of course in a and I make sense there's not you know you can see the history but I just think it's it's it's it's a great it's a great I mean what happens to

[00:19:22] trans people is bad enough but it's it's an absolutely shocker against intersects people so well you know yeah yeah yeah yeah if it was going to be such like controversial I had this

[00:19:31] conversation with my brother at one point about what happened in sort of the Eastern Europe and the doping in sport and state sponsored doping in sport and I almost made the argument at one point literally 2012 that we were financially doping our sport because we funded individuals to

[00:19:50] win lots of individual gold medals and focus on that and as a nation which I loved because I loved the fact that we were suddenly top in medals and he was but we pumped a lot of room when he

[00:19:59] into into doing that where other countries didn't so we used finance to to supercharge the turnaround from that was it a land to where we only won one gold medal yes so then for the last three Olympics

[00:20:13] we've basically competed alongside a china and america in the medal table almost you know almost you know so well we talked we've talked sensibly about the Olympics and I mean it's been

[00:20:24] a stuff as before we go I just want to get your thoughts on the opening ceremony for the top so for the ceremony all I can say is and I think I think and though it's being there absolutely

[00:20:36] it's been a storm of approval and France and I think only think the only expression the only adjective I can use for the Olympics opening ceremony it was it was very French

[00:20:50] and I loved it I didn't but I I did sort of I had I did sort of a matter of trying to sort of the different yeah they didn't I don't really work for TV I don't know that it worked within the

[00:21:01] people that take aside it was raining which was so unfortunate for a thought I just it for a number reason I just didn't think it worked for in the same way than having it in a stadium the way you

[00:21:16] could make it tell it was visual it was too spread along the because it went along the river and then everywhere else and I think the commentators was there were no rehearsals the commentators

[00:21:25] didn't know what was coming next I was listening to the so it was very difficult for that and it was raining it was sort of confusing the parade of the athletes was difficult because they were all

[00:21:35] just on boats and they were they had a few minutes a few seconds each to talk about each country and then you go in you can really see them and it was a cut there was a cut to the

[00:21:45] sort of back and early and dancing dance on a bridge or a fashion show that's right and that's very French the boss of this there's kind of it raised in a mirror if again with them good I wasn't

[00:21:59] quite sure if you have not they're saying they were mocking the last stop but I don't it did look to me like that table over the last stop there and they had drag artists drag queens

[00:22:09] as part of that and they've course have gone all mad and Trump has gone all mad say this is welcome he's actually referred to it as Saint-Anic apparently I've read stuff where that they've referred to the fact that there was that robotic horse and they've talked about pale

[00:22:24] horse and they all rump I'm excuse my language but it's absolutely not some of the awesome some of the YouTube channels around this that's sort of the the the the old far-right commentator on this it absolutely crazy and then there's no ways it's some touch

[00:22:40] satanic it's it's just very French as you said yeah but I sort of like this sort of ambition on that but it did and this is my bias and it's both my ginger as me it did make me want some finish sort

[00:22:52] of what should it dipping in out of it just go back and revisit the 2012 UK one the British one which I thought was brilliant but then as far as a bias down to have but I just thought it was

[00:23:03] brilliant and made me cry and it was like we were different and worked amazingly I remember the first I think that I think when you when you I think there were I was interested in the sports

[00:23:16] people and all the sports people say it was it was it was literally seeing the athletes but all that's you know terrible culture stuff getting in the way it was a bit of a nightmare but it was all

[00:23:25] great at the end when we could see people when we saw Zinedines the Dan hunting the torch to people yeah that was all lovely and the thing floating in the sky and also so but the thing I mean

[00:23:35] Salind no one knew we're leading all this beauty you're that was what's going on with their health oh my god she's been to something awful that was that was pretty brilliant stuff there you see

[00:23:47] at the end of it was pretty brilliant but I thought the whole thing as struggled to stay watching it and knuck it was I got more attention span anyway so so I think it was ambitious but

[00:23:59] I don't think white works for television not not doing it in a stadium where you can have it as you're far too traditional you deal with like a studio where a theatre set up rather than trying to film it along the whole of Paris we were

[00:24:16] yeah it was different I mean why not do something to different because I know you could compete with what the China is did because they basically I was basically so much money into it it was

[00:24:28] so over the top yeah and but Beijing and it was basically their their mark because they were now well there was basically there are now some have been a super power I think the base that's right

[00:24:37] it was like that we went then when we did afterwards just for a well this is also this is our weird history you know and how we missed to be in the James Bond. And I think that's the

[00:24:49] thing isn't it if it meant to be a celebration national culture what was beautiful about it was that it was about showing Paris because it was in the city and I mean that's what it did and

[00:24:59] it was it was a French evening for French people showing us what French people are like and how they are and all are sort of stuff and all and not the madness and the shrug shubbing

[00:25:09] the shoulders and they're all the you know madden what's the face where they had been chopped off and all that stuff and the rocket's eyes I looked at and that was and it was great

[00:25:20] and I'd set myself up with a picnic and I made the picnic last for the whole length of the evening and that was shows how big my picnic was. And you're a much more travel person you must have

[00:25:31] been to Paris if you don't like that love Paris. Especially the bit where they're in the in the the Suez underneath because to show that it as well and that is a most I mean because

[00:25:41] underneath the Paris streets is as is a series of Suez which is which is completely map what's above. So for example you have a drink drop your car keys it down the this is

[00:25:55] the famous story if you drop your car keys down the a drain in the in the Paris street it drops through into the Suez below and then people can go down and get them for you. I mean that's so

[00:26:06] French in there yeah it is I mean yeah I wanted to know it was quite like that I thought they got their idea from Phantom of the Opera about all the sort of the the almost

[00:26:18] canals underneath the city. Yeah we are apparently that's probably why the scene is not the most clean of rivers I think probably well and as you all know the French are mad and wet

[00:26:32] because they're all in sight. I like a de-sincerecy and I like you know there's lots I like about the French spirit of rebelliousness that sets them apart I think that's I'm not gonna say there's a little bit of the French about Egypt and Jenny there's definitely that little

[00:26:47] you're gonna say quare about you don't you think maybe yeah I could go with that I was was the only thing I couldn't do at school was French I was not very good at languages but

[00:26:58] I kind of appreciate them just be like want you to ideas in critic I don't know how I'm when they're the crazy and horrible but French being French it's good I think it should be a

[00:27:12] brace though I should review my opinion of it I think. Love the French. All right honey well after you'll speak to your next week you're probably well yeah I'll show you here. I want you and you take care bye everyone.

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