Transvox - Our reaction to the Supreme Court Ruling - Emergency Episode

[00:00:08] Hi and welcome back to Transvox. It's an emergency episode today. It's the 16th of April 2025 and there's been some really disturbing news this morning in the Supreme Court. And I've invited Abbey Hawker, who is of course a PR agent who I talked to a couple of episodes ago. And I thought it would be quite nice to turn the tables and let Abbey interview me. Transvox can be seen as part of the pushback against the decision today or supplying advice or guidance on to trans people.

[00:00:38] It's all very raw. It's all very in there in the moment. So Abbey, over to you. I'll let you interview me so I can stop thinking. Thanks Gillian. I'm afraid you're going to have to keep thinking, I'm afraid. So how has the announcement this morning left you feeling? There's two things here. The first thing, the announcement has done two things. It said that basically in terms of rights, everything to do with women's rights and women's health and safety is defined around biology rather than gender.

[00:01:04] And the second half of the ruling was a sort of an instruction that this is not a win for either side, that we shouldn't be discriminated. We should still have our rights. But actually, the way that we're looked at is now different to yesterday. And I think that's the challenge. So where I am is thinking as someone who's, unlike everybody else, I'm quite confused at what it means, how it's going to work.

[00:01:29] And candidly, whether this is the beginning of something that could be quite useful because it's so vague and hopeless and unenforceable or it's just taking us down a line of being cancelled as a sort of a community. And I'm not sure which is which yet. I'm very much hoping it's the first, not the second. I guess the key question, I think, in my mind is what the idea of this ruling is to create clarity, as you said.

[00:01:52] So it's intended to remove nebulousness that surrounds, you know, definitions around trans people, which everybody's avoided making certain definitions for obvious reasons. So in your mind, is there a way they could have done this better? Could the Supreme Court have ruled in another way to have made this less nebulous, but also more kind of preempting the challenges that are going to come with the way they have ruled?

[00:02:21] Yeah, I think it's two different things here. Of course, they were ruling on an either or case. So it was either this or that. And you might argue that now we know where we stand. And it's actually quite, it's been quite confusing for us as well, because we've assumed we had rights. Turns out we didn't, that turns out we no longer have. Now, whether that's right or wrong, upside down, right way up, who knows? The fact is there. So now we know what we're dealing with. So you might say that clarity has been good for us as well as everybody else.

[00:02:50] It has massive knock-on implications right across society for us, particularly in the National Health Service, particularly in any place that has to deal with people. And we know that actually this is an issue that was particularly challenging to a specific group of people, not everybody. And so what I want people to really take away from this in the trans world is that the vast majority of people who don't care, still don't care.

[00:03:17] The vast majority of people who hated us and didn't want our existence to be recognised, still think that. And actually, we've got a job now to actually think about, actually, how do we make this work for us as well? Because the system exists in terms of treatment, GRCs, all that nonsense could be changed. And we have a real opportunity because there's going to be change to influence that change. And I don't think we should get too despondent and say, actually, this, because all the balls are up in the air and it seems to be all against us at the moment,

[00:03:46] doesn't mean it has to stay that way. I think that's really important to note, because unfortunately, the way these things get reported is they make it a cis woman, this is a trans woman thing. Instead of being clear that we're talking about a handful of people who are very vocal about this and have very strong opinions, and they make the suggestion that it's women that this ruling protects or women who have an issue with the way in which trans women are defined. But that's just not the case. It is a small number of women.

[00:04:14] And I guess as a cis woman, what worries me most is that trans women will take this as some sort of proof that cis women don't accept trans women. And that's just not the case. No, there are lesbians that don't. There are cis men that don't. There are all sorts of people. It's just a people thing. And I think for me, the big loser is the majority of the population, which are cisgender women, because I think what we have now running is people are going to be challenged in bathrooms.

[00:04:40] So if you're a six foot four woman or a woman with short hair or you don't look conventionally female, you'll be challenged and asked if you're trans. This is happening in the States already. This is not me just inventing this. So what we have to determine is actually what is a female? What should a female look like? All right, that's fair enough, because one of the courts in America have already decided that. And a bunch of white 50 year old men have decided what women should look like, what they should wear, how they should present. And we can guess what that's like. So I think we said this once before, didn't we? Welcome back to court shoes.

[00:05:09] And there you go for you, Abby. That's to look forward to. But this is, and I know this is extreme and sounds extreme to say it like this, but this is what's going on. This is an attack against women. This is not this. And trans people are the way that you go through the law to make the attacks on women appear. Clearly, we've been used for the last period of time in our government, the Tory government as well. There's a bad bit of news over here. Oh, look, a trans athlete. News is good. Oh, we're not going to talk about trans people if their news is bad. Let's talk about that terrible trans thing.

[00:05:39] So it's an evocative thing from the populist right to talk about trans people. It's something that religious people don't like on the whole. And we actually did an episode three or four weeks ago about why don't the right wing like trans people? And a lot of it is about religion and conformity and the role of women and men and the rights that white cis men have lost to women and the fight that women have had to assert their equality in the world.

[00:06:08] And it's weird just getting caught in that because basically if you've got a penis, you're seen as a man irrespective of what hormonal levels you've got, what gender identity you've got. So for some people, that's it. And that's why the threat for trans men is less because, of course, they don't have a penis, except for the ones, of course, that do. And, of course, my real annoyance here is for intersex people who have been fighting forever to get this idea of biology. The people who are intersex are on the physiological, biological side of this.

[00:06:38] And they're clustered into the transgender world. And it is entirely possible to be intersex like the boxers were in the last Olympics, like Custer Semenya was the athlete. Lots of people have been. And they are biological. That's a biological thing. It's not a transgender thing. Yeah, but we're not looking at the details. We're not concerned at the details. We're not concerned with the evidence or the science. Of course not. All we want is the headlines. And that's the problem.

[00:07:02] Look, nobody, and I don't think many trans, if any trans women would condone any violence against women, trans women or any women. We're not the problem. So it's got to be something else, isn't it? It's something else that's going on here. And as someone who was biologically a male who's now a female in terms of the legal world, I really do have a much greater understanding of women's issues. I've lost my white male privilege, let me say.

[00:07:31] I mean, this is not something trivial to lose. And I've lost it. And I have less privilege now than cis women. So now trans people are at the bottom of the pile. However, we're a very good community. We're fragmented. We have lots of intelligent, bright, entrepreneurial people. And I think, actually, if we just start to get the big trans organisations to start coming together, we can start thinking about a coordinated response. Because what matters here and what Trump has shown us is it's not what you're saying. It's the speed you say it at. That's really important.

[00:08:00] We need to come out super fast and say some stuff. I'll stop talking. Based on that, what kind of strategies do you think trans advocates and allies should consider in response to the ruling? So you've spoken about coordination. Yeah. Speed of response. Yeah. First thing is that we have to get to be part of this debate. And that means being sane, cogent, understanding, not hysterical, yelling and starting throwing things left and centre. There's a place for that.

[00:08:28] I think when it comes to policymaking, you have to have people who are in the place with power, with influence, to be able to have a cogent, reasoned argument. And that has to be backed up with law. And that has to be backed up with money. And I think you and I laughed once before and said what we need is a massive funding drive to be able to fund some of the work that needs to be done. And I'd love to just create a fund which says, let's start funding the trans debate rolling forward. It created a crisis moment for us and a moment in the sort of zeitgeist where we can go one

[00:08:58] of two or three different directions. And I think this is a moment where we need to step up. And people like TransVox, I know what the trans probably are going to be talking about this. We're all going to be talking about it. What matters is what we're doing behind the scenes. There's lots of stuff going on behind the scenes on trans health, different initiatives all over the place. And luckily for someone like you, Abby, to be able to say, how do we bring this thing together? I'd like in terms of the trans organisations to get together as soon as possible. I'm very happy to host that through Trans or through you or whatever.

[00:09:27] There's no reason why we couldn't touch base on Saturday morning and say, what are we going to do about this? The great and the good. This is a massive challenge and opportunity for us. I'm free Saturday morning. I'll host a meeting. Who wants to come? So can we talk a little bit about how you think the ruling specifically might impact you? Me? Yeah. You as a trans woman and a bit trans. I just think it's going to do two things.

[00:09:57] The first thing is going to enable the haters and the people who say it's OK. So when I was on LBC this morning, James O'Brien read out the fact that someone who'd rung me, someone who's rung in going, ha ha, calls himself Jillian, clearly a bloke, all that sort of stuff. And all that sort of thing. People are emboldened now to be slightly more trans hostile. And I think that is a problem. And I think the second thing is the effect it's going to have for us on our health and our safety as well.

[00:10:26] Because, of course, we're a highly victimised community. We're highly unsafe. We are the victims of crime and hate crime much more than any other community. And I think walking down the street now is going to be a bit more problematical than it's been for a long time. And things like, which loo can I go in? You know, what do I do this afternoon? That's now become an issue. It's something that I've never had to think about. But now I'm going to have to think about it.

[00:10:55] And I think that's something. So I think one of the things for allies to do is to start just stepping up and saying, you know, those that support us and start helping us and thinking about what we do, giving us access to channels and power bases and structures that we can't access ourselves. And also just maybe just giving a thumbs up every now and then saying, we're on your side. We don't think that. It's very interesting. I've just come off a cruise ship and there were a bunch of Americans who kept saying, we don't agree with Trump.

[00:11:24] And we just want to make it clear. And I think it's not a bad thing for allies to say things like that. It'd be quite nice. I'm going to talk to healthcare professionals. I know some of those are anti-trans, but the vast majority are pro. And we must remember that the vast majority are uncaring or pro us. And I think that's really important that they actually come out and say it. And I think we'll say it and anything you can do like that. But from my own perspective this afternoon, I'm going to be really careful where I go down my house street.

[00:11:51] Look, I'm afraid all the people with disabilities, you're going to see lots of trans women in your toilets because that might be the only safe place for us as well. One of the narratives that I've heard this morning has been about, because obviously there's been a lot of talk of it on the news. One of the recurring themes has been about how this ruling is going to affect cisgender women. And you touched on it a little bit earlier. Can we explore that a little bit more? Because I think that it's really important for people to understand.

[00:12:20] Trans women are, trans people in general are a minority group, tiny group of people. And I think sometimes the focus on, as you said, a lot of people don't really care. There's people, there are some very vocal people who capitalise the conversation. And everybody else, there are people who are supportive but don't really say anything because it's not really about them. And I feel it's really important to make people understand that it will be about them.

[00:12:48] Because I feel that is the sort of penny dropping moment in which cis women will go, oh, actually, I'd just been to the loo and someone, you know, I'm a woman of a certain age. Maybe I don't, I certainly don't dress like a, I don't wear the court shoes. I don't wear how an American cis white man of a certain age might like me to dress or maybe not, given how old I am. But I think that it's really important that cis women understand that this impacts them and how it impacts them. I think it's right. There's a big picture thing here and a small picture thing.

[00:13:18] The big picture is we know the playbook for this. We know that if you think in the big picture that white male men of a certain age think that their powers are being defrayed, they're losing their agency, they're losing our voices. So they've created documents like Project 2025 in the States from the Heritage Foundation. They've got, there's documentation from the religious fundamentalists who've been funding work in this area right across Europe.

[00:13:43] We know there are people for religious beliefs and for social beliefs who believe that there is a role for cisgendered women and it is a single role and that's it. And one of the classic things in right-wing politics is that the simplest way to create lots of jobs in America is to have our older women going to stay at home and have babies. That said, that's in Project 25. So let's be really clear that the rights of women are going to be rolled back.

[00:14:10] One of the sort of statements in America is that thing about, again, all written down in their playbook is about repealing certain elements of the constitution, including rights. All right. So we've had our rights evolved today. So now have a precedent for rolling back minority rights. We're already seeing moves to restrict gay marriage. OK, so that's next. That's next on the playbook. Oddly enough, a Tory initiative bringing that to power. So what's after that? Who's left?

[00:14:37] And it's that classic thing about, I was in my minority, they came for me and now are not here. And now they'll come for me. Who's next? I didn't say anything. Yeah. But that's that classic stage. I can't remember who that's from as someone much cleverer than me. But at a very simple level, you go to a toilet. And let's think about it. You've been to, I'm sure, lots of public bathrooms in your entire life. Swimming pools, all that. How many thousands of people, how many thousands of trans women have you ever bumped into? Most people have never seen them. It's really interesting you ask that question.

[00:15:06] I am waiting for the moment. I'm waiting for the moment that I go to Marlabone Station, which I travel through quite often and which is obviously a connecting point for a lot of people. Never seen a trans woman in the toilet. And I literally, the day that I go in and see a trans woman, I'll be like super supportive. And if anyone tries anything, I will be the first one to spend up and push back. But I just don't see anyone. I don't get that opportunity. The thing is, Abby, you're saying something really, and this is the problem with the world.

[00:15:36] So there are a group of trans people who, this is a horrible phrase in our world, which is called passing. And there are lots of trans people who pass. They've been trans for a long time. I know lots of them. A charity I work for has many people. I envy them. They've got wonderful voices. They look great. It's, it's, and of course, you just don't know. There are a lot, what's interesting about the fact is that you've never seen them, but you've probably not known that you've met, there have been trans people in your toilet because you wouldn't see them.

[00:16:05] Now, people like me who are a bit older, transitioning later, we are obviously trans. I've always said, I'm not a woman. I'm a trans woman. And I'm very proud to be a trans woman. It's clear I don't pass. I don't have the voice. But legally and everything else, I am a woman. But I still say I'm a trans woman. And you would spot me in the toilet. And I, and a lot of people have, they came up to me and said, hi, and just said, hi, how are you? The way that anybody would say. I've always said that all trans women want to be is just treated the way anyone else want to be.

[00:16:35] I don't want anyone coming up and saying, oh, you're really brave. I'm not really interested in that. I just want people to go, oh, have you seen? Oh, I like those shoes. Oh, the sort of things that people talk about are the things that we want to talk about. They're usually the last and least important thing about me is being trans. And it's the thing that bothers people most about me. And there you go. Yeah. Just for clarity, if someone passes, to use that horrible phrase, no one's going to give them crap anyway in the toilet. Exactly.

[00:17:03] It's only people who are, who could be considered recognizably trans. They're the ones that get. And I think one of the challenges as well is for the non-binary communities. And, you know, what's interesting about some of the younger non-binary people are much more out there in terms of fashion and dressing and defying conventions. I really admire them. I think they're absolutely marvellous. But people in my age group can actually take the flack for those people. And I think we have to be in that place where we can start making change happen. And what we have to do next is make it work.

[00:17:33] And all we can do as trans people is not get bent out of shape about it and actually think to ourselves, OK, so what are we going to do? And when do we go next? And I think it's a lot up to a lot of the trans charities to sort of take a lead on this and to do something. And there are a lot of people out there who I think are really second guessing themselves, thinking maybe I shouldn't transition at the moment. That for a lot of people is going to lead to real problems because the problems that you have in gender dysphoria are not going to go away.

[00:18:02] So one of the things you need to think about, again, is going to organisations and charities that support people who are questioning or want to transition but can't or want to do it in secret or want to understand the strategies to be able to get that sense of who you are but operate in a different world. And I think there is going to be a lot of advice and guidance needed to help trans people over the next few months. Can we finish by giving people a bit of direction in terms of where they might be able to go in order to get that help if people are listening?

[00:18:32] I must admit, we always sponsor a charity called Beyond Reflections, which is beyond-reflections.org.uk. People are more than welcome to come to us. Ourselves at Trans, we are very happy to listen to anybody that wants to talk, to do some counselling if needed. That's absolutely no problem. And there are loads of charities. There's loads of local charities, national charities. There are people out there who are there to help. There's Trans in North West, North East. There's B in Newcastle. There's loads.

[00:19:01] There's tons of us out there. We're all just going to be standing ready, I'm sure, to help anybody. So is there anything you want to leave people with on the back of the morning this morning? Any kind of takeaway you want people to end on? Yeah. Be sad. Get angry. Let's get even. By getting together. Thanks, Gillian.

[00:19:27] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at Gillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity. And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling

[00:19:54] to trans people, non-binary people and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So please, if you can, give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say, if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments,

[00:20:22] applause, or brick baths, feel free to send it all in to Gillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.