Transvox - In the News - Cass, Levy, Trans Youth, Ohio and Pink News

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey and welcome back to Transvox. And how are you Jenny? I see you looking respirited

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_03]: as always in your orange Dutch netball shirt this time. Have you been bouncing to the right

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_03]: and to the left?

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been trying to bounce, I always like the Dutch. I like your jam cheese. I'm

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_02]: very well thanks Gill, how are you?

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Well I'm good but it's been a funny old week hasn't it? You alerted me I think

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_03]: earlier in the week to the concept that Pink News has undergone a bit of change in direction.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to sort of outline what we're talking about?

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it is changing direction or not but I'm sure a lot of you know Pink

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: News is the largest online LGBT plus news site really effectively. They're big enough

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to have awards I think when even politicians attend I think. So they're quite a big deal

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: in the online LGBT plus space and you get lots of stories from them and they publish

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_02]: lots of stories and you know they're seen or certainly seen as very positive

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: in terms of generally and positive in terms of LGBT rights etc. I mean a bit

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: tabloidian maybe in some of the reporting but you know they generally look out

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: for those stories and I think most of our community the trans non-binary

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: community would have seen them as you know as allies as one of the few media

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_02]: outlets that would be positively supportive of trans but it you know we came aware

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: of that there's some stories that their editor was not so positive about trans

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think this was maybe I don't know when this was actually happened but

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's coming up to the election period but they seem to be talking about

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: rolling back on trans coverage not wanting to be seen to be too positive

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: towards trans and it's upset a lot of people in the whole community particularly

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: at trans and non-binary but the whole community because there's very few we've

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: got very few allies in the media and for the one sort of site in the UK

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: particularly that's supposed to be on our side seems to be wanted to step back a

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: little bit if I can put it that way.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Well let's see if we can play it for those...

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I think I'll put it in some context this is I think them talking about

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: things that relate to trans non-binary remain incredibly contentious I think that the

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: marriage the idea and we're celebrating 10 years of same-sex marriage this year

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the society has moved on and it has been generally accepted and

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: well yes when we were doing it it was contentious I think that the other

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: things are even more contentious than that was then and are significantly

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: contentious now and there is significant brand and partner nervousness

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: around that topic and so in my view they are different things I think that

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: we just have to be careful and it's like that's for others to do and also

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the business can't afford to do that.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the role of others to seek to change narratives if we start doing too many things I

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: think it will harm the conversations with advertisers for other things but

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_00]: it gives the perception that pink news is something different to it is

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: What we are is an entertainment content powerhouse we don't want to be

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_00]: positioning ourselves as some sort of like charity.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah it's quite chopping really isn't it when you listen to it.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it's a short thing that's is it Benjamin Cohen he's the chief

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: executive officer of pink news yeah and it's about leading up to the

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: election it seems to be like a team meeting to discuss their coverage and

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: some of the work that we do and yeah I mean he starts off talking about ten

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: years of which is something they're probably doing next year of equal

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: marriage when we had equal marriage in the UK then moves on to talking

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: about trans saying it's contentious which I guess nobody you know on one

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: level it definitely is contentious within politics not from our side you

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: know it's very clear from the community that it's not there's not really

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: contentious bar fringe elements so that's odd you know because you know

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that you know I was on the right side of it not you wouldn't hear him

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: saying well homophobia is contentious and things like that that's

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: odd and then he then talks about brands and sponsors so basically I

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: think the subtext is we don't want to talk too much about being

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: positive about trans because it might scare off some sponsors and some

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: partners I think and then says he ends up saying they don't want to be a

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: campaigning I think weirdly when said an entertainment powerhouse I think

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that's probably over selling it a bit I mean they're successful but then

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: says they don't want to be a charity they don't want to really what he's

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: saying as chief executive look we don't want to be seen as overtly

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: campaigning for the rights of trans people yes where I get and non-binary

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_02]: people and I just think that is shocking from the one outlet that we

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: would expect even with its flaws as I say it could be a bit tabloid the

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and I've I've suffered is the wrong word I was had an article about me in

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the big news that I thought was really badly handled in the past so I

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: got this this was when I was in question time audience and I yes yeah

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I told you I don't know if I talked about too much on the podcast but I

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: was subject on Twitter as it was at the time to a huge amount of abuse for

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: appearing in the audience at a BBC News question time event and asking a

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: question from the audience and people would could tell that was trans by

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: looking I guess in here look at listening to me and then got a huge

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: amount of abuse and Pink News picked it up and I think they ran with the

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: headline let me see if can find find the headline that they're around

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: which I hated because I'm trigger warning going to use I'm going to use

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that a bit of a I think they use the phrase question time audience member

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and bracket I think these would forgive me tranny in inverted commas you

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: know that thing that journalists do they put it inverted commas as if

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: they're not saying it yeah that's right because they quoted somebody

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: else but it's it was pretty shocking and it was just the way it was handled

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: they didn't reach out to me because they didn't know who I was they could

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: just see pictures of me on the screen and then then and it was a pretty

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: horrendous article and I'll you know I don't know what you bought your

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: reaction to that whistle-blowing that Jill it's it's very odd isn't it

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and there's a sort of some of the comments which have been really

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_03]: interesting because of course as you can imagine there's been a you know a

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Twitter storm I'm not going to call it X I'm not going to mess about with that

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and to be honest with you I don't really bother with X so much now I

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: hate it and well I think what they're saying is this is this is this is

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_03]: a sort of sensation that there's that this is the typical old-fashioned

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_03]: response of the white gay person who doesn't really like the idea of T

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_03]: attached to the whole lgb thing and other people are saying you know it's

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_03]: it depends how you take it depends how you think about it they've done a lot

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: good and actually it is the only paper of the only broadcast place where

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_03]: actually the do we call queer news and and that includes the trans

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_03]: community so it's it's really problematic commercially I understand

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_03]: where they're coming from because actually if you're and this has

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_03]: happened with John Deere and it's happened with some of the big

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: brands in the States they who have been inclusive and have stood

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_03]: behind trans people and queer people and they have been absolutely

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_03]: vilified for it and people have been you know wiping the products

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_03]: off shelves it's been receiving all sorts of negative press and such

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_03]: like and so there's there's a real sort of blowback to any sort of you

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_03]: know allyship in the in the commercial world at the moment and

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_03]: businesses really are really interested in you know allyship for

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_03]: one reason and if it's a hit in the bottom line to do that then they

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_03]: don't do it unless they're a trans trans organization however you would

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_03]: expect a queer charity to understand that that's you know as part of what

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_03]: we're doing and that's the point isn't it if it's John Deere trucks

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_03]: all right I get it but if it's the if it's the major newspaper in our

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: area in our in our space and that's quite bizarre isn't it it's it's

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_03]: sort of really disappointing however having said that they have actually

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_03]: had quite a few very useful trans articles on that since then it's almost

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_03]: as if they've meant there was ways since the fuss has been made

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_03]: afterwards and I don't mean fussiness or a negative sense I mean you know

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_03]: they act they're very negative reaction that was generated so as always

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying I'm trying to be a devil's advocate on this one because

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_03]: it's very easy I think to leap to the vitriol side of the argument but

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: he's not covering himself in glory and of course there's a there's

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: obviously a Pinkney's whistleblower's side and there's a lot of vitriol about

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_03]: the way the organization's being run and there's people internally now

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_03]: blowing whistles on management style leadership style and this is this is

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_03]: often the beginning of the end for some organizations so we've got to be

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03]: really careful we don't lose the one thing well important but that true

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: but that that's that relies on it relies on its queer audience it

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: relies on us and if and if and if we you know if it's difficult yes I

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_02]: mean they've they've always put articles about trans matters and they've you

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: know not come across as anti-trans I don't believe for a moment that

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: anti-trans in that respect and of course they will have noticed this and

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: they will not want to to feed into the the trouble the bit of trouble

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: they've gotten into on this so they're bound to put articles up but

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: they always had done but it was noted I think what was noticeable

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking about it was whether when there was a general election when you

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: know these issues were coming up is that they were they were being a bit

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: quiet and actually I don't I find that extraordinary because yes of course

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know I mean you know don't go with those sponsors if those

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: sponsors aren't supportive of trans people and trans rights and gay

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: rights and lesbian rights and all the they're not supportive of the

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: community they don't use them as a sponsor I mean if you've really got

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're an LGBT plus with you site you really of course you've got to

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: keep your business going but you have to have a you know have to have a

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: purpose if you're if you're going to if that's the that what you're

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you're treading I find that I understand some of the hard hard logic

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: on that I guess but they're an LGBT that you know they stand to lose

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: or more and it makes you worry about the attitude I mean this is an

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: editor this is the CEO I guess not the editor CEO on this and I guess

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: journalists are different yeah but it does make me wonder about when they

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: when they put it made me think about the article they put up put up about

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_02]: me because of the way I remember when it was worded so the article was

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: worded I'll read it out I found it now the headline was dozens of

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: trolls target tranny question time audience member with transphobic slurs

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was just a reporting of lots of Twitter's and they put it in

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: 30 commerce tranny so they're not calling me tranny the other people are

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: but you know effectively I'm sorry I'm using that that word so much but it is

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: in context and I did I did actually contact the journalist who did say

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that they would put something in you know I did I did I did contact

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: journalists said the way you did that you didn't try and find out who I was

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: or reach out to me could have you could have searched on Twitter and

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I know who was so and then he did sort of get an apology from the

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: journalist to say well okay because that came out that very night and that

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: added to my that to see that I did to the hurt really that I'd already

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: seen on Twitter it didn't it wasn't written in a it was a factual way but

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: it wasn't really written in a supportive manner saying isn't you

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: know isn't this terrible sort of thing it was just reporting it I

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: don't know so I've always had a slight and then but I think that's a

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: bloody thing but this has made me think you know are they truly our

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: friends and allies or are they you know are they doing it because they

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: have to because they're part of the community you know is it called our

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_03]: business but well I think there's two there's two different things may be

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_03]: pulling each other I think in media there's always a healthy or healthy

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_03]: there's always a conflict between the commercial and the editorial

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_03]: there is always always has been I used to work in media as well and that was

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_03]: you know if you look at the big tabloid press huge rows between commercial and

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_03]: editorial I mean from you know from the editor from the the writing staff

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_03]: saying this is what we meet must do and the commercial people saying you

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_03]: can't write that because actually this will cost us loads and loads of

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_03]: advertising there you always say but then and then the sort of a sort of a

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_03]: power fight between the two sides and there's always a slightly uneasy

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_03]: and and sort of what organizations do then is instead of going out and

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_03]: campaigning themselves instead of going out and finding stories what they do is

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_03]: to sit back and wait for stories just to arrive in the lap and what's

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: interesting is the next story I want to talk about is actually transactual

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_03]: who've done something and pink news have reported on that so that I think

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: will be their new stance what they'll do is they'll get back into

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: they'll get back into reporting things but instead of going out and

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: finding a story themselves and reporting on it and doing something with it

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_03]: they'll just wait and be fed stuff from trans organizations and luckily

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: transactual a very good organization will constantly sense of them and I

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_03]: wanted to actually to raise the article on on pink news bizarrely

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: enough which which I thought was interesting given it was down August

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_03]: the 27th and and this it's the there's been an announcement of a

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_03]: review into adult gender clinics by NHS England and it's going to be led by

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_03]: the NHS Northwest medical director Dr. David Levy or Levy I don't know what

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_03]: the correct pronunciation is and what they're doing is they're going to take

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_03]: a look at the whole subject of trans health and and what they're going to

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_03]: have a look at is they're going to create an important way of exploring

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_03]: the broader concerns and issues with adult services and this is trans

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_03]: adult services and basically they're going to conflict so their

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_03]: For instance, feedback now comes from collisions and patients past and present.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So this is part of the CAS report where as part of her 32 recommendations

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_03]: she said that NHS England should review its adult gender services and this is

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_03]: why it's been done because obviously people are responding to that and now

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to discuss this CAS report here but you know what we need

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_03]: to worry about is that if the CAS report has got any sort of bearing

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03]: on the Levy review is it already hold below the waterline because of course

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_03]: the CAS review ignored all the lived experience of tens of thousands of

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_03]: people and such like so I just wondered what you know given that

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_03]: you're in that world any thoughts that you might have?

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it's interesting so reading the article I mean you know the CAS

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: report has so many question marks over it and within the community

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: has gotten no credit has been frankly unscientific and had overreach.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It depends what I mean there clearly needs to be improvements in

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: gender identity services for adults because the waiting lists are just

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: horrendous you know and you know I think some of the experience of

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: people attending it isn't great now I can only it's interesting because

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a long time since I went to the services but I find it had no other

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: than you know firming up my prescriptions and things no real

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: positive impact on my life to have to go down to London the infamous

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Charing Cross Clinic there above the Sainsbury's to have to

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: trek down there for appointments that were actually no use to me or

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: anything else and though you know certainly back then there were all

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: sorts of really poor experiences I remember speaking to a young trans

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: woman in the room who had been basically sort of told that they

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: need to wear skirts more and that sort of old fashioned nonsense why

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: were you always wearing trousers as a question that sort of so there

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: was definitely problems back then I think I'm my understanding things

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: have must have improved significantly by them but I don't know about the

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: experience of people it about whether they found it frustrating they found

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that there is support in a positive or is it just something you have to go

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: through for many people it almost felt to me like a hurdle to step over

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah to be able to you know get the help from the NHS I want rather

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: than something that's going to positively help me so it'd be

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting what it looks like I think you know I think hopefully

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: we've been looking at patient experience talking to patients and

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: adults who've used it and then they'll get an answer to that you

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: know it'd be interesting to hear if somebody's a more recent experience

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: with a gender identity clinic so many people just give up on the idea now

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_03]: because the waiting list is so long yeah it's just too long yeah I've had to

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah you know you know it's strange so it could be positives out of it

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know this is not Hillary Cass doing it this is they will have

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_02]: taken note of the criticisms of Cass you know particularly from the BMA and

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: studies you know academic studies from America who've of cast doubt on its

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: findings and its methodology so you would think that they would have

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_02]: learned from that so I'm trying not to worry too much about it I don't I

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: don't know what the remit is I think but transactual who do some

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: excellent work and campaigning work are asking that right question about you

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: know is this person qualified to lead this you know who they're going to

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_03]: talk to yeah how have they been selected I mean that's that's that's

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_03]: one of the biggest challenges here isn't it yeah I don't I mean I don't

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: know how these things work I mean you know I think Hillary Cass was

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_02]: selected because she has a background in pediatrics or something but

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: obviously not in not specifically I don't know who this that there's

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: a lead in this this inquiry is it Levy David Levy David Levy when I read

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Levy inquiry I just thought about that one into the newspapers it's a tabloid

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: yes exactly that was called that was a Leveson report

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: David Levy was part of the stuff document with Iraq wasn't it?

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It could be it could be our brains yeah it's gonna be interesting

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: because on the face of it you think oh for god's sake just leave us alone

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: just resource the services just let us get the help we need yeah I'd say let

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the gps prescribe us hrt if we need if that's what we need to help us

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: transition one you know there's such gatekeepers as well to

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: to care unless you've got the resources to go private so

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_03]: we'll see on that it is it is it's the whole concept could be very

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_03]: straightforward couldn't it it could be sort of just non-contentious the whole

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_03]: medicalization process can be very straightforward

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_03]: access to hormones isn't you know medically that expensive

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_03]: whichever direction you're heading yes surgeries and such like become more

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_03]: expensive but you know that it could easily be a non-psychiatric

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_03]: process because it doesn't need to be psychiatric it could be seen as a

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_03]: medical process I get I get and I get that there's more

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_03]: and easiness about trans youth I'm not saying that's right wrong I'm

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_03]: just saying I understand that there's more

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and whether you like it or not I get that but

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_03]: certainly for adults there's absolutely no need to walk into a

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_03]: doctor surgery and say this is the this is what I need to treat this

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: condition yeah say well if I've got that condition well that is the

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_03]: treatment so the only issue is how do I know I've got that condition well

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_03]: it's quite easy to figure out if you've got that condition

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_03]: because it's very straightforward to isolate it so

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_03]: the rest of it's just the rest of it's just dogma

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: well exactly but the whole thing about this with the waiting list now

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: so many trans people will have transitioned effectively socially

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: transitioned by the time they get there

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: or died so what on earth other than you know

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you know medically making sure you know hormones are

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: done in the right way and things like that in terms of any sort of

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: counseling therapeutic approach I mean as I say

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: what are they going to tell you when you've already been through that I

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: just don't know what a gender clinic expert decides I'm

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: trans or not I just don't get that concept because

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: you've already you know yes some people are

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: are do you know to go through that struggle and journey but if they have

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: to wait four or five years you know they're going to have had

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: to look at socially transitioning and just put it on hold

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean as I say I used to I used to go around I quite liked

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_02]: my clinician uh I can't remember his name now he's quite

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_02]: he's quite well known in the gender identity

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he ended up running running being in charge of the clinic

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I used to go down we used to have lovely chats after being asked a

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02]: bunch of silly questions at the start you know

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: um we used to have a nice chat nothing of action much about my

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: gender identity because it was a waste of time I was already living my

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: life I was just it was just going through the motions it felt to me a

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: little bit because I had to take off that I'd

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: had an appointment every so often right so all day down to London

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: so I mean I'm sure it's improved significantly since then

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: um but yeah I don't know we'll keep obviously something we'll keep an eye

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: on be interesting if we get a chance

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02]: some desk is somebody that's had more recent

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: experiences gender identity clinics um you know I'm

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder I'm just trying to think of it if I know anybody myself because

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: um I don't think my knowledge is relevant anymore after

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_02]: after you know so long but yeah we'll keep an eye out on that it's

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: book you just to transactual for all the work they do

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_02]: campaigning on these matters and and really getting in there and asking

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_03]: that right question yeah well and you know well let's

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_03]: talk about madness though because however peculiar life is over here

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: we're not in the states and I don't know if you saw this case

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_03]: here in Ohio this week where it's been in a court

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_03]: court ruling against a teacher the court ruled

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_03]: that or made a case that they um they ruled in favor of a teacher

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_03]: who said they wouldn't respect pronouns or names

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_03]: or anything else so let's put that to one side because that's bad enough

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: and the courts you know basically said that they wanted

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_03]: pronouns used and um and it should it's important that

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_03]: you know transgender youth have their names and pronouns respected

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_03]: what the court ruled in the end is that misgendering and dead naming

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_03]: students might be in their best interest

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_03]: regardless of parental support because it might toughen them up

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_03]: in a difficult world hang on a minute I know that was a

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: court ruling because I thought you said I thought I didn't hear that

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought the court was saying well the court what it is the court

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_03]: actually took the advice of an anti-trans

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_03]: um activist um to to actually state that case so basically

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_03]: they haven't ruled on that final bit so they've ruled on the

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_03]: fact that the teacher can actually not use their program pronouns and not

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_03]: use their names and said that's okay and cited religious

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: right so that yeah basically what the what they're saying is

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_03]: in this country it's good for you it's good for you to toughen yourself up

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_03]: not to have uh not to have your pronouns used so I mean

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_03]: you know for all we say over here about how difficult things are

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean on the on the whole the vast majority people are very happy to

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: use your name I mean pronouns are right that might

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_03]: be a couple more complex and situations but your

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_03]: your name your own a name that's being legally changed

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_03]: with your parental consent I mean that's bizarre isn't it

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: no but that's you know that they that there's parts of the

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: United States where their clear agenda is to eradicate trans people

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: it's what they want to do they want to stop

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: every barrier you can put in place whatever the logic or

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: not lack of logic behind it or how cruel it is

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: say when they've nailed their colors to the mass to

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: to the mass that uh they don't think trans people are valid

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah but I it's what are the context would you

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: just say you know you a court talk about

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: like might toughen up a child to be bullied in that way

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_03]: um well because it's just hopps let's keep skipping a jump to say well

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: you know why why worry about rape because it'd just be good for them

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and it's not you know forgive me for saying things like that but but

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_03]: it's true isn't it that's where it leads

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_03]: but here's the thing you just have to read I've started to read quite

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_03]: a bit of project 2025 this thing written by the heritage organization

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_03]: the states and it is in their in their peculiar

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_03]: logic there is a peculiar logic where it makes sense for them to

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_03]: persecute trans people and anybody and gay people because that's what they're

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_03]: trying to do as well uh because it doesn't fit into

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_03]: their white the morality of what project 2025 is about so yeah

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's it's it's christian fascism it's it's that's

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: where they're at I mean it's the same with the the um

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I think uh because it talks about there that

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you know they want to end the abortion federation across all the united states

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and anybody with a badge or something can

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_02]: arrest somebody you know if they think they're going to

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: to have abortion or something or has had abortion it's absolutely

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_02]: um absolutely terrifying really and we can sort of sit back and

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: laugh a bit and say christ crazy america and some of these states not

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02]: all of america just certain states what then

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you know it must be terrified to be yeah it is a

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: it is far too many and um yeah and yeah I mean that's why it's really so

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: so important to everybody that the election goes the right way in

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: november in the states for anybody that's

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that's different but yeah I don't what an extraordinary thing you know

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: well it's it's not it's not massively far away from what the

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: torres are proposing in schools in this country

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: torres are proposed well in fact in some ways the torres

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: because the proposed sort of guidance was you know maybe even worse and it

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: said the whole school could have a policy of not

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: uh not recognizing a child's gender in that way you know that of using the

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: name and pronoun and it and it and even said it would

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: accept I think it said something in exceptional

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: circumstances you might do that but you have to think of

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the effect on the other children I mean it's just it's

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: not much different it's not much different with being proposed by

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: thankfully the the government that's gone and I do understand that this

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: government is not going to impose certainly not all of those

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_03]: guidance in school I say the ream they've kept the

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_03]: uh gender the puberty brockets they've extended that

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: ban in northern yes and it's just recently got into northern ireland I

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: think a justice and protest I think today about that

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: but let's end with some good news okay let's have some good news what's

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah so I and this isn't pink news again so you see everything you say

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_03]: this is the this is the irony about this so I heard this on a um I heard

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: this on another podcast another trans podcast called what the trans

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and it's a trans it's a podcast been going for many many years it's

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_03]: very good very enjoyable and um and they were reporting on and went

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_03]: to interview um a bunch of trans youngsters who've occupied the

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: department for education in london I think they're from trans kids

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_03]: deserve better and uh and they're simply asking for the

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_03]: right to a safe inclusive education the rights of trans youth and adults

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and uh and I think this is this is this is a good

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: this is a good um initiative and it follows on

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: the fact that we're treating had extended the um controversial

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_03]: emergencies ban and puberty blockers yeah uh so but it's nice to see

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_03]: it's not you know the thing about when we say it's a good

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: story at least there's a protest yeah the fact that the protest gets

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_03]: something bad you know let's let's read in the 60s and

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: the 50s you know it was students that changed the world it was those

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_03]: the people who demonstrated and changed good ones it was

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_03]: students that went to chanuman square it was

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_03]: students that were in libya you know youngsters are the people who

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_03]: actually have a vested interest in protecting their own futures

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and they tend to have the hutsper and the

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_03]: the wherewithal and the ability to take on the established

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_03]: powers and that's what's great is when it's a bunch of children

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_03]: it's very hard for anybody to do anything to them or against them

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_03]: because laws don't usually apply to people who are under the age of 18

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and this is the challenge of greta had the greta thunberg

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_03]: um so they i know the laws against demonstrations have changed recently but

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: um they're pretty weird in the uk down

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: aren't they about protests but yes i mean it will be i mean it

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: will be um because we know that you know younger people have a much more

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: um positive towards gender identity as a whole

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and um you know it's a sweet bit same but by far

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you know you know we speak to to young communities so

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: it's good the fact i mean it's it's going to be a long battle

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: to get to where we need to be you know as i say you know

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02]: um i don't expect this government to do anything much positive very soon

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: but who knows there certainly is it seems to be a

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: turnaround for me that you see you know criticism of the

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: cash report you see you know vocal allies coming out and

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_02]: speaking against that you've seen people protest

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: so you know um the message will have to get through some time

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_03]: at some point really i think there's always there's always the

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_03]: there's always room for optimism and yeah yeah yeah no

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah well let's be honest yes that's the best good news story we could

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_03]: that's the only one we can find and that and you in your orange dutch

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and of course tonight is the opening of the olympics oh yeah

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_03]: paralympics yeah yeah yeah and i know you're on special duty to find

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03]: some interesting people to talk about in our next podcast oh

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah we'll try and do that but yeah mission to watch as much

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_03]: paralympian activity as you possibly can and uh

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: report back yeah i'm sure my employer will be fine with that

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_02]: i'll just take a few days off but i shall do my very best job

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_02]: see you soon you take care take care everyone bye

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_03]: thanks for listening to this episode of transvox it's been a joy to have you

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_03]: with us um if you want to um make contact with

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_03]: us you can contact us at gillian at transvox.co.uk

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and if you'd like to support the work we do please go to

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_03]: patreon and go to page transvox and all of our money goes to our

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_03]: charity and jen you've chosen the charity for the next

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_03]: number of episodes which one have you chosen our charity is called beyond

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: reflections which is a charity that provides

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: support and counseling to trans people non-binary people and their

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: friends and their families across the uk an

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: amazing charity doing some amazing work really important so

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_03]: please if you can give great and if you want to go and have a look at

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_03]: beyond reflections it's beyond-reflections.org.uk

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: and uh but as i say if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_03]: because we love to help the people who help us

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_03]: again if you've got ideas for um the show things you'd like to ask us

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_03]: questions comments applause or brick baths feel free to send it all in to

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_03]: gillian at transvox.co.uk until the next time

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_03]: goodbye bye