Transvox - Joseph Harwood drops in to talk about the Beauty Industry

[00:00:06] Hey and welcome back to Transvox and as always every now and then Joseph Harwood pops in for a gossip and a chat. Often we've been talking about makeup and all sorts of different bits and bobs but I thought it'd be just good to catch up because Joseph's sort of been, your face has been everywhere Josia isn't it? What's been going on?

[00:00:26] Hello! Yes I'm back and I'm so happy to be here again. I always love our fabulous chats. It's been like an unbelievable Pride season and just finished British Beauty Week and I've been non-stop. I've been traveling all over the show, been booked all over Europe for various different things and then I've come back here in the last week. I've actually been sick with a bug so I've not even got to see any of the fabuluses in person but I've been part of the British Beauty Week campaign so I've been all over these digital

[00:00:55] billboards in the stations and on the black cabs so I'm kind of in horror and in celebration.

[00:01:02] So what is the British Beauty Week? I have to forgive me, it's probably you're familiar with the totally but I'm afraid it's passed me by.

[00:01:08] Sure, so I work with the British Beauty Council that I may have mentioned in a couple of the previous podcasts about beauty because I noticed that there was no one like me in leadership roles. There was no one that I could go to for support. There was no unions.

[00:01:23] And what the British Beauty Council essentially does is it's founded by Millie. Now people probably remember her from Ruby and Millie which was a brand back in the day. She was the Ruby Hammer and the fabulous Millie Kendall.

[00:01:36] And Millie's founded this sort of non-profit organization called the British Beauty Council which has got all of the best and biggest makeup artists and beauty experts and people that work in media, people that work in hair, all the things you can know, all the brilliant people you can imagine.

[00:01:52] And what they basically do is they've gone to like they did this huge campaign in the lockdown where they went down in street and they said that the British Beauty industry is massive, we need to have support because obviously no one could work in the lockdown.

[00:02:06] They've done so much to really bring attention to the needs of the beauty industry as it's evolving.

[00:02:12] And what I've been doing in the background since 2018, which I think I've spoken about on here before, but I've been trying to get things more visually representative so you can see different types of people in advertisements, you can see more ERG support behind the scenes in the beauty industry.

[00:02:26] And I'm booked all the time to work as a consultant. So I get to go into Estee Lauder or Pooge and these like corporate umbrellas that own all the makeup brands.

[00:02:36] And I get to say, look, we're living in 2024. The representation's not there. The support and needs of trans and gender non-conforming people are not there. Let's improve this.

[00:02:45] And what the British Beauty Council does is they kind of have a network of the best of the best and we get things done.

[00:02:52] So I'm part of the DEI board and as part of the DEI board, I get to work with different founders and we get to do monthly meetings about like how we can improve things in the beauty industry.

[00:03:02] And it's a nonprofit, so it's not something that I'm paid to do. It's something that's really just...

[00:03:07] I wanted to really kind of like explain to them that there has been so much that we haven't caught up with, like especially when it comes to different elements of the beauty industry.

[00:03:17] Like there's certain things that I don't personally encounter. Like if you were a masculine presenting person or a trans man, but you went into a bar that is for your haircuts, are there facilities there for you to use and things?

[00:03:30] Like that didn't even cross my mind, but it's been brought up. There's been things like there's loads of companies that are trying to look inclusive by booking a range of people of color to star in their adverts, but they don't employ anyone behind the scenes.

[00:03:44] There's all these obstacles that are brought up all the time in our meetings and we are basically trying to challenge the status quo and improve things, make things better.

[00:03:52] And British Beauty Week is essentially doing what London Fashion Week does.

[00:03:56] So instead of actually being focused on the brands that are selling their products in clothes, we're actually looking at brands that are working all throughout the year, but are specifically building like pop-up stores specifically for British Beauty Week.

[00:04:09] So it's actually relatively new, which is why most people haven't heard about it.

[00:04:13] But it's a massive, massive, massive event within the beauty industry and it's bringing all different elements and corners of the industry together.

[00:04:22] And part of the campaign to launch it this year was to include some of the top people in all kind of corners of the beauty industry and I was one of them.

[00:04:29] So that's the end of my spiel.

[00:04:34] Frances, I see. So basically it's been a, like you said, London Fashion Week, but on to do with beauty. That's fascinating.

[00:04:40] Yes.

[00:04:41] So were you there? What were you up to? What was it all about?

[00:04:45] So normally what I do is I go up to the service events because they've got a trade event, which is kind of for internal stuff, and they normally book me to do some panels.

[00:04:53] And this year I was really, really excited to work with the TikTok panel.

[00:04:57] I wanted to come up and see it.

[00:04:58] And I also wanted to come up to see Alex Box, who's a makeup artist I love, who's developing a new beauty program called V-Matics, which is basically like you can paint digitally onto a face, but it's more sort of like hyper real than you've seen before.

[00:05:14] And what it gives you is also a little bit of protection over your design because you can export the design as a PDF.

[00:05:20] So those are the two things that I was really interested in going to. But I've been sick with the bug. I've been so ill for like a week that I've missed all the events.

[00:05:29] I've not seen any of the billboards. I've not seen any of these photographs. And I'm like, oh my God, it's my beautiful two nieces who are literally the light of my life.

[00:05:37] I adore them so much. But every single time my big one goes back to school, she brings home like all of these diseases from these kids.

[00:05:44] So I've been in bed. I've been so ill for like two weeks now. I've been so sick. So I missed everything.

[00:05:53] Damn me. It's also the way, isn't it? You get burned out. That's the trouble.

[00:05:56] Yes, I'm still advocating for it, though, because I think it's so important.

[00:06:00] And it's great to, I think, specifically for the audience of Trans Rocks, but to know that I am trying my best to advocate for us in all these spaces.

[00:06:08] Yes, it is interesting. I'm just looking at the website and it has a section called Beauty Industry That Looks Like You.

[00:06:15] And it is interesting, isn't it, that maybe this is unfair, but there's lots of young people and maybe that's maybe that's right.

[00:06:26] But there are very few. I'm thinking as an older trans woman, you know, this this sort of I often think that the beauty industry is not for me.

[00:06:33] You know, even though I'm even though I desperately need it, it is quite odd how the representation of a lot of people on there is.

[00:06:42] There's some older cis men on it, I suppose, but you don't very rarely see older trans women, I suppose.

[00:06:47] Maybe maybe we're just not pretty enough. I don't know.

[00:06:49] No, that's not true. You're fabulous and gorgeous.

[00:06:52] But there there is what we actually wanted to do is not necessarily a representation campaign, but actually we put together a census.

[00:06:58] So we did. And it's been massively well received.

[00:07:04] We I was pushing and pushing and pushing. You may have said it on my socials, but we were doing like this survey that basically accumulated as much data as we can from people that don't feel seen.

[00:07:14] So anyone that felt like that, like we would say, come on, feedback to this, because once we get that data, we can then go back to the we can go back to the government and basically say, look, this is what we see.

[00:07:25] This is the information we've got. And actually all of the top leaders last week mostly are in an older demographic.

[00:07:31] They've just been to speak to the prime minister.

[00:07:35] So we've they are definitely that age is actually one that's been tackled more.

[00:07:41] So I'm still trying to fight for the discrimination part against trans and gender non-common people at all,

[00:07:49] because I find this and this is my bugbear within what I do.

[00:07:53] And I find it very, very, very annoying.

[00:07:55] And it's actually a massive trigger for me.

[00:07:58] And it's when I am because I don't know if it's because I look younger than I am or it's because I am just considered.

[00:08:07] People may not know the whole history of my work because I haven't been focusing necessarily on doing 2024 style content.

[00:08:14] And people just look at what they are showing.

[00:08:16] So if I'm not doing that type of content, they don't know my work.

[00:08:19] They might not be familiar with it.

[00:08:20] But if I enter a room and I'm amongst my peers in the beauty industry,

[00:08:25] they would never, never 10 times out of 10 put me down as what I do.

[00:08:30] They would assume that I was an influencer that started five years ago,

[00:08:34] that's in a costume, that wanted to do it to become famous.

[00:08:38] And they don't care the fact that I've been doing it for 20 years,

[00:08:41] that I'm trained in all the elements of my job that I'm trained in.

[00:08:45] I can make makeup in the lab,

[00:08:46] that I've done the DEI guidelines for the biggest companies in the world.

[00:08:50] They don't care that I've been working with other industries like beauty tech and I sit on AI boards.

[00:08:55] They don't have any interest or perspective that I could be doing that.

[00:09:00] And what that boils down to at the end of the day is they're not going to pay me the same.

[00:09:03] And it's such a frustration for me because when I go into situations where I've spoken to other kind of brands,

[00:09:14] so for example, there's a lot of the, they call it, what do they call it?

[00:09:17] The six unicorns of Manchester or something,

[00:09:19] which is like those businesses like Auto Trader and the Huck Group.

[00:09:24] Well, when I speak to those brands and I see like, for example, Beauty Bay,

[00:09:29] they've done a collaboration with a creator called Made by Mitchell.

[00:09:33] And the person that organized this was someone that I work with.

[00:09:37] Now, I was told the behind the scenes of this.

[00:09:39] Now, this young man, he's a cisgender young man.

[00:09:41] He's absolutely amazing, talented.

[00:09:44] And the generation below me on social media hasn't actually reached the same quantity of people,

[00:09:49] but is equally as talented, if not more so.

[00:09:52] I think he's absolutely brilliant.

[00:09:54] And that company knew that if it was a boy in makeup, they would get more of a return.

[00:10:01] That's what they said to me.

[00:10:02] And that's what the PR said to me that I spoke to.

[00:10:04] So when I said, well, why don't we do a collaboration together?

[00:10:08] Because I'm also in this industry with the same reach.

[00:10:11] They would not invest the same money into me and do a palette with me.

[00:10:15] And why that was is because they had not seen an example of someone that was trans or gender nonconforming doing it before.

[00:10:23] So they don't put money into things that I can prove to be successful.

[00:10:28] So this is no criticism of him at all.

[00:10:32] It's a criticism of the lack of people like me doing it.

[00:10:36] So when I did my match collection and people saw how successful that was,

[00:10:40] and then this year we launched a box called Latest in Beauty, which sold out in 10 days.

[00:10:44] It's been their fastest ever seller.

[00:10:46] I've had to prove every single time what my worth is instead of being given the same respect as someone that's done this for 20 years would be given.

[00:10:56] And I don't feel like I should have to consistently introduce myself again and again and again.

[00:11:00] I think people should have some sort of level of, not even just like a perception of you,

[00:11:07] but they should be giving you the respect.

[00:11:09] They shouldn't come with a preconceived notion that you're not qualified.

[00:11:14] And I think like in every other industry you can do, you can become like,

[00:11:18] if you're in medicine, you can study to become a nurse or a doctor,

[00:11:21] and then you can become a surgeon or an expert surgeon.

[00:11:24] They seem to, in this industry, whether it's not just beauty, it's more like artistic industry.

[00:11:30] They don't let you accumulate your value.

[00:11:34] So every single four years, there's been a new crop of trans people that have come out,

[00:11:40] and they've tried to completely erase all evidence of the crop before.

[00:11:47] And if I wasn't clever enough to have run my own business,

[00:11:50] and if I was working with a management company where all my income was sourced from them getting me work,

[00:11:55] I would have been effed over three or four times.

[00:11:58] I kid you not.

[00:11:59] Because the people that came up with me, like when I started,

[00:12:02] there was a model called Andrea Paget, superstar trans person.

[00:12:05] There was a singer called Sharifa Pengo who transitioned from female to male,

[00:12:10] and they were like one of the most amazing singers in the world.

[00:12:14] When have these people ever even mentioned in any context of trans people today?

[00:12:21] But it's like you have to really, really, really be so strategic,

[00:12:27] because the minute that there is a new younger person in,

[00:12:30] like they've introduced a new supporter called Alex Kinsani,

[00:12:34] who looks nearly identical to Andrea.

[00:12:37] And I just think like this is what's, so to me,

[00:12:40] the biggest issue that I think we've got to face in all of these industries,

[00:12:43] and I think it's not just in the beauty industry,

[00:12:45] it's in general, is to actually bring together a network.

[00:12:49] So it's like, this is the thing I've been trying to work on behind the scenes.

[00:12:52] It's like, I want to bring together some sort of LGBT network,

[00:12:56] where instead of people being ignorant,

[00:12:58] because people might just not know what you've done,

[00:13:01] and that's absolutely fine.

[00:13:02] But if there is like, not like a resume diary or something

[00:13:06] that kind of gives profiles of what you've done,

[00:13:09] but just informs people a little bit of all that you've accumulated,

[00:13:13] you can then direct them to this and say like,

[00:13:16] look, you might not know my work, but have a look at this.

[00:13:19] This is what I've done.

[00:13:21] This is all the money that I've made from doing this.

[00:13:23] And we need to work together on kind of like informing people,

[00:13:26] because I promise you now, every single time I walk into a room,

[00:13:30] they underestimate what I can do,

[00:13:33] and they don't allow me the same equity as other people.

[00:13:36] And it is so frustrating,

[00:13:37] because I've done so much for other businesses

[00:13:39] and made them loads of equity.

[00:13:40] And I shouldn't be in that position.

[00:13:42] If I was disgendered, or if I was perceived as disgendered,

[00:13:45] I would never even be having this conversation.

[00:13:50] Interesting.

[00:13:51] Because I was wondering, as you were chatting there,

[00:13:53] I was just wondering whether that's common,

[00:13:55] because there's something that I think,

[00:13:57] which is a modern phenomenon,

[00:13:58] which is this replacement of talent.

[00:14:03] Because it's always been the case, isn't it?

[00:14:04] Every young generation has always brought forth young talent,

[00:14:08] and it sort of replaces what's been there before,

[00:14:10] and people get knocked out.

[00:14:12] And you see older people who come through that curve,

[00:14:16] and they get to their 50s and 60s,

[00:14:17] and then suddenly they're seen as venerable and elders,

[00:14:20] and then suddenly they come back again, don't they?

[00:14:23] But I always wonder if it's the same process

[00:14:25] that's always been happening,

[00:14:26] but it's just so much faster now with the creative industries

[00:14:29] because of social media.

[00:14:31] I don't know.

[00:14:32] I think that they figured out that there is a salacious angle

[00:14:35] to tearing people down,

[00:14:37] and they make more money on an up-and-down storyline

[00:14:39] than they do letting someone build and build and build.

[00:14:43] Because even with that Dylan Mulvaney,

[00:14:44] who's the six-to-carder transition

[00:14:46] and documented their transition over a year,

[00:14:48] or whatever it was,

[00:14:49] that agency, CAA,

[00:14:52] they actually worked with me.

[00:14:54] So when I was working in America,

[00:14:56] there was two other people that I was paired with.

[00:14:58] So there was two cisgendered boys that did make up.

[00:15:01] They were not trans at all.

[00:15:02] And they worked with us.

[00:15:05] They took us all there.

[00:15:06] They wanted to brand us as like this brand new three superstars around 2015.

[00:15:11] I didn't feel like it was authentic.

[00:15:13] I thought that these people were not doing the same jobs as me.

[00:15:16] They weren't already established.

[00:15:18] They didn't have an audience.

[00:15:19] They were being kind of pushed upon the audience.

[00:15:22] And CAA didn't want to work with me unless I did a masculine look.

[00:15:27] And they said,

[00:15:28] you can't do any more female transformations

[00:15:30] because I was known for doing all the celebrity transformations.

[00:15:32] They said, do Justin Bieber.

[00:15:34] And then when I said,

[00:15:35] I don't want to do Justin Bieber,

[00:15:37] why would I have it?

[00:15:37] How can I do a Justin Bieber makeup tutorial?

[00:15:40] That just sounds absolutely ridiculous by my ears.

[00:15:43] But I was doing Grace Jones or like Marilyn Monroe.

[00:15:46] I wasn't doing Justin Bieber.

[00:15:49] But they had a strategy of what they wanted to do.

[00:15:52] They wanted to have like a built-in QVC for their celebrity clients.

[00:15:58] So they wanted to have like these boys in makeup

[00:16:00] that would not be in the same lane as someone like Selena Gomez.

[00:16:06] So when Selena Gomez needs to market her brand,

[00:16:10] which is beauty,

[00:16:11] they can then get the boys in makeup to bring it onto their platform,

[00:16:15] sell it for them.

[00:16:16] And they're not going to take the spot of the celebrity quote unquote.

[00:16:20] So they obviously knew exactly what they were doing.

[00:16:23] And I'm not saying this because I think of myself highly

[00:16:27] or anything like this,

[00:16:27] but I could be in a situation with the Selena Gomez.

[00:16:30] And I'm sure most people would buy makeup from me

[00:16:33] rather than Selena Gomez

[00:16:35] because I can do makeup more competently.

[00:16:38] The boys would not get that same reaction.

[00:16:41] Do you see what I'm saying?

[00:16:42] Because they wouldn't be deceived as a crossover.

[00:16:45] So they knew exactly what they were doing.

[00:16:47] And CAA is the people that are behind the Dylan Mulvaney career.

[00:16:53] And they booked her to do a Cause Light or whatever it is,

[00:16:57] a beer social media commercial,

[00:16:59] which is so popular with the rights.

[00:17:02] And then let her loose to the lions

[00:17:04] and then offered no support or feedback.

[00:17:08] So they collected all the money from it.

[00:17:10] They got all the controversy.

[00:17:11] And now she's not doing anything.

[00:17:14] So they know what to do.

[00:17:15] They know what they're doing.

[00:17:16] They make more money tearing someone down,

[00:17:18] building them up and tearing them down

[00:17:19] and then replace them with someone new

[00:17:21] because she's now no longer the girl that Emma's talking about

[00:17:24] with the money invested in the PR or whatever.

[00:17:28] And that's how they're going to do it.

[00:17:30] And they're going to probably introduce a new young person to come in.

[00:17:32] But they've done it with so many people,

[00:17:34] especially in America.

[00:17:35] Like there's that TV show about that young child girl called Jazz.

[00:17:38] She's just been completely left to her own devices

[00:17:41] without any of the support.

[00:17:42] It's like the only people that have been really good

[00:17:45] is World of Wonder who do drag race.

[00:17:47] And they've always been, because they're LGBT,

[00:17:49] they've got more of a system in place to support LGBT people.

[00:17:53] But it's like you're not allowed to accumulate things

[00:17:57] because you should be able to evolve.

[00:17:59] Like, I'm sorry, there's been so many celebrities

[00:18:00] that have gone on from a TV show,

[00:18:03] they've launched a music career,

[00:18:04] they've gone on to do a brand,

[00:18:06] the brand's taken off and they're focusing more on the brand

[00:18:08] than they are on entertainment or whatever.

[00:18:11] You're not allowed to do that in any structure if you are trans.

[00:18:16] You have to always, always, always.

[00:18:18] It's not even replaced.

[00:18:21] Because no one's coming out after you.

[00:18:24] They just want to use you to show that they're doing something good.

[00:18:28] And have you noticed this in the UK?

[00:18:30] Like, with all the LGBT magazines,

[00:18:33] where are all the trans people?

[00:18:36] There's like, I've never been invited to a Gay Times event.

[00:18:39] I've never been invited to an Attitude event.

[00:18:41] And they, I think when they started to use non-binary

[00:18:45] and say non-binary was exactly kind of the same category

[00:18:49] as a trans person that's been through medical transition

[00:18:52] and things like that,

[00:18:54] they started to book people who were using pronouns like they, them,

[00:18:59] but were not in any way experiencing gender dysphoria

[00:19:03] or could be perceived as transgender.

[00:19:08] So there's a guy called Nick,

[00:19:10] I think his name is Nicola,

[00:19:11] who's just come out last week

[00:19:13] and said he's no longer using they, them pronouns

[00:19:15] in the same way that Demi Lovato, the pop singer did.

[00:19:17] It's like, it's just been such like a chaotic situation.

[00:19:22] And I think like, it's so frustrating to me

[00:19:25] because I've been doing me for 20 years now.

[00:19:28] And it's like watching this come into this last 10 years.

[00:19:32] Do you feel the same?

[00:19:33] Because it's like, I've just been so frustrated.

[00:19:35] It's not like about my personal opinions of anything at all.

[00:19:39] It's just the frustration I feel by knowing how this is operated.

[00:19:45] And it's like, I've seen the same people that are running

[00:19:49] and the campaigns for people that are,

[00:19:52] look, Demi Lovato's just announced that they feel they, them,

[00:19:56] which is absolutely fabulous, but she doesn't.

[00:20:01] It's weird, isn't it?

[00:20:03] I just wonder if it's the nature of fast fashion,

[00:20:05] fast cosmetics, the beauty industries.

[00:20:09] The thing is, it's a massive machine, isn't it?

[00:20:12] That sort of swallows people up and spits them out, really.

[00:20:14] It's hard to be independent in that world, I guess,

[00:20:19] unless you have a great agent, I suppose.

[00:20:21] It is.

[00:20:22] And it's the amount of money they're willing to put into your career.

[00:20:27] Like, there was a person that was doing their Mac collection

[00:20:30] before I was doing my Mac collection.

[00:20:32] And I was really excited to meet them because I thought,

[00:20:35] oh my God, there's a new non-binary person that's come up

[00:20:39] and is really going to set the precedent for the younger generation.

[00:20:42] I was really impressed with the creativity I saw.

[00:20:45] And then when I asked the team at Mac when we were shooting my collection,

[00:20:48] I said, oh, how was it with this person?

[00:20:50] I'm so excited to see how they're doing and what they're going to be doing next.

[00:20:53] When did they come out as trans?

[00:20:56] They went, oh, they don't.

[00:20:57] They're not trans.

[00:20:58] They're a man.

[00:20:58] They just use non-binary pronouns in front of the media.

[00:21:03] And I said, wait, wait, wait.

[00:21:04] Tell me this again.

[00:21:05] Tell me this again.

[00:21:07] What did you just say?

[00:21:08] And this is when I was like, how can we, like, this can't be real.

[00:21:14] This can't be like, how can you put out the PR release and say,

[00:21:19] this person is a they them.

[00:21:22] And then in the same thing, tell me that they are,

[00:21:26] they identify exclusively as a man.

[00:21:30] I was like gobsmacked by it.

[00:21:31] And I found out later that their family is all part of the industry.

[00:21:35] The dad's got an officer for making a documentary.

[00:21:37] So it's like, it's,

[00:21:38] it's a bit of like a cult of the traveling circus kind of thing.

[00:21:43] When you get into this like situations.

[00:21:45] And I think what I'm so,

[00:21:46] I don't know how I've managed to infiltrate so many things,

[00:21:49] but I'm so grateful that I can see it and then come back to real life and

[00:21:52] say, look, all of this is absolute nonsense.

[00:21:55] They're all making it up because you would never believe the things that I've

[00:21:59] heard specifically around the,

[00:22:01] the idea of marketing people as non-binary.

[00:22:04] Cause it's just,

[00:22:05] it just invalidates.

[00:22:07] I think so many people,

[00:22:09] cause there are so many people that I think look at this and see it as

[00:22:13] just a complete and utter confusion.

[00:22:15] They don't understand it.

[00:22:17] They don't humanize the thing.

[00:22:18] And I think that the inauthenticity of what people have been picking up on has

[00:22:23] done so much damage.

[00:22:24] And it's so frustrating that I think it's that part that's caused the lack of

[00:22:31] ability to accumulate your quote unquote value.

[00:22:35] I think if there was some real genuine reality documentations of people that

[00:22:41] came out as trans and were just authentically showing what they were doing.

[00:22:45] And they were allowed to be seen by a lot of people because there's been

[00:22:48] projects like that,

[00:22:49] but they've not been distributed even disclosure on Netflix,

[00:22:51] that documentary,

[00:22:53] they said they had to put more money into getting it onto Netflix and making

[00:22:56] the product and actually what Netflix paid.

[00:23:00] Like that,

[00:23:01] like this is not going to change things.

[00:23:03] It needs to be,

[00:23:05] we need to all come together,

[00:23:06] I think and build a sort of like LGBT union.

[00:23:11] I was speaking about this with some of my friends and thinking about like,

[00:23:13] how can we like really strategize how to get this,

[00:23:17] this changed?

[00:23:18] Cause it's to me,

[00:23:20] it feels like we're in a moment where all of this is falling apart a little

[00:23:24] bit.

[00:23:26] But it could just be that industry.

[00:23:29] I don't know.

[00:23:30] I think it's more so to do with the political stuff.

[00:23:33] I think it's like,

[00:23:34] cause when so many people have been talking about trans as a talking point in

[00:23:37] the politics,

[00:23:40] it's not,

[00:23:41] it's like the Western perception of who trans people are.

[00:23:47] I think it's like,

[00:23:48] I think we're reaching a change.

[00:23:50] And I think people are really like,

[00:23:53] if you look at all of these people that were,

[00:23:56] express themselves as non-binary or transgender in the last three months,

[00:24:01] particularly have now said they no longer identify as they them.

[00:24:05] There's been multiple people in the last three months and the way that they

[00:24:10] haven't woven any new stories going forward.

[00:24:14] It's like,

[00:24:14] there's been no introduction of like brand new projects by trans people.

[00:24:18] Like there's,

[00:24:19] there's not been.

[00:24:20] To me,

[00:24:22] I,

[00:24:22] cause I'm like,

[00:24:23] I've always got my eyes to what's going on with the trans community.

[00:24:25] Cause I want to see more people win.

[00:24:27] But I genuinely think that unless we all get together and we've got some sort

[00:24:32] of really brilliant strategic people involved,

[00:24:36] this is going to go a bit catastrophized.

[00:24:39] I don't know.

[00:24:40] I think it's just me being a bit sort of catastrophizing,

[00:24:42] but I think there's something's changing at the moment.

[00:24:45] I've got,

[00:24:45] I feel it with everything.

[00:24:47] Sorry to go on this like consciousness.

[00:24:48] I mean,

[00:24:49] sometimes it's,

[00:24:50] sometimes it's just the pendulum,

[00:24:51] isn't it?

[00:24:52] Because we had a,

[00:24:53] we had a,

[00:24:54] and I think this is,

[00:24:55] it's interesting,

[00:24:55] isn't it?

[00:24:56] When you look back at the sort of gay community,

[00:24:57] the,

[00:24:57] the eighties and seventies,

[00:24:59] you probably don't remember this,

[00:25:00] you know,

[00:25:00] it all swang in our direction and it swung away again.

[00:25:03] And then,

[00:25:04] you know,

[00:25:04] suddenly 2005 to,

[00:25:06] you know,

[00:25:06] when trans people were everywhere,

[00:25:08] people winning Eurovision and we were everywhere.

[00:25:10] And then the pendulum swung away.

[00:25:13] And of course you're right politically.

[00:25:15] But there is no,

[00:25:16] there is no sort of guiding voice in the trans world.

[00:25:20] And what's happening is the legislation used against trans people will attack the queer population in a way.

[00:25:26] It's attacking the mainstream female population as well.

[00:25:28] So it's,

[00:25:29] you know,

[00:25:30] I've talked about this for a little while and,

[00:25:32] you know,

[00:25:32] I've talked to other trans and other queer organizations and there,

[00:25:36] there is a general reluctance at the moment to put one's head above the parapet because there's so much backlash.

[00:25:42] And I think it's.

[00:25:43] That's the thing that I've been feeling.

[00:25:45] That's the feeling of fear from people that were,

[00:25:50] previously excited to ally.

[00:25:53] Yeah.

[00:25:53] And the thing is,

[00:25:54] you know,

[00:25:54] what,

[00:25:55] and that shows that these people were never allies.

[00:25:57] They were just,

[00:25:57] you know,

[00:25:59] riding,

[00:25:59] riding along the back of,

[00:26:01] you know,

[00:26:02] the surfing the next flag,

[00:26:03] weren't they?

[00:26:03] And,

[00:26:04] you know,

[00:26:04] whether it's non-binary or trans or queer or whatever it might be,

[00:26:07] that that's the nature of people.

[00:26:08] I mean,

[00:26:09] people,

[00:26:09] people are very happy to make money when times are good.

[00:26:12] And then they sort of depart when times are bad.

[00:26:15] And that is the actual definition of what an ally is,

[00:26:17] isn't it?

[00:26:18] They're with you when times things turn against you.

[00:26:20] They're not just clapping and applauding.

[00:26:22] You know,

[00:26:23] they're for you and with you.

[00:26:24] And I think,

[00:26:26] I think companies have,

[00:26:28] I think companies are taking fright with what's going on in America.

[00:26:31] Very much so.

[00:26:31] I mean,

[00:26:32] the anti-trans legislation in America and still it's going on in Italy and on

[00:26:37] Europe and across even Canada.

[00:26:40] I mean,

[00:26:40] there's a big anti-trans moment at the moment and it's definitely happening in

[00:26:45] the UK.

[00:26:45] I mean,

[00:26:46] where streeting is not reversing legislation,

[00:26:48] but the good news this week,

[00:26:50] of course,

[00:26:50] is what's happened to mermaids.

[00:26:52] And of course,

[00:26:52] what's happened to mermaids is,

[00:26:54] you know,

[00:26:54] depends on how you see it reported,

[00:26:56] but we talked to in our last podcast episode,

[00:26:58] you know,

[00:26:59] basically they've been found not guilty of a whole load of hemi,

[00:27:01] and,

[00:27:02] you know,

[00:27:03] a bit,

[00:27:03] a bit guilty of some very,

[00:27:05] very silly bits of management incompetence.

[00:27:08] But,

[00:27:08] but you've been working with mermaids as well.

[00:27:11] And it's a fantastic organization,

[00:27:12] isn't it?

[00:27:13] Yeah.

[00:27:14] So mermaids was something that I was really excited to.

[00:27:18] I actually reached out to them after I saw everything be cleared up a

[00:27:22] little bit,

[00:27:22] because I thought that they needed a little bit of a boost,

[00:27:24] a little bit of a help,

[00:27:25] because what they really were intending to do was to help the trans

[00:27:29] community and help young people.

[00:27:31] And that is fundamentally something that I want to support.

[00:27:34] Now,

[00:27:34] there is always going to be ups and downs and silliness going on with all

[00:27:39] this stuff,

[00:27:39] because we're learning as we go.

[00:27:41] And it's a very tough and toxic environment when you are helping younger

[00:27:47] trans people,

[00:27:48] because there's so much misinformation and ignorance out there.

[00:27:51] But when I did my Mac collection,

[00:27:52] we agreed to donate 50,000 pounds to mermaids,

[00:27:56] because I was considered,

[00:27:57] like when I first started my first ever viral moment,

[00:28:01] which happened 15 years ago,

[00:28:02] that was me dressed as a mermaid.

[00:28:05] Now,

[00:28:05] it was a bizarre scenario where I just did this.

[00:28:08] I wanted to grow out my hair,

[00:28:09] because I've been modeling for five years at that point.

[00:28:11] And I had David Bowie kind of style mullet.

[00:28:13] And I wanted to look the same,

[00:28:16] but long hair.

[00:28:17] So,

[00:28:17] I started to put in extensions and tried to do some more visuals that were sort

[00:28:20] of just before the Tumblr generation started.

[00:28:24] And a company called Lion Crime did a competition.

[00:28:26] They said,

[00:28:27] would you like to submit your photos?

[00:28:28] And we'll see who gets the most shares and likes and whatnot.

[00:28:32] And to my absolute shock,

[00:28:34] it got like 35,000 shares.

[00:28:36] And this is like 15 years ago before there was viral content.

[00:28:39] And no one was saying anything about the fact that I was a trans person.

[00:28:42] My name is Joseph and I look like I'm mermaids.

[00:28:45] No one actually cared.

[00:28:46] They just loved the visual of it.

[00:28:47] And because at that time,

[00:28:49] there was still no trans representation.

[00:28:52] This was just,

[00:28:53] I hadn't even won the U generation competition at this point.

[00:28:56] So this is like years before.

[00:28:58] Everyone was so like,

[00:29:00] I received thousands of images of young people that had sketched me as a

[00:29:05] mermaid.

[00:29:06] I had a wallpaper all across my office of sketches of me as a mermaid because

[00:29:10] this image is connected.

[00:29:11] And I thought to myself,

[00:29:13] Oh my God,

[00:29:13] if they're not going to pay me to do my YouTube stuff,

[00:29:16] what I'll have to do is I'm going to put this on a t-shirt and I sold

[00:29:20] t-shirts.

[00:29:21] And that was what started my whole career.

[00:29:23] So when I first wanted to do product lines,

[00:29:25] I was making so much money.

[00:29:27] Thank God from t-shirts.

[00:29:28] And it allowed me to bycast all the gatekeepers.

[00:29:31] So when these viral images kind of started,

[00:29:34] my site put out more and more and more to do with this mermaid image.

[00:29:37] And then I did the boy to girl transformations,

[00:29:40] which were where I would start off looking.

[00:29:42] I'd actually fake that I was looking masculine and then take my hair down

[00:29:45] and look like a mermaid.

[00:29:47] And when I did that,

[00:29:48] it just blew up and it was really the entry point to my career.

[00:29:51] So the whole story behind my career started by financing everything through t-shirts.

[00:29:57] And I thought,

[00:29:57] let me give that image because I own it.

[00:30:00] I can let them use it.

[00:30:01] And we can do a special mermaid t-shirt just to celebrate,

[00:30:05] get help them.

[00:30:06] If anyone wants to support the charity,

[00:30:09] it's just my old image.

[00:30:11] I thought it connected really well.

[00:30:12] And it gave me some nostalgia.

[00:30:15] And I was so happy to see it came out the same week

[00:30:17] as I was on the billboards all up and down the UK,

[00:30:20] because it just goes to show that

[00:30:22] you can overcome so many obstacles in your career.

[00:30:25] You can have a t-shirt

[00:30:26] that really started my whole career.

[00:30:29] And then at the same time,

[00:30:31] 15 years later,

[00:30:32] you could be on billboards up and down the country.

[00:30:33] So it can work.

[00:30:34] It can work.

[00:30:35] And even though I've been kind of like talking about

[00:30:37] like how difficult I see things as,

[00:30:40] there's always routes to overcome this.

[00:30:43] It's not going to be like,

[00:30:44] there's no reason why we can't think of amazing ideas

[00:30:48] and really cool,

[00:30:49] colourful visuals

[00:30:50] and fabulous creative projects

[00:30:52] that can support us financially

[00:30:54] and that can inspire people

[00:30:57] and bring back that revenue.

[00:30:59] So if anyone wants to support them,

[00:31:01] please go and check it out.

[00:31:02] It's at their Mermaid web store.

[00:31:04] But I was so excited about it.

[00:31:06] I was like,

[00:31:06] what a fun week.

[00:31:08] Yeah.

[00:31:09] And I've been sick throughout all of it.

[00:31:13] Yeah.

[00:31:14] It's classic, isn't it?

[00:31:15] It's just a shame, isn't it?

[00:31:17] Wow, that's fantastic.

[00:31:18] Well, what else is in the pipeline for you?

[00:31:20] I suppose a run up of Christmas is coming.

[00:31:22] That must be nice.

[00:31:23] I was meant to be going to Hawaii.

[00:31:25] I really want to go to Hawaii,

[00:31:27] but I'm not sure if I can.

[00:31:28] No, I've got to work out what's going to work.

[00:31:30] I've got so much coming out.

[00:31:32] I think we're working on a new latest in beauty.

[00:31:35] Did I announce that on this podcast?

[00:31:36] I think we did, didn't we?

[00:31:38] Yes, you talked about it.

[00:31:38] Yeah, yeah.

[00:31:39] That sold out in 10 days.

[00:31:41] So everyone that's listening to this,

[00:31:42] it was amazing.

[00:31:43] It's gone so well.

[00:31:43] So we're going to be looking at another one.

[00:31:45] I got the opportunity to work in Helsinki.

[00:31:48] I was the ambassador for Pride this year in Helsinki.

[00:31:51] And I got to speak to the LGBT and trans organisations in Helsinki.

[00:31:58] And when I learned about how Helsinki have done things

[00:32:02] and how the perspective of the British media looked to people in Helsinki,

[00:32:06] I was really floored.

[00:32:09] It was absolutely amazing to speak to an incredible...

[00:32:14] He was on the kind of like the Finnish version of Big Brother,

[00:32:18] but he transitioned in front of the media.

[00:32:21] So he was an amazing...

[00:32:22] He's been a huge figure in that side of the world.

[00:32:24] And he now works with the big organisations.

[00:32:27] And he gave me so much insight into a way

[00:32:31] that you could kind of like highlight all the topics

[00:32:33] that we've been discussing today

[00:32:35] and do it in a way that sort of allowed experts to be experts

[00:32:39] and activists to be activists.

[00:32:41] And I think that I have an idea

[00:32:45] that could be kind of like inspired by that,

[00:32:49] which could be like a community doing thing.

[00:32:51] So I used to...

[00:32:52] Sorry to go into this in such great detail,

[00:32:54] but many, many years ago,

[00:32:56] I built a platform called Perfect Androgyny.

[00:32:57] And it was basically like a platform that after I had my success,

[00:33:00] I could share with other LGBT people.

[00:33:03] And I'm thinking that I want to turn that brand,

[00:33:07] that Perfect Androgyny brand,

[00:33:08] I want to call it something different.

[00:33:09] But the same kind of idea,

[00:33:11] like build a network

[00:33:13] where we can kind of all put our ideas together.

[00:33:15] We can all share things.

[00:33:16] Now we've got things like Discord

[00:33:18] and we've got all these different access tools.

[00:33:21] I think there could be some route to build upon that.

[00:33:25] So before Christmas,

[00:33:26] I'm going to be sharing a little bit more about that project.

[00:33:29] But hopefully with the outcome,

[00:33:30] that it will be like,

[00:33:31] instead of waiting for things to change,

[00:33:35] I think we should come together and do it.

[00:33:37] But I will share more about that in the future.

[00:33:38] Maybe I can come back and talk about it then.

[00:33:40] Yeah, please do.

[00:33:41] Well, we'd love to be part of it, of course.

[00:33:43] Yay!

[00:33:45] Well, that's fantastic.

[00:33:46] Well, I love the idea of bringing the community together

[00:33:49] and doing something.

[00:33:50] Because, I mean, unless we help ourselves,

[00:33:53] then we have no right to expect other people to help us.

[00:33:57] So I think that's really important.

[00:33:59] Yes, definitely.

[00:34:00] And that purpose-led projects seem to be more effective

[00:34:05] at making changes than government people at the moment.

[00:34:09] Or personality.

[00:34:10] Because I think the personality thing is too transitory.

[00:34:13] Yes.

[00:34:14] Yes.

[00:34:15] I think that's the biggest learning for me.

[00:34:17] It has to be about the reason you have...

[00:34:20] It's like the anti-immigration story.

[00:34:23] The reason we know that immigrants are good

[00:34:24] is because of the value they bring.

[00:34:26] It's the reason we know the arts are great.

[00:34:28] It's because of the soft power they bring.

[00:34:30] And no one's really worked out this bit for us.

[00:34:34] And I think it just needs working out.

[00:34:36] I think so too.

[00:34:37] And I think giving people the way to make money

[00:34:40] in the process of that,

[00:34:41] which is another aspect of what I think will be good.

[00:34:45] Anyway, we shall share that another day.

[00:34:47] I can't wait.

[00:34:47] Let us know and we'll be part of it.

[00:34:50] Thank you for having me.

[00:34:51] That was such a fun and great one for me

[00:34:54] to actually have a little bit of a rant

[00:34:55] about all the various things that have been in my brain.

[00:34:57] So I appreciate it.

[00:34:58] It was probably a bit of tangent on tangent.

[00:35:00] But thank you for having me.

[00:35:01] That's always a joy.

[00:35:03] You take care.

[00:35:08] Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox.

[00:35:12] It's been a joy to have you with us.

[00:35:14] If you want to make contact with us,

[00:35:16] you can contact us at jillian at transvox.co.uk

[00:35:20] and all of our money goes to our nominated charity.

[00:35:24] And Jen, you've chosen the charity

[00:35:26] for the next number of episodes.

[00:35:28] Which one have you chosen?

[00:35:29] Our charity is called Beyond Reflections,

[00:35:32] which is a charity that provides support

[00:35:34] and counselling to trans people, non-binary people

[00:35:37] and their friends and their families across the UK.

[00:35:40] An amazing charity doing some amazing work.

[00:35:43] Really important.

[00:35:44] So please, if you can give.

[00:35:46] Great.

[00:35:47] And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections,

[00:35:49] it's beyond-reflections.org.uk.

[00:35:52] But as I say,

[00:35:53] if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing,

[00:35:55] because we love to help the people who help us.

[00:35:57] Again, if you've got ideas for the show,

[00:36:00] things you'd like to ask us,

[00:36:02] questions, comments, applause,

[00:36:04] or brickbats,

[00:36:05] feel free to send it all in to jillian at transvox.co.uk.

[00:36:10] Until the next time,

[00:36:11] goodbye.

[00:36:12] Bye-bye.

[00:36:13] Bye-bye.

[00:36:16] Bye-bye.