Transvox - Euphoria, Challenges, and Authenticity: Navigating Transition

[00:00:07] Hello and welcome back to Transvox, and hello to Jenny Harvey. And it's good to see you back into your costume self with your beautiful yellow polka dot top and your quite odd looking rubber ring and sun hat. You've obviously been out sunning yourself. You've definitely got to embrace the weather, Gill. You've definitely got to embrace the weather. The thing is I haven't got a garden, so it does look slightly pointless me sitting in the front room wearing a rubber ring, but try my best.

[00:00:36] In case you have a flood. Who knows? Look, last week we drilled into the gloom and doom of anti-trans financing, and the week before we had an awful this and awful that. I wouldn't mind a slightly lighthearted episode today. It's hardly been a chuckle fest the last few months, to be fair. So yes, it would be nice not to doom scroll in our minds again.

[00:01:02] And maybe this is an episode, and I'm not trying to exclude anyone by this, but maybe this is an episode which has particular relevance to perhaps older trans women or particularly trans women who are maybe transitioning later on in life. And we were thinking about the things that don't tell you about transition. That sounds very interesting, Gill, because nobody told me much, but there were things I thought would be the case that didn't pan out that way.

[00:01:32] Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? I had to rack my brains, really, to remember 2005. But yeah, yeah, what didn't they tell us? What didn't we think about when we transitioned? Because it is amazing, when I think about transition, I think about it so fondly, because when I transitioned, I remember the first five years, the euphoria. The sheer joy of just being authentic and feeling real and accepted and all that was just amazing.

[00:01:58] So I think you didn't really think about it too much, in my case, anyway. I think that's a really important thing. I know we touched on this a bit, but this idea of gender euphoria is really important, isn't it? Because it still exists, irrespective of the context and with you're in. And it's that just being comfortable for the first time in your life, in your own skin, as it were. Yeah. No, I can't.

[00:02:25] I don't know about you, but it's the same for most people, maybe of our generation. I spent so many years being secretive, hiding, being ashamed, and thinking it was never possible, then taking those first steps and thinking it is possible, and then doing it. And I think making a success of it, when I first transitioned, hands down the best time of my life. I was absolutely flying back then.

[00:02:54] The world was an easier place, I think, Jill, but just for myself, just feeling complete and authentic was amazing. Is that the same for you? Because obviously your transition is a bit more recent. Yeah, I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because when you think about euphoria, some people call it the opposite of dysphoria, because in terms of linguistics, that's what it actually means, isn't it? And people describe euphoria as being the absence of dysphoria. Yeah. We've experienced all that stuff and it's gone.

[00:03:23] But I think it's more than that. It's almost like the balance between euphoria and dysphoria is just a sort of the middle line, a sort of a zero feeling almost. And the euphoria thing is that feeling of, as you say, authenticity. But for me, it's comfort and it's acceptance. And it's that, all right, forget the context at the moment, which makes life tricky. There's no doubt about that. No, that's true. But it's always been tricky for cis women. And all we're doing is finding that we've gone into that world of trickiness for cis women multiplied by 10 for trans women.

[00:03:52] But that still doesn't mean that when you're walking down the street, strangely enough, you just feel comfortable in your own skin and just able to, where you're in an accepting place, you're just able to just get on with your life without actually being, you know, in that thing about trying to catch yourself in a mirror because actually it's just horrible. That sensation of being, who is that person staring back at me? You know, that ability just to have the right name called and just to be yourself.

[00:04:21] And suddenly for me, what happens is when you transition, you begin to live your life. And I think for some trans people, the issue is that the transition becomes such a big event that transition becomes the end in itself rather than the beginning of the next phase. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think that's really important, isn't it? That's a really good point. I've never thought about it like that. Yeah, it was my, you're right, it was an easier time for me.

[00:04:46] So I didn't have to have the baggage of seemingly the whole world to be against, you think. But so it was a good time. And there was, you're right about that actually feeling comfortable in your own skin. Actually, the euphoria, the crazy euphoria that was exhausted and exhilarating for the first few days of me going to work as Jenny and being generally accepted and things like that. Eventually it does become just feeling settled.

[00:05:14] And there was definitely a time I forgot about being trans. Transitions, that happened to me after maybe for a few years. It wasn't the issue about transition. It was just me. I always knew I was still going to be seen as different because people knew my gender history, but I just felt comfortable. And that was amazing. And there was nothing I wasn't able to do as a woman. I did things as a woman that I didn't have confidence to do as previously. It was interesting.

[00:05:43] Yeah, which I wish I could relive those days again. Because that was amazing. It's actually interesting because I was just looking at Facebook group earlier and listened to someone who's transitioned. And they were griping and groaning and whinging and such and having a miserable time. And I was saying to them, these are the best times. This is all right. You've experienced there are some hate. There's some hate and there's some difficulty in the world. There's always hate and difficulty in the world.

[00:06:09] And without being overly dramatic, there's places in the world that are a heck of a lot worse than London for trans people. You don't need to think about those because we're doing uplifting today. But I do think that people get so absorbed in the chaos, the anxiety. And I do think we forget that bit, which is being cautious, going out in public is one of the things that don't tell you about before you transition, which is the thing that cis women have to be more careful. And it's always talk about this.

[00:06:38] One of the things I always talk about, the thing that you lose most of all is you lose. Obviously, you lose white male privilege for me in business. You lose that ability to sit in a room, listen to great ideas coming from cis women and such. And then some guy stands at the end, summarizes all the points, takes credit for everything and walks out. And everyone thinks, oh, that person's a genius. And you're thinking, hang on a minute, there's something about white male privilege which allows a white male, particularly.

[00:07:05] I'm using the term as illustrative rather than factual, to say that actually you don't realize you're going to lose that. And actually, it's a sort of a challenge in a work setting, isn't it, Jen? Because you're thinking, I still remember how to be a male in a meeting. But if I am a male in a meeting, does that give away the fact that I'm now on? And it's like a bit of a brain meld, isn't it? Thinking, who am I now? Because you're neither male nor female sometimes if you're not careful. You drop to the bottom of the pile.

[00:07:33] So you give yourself fewer rights than women as well. So the thing I don't tell you about in a work setting is that actually just being listened to because you're male is something you're going to have to cope with, isn't it? I think you're right. I probably don't know whether I've been oblivious to some of it, but I think that's definitely been a situation that maybe I'm more likely to have not been considered or taken seriously as before or not.

[00:08:00] I do think it's one of the things I see in myself because I was brought up with a privilege and confidence that I always worry at times that I fall back into behaviours that had been ingrained in me for 35 years, particularly when I'm in meetings where I'm advocating or arguing a point because my job is to argue for a living because I must be the most annoying person to live with. But I've spent 35 years as a trade union arguing.

[00:08:27] So I do worry about all that learned behaviour from pre-transition that I could easily fall into those patterns of speech and behaviour and do that. So I recognise it myself and I do see it in others. And I think that's that privilege of actually looking at life from both sides. It is the song is both sides. I've seen life from both sides now. And you do see that difference. You do see that difference in experience.

[00:08:55] And it's part of what I treasure about the privilege, I believe, to have been trans in some ways. It's not the same sort of privilege of benefit. But I do feel it's been to have been able to experience a breadth of life across two genders is in some ways really informative, educational and interesting. So I do. But I do get what you're saying.

[00:09:21] And I think particularly, I imagine, in your world, which is fair to say maybe more of a nat macho in terms of a business culture than a public sector NHS one. Would that be? Oh, yeah. Corporate. Yeah. Would that be? Because I don't really have that same experience because I'm dealing with public sector, which is generally different. Different. So how is that? Have you felt not being taken and given the same respect? Oh, yeah.

[00:09:50] And it's very interesting because when you talk to cis women about this. So, for example, I was in a board meeting with a bunch of directors in a manufacturing company. And there were, I think, 13 men, one cis woman. And what was interesting is you see cis women adopting one of two approaches. They either become extremely flirty and very girly or they become like real hard bitches and more blokey than the bloke sometimes. And I've talked to cis women about this and they talk freely. It's not the only thing to do.

[00:10:20] But it's really quite tricky for a trans woman because you don't want to be going down the blokey end because that conforms to all the stereotypes that you might have tried hard to get rid of. And it's actually quite hard to be naturally flirty and girly when you spend a lot of your time. Women have traditionally been forced to be those two tropes. It's the patriarchy that's forced. I wouldn't say women choose to do. It's because of the patriarchy. They're forced to. You're either patriotic and could probably agree to disagree slightly.

[00:10:52] I take your point on that. But I think it is something that trying to navigate those sort of understanding your own behavior and your own place when you've transitioned was particularly for me transitioning within the same employer. So I literally over one weekend was presenting and very differently than I had on the Friday.

[00:11:14] On the Monday, I was seemingly a different person with a different and trying to navigate that and trying to be that same person, but not be that same person. I did find those things quite tricky to navigate. And yeah, and I used to I don't know about you. I used humor a lot to put other people. I always felt about this. I was always trying to put other people at ease. So I would use humor to do that. And I sort of don't think I would now in the same way.

[00:11:41] I'd perhaps I'd try to brush things off. And because I felt absurd to a degree and always have felt absurd to a degree, I would maybe lean into that a little bit too much. Does that make sense? Absolutely. And I think and I think some of the things some of the things as well as that when you transition and I know this is a statement of the bleeding obvious. But when you transition for a lot of people, they think everything's going to.

[00:12:04] For example, I must admit, I was quite disappointed having done the deeds, done the paperwork, done everything, all that sort of stuff. And I look in the mirror, don't have a size 14 waist and figure. And I'm not a lovely five foot nine and with size six feet and all that sort of stuff. You have this sometimes you have this impression. I know you can work at having a more spelt traditionally cliched female shape and such. But for me and the way I've had to do it sometimes is just using shapewear.

[00:12:34] And the thing they don't tell you about shapewear, Jen, is that it's when you take it off. It's like being rolled into a sausage skin sometimes. And then you take it off. And let me just say, everything falls out. And stomach, back fat, everything. Oh, no, definitely. And it's that thing where you suffer. You suffer in the sense for the vanity of trying to fit in.

[00:13:02] And of course, when you talk to cis women, they say sometimes if they want to do that, they do the same sort of thing. And for whatever reason, it's something to do. You don't realise that cisgendered female clothing is quite uncomfortable. Shoes are incredibly delicate. And it takes a long time to get ready in the morning when you sometimes have a business meeting. I've got one soon coming up and it's 8.30 somewhere.

[00:13:26] I've now got to be up really early to actually get myself into a state where I can begin to be presentable that early in the morning. I have to say I'm not a morning person anyway. But you don't understand these things. And actually, part of it is initially with the euphoria bit, it doesn't feel like a long time. But when you've done your face for year after year, it actually, that charm loses its effect.

[00:13:53] Because, look, the reality is, I'm sure it's the same for you, but a lot of years have spent so many years in the closet not being able to be who I was. There was that joy of being able to look how I would like to look and put my face on and I relish that. But pretty soon, it does become that, particularly in the world of work, having to, for my mind, try not to wear the same. I certainly didn't want to wear the same thing every day.

[00:14:20] Putting that effort in on getting ready in the morning would take when my heart started growing longer and having to manage all that. I certainly, I suppose, it was a lot easier pre-transition when literally I could be out of the house in two, five minutes. There wasn't much I needed to do. And, yeah, it is that. And I certainly relate to wearing, wearing out, certainly in this weather, how hot it is. And in a sense, you refer to it as vanity, but it's as much as trying to fit in.

[00:14:47] Because until, certainly even before hormones kick in, your body changes somewhat with hormones, but not totally. And I am certainly, I've always been big. Actually, I've never minded being a big woman, really, because that's given me more curves just because I'm big, really, in some respects. But, no, I definitely relate to that. And I definitely got to some point of thinking, oh, God, I've got to put my face on again this morning. I'm running late.

[00:15:14] Or trying to do my mascara on the train and making a complete mess, because that's a fact. I wish somebody told me never try and do your mascara on the train, because it will look like a terrible mad panda at the end of it. Or just how in this weather, if you've got heavy makeup on, that many of us have to do a bit more than other women, because I need to put that effort in, because I don't feel confident if I don't.

[00:15:39] But wearing a full face of makeup in this weather is absolutely, if you listen to this in the middle of July in the UK, it's really hot right now, or it is for us anyway. It's not something I really thought about. But, yeah, yeah. Such is life. And I think it's good, because I think this is what annoys me about TERFs, because actually if there's a group of people more on the side of women's rights and being sympathetic to the needs and role of women, it's trans women. But anyway, we're staying lightweight today.

[00:16:09] So there's the makeup, there's the money, shoes. The first thing that is really funny is, I've always loved shoes, always loved shoes, always loved women's shoes, obviously. And the first thing you realise as a transgender woman is, my God, you want flat shoes. Not just because you're tall, but because heels are damned uncomfortable. Unless you have a nice comfy wedge. They're just, they're the work of Satan. Pointy shoes were heels. Oh, my God.

[00:16:35] The point that actually there are shoes that are for sitting down is something I never grasped. So there are, your best, your nicest looking shoes are sitting down shoes, right? Because they're not for walking very far. And I didn't wear heels a lot because I'm six foot, over six foot. But I did for work and there was times when it felt great in the morning. And then pretty soon by once an hour had gone, I was thinking, why the hell do you wear shoes?

[00:17:01] What I think is great for me now is that the fashion is women don't wear heels now. And that I feel much more able to fit in by just wearing flats or trainers. And that wasn't the case with a transition. It was still often expected that you would, that would be the sort of work wear in a sort of more office environment. So it is brilliant now that since I think COVID really, people have just gone, oh, why on earth are we torturing ourselves? Which I think is, I embrace that.

[00:17:29] I think that is absolutely brilliant for me. Yes. I remember years ago having a conversation, I can't remember why, but it doesn't really matter. I was having a conversation about underwired bras. And I was quite interested. Because of course, when you're talking to cisgendered women and you're trans, you're obviously not presenting that way because you haven't gone through a transition. You are genuinely interested in those things because actually they're part of the world you'd want to be in. And I remember them saying that they are another work of Satan. And oh my goodness, I made the mistake of buying one for myself once.

[00:17:59] Oh my goodness. I always wear underwire bras. Oh, I can't be doing that. I just have to get in from work in the evening if I have them on and throw it from one side of the work room to the other. I like a nice comfy bit of bra ridge. I've always gone for the underwire. But that is true, there is no pain like it when the underwire breaks and starts to dig into you. And that is extraordinarily painful, especially when you've just started on hormones and things are beginning to grow. Gosh, I remember that pain.

[00:18:27] But one of the things they obviously don't tell you, or you're aware of, but you don't realise the implication is, of course, having no pockets in most of your clothes. And it's improving now, I think.

[00:19:08] Of course, you do. Because I thought there's no way anybody's going to pick that pocket. There's no way anybody's going to nick that. So that was always my good tip. But they don't explain this when you transition and do this, if anybody explained anything to me. But yeah, yeah. It is interesting. You forget about it, don't you, after a while. You forget that life was different. I'll be honest with you, Jill. I struggle to remember. And it's just me. I really struggle to remember what pre-transition life was like.

[00:19:37] That's probably a good thing for me. I'm probably lucky at that. But I struggle to recall it in any sort of detail. Weird, isn't it? And that's another thing they don't tell you, that it's like when you've been married once and then you separate or whatever it is, divorce or whatever, and you get married a second time. It's very hard to remember the first time you're married. That bit of your life just seems to disappear. Yeah, I think, you know, I guess we move on and compartmentalize. I do have quite a strange memory and a slightly weird brain.

[00:20:05] So that is probably something of it. But yeah, you move on and it becomes. And that's what I've loved most is the fact it's become normal for me. I'm a woman at work and I'm a woman in the rest of my life. That's the thing that's been best for me. And so much that comfort that it's really weird, isn't it?

[00:20:27] It's hard to put your finger on what it is, that feeling that you actually are complete, that the software matches the hardware, your brain matches who you are. I should relish that more when I'm having bad days, really. Yeah. Yeah, I think we forget it. And I think it's that thing about you spend so much time agonizing, worrying and such like that. You forget. This is what we signed up for. And you sign up for the good bits, but also there are bad bits. But that's, I'm going to say that's life. And maybe that's maybe fatuous and a cliche.

[00:20:56] And maybe I need a good punch in the face, as they say in the trade. But it is true. We do sign up for both sides of it. And whichever gender you're in or transgender, it is, you know. No, that's right. Nobody, in my view, when I say nobody, you'll always find a less than 1%. But nobody does this on a whim. None of us do this because it's just, it is serious. And you do have to think of that. You do, there are brilliant highs, but also real challenges.

[00:21:25] And nobody, in my view, that I've met, has transitioned just because it felt trendy or just because it was, there's nobody does that. We all take it deadly serious because we've probably all agonized about it for so long. I don't know about you. It was similar for you. It was 35 years of waking up every day from the edge of 10, waking up every day thinking I'm a girl, but nobody, but I can't be because nobody says I am.

[00:21:52] And nobody can treat me that way through to being a 35-year-old woman and then suddenly finding I can do it. So we don't do that. Nobody does that lightly, do they? Yeah. I'm only 27 as we speak. Of course you are, yeah. I don't really know about that. I'll tell you what, I am going to have some more voice lessons. Remember when we did that lovely episode? Oh, you are. Excellent. And it is time I had to go. I'll tell you what I was doing. I was doing something online quite recently. And I suddenly for the first time noticed my voice. Yes, it is. I just noticed it for the first time.

[00:22:22] It is jarring. That's why I would struggle to listen back to the podcast. You do forget how, I do forget how I sound. I had, did I tell you I had speech and language therapy when I got food, when I went to the gender identity clinic back in the day. They referred me for it. And it was great. And the speech and language therapists were brilliant. I found it so exhausting. I can't concentrate on changing the way I speak. And I was a rubbish student. I wish I had. And I wish I could.

[00:22:50] And Laura, who did our podcast, who was a voice trainer, is amazing. So I wish I had somebody like Laura at the time. And I feel it's too late for me, Jill. I've probably given up. I think I'm not sure I've got it in me to actually change it in any great way. How I sound. It would be nicer. It would make my life easier. Yeah. I think it's things like answering the phone. Oh, gosh. Yes. That's the key. I don't think it matters much once you get into it.

[00:23:17] It's the beginnings of conversations, I think. And I'm conscious now of my voice being really low. No, I literally had somebody the other day on a Teams meeting. And they even had a virtual meeting. And I hadn't met them before. And they were coming to a meeting. And they were from another union. And I said, hi. I could see their name. He says, just like they did when I was on the radio once, you don't sound like a Jenny. I am. And I felt it was a bit silly of him.

[00:23:46] Because obviously trans people exist. So surely he must be aware of that by now. But fair do. And that's what happened to me once on the radio. The DJ said, you don't sound. The presenter said, you don't sound like a Jenny. And it's those times. And you write on the phone. You just have to explain to people when they misgender. Sorry, I'm trans. And usually they're absolutely fine with that. Yeah. Because I don't believe in those circumstances that I ever sound. I think I probably do speak more differently, Jill.

[00:24:14] I can't remember how I used to speak. I think I do speak slightly more feminine in my effect. But not great lately. Because on the way down today in the car, I was listening. And I know this is unusual. But I was listening to the Guardian football podcast. Wow. Okay. Because I'm getting. Because I have to spend this next day with a lot of cis men. So I was getting in the vibe and finding things to talk about.

[00:24:44] And I was listening to someone called Nicky Bandini. Now, Nicky Bandini has the most gorgeous, sumptuous, silky voice that I've ever heard. Yes. And turns out to be trans. And used to work. I like it. I love the way it says on the AI overview. Used previously worked under the name Paolo Bandini. So it's all out there. It's completely. It's quite interesting. Paolo Maldini was a famous footballer. Italian defender, was he? I can't remember. Midfielder.

[00:25:14] And that's now Nicky Bandini. What? That's Paolo Maldini. The famous Paolo Maldini. I believe so. To play for Italy. I believe so. Is that right? Okay. I'm surprised I haven't seen that. Okay. That's cool. Let me have a look. Is it the same person? It's same. Anyway, listen to them. I know the transgender. Hi, second. I am transgender. I wonder if there's more than one. It's probably a common name, is it? In Italy. Yes. I've written my last name under the name Paolo Bandini. If I want it, it would be Nicky.

[00:25:45] Okay. And there's a big, long conversation. But the point was, Nicky Bandini on this. Possibly it's not the same person. But let's just say that. Let's just pretend it is. Yeah. May not because of the age gap. But the point being that I can't remember now. But actually, it's a beautiful voice. And it is just a beautiful voice. But somehow, it's unmistakably female. But it's very deep. And it's actually really interesting, isn't it?

[00:26:12] That's a really, that's the thing that I think I've learned from. There are some amazing people who are. I've also seen some amazing people who are just cisgender men. If you do an amazing female voice, right? But I think, and there are, I think that's the mistake I made in thinking I've got to raise my voice pitch. And actually, it is more about the softness of your voice and how you express it rather than the pitch. I think the pitch is almost the last thing that is going to be needed.

[00:26:42] Because you're right, there's plenty of women with deeper voices. But they're unmistakably women. Because you can tell. You can tell that softness. And I think that's what I failed to do. Thinking I've got to raise my voice pitch and sound, I don't know. And it always felt jarring to me. And I cringed when I heard myself trying to do a female voice. Or what I saw as a typical female voice. And I couldn't get over the cringe factor for myself.

[00:27:08] It's interesting how we've gone from having a conversation which was very structured and very organised. It was going to be very lightweight. And it was going to be things we didn't know. The things we no one told us. And we seem to have roamed into voices. That is not nobody tells us that. Nobody tells you that. Nobody really tells you that you're going to have to, when you first transition, certainly if you transition later in life, that you're going to have to think about how you sound, how you move, how you sit. It's exhausting now.

[00:27:36] All the stuff that you've had been drilled into you for 35 years, or certainly in mine and how you're expected to present. It's never just about clothes. It's never just about clothes. They're the last bit. But yeah. Yeah, no. Listen, I still wouldn't. With all that, I still wouldn't have it any other way. Still wouldn't, Jill. Good. And on that positive note, Jenny, I'll let you go back to your rubber duck and your hat and enjoy the rest of your evening, whatever it is. I will try my best.

[00:28:06] And you look after yourself, Jill. I wasn't seeing if you had particular shoes on, but another time. I haven't shown you my feet. You have to pay extra for that. Thanks for listening to this episode of Transvox. It's been a joy to have you with us. If you want to make contact with us, you can contact us at Jillian at transvox.co.uk. And all of our money goes to our nominated charity.

[00:28:34] And Jen, you've chosen the charity for the next number of episodes. Which one have you chosen? Our charity is called Beyond Reflections, which is a charity that provides support and counselling to trans people, non-binary people, and their friends and their families across the UK. An amazing charity doing some amazing work. Really important. So please, if you can give. Great. And if you want to go and have a look at Beyond Reflections, it's beyond-reflections.org.uk. But as I say,

[00:29:03] if you'd like to make a contribution to what we're doing, because we love to help the people who help us. Again, if you've got ideas for the show, things you'd like to ask us, questions, comments, applause, or brickbaths, feel free to send it all in to Jillian at transvox.co.uk. Until the next time, goodbye. Bye-bye.