Transvox - Polymorphic Relationships and the world of Kink

[00:00:00] Hi and welcome back to Transvox. Now this week I'm a friend Jenny's not here for what all sorts of reasons, I think she's out scouting for the Stokehockey theme again. But this time I've got a special guest and here in Frutabia is Athena so hi Athena. Hello I'm

[00:00:25] Athena I am person talking right now my pronouns are she her I am a transwoman out for three four years now yeah happy to be on show fantastic well tell us all about

[00:00:41] your journey into Transmos when when was the first what was the first awakening is it where so when I really realized was back when I was it was it was kind of run up to Kobe

[00:01:00] kind of late 2019 early 2020 I looking back there was signs going back to when I was at least stuff when I was 12 but there was that kind of early realisation and then lock down

[00:01:17] it suddenly you're locking the flat with just yourself because you can't go out and that gives you an awful lot of time to kind of sit there think who am I you know why why has

[00:01:31] ever been this your only imprisonment my life that I've been shoveling different versions of masculinity into and it hasn't worked yeah many kits you yeah I think a lot of us have been that and what's that's the thing is that I'm an extreme year old and you're

[00:01:52] the next at least one generation behind me and Jenny and I normally talk about all sorts of issues with the perspective of two or people with all of our television references from the

[00:02:01] 1970s and such like so they get into trouble for this so it's nice to be so I'm who's a bit young again probably what we're going to talk about today are alternative relationships

[00:02:10] and life styles because actually the fact that Jenny and I have come you know a part of an old generation means that we are probably less aware of what is available to the you know

[00:02:22] young trans people with whom we're very rarely bump into and that's so so we'll opportunity to talk to about different sorts of experiences yes yeah so one thing yeah I'll come right out

[00:02:35] of it I am involved both in kink and also have some interactions with kind of polyamory so situations with multiple partners I can take a lot of different forms people tend to think that

[00:02:53] there's just oh you know like open relationship there's a couple and then they can both see people sides it that's not true that's not how it works very a lot of different approaches but it

[00:03:08] it is something that seems to be common in the younger trans community now I don't know how much of that is perception bias because I'm very aware of things I mean that world I tend to know

[00:03:21] people written that world because they're also in that world with me and so with all of this heavy heavy app for how much of this is my you know that thing of being you're in the box you can't see

[00:03:36] outside the box because you're in it yes it's big part of it well let's unpack a bit of it so it's probably amorous actually quite an interesting work because as I guess when I was

[00:03:46] listening to it I was thinking is that many love so many yes part of it there's a many sexual things because amorous can be referred to sexual things but I mean it so sort of well you tell me what it means

[00:04:03] polyamory specifically would you usually refer to multiple relationships so it wouldn't be right it can cover stuff that's purely sexual it's usually if you're using polyamory that's usually referring to it being a relationship thing rather than purely a sexual thing right again it can

[00:04:25] cover that but it's usually more about having multiple you know multiple ongoing relationships they're not always necessarily the same you can have approaches where like you have a front they'll call it primary partner which can look very much like an ordinary minogamous relationship

[00:04:45] and then other partners who are still very important to you but aren't at least going to be seen from the outside on that same level or it can be you know um yeah some of my best friends

[00:04:58] are a problem they're driven they live together they have kids they raise them together you know it is a loving kind of ordinary nuclear family but with three adults in the building and of the map and the legal fact of you have eight two-person marriage

[00:05:22] the difference between them and a two-person you know or the quote unquote ordinary relationship is basically that there's this but yeah they're up three people there yes so there's a lot of different approaches depending on what works the people involved

[00:05:43] and the life circumstances you know it's easy to have a free person right you know if a person you know kind of call relationship if you will live in the same area yeah if one of

[00:05:54] you's up in the other end of the country that's going to affect things as well and I know a lot of people in positions like that as well so I think you're due to really but how is this different

[00:06:07] to what we used to call in the olden days and open relationship out how is it different depends it really depends for some people the difference is the label you put on it

[00:06:22] for a lot of other people it is it kind of an open relationship is usually if you just being you've got this you know the the core couple and then the other relationships are you know transient there may be almost entirely sexual based writing them being a

[00:06:44] romantic relationship where as polyamory covers a lot of stuff where you have more than one you know romantic relationship and often it's not just back or and then a bunch of casual I don't want to call them up because that's very dismissive of some

[00:07:07] you know very real connections but it's much more casual outside of that usually it's all fuzzy you know human relationships and messy things and yeah and it's often the legal bit that makes it complicated isn't it because I'm just thinking

[00:07:28] again you alluded to the idea of having a throttle where legally how does that work because normally marriage is seen in the eyes of the best destiny register of marriages as two people isn't it so it's in the case of the fruble that I know

[00:07:50] two of them are married and that's something that it was a situation that existed before the fruble form and then the rest of it has to be dealt with by careful legal you know

[00:08:09] there's various contract stuff that can be done you know where we're meaning that stuff goes different people who day to day I think a lot of it is effectively it's just three people living

[00:08:21] in a house it doesn't make that much difference but I am not in that position and it's it's difficult for me to talk about two deeply because I don't know yes I can explore that

[00:08:33] I guess you just do walk in the sun you just you're just moving out and mr two different people so so that makes and I guess I guess I can think of I think the attraction is because it's

[00:08:43] almost like people bring I've always said that you know when you write down a list of inequalities you get ended with about twenty things and you think that would probably find people to

[00:08:52] cover off what was different things because it's so rare for one person to have all of that so there's a sort of logic in this about creating an ideal structure that allows people to have

[00:09:03] all the different facets you might need in the an idealized sort of relationship so it says quite clever in a way yes and and it can also be I think there's a lot of kind of

[00:09:13] tendency when when you talk to me like when people think about monogamy they tend to you get this very hierarchical or this person's my you know my partner this person's my best friend but that friendship isn't a relationship yes well it kind of is and it's kind of

[00:09:38] poly people can get a bit there's a reputation of getting a bit preachy about this and a bit kind of this way or our way is better and that's not I'm not gonna make that claim but

[00:09:55] it is a slightly different way of thinking about it of going well why why do I only have to have one you know one person that I can you know cognitive admitted like why is that something that's

[00:10:08] reserved for this one person when you know spending an evening watching a band and having a drink is it's a day right except when it is and I suppose that it implies a sort of

[00:10:25] cognitive capacity to compartmentalize the sort of different types of relationship you have which is interesting with trans people who may have had to go through that process because we've sort of lived compartmentalized lives in our own heads is that why there's a link here or is that

[00:10:44] me just jumping into conclusions hmm I don't know the short answer is I don't know there's a a number of I've heard it said from a number of people that it's because as a trans person you've

[00:10:58] already shed sight of ideas of what you should be so what's one more societal idea of what you should be I I'm not sure I'm convinced by that like I've heard that particularly talks about in terms of

[00:11:15] kink and I knew I was kinky before a realised I was trans right okay um now turns out thinking back there was signs but and it's that thing of no I haven't shed a bunch of

[00:11:35] expectations and then gone oh well I can you know it's shed a few more it's it I don't know I think there is an aspect of maybe we are more fed to look into it yeah others um I might be an age thing

[00:11:53] as well right that you mean what the point you were making before we started recording was I well I just wanted to have many of these new relationships are the preserve of people to a three generation you're good maybe because actually they have the ability to to recreate

[00:12:12] social convention because they're at the beginning you're in that rebellious day of jockey you know you know again students are mental rebel and do things differently and push the barriers for forward and all that sort of stuff and that often continues into 20s and 30s so so it

[00:12:26] makes sense that this would be you know pushing a social convention but actually I mean I was going to say it's okay having your cake in eating it and then I was thinking one actually what's the matter

[00:12:37] of that yeah I mean I it is something that can allow you uh again then the ability to to find and make connections that you you need and enough people need you know it's very easy to

[00:12:56] fall into this thing as well it's all about me you know every relationship is a two way street and I always like to think of holy amra relationships even as being a series of two person

[00:13:09] linkics um because ultimately you can you can kind of break the you can always imagine it has drawn us diagram it's a series of people linked together and not one bigger more for

[00:13:23] this block but it is I think it is important to recognize people you know do do need different things and yes it can be a way for that work it's not for everyone um it can be well I can see that yeah

[00:13:41] you know it has its difficulties um a lot of people likes joke about just scheduling yeah if something is based because that um you know the running joke is that the true secret polyamorous superpower is a abusive google calendar because you're trying to sync up

[00:14:01] four five six different people as schedules yes in order for you to be able to spend time with each other but I can you can see all the he he dea sort of complication so um falling you know sort of

[00:14:17] stereotypically falling in love and suddenly childry rings such like it all that's on the stuff and hormonal processes and that seems to be a lot of opportunity to be heard as well as for

[00:14:29] for joy in the process yes yeah absolutely um every time we open up myself's actual relationship we open ourselves up to our own yeah we have a difference you know we have that's one of

[00:14:47] things we have that's you're not going to think yeah but just saying can be said of any friendship for saying can be said you know anytime you kind of anytime you do anything we open ourselves up to

[00:14:58] potential of her it's just how much you know what ways yeah yeah I'm not gonna pretend it's easy I'm not gonna pretend I'm good to say um yeah but I guess what you're saying to younger trans people

[00:15:12] or just younger people or just people I got by the end is that these are these relationships exist and it's about feeling you way forward and creating something that works for everybody in an

[00:15:22] acquittable sort of way and actually there are people in communities and groups and forums and support networks no doubt for this sort of type of relationship yes construct if I was going to

[00:15:36] recommend anything um my starting point for understanding it in a way that wasn't just I know people who do this yeah people who are who are who have this and it works for them was a book by uh Janet Hardy and Dossie Eastern called the Ethical Slot

[00:15:59] alright even if you come to the end of it and go you know what this isn't for me I would genuinely recommend it especially if they have a chat from jealousy which I think frankly could almost be

[00:16:15] extracted and sent to literally everyone on the planet and I think it would do a lot good just kind of understand because it goes into kind of understanding those feelings and how to deal with them because again

[00:16:26] you do feel this like people like to think oh well you know clearly if you're while the Empress you don't feel jealousy no no right yeah that would be probably my recommendation

[00:16:40] it's not the whole story it's gonna be on the third or fourth edition now but that one is probably the place I recommend as a concrete concrete kind of this is a book you sit there

[00:16:53] read it at the end of it you you're of gained something even if you decide I don't think this is for me and that's you know I want to be very clear here being monogamous going you know polyamorous

[00:17:08] of me is a very very legitimate you know standpoint to take and there is no shame in that I don't want to come across that I'm saying this way is better in any way you know that is not my

[00:17:20] position it works for me it doesn't work for people and that is very very legitimate very you know we're not recommending this all well we're just explaining it in a couple of you

[00:17:32] many a couple of illusions to a king can I that's interesting is that there's often a confusion as certainly in my world when we we went through the process of understanding transcess we didn't

[00:17:45] have a language for it and such like it it was often a big overlap between the sexual world and dressing and cross-stressing and the words like transvesti to a lot sort of stuff and how

[00:17:56] how they what was it male male female male imitators and all these sort of terrible phrases that used to be out there and so forgive anybody forgive me for anybody against upset about these words

[00:18:07] but they were the words so how is king different to the sort of general sexual stuff that anybody from her or experience so king king isn't extremely broad umbrella the freight the term king is basically referring to any non-traditional form of a quite unquote sex or sexual

[00:18:35] activity so it covered you know traditionally generally what people refer to when they think of king they think of fetishism so things like like cross-dressing for sexual kicks which is a thing you know I know this is maybe a little controversial to say in some circles

[00:18:55] because it gets applied to all of us it's not but yeah they're all people who do it and of course and that can that can get complicated if you navigate in those communities but also

[00:19:09] things like you know people are into wearing leather or people who wear leather or latex or basically kind of thing there's just fabric isn't it yeah it's a fabric or fetishism also first to gym fetishism is about materials or kind of it's not about actual stuff around

[00:19:36] particular sexual or quasi sexual acts a lot of times people talk about king what they end up talking about is BDSM so yeah which is about control really isn't it yeah erotic power exchange

[00:19:49] is a bit popular term in that kind of community it's not always about power exchange you know some people enjoy some of it purely as a kind of almost like a massage

[00:20:05] yeah you can do some of this stuff and it's not always sexual again yeah massages are really good example there are people who enjoy some of this you know who enjoy bondage purely as a

[00:20:19] kind of sensual experience in the same way you might go to somewhere to get your shoulders worked on or it could be you know very much part of of what is very definitely sex and anywhere in between

[00:20:34] yeah yeah and I want to again kind of that's one of the messages on what to give here is it doesn't have to be sexual yeah I think one of the things this is a sort of and there's

[00:20:50] there's always a challenge I think when trans people talk about anything to do with sex because they're either the orientation piece which a lot of people think might change as you go through a process

[00:20:58] because of the effect of hormones which I always think is a fascinating view but also there's also some people that's diminished sexual attraction or whatever might be or have very enhanced if you're you know you're dosing up on testosterone so there's this often a feeling of how do

[00:21:15] you integrate a sexual a sex life into into one not onto our sort of new resource of life it's a sense it's such a quite tricky to navigate for a lot of people I would love to have an

[00:21:28] answer to that but as someone who is currently going through that process and going oh my sex life has changed yeah I don't have an answer for that one yet I wish I did

[00:21:45] no it's it is caucused again I don't have a good answer for why it seems to be you've but King Cs is particularly popular with trans people and again I don't know if that's there another of those observer bias things where it's I'm interacting with a lot of

[00:22:06] trans people but a kinky some of it I think I think there's definitely an element particularly if you are online right we're seeing a lot of the online community yeah part of me says

[00:22:19] there are a few prominent trans women who are very definitely into kinky or power to them but we also think a number of prominent online trans voices are also involved in sex work

[00:22:35] yes that's true and I think that may be again kind of skewing what we see because they are not necessarily even interest only interested in it because of sex look but just because they have to talk about it and they have to talk about it quite openly because

[00:22:55] that is what's helping them you know haven't and yeah get groceries and so maybe the stuff that would otherwise be quieter becomes more more online and more public there's a reason and that's interesting because you have you have the commercial side of

[00:23:17] King which is actually what you do to pick it I have a friend who's a dumb nitricks and she she she's quite a compartmentalized about the sexual relationships with the partner and loving and no king and huge amounts of king with it in the commercial world with

[00:23:36] clients and such like and the most imagine if it's real real imaginative stuff that's going on and so and so your point earlier about King being sexual different from sexual activity

[00:23:48] is the point of it isn't it it's okay you can evolve yourself in king but doesn't need to be sex is it it can be an expression of something else yes and I I'm not even necessarily coming

[00:24:01] back from that angle I know some asexual people people have right trust in sex but are very much into stuff within King World because it's for them it's totally separate and that's

[00:24:18] you know that but yes so there are also people who have what we refer to in the creatures vanilla relationships um now again I'm not necessarily huge fan of that term it can come with a lot of judgment you know there's nothing wrong with you know relationships

[00:24:37] do not evolve this stuff and there's a lot to be said for not evolving this stuff because again it's a way to open yourself up to a lot of her both mentally and physically yeah

[00:24:49] you know but it's all can also be extremely rewarding and extremely fun if you're into it and a lot of people use King can a way to be taught the process don't they so that's interesting

[00:25:01] and that's interesting use that word vanilla that terminology I think is quite fascinating because where I ran into this concept was I used a phrase which to me meant one thing and to my colleagues

[00:25:14] who collapsed and to fit at hysterics because I used a phrase carpet munching which to me means uh something quite innocuous and like scenery scenery crashing you know what I'm

[00:25:27] an actor's talk about this but to them they were saying it some sort of it was some sort of sexual thing about people having their head in the carpet and being um and other face and

[00:25:37] and such like whilst they were being you know you can use the rest of it is imagination I'm sure we don't need to go there but I think but I think terminology is quite important here because

[00:25:46] it's it's something where we could run into this subject of buying a steak and I'm wondering it's it's almost like a sort of like a type of code isn't it that if you know a certain term

[00:25:55] you might be talking to another King person who you can buy to use them this terminology can get us up at enter trouble or into some into a new community yes yes watch the hilarity

[00:26:07] anytime uh someone brings up uh CBT yeah and everyone has to work out if they mean fine torture or therapy so doing nasty things to people's genitals or a form of um yeah very cognitive behaviour therapy or if they mean be compulsory basic test for learning how to

[00:26:29] absolutely which is always a funny third option that nobody thinks of until someone points out that's what they meant but yes there are burrow absolutely phrases and you know and kind of any hobby um you can you can think of particularly the King community and

[00:26:49] I think that's worth digging into there is a community for this so I hope you're find it should you wish to and you don't have to remember but should you wish to?

[00:26:56] So there is stuff online um there is a most popular one is a cycle fat life yeah it has its problems I'm not gonna defend it unfortunately it is currently the only

[00:27:10] game in town that I'm aware of um there are online you know but and then there are online communities you know you can find the right people on Twitter on on Twitter all those kind of places

[00:27:25] those do of course have risks as with anything big one with fat life is you can then look for events there is a type of event called a munch yeah if you want to get involved in the community side

[00:27:37] of it munch is a great it is a meetup of Kingston's in a pub or a restaurant or somewhere like that you can turn up generally speaking there's not any kind of play it is purely a social

[00:27:50] meetup for people that happen to be kinky they might talk about kink there is a very good chance they will talk about Star Wars because the other thing that you will quickly start

[00:27:59] realize when you get into the kink community is that it is a community full of nerds and it's god I love it but yeah it's that's why the community side of it but I'm also everyone who's involved in kink's involved in kink community

[00:28:19] but there are a lot of people out there who are out there doing it or out there having an absolute well time and take one look at the idea of turning up to an organized event around people

[00:28:31] involved in this stuff and go no no yeah doing that um yeah and I are having you know sometimes I really cannot blame them yeah but it's like everything is now

[00:28:46] it's about how do we find our tribe isn't it and it may well be that your trans person who doesn't sit well with the rest of the trans brigade and and that's but actually and you're

[00:28:54] interested maybe somewhere else it's about it's finding a place where we can be comfortable being ourselves and whichever aspect of ourselves that might be that I think that's I think that's how taking what you're saying yes yeah and again it's the more I think about it more

[00:29:12] there are parallels with kind of it's kind of like a hobby community there's not that much difference between in a long ways the kink community and like the amateur radio community or you know the ball game in community you you have meetups you find your people and

[00:29:32] it just so happens with with one of those it's about you know tying each other up and wearing a lot of leather and in the other one it's about being real nerds about um which

[00:29:46] is what you're transmitting on and you know but it is yeah it kind of is like that and it is yeah finding your community finding your people yeah absolutely fascinating we're looking

[00:30:01] at it and it's been really fascinating I didn't want to ask you the question that we talked about earlier because I have no idea what might come out so I'll ask you that famous question

[00:30:09] about who black and later on and um I want to I want to find out special servicely for myself a circle for I talked to anybody else about it but it's been really useful and you know good

[00:30:19] look in your own journey obviously and thank you very much if you've got a final thought for trans people who are thinking of on the amoreo ink or anything of those things what's your sort

[00:30:31] of final message don't be afraid to try things um don't be if learn to say yes to opportunities don't you know obviously balances we don't get yourself yeah would be careful but yeah

[00:30:50] you know be prepared to try things and also be fed to go I tried it I didn't like it yeah that's fine I'll try something else um and you know my my history and a lot of

[00:31:02] old been so straight he's littered with I tried it I didn't like it but if he's up thing interested me so I'll go and try that yeah do it enough to be a thing things like

[00:31:12] I've tried it I've met someone they're really interesting and it's not going to do without seeing us to do with something else because it's the power of building networks and that is really important building your confidence really thank you so much for spending time with

[00:31:24] the state I really really appreciate it that's quite alright yeah thanks for listening to this episode of trans vox it's been a joy to have you with us um if you want to um make contact with us

[00:31:42] you can contact us at Jillian at transvox.co.uk and if you'd like to support the work we do please go to patreon and go to page transvox and all of our money goes to our nominate charity

[00:31:56] and Jen you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes which one of the chosen. Our charity is called Beyond Reflections which is a charity that provides support and counseling to trans people non-binary people and their friends and their families across the

[00:32:12] UK and the amazing charity doing some amazing work really important so please if you can give great and if you want to go and have a look at beyond reflections it's beyond hyphen reflections

[00:32:22] not all good okay and but as I say if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing because we love to help the people who are well-pots again if you've got ideas for the show

[00:32:32] things you'd like to ask us questions comments, applause or brick that's feel free to send it all into Jillian at transvox.co.uk and until the next time goodbye bye bye